by Nancy Calabrese | Jun 24, 2023 | Podcast
About Mike Montague: Mike Montague is the Director of Community Engagement and a Certified Trainer at Sandler, where he hosts the How to Succeed podcast, Sandler Summit, and other live events. He is also the author of LinkedIn The Sandler Way and numerous courses and content on sales and leadership. In addition, Mike is a podcaster at Playful Humans, a community designed to help the burned-out and bored get re-energized and engaged with life. He is a contributing writer on the Sandler blog and many other international publications, including the Thinking Bigger Business, Hubspot, and LinkedIn sales blogs. Also, he has entertained and educated thousands of audiences as a professional speaker, on-air radio personality for Mix 93.3 and 105.1 JACK FM, and MC for other live events. Mike has also been an opening act for Billy Idol and Frankie Valli as a DJ and was named one of Kansas City’s Rising Stars of Business in 2015. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Mike.
In this episode, Nancy and Mike discuss the following:
- Communication is the key in Sandler.
- OK, Not OK principles in sales.
- Social selling and social media marketing.
- Advantages of back-and-forth conversation over blasting messages on social media.
- Social selling definition and purpose.
- Fewer connections lead to more conversations.
- Playful Humans – a space for happy people.
- Why salespeople should be happy to be productive?
Key Takeaways:
- I fell in love with the communication principles and people deserve respect, and it should be an adult-to-adult conversation, and learning how to be an adult in a conversational selling kind of way with Sandler was really a cool experience for me.
- Social selling is just adding people’s information and opportunities to your pipeline by using any type of sales or social media platform.
- From a marketing perspective the more connections you have on LinkedIn, the better, the wider your reach, but from a sales perspective, it’s actually the deep relationships that matter.
- We forget that happy people do more work.
- The harder you try to sell, the less likely you are to get that.
“So as human beings, we can only keep track of about 150 to 250 relationships at any given time, we just don’t have the bandwidth. And it’s an interesting number. It’s through a lot of scientific research. It goes back to even when humans were in tribes, wandering the planes and stuff. It was like at about 150, you see them start to split off because you just can’t know everybody, and you can’t keep close to relationships with that many people. So, what happens with salespeople is… They start getting weaker relationships. They start chasing weaker deals and they start missing things from their ideal clients because they’re not paying attention to them. ” – MIKE
“It is interesting to me that when you take yourself and your work less seriously, you can become more productive. People equate hard work with success. And I don’t think that’s true. It depends on the work you’re doing. If you’re building a deck or a brick wall – sure. The more work you do, the higher the wall is going to get, but in selling, that’s not true. And selling the harder you try to sell, the less likely you are to get that. ” – MIKE
“Do not be afraid to be yourself. So, whether that’s in sales, in social selling with LinkedIn, or the kind of personal branding and play work that I do with Playful Humans, I think we try to fit in often too. And that makes us boring and the same as everybody else. That is when you embrace your weirdness and your silliness and your personality, and then go find people that want that rather than trying to make yourself into something that other people want. I think that’s a really powerful lesson.” – MIKE
Connect with Mike Montague:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today, and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Mike Montague, Director of Community Engagement for Sandler Training, an international sales training and consulting organization headquartered in the United States. He is the co-author of LinkedIn The Sandler Way and a contributing writer on the Sandler blog and many other international publications Mike has entertained and educated over 3,000 audiences live and virtually over his career. He hosts The Sandler Summit, and his popular How to Succeed podcast has over three million downloads. And Mike, I was just saying before we jumped on, I attend all the Sandler summits. You do an amazing job. Welcome to the show. [1:17]
Mike Montague: Oh, thank you so much. Great to be here, Nancy. I’m excited to have a conversation with you. And the summits are definitely one of my favorite weeks of the year. It’s like Christmas for me. I get to be on stage in front of a thousand people and do all kinds of crazy shenanigans. If you’ve been to all of them, you’ve seen my time travel and do wigs and costumes. I’ve done magic tricks with Dave, all kinds of stuff on stage there.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, you should have been an actor with all the different things you do. And he’s an amazing, amazing entertainer. So, I want to open up just about Sandler in general. I’m a big fan. We followed Sandler for many, many years. And in my mind, it’s all about communication and how communication is so important in sales. Can you comment on that?
Mike Montague: Yeah, I think that’s what I fell in love with too. My dad became a Sandler trainer when I was a junior in high school. So, like 28 years ago now, and I took, the foundation’s, you know, selling course when I was 16 years old and didn’t have anything to sell. So, I fell in love with the communication principles and then the personal development, the eyesight and the attitude and the beliefs that. You know, people deserve respect, and it should be an adult-to-adult conversation, and learning how to be an adult in a conversational selling kind of way with Sandler was really a cool experience for me. So, I lean on that a lot too. I think the communication skills bonding and rapport and we talk about DISC personality profiles and OK, Not OK is a big one for me. I don’t know if you’ve ever had anybody talk about that on the show, but that was life-changing for me. [3:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, I think the one thing that comes to my mind, Sandler is all about equal stature, right?
Mike Montague: Yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: What we do is just as important as what the prospect does. And when you have that mindset, it really helps you, you know, navigate through the conversations.
Mike Montague: Well, not only that, but I also think it goes right to the, OK, Not OK principles too. So, if you’re not familiar, there was a book that came out in the 60s called I’m Okay, You’re Okay. And that’s that adult-to-adult conversation that you’re talking about. So, a lot of times, whether it’s a child to parent or it’s a salesperson to the leader, we tend to be subservient. We tend to, you know, want to get the deal and we, we do things that aren’t in our best interests. And we even position ourselves intentionally as a servant in that relationship, rather than being that adult with equal business stature and a highly paid consultant who is helping them solve challenges. And that’s interesting to me.
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. So, let’s talk about your book, LinkedIn The Sandler Way. You’re all about, and you’re very involved in, say, social selling, and social media marketing, but you feel that there are two different things. Can you explain that? [4:28]
Mike Montague: Yeah, I think, especially when I wrote the book, it’s eight years old now, but I intentionally wrote it to be evergreen because I think there is this dichotomy between social media marketing and what most social media sites have become. It was already starting there eight years ago where people were jumping on LinkedIn and they’re saying, we need to build an audience. You need to join 50 groups. You need to get, you know, 500 contacts as fast as possible. You need to get as large. an audience as possible and then blast messages in your posts and hope that someday somebody buys from you.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Mike Montague: But what I found is that’s a marketing approach, right? That’s a one-to-many blast of a message for brand awareness. And some of those strategies are not bad. If you’re the brand ambassador, like I am for Sandler, or the CEO, David Madsen, those approaches are pretty good. But we have over 500 trainers. We can’t really all be subject matter experts and brand ambassadors for what we’re doing. A lot of the time, salespeople that I’ve trained like Uber or Thermo Fisher Scientific, have thousands of salespeople around the world. What I wanted to talk about was, what we do in a sales conversation with social media. So how can we add more people, information, and opportunities to our pipeline and turn it into a one-to-one communication and a back-and-forth conversation rather than blasting messages? And I found that to be really a lot more powerful. [6:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, you know, the one thing that I realized, so you know my business is all about appointment setting and cold calling. And one of the advantages of actually speaking with people is we can uncover what their pains are, right, in a call. And I have found, and I do use LinkedIn, you know, Navigator, and you know, we do get appointments, but I don’t often know if their pain is deep enough for them to want to make a move today. Do you find that? Do you have a lot of meet-and-greets versus serious contenders?
Mike Montague: You know, that’s interesting. It can happen certainly when you’re doing cold outreach because that person, you know, is sort of a stranger. You’re not doing a whole lot of qualification, maybe whatever you can find online, and certainly the AI tools and data you can get now are better than ever from their side. Uh, and the same thing back to you. They may just be trying to qualify you and so early, you’re not going to have a whole ton of really great success, but I think social media when you start conversations, there are two ways that I look at it. One is getting referrals out of those conversations. I just want to meet cool people. I want to have a conversation like we are here today. And if there’s something that happens, then great. We keep it moving. If not, maybe they can introduce me to somebody in their network that would be a better fit for that. And not putting a lot of pressure on it. And then the second thing I would say is really going heavy on that qualification, that I should be using all my tools and insights and my Sandler questioning skills to dive deep into that conversation and see if there’s anything there. Sometimes people only have surface-level pains, and you have to help them uncover them, or they haven’t recognized them yet, they have unrecognized pains that are not quite ripe yet, right? They’re below the surface, and we need to go deeper on those. [8:04]
Nancy Calabrese: So social selling, what’s your definition of that?
Mike Montague: For me, it’s what I said earlier, just adding people information and opportunities to your pipeline by using any type of sales or social media platform. So, apps and things these days get wide. That includes a whole lot of other stuff. There are some really great like I mentioned, AI tools like Humantic AI, which will give you their disk profile before you even call them and stuff. That’s adding information to your pipeline and selling in a way that.
Nancy Calabrese: Absolutely. Yeah, by the way, I used Humantic, but I forgot what your DISC profile is tool. I know that Dave Mattson is what a CD.
Mike Montague: Yeah, yeah, he’s definitely on the task-oriented side. I’m on the people-oriented side. So, we make a good team.
Nancy Calabrese: You’re on the people’s side. I’m a DI, so I think I have more I in me than I do D. Okay, so moving along, you shared with me that you believe fewer connections lead to more conversations. Why is that? [9:17]
Mike Montague: This was an interesting insight because I don’t think people realize, they think again on the marketing approach that the more connections you have on LinkedIn, the better, the wider your reaches. And from a marketing perspective or advertising, that’s true. But from a sales perspective, it’s actually the deep relationships that matter. So as human beings, we can only keep track of about 150 to 250 relationships at any given time, we just don’t have the bandwidth. And it’s an interesting number. It’s through a lot of scientific research. It goes back to even when humans were in tribes, wandering the planes and stuff. It was like at about 150, you see them start to split off because you just can’t know everybody, and you can’t keep close to relationships with that many people. So, what happens with salespeople is… They start getting weaker relationships. They start chasing weaker deals and they start missing things from their ideal clients because they’re not paying attention to them. [10:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Mike Montague: So, if you can create a diverse network, you want that 150 to be as wide-ranging as possible because then you’re getting more, you know information and you’re getting more opportunities from a wider range of people. If I only had 150, I don’t know, uh, franchise brokers or whatever in my profile. I’m only going to hear about stories and news posts and things that are happening in the franchise world. But if I have 150 random people that are different ages and interests and religions or countries or work industries and, uh, jobs, you know, some people are frontline, some people are CEO and executives, but I really know. And I follow all 150 of them. I’m going to get a ton of information. I’m going to hear about opportunities. I wouldn’t have if I was just, you know, randomly scrolling through a thousand people’s posts.
Nancy Calabrese: You know, I totally agree with you because very often when we are prospecting for One of a Kind Sales, I speak with decision makers that think they have to have millions of contacts. And there’s just no way to have a system in place to touch them, right, throughout the year on a regular basis. So, I’m in your court, you know, less is more for sure. [11:40] Now, I do want to move into what I…
Mike Montague: Yeah, it really gets expensive and there’s a whole lot of other downsides too, right? Then the algorithm starts choosing for you whom it wants you to pay attention to rather than you choosing whom you’re following.
Nancy Calabrese: So everyone out there, you’ve got to go check playfulhumans.com. It’s a dot com, Mike?
Mike Montague: Yeah, you got it.
Nancy Calabrese: It’s an amazing website. And I’m going to quote something that I read, and I want you to describe it in more detail. You quoted “Harvard Business Review that stated, happy people are 31% more productive and have 37% higher sales. But the flip side to that, is high-stress cultures make employees 10 to 15 IQ points dumber”. So, what made you create this company and why does it work so well? [12:40]
Mike Montague: I love you. Yeah. Uh, thank you for sharing that. It’s so great. Um, this is my side project, and it just makes me, um, makes me happy with something that I, it was a COVID baby for me. And I’ve always been playful. I was an entertainer and DJ in my younger days and, got to do fun things like open for Billy Idol and Frankie Valley. And so, I always had this playful side of things. And what I found in corporate cultures a lot is that, especially with the measurement, culture we have these days that people are stressing each other the heck out. And even with technology and all the great advances, and tools that can help us sell more, sometimes they make it worse because we start overthinking it. And so, when we’re stressed out, we settle on one right answer that will allow us to survive the situation. And what we don’t often settle on is the most creative and innovative solution that’ll get the best outcome long term. And so, our creativity goes down and our communication skills go down. I want to get stressed out, but even having your cell phone in the room makes you 10% dumber because you outsource your brain to the phone. You go “Oh, I don’t have to know this. I can Google it”. Right? [13:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Mike Montague: And so all these technologies, and sometimes it even happens in the Sandler training. I’ll be honest with you. You know, when you first learn about the pain funnel, your kind of do it like a robot. You forget how you were supposed to sell you know, the week before, and now you’re trying to do all these new moves. And it can hurt you a little bit. And we really work hard with people to practice, and role play in the classroom. And then just be themselves, let all this soak in, and just sell the way that you know how to sell and look for some of these opportunities to leverage a really good idea, a really good technique. But if you try and do everything all the time, you get in your head, and it just causes a lot more problems than it does.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, one thing that’s so important in my culture is we’ve got to have fun. You know, my people work so hard and they’re in No business, right? Most salespeople are in a No business, right? And you must flip that. Well, I’m getting closer to my yes. And I think humor, and fun games, just keep everyone fresh and motivated to want to do it one more time and maybe get that next no, but they keep doing it, you know? [15:09]
Mike Montague: Yeah, well, it’s funny, right? It’s so obvious, but we forget that happy people do more work, happy people repeat things. So, whether that’s your employees and the job they’re doing, or your customers, customers that enjoy a happy salesperson and experience refer more people than clients that were stressed out and that you stressed out because you were having a bad day or whatever. So, it’s blatantly obvious to me. But we forget it so much when we’re trying to charge for numbers or we’re getting beat down by those Nos. We forget that like having fun when you smile more, it’s contagious. People join in on that and then you get referrals, and you get better outcomes and people love working.
Nancy Calabrese: Isn’t it true it takes fewer muscles to smile than it is to frown?
Mike Montague: I always like that one. I think it’s true. Yeah, I’ll buy that biologically.
Nancy Calabrese: I think it’s true too, you’re making me smile. Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Mike Montague: Oh, I feel like I have a bunch of these from playful humans. But I think the thing that is interesting to me is when you take yourself and your work less seriously, you can become more productive. People equate hard work with success. And I don’t think that’s true. It depends on the work you’re doing. If you’re You know, building a deck or a brick wall. Sure. The more work you do, the higher the wall is going to get, but in selling, that’s not true. And selling the harder you try to sell, the less likely you are to get that. [16:50]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh yeah. Yeah, just as we’ve been talking, have fun with it. Understand their communication style, which really is what Sandler is all about, right? Becoming an actor, which obviously is common for you or easy for you, Mike, but you become actors, right? Depending on the person that we’re speaking with. You wanna match their style.
Mike Montague: It is largely a Broadway play and we’re just kind of the producers here. And if we have fun and we realized that we got a lot of different players in this role, um, we can have fun with it. We can be a third party to it. We cannot take it personally and, uh, we can experiment, have fun.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, we’re almost up with time. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Mike Montague: I think it’s also not being afraid to be yourself. So, whether that’s in sales, it’s in social selling with LinkedIn, or the kind of personal branding and play work that I do with Playful Humans, I think we try to fit in often too. And that makes us boring and the same as everybody else. That is when you embrace your weirdness and your silliness and your personality, and then go find people that want that rather than trying to make yourself into something that other people want. I think that’s a really powerful lesson.
Nancy Calabrese: So basically Mike, what you’re saying is go find other weird people like yourself. You’re so funny. So how come my people find you?
Mike Montague: Go to Sandler.com and subscribe to the How to Succeed podcast anywhere you’re listening to this. It’s a great show. We talked to salespeople and sales leaders about how to succeed and then playful humans, playfulhumans.com. There’s a fun quiz on there where you can do a personality quiz and find out maybe some better ways to incorporate play into your life and then reach out to me on LinkedIn. I’d always love to connect. [18:44]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. So, a huge thank you for joining me. I know I’m the second of your third podcast today. You sounded fresh and I’m sure you’re going to do a great job on the next one. But I hope you’ll come back sometime and, you know, make us all laugh. Maybe we’ll just focus on the playful humans. How does that sound?
Mike Montague: Uh, that sounds great. I would love to play a game next time or tell you a good joke too. That’d be fun.
Nancy Calabrese: Yes. All right. So, everyone take advantage and reach out to Mike. He’s full of wisdom. He’s a lot of fun and his insights are spot-on when it comes to sales. So, until we speak again, have a great sales day. [19:35]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jun 20, 2023 | Podcast
About David H. Mattson: Dave Mattson is the CEO and President of Sandler Training, a global training organization with more than three decades of experience in providing training to companies of all sizes throughout the world. His key areas of focus are sales leadership, strategy, and client satisfaction. Since joining Sandler in 1988, Mr. Mattson has guided the firm to its position as a global provider of sales and management training with over 250 operating units in 25 countries. Under his leadership, the company has also been recognized four times in the Top 20 Sales Training Companies by TrainingIndustry.com, and nine times by Entrepreneur magazine’s “Franchise 500” as the number-one sales training company in the United States. He is a best-selling author, sales, and management thought leader, keynote speaker, and leader for sales training seminars around the world. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Dave.
In this episode, Nancy and Dave discuss the following:
- Why Sandler is so successful.
- Script and its function is Sandler world.
- Applying Sandler tips and tricks in personal interactions.
- How one can quickly size up his/her prospect’s communication style.
- The connection between DISC and Sandler Methodology.
- Sandler methodology in a college curriculum.
- Sandler Rules for Salespeople and for Sales Leaders.
Key Takeaways:
- Sandler Methodology is a conversational sales model that allows you to insert your own personality, your knowledge of your own client base, and what you’re selling.
- The success triangle is behavior, technique, and attitude.
- Salespeople get paid to change the way they communicate. Buyers do not get paid to change the way they buy.
- The buyers just want to know if you understand their issue. They want to feel comfortable and trust that you do understand and have a solution.
- The top pros get rejected 80% of the time. So, it’s the norm.
“Good salespeople are like doctors. The doctor comes in and they’re super smart, but they say “Nancy, why’d you come in today? Tell me a little bit about the problem that you’re experiencing”. They ask questions, right? The value of a salesperson is determined by the information you gather not dispense. If you think about that. Because of that, if I use the doctor analogy if I were to go in, the other doctor doesn’t do that. They say “Nancy, thanks for coming in today. Hey, before you say a word, let me show you, my diplomas. Let me tell you about the universe that I went through. And I am at the top of my class. Let me show you the tools that I use when I operate”. And I do this data dump and you’re like, who cares? Let me tell you about me because people want to tell you about their problems, right? And I think that’s the difference and its maturity that happens that way.” – DAVE
“So, we have rules for salespeople, and we have rules for sales leaders. And again, I go back to, you can read a 400-page book on selling. Or what we’ve done is we’ve said, look, again, Sandler teaches the way to think, not necessarily what to say. So, if you have things like, there are quick rules, like don’t spill your candy in the lobby, all that simply means is go in and seek to understand. So, they’re catchy phrases, so you’ll remember them, but they apply to so many different scenarios in a selling situation versus a script that fits into one particular area. ” – DAVE
“First of all, no one wants to be rejected. If we even go back to, you know, and I’ll age myself here. We had school dances, you know, did I want somebody to hold up a sign and say Dave, please come ask me to dance? Yeah, because I was afraid to go over there and say, would you dance with me? Because I didn’t want to be rejected, you know?.” – DAVE
Connect with David Mattson:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what is going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with David Mattson, CEO and President of Sandler Training, the world’s leader in innovative sales, leadership, and management training. Sandler works with companies of all sizes, and their clients include Salesforce, AT&T, Oracle, Microsoft, and Bank of America. Now Dave is recognized as one of the world’s leading experts in sales and leadership and contributing to books, blogs, podcasts, conferences, roundtables, and research around the globe and he oversees the corporate direction and strategy for the company’s global operations. His key areas of focus are sales leadership, strategy, and client satisfaction. So, all of you listeners know we are huge fans of Sandler methodology. So, welcome to the show, Dave! [01:26]
David Mattson: Thank you, Nancy. Thanks for having me.
Nancy Calabrese: So excited. So, for those that are unfamiliar with Sandler, describe the methodology and why it’s so successful.
David Mattson: Wow, that’s a loaded question. So, I’ll do the best that I can. One, it’s a conversational sales model that allows you to insert your own personality, your knowledge of your own client base, and what you’re selling from a cultural perspective and a geography perspective. What it’s not, Nancy, is a lot of scripts where you have to learn a script and then become somebody that you’re not. I mean, I remember when I first went into sales, I learned a lot of scripts. They seemed plausible to me, to be honest with you, until I was in front of a live person, and they didn’t have the other side of the script. So, I was doing my part, but they didn’t respond in the way they should have according to the script, and I didn’t know what to say after that. So, Sandler is built on a set of principles, a set of rules, where David Sandler didn’t teach you what to say specifically, he taught you how to think. [02:38] So, if you’re in this situation, think about it this way, and then of course he would help you with some words, but really whatever came naturally under that scenario would work, like spelling, right? I before E, except after C, the same type of thing. And I think the other thing that makes Sandler different is that we work on three different areas. So, when we teach something, let’s just say it’s cold calling for the sake of the discussion. We’re going to teach you great tactics and strategies, so good technique. But we also say, let’s talk about behavior and attitude. So, we have something, Nancy, called: the success triangle, which is behavior, technique, and attitude. And so, we’ll give you great things to say, but here’s how you must think about it. So, here’s the mindset. Have equal business stature. You will be rejected. It’s okay. Look for five Nos and then celebrate the Yes versus being depressed by the Nos that you get as an example. [03:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Great.
David Mattson: And then I’m from a behavioral perspective. It’s, you know, okay, so I’ve got the right mindset and I know what to say, but how often should I be doing it? And it really helps them create a well-rounded business where we’re saying, this is what you say, here’s how often you should be doing it, and here’s how you should think about it. And that trifecta of those three things has really propelled me people’s success is much higher than just learning the words but never doing it. Does that make sense?
Nancy Calabrese: It does, but I want to tap on something you just said earlier about you don’t believe in scripting. And I think as a starting point, you need a script. I mean, we work off a script, but it comes into our heads. So, the script goes away once you digest it and own it. What do you have to say about that? [04:29]
David Mattson: I agree. I think people get confused though about the transition between knowing it and then owning your own words, right?
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: So, you know, I, for instance, think you should take a script and say it out loud six times. It goes, you know, psychologically, it goes from, you know, you, it’s somebody else’s words to your words.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: And what you’ll find is people are hyperventilated about, oh, that’s not the exact word I should have used in the second paragraph. Who cares?
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: You know, it’s more of being natural. You know, focus on your buyer, respond to them and whatever comes out of your mouth, then it comes out of your mouth, but practice ahead of time. So, I’m a huge believer, Nancy, in talk tracks, right? So, what’s your 30-second commercial? What are your top five questions? I think you should have those just right in your hip pocket, comes off the top of your tongue, no problem. So, I’m not thinking about what’s Nancy going to ask. Oh, how would I respond to this question? I don’t think, you know, I think that’s unnatural. So, when I do, I do agree. I think you should have talk tracks. I think you should have a baseline, but I think you should personalize them. And then when you’re in the heat of it, just do what’s natural. [05:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, totally agree. And you know, what I’ve learned in all the years that I’ve studied Sandler, it’s a differentiator in communication, which really helps the sales conversation. But it also applies to personal interactions, which is cool. Would you agree?
David Mattson: Yeah, it’s amazing. So, I hear three things, Nancy, when I talk to clients, right? One is I wish I met Sandler 15 years ago, would it change the trajectory of my, you know, my professional career, which is always flattering? Second, I use this in my personal life as much as I use it in my professional life. Because if you think about selling, it’s really communication, right? It’s just people. We’re in the people business as you are in your personal life. And the third thing they say is, I wish my kids could go through this now, so they don’t have to go through the 10 years of pain that it took me to figure out what works and what doesn’t work in sales. [06:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Great.
David Mattson: And I always thought that was the greatest compliment. But to your point, if you’re doing sales right, it should be transparent and it should be something that you’re using all the time in all aspects of your life.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, I totally agree. And it’s really fun when you apply it to your family.
David Mattson: Yeah, it really is.
Nancy Calabrese: I get my daughter to do things. And I want to dive into this a bit, but she’s an S and I’m a D. So, when I communicate with her, I have to be deliberately different. And kind of that segue, I know that we talk about the four different communication styles. And maybe you can speak to that. How can you quickly size up your prospect’s communication style?
David Mattson: Well, I think the first thing you must do is listen. I think most of the time we’re going in worried about what I’m doing as a seller, what I’m thinking about as the seller, and what I’m going to say as the seller, and we miss all the signals. Because it’s always about me, me, me. And good sellers should be about you, you, you. I think the second thing that we should do is to learn who you are as a seller. I know, for instance, that using a disk language, I’m a D/C. So, I stay at 30,000 feet, I want to move quickly. I don’t want to dig into the details unless I ask you. You know, I’m very protective. In my mind, I probably stop listening, you know, X number of minutes into the conversation because I already in my head know where it’s going. Completely wrong, by the way, it doesn’t matter. But, you know, I’ve been taught it’s impolite to cut you off. So, I listen, but in my head I’m like, yeah, okay, I get it. And then the C kicks in, which is the analytical side. So… [08:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: And I’m happy to give you all the characteristics. But I think when you first meet somebody, one of the things that I say, Nancy, is “Look, I appreciate you seeing me today. I know we only have about 45 minutes. A lot to cover. Would you like me to spend a little time telling you about the company or kind of dig right into some of the things that we’re doing in the industry and the problems that we type solve?” And you kind of lead me. No, tell me about your company. How did you guys start? Well, that’s a personality type that would ask me that me a high D, I don’t care. I would just suspect you’re going to tell me that you’re awesome. You’re great. You’re the number one. You have awesome service. You know, I don’t expect you to say “Hey, Dave, before we start today, let me tell you a bit about us. We have, we’re terrible at service. I mean, we’re just not so good at that. You know, we’re going to discount the price here.” So, I just, you know, I’d like to hear the big picture. I’d like you to engage me quickly in a conversation. [09:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: So, I think if you listen to my communication style and if you listen to the questions that I ask, you know, if I send you an email, Nancy, it’s bulleted, it’s short. I don’t do a lot of salutation, which is, you know, people take us rude, and quite frankly, I don’t mean it to be that way. So, to your point, when you talk to your daughter, I’ve got to adjust. And here’s the key, salespeople get paid to change the way they communicate. Buyers do not get paid to change the way they buy. So, we have to be flexible as sellers.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, for many people out there in sales, and I learned this years ago, I mean, they’re trained in features and benefits, which is contrary to Sandler methodology. How long does it typically take a sales professional to change into consultative selling? And why is it challenging for them? [10:17]
David Mattson: I think it’s challenging in a couple of different ways. One is, I think, we’ve learned our product knowledge and we haven’t really learned how to ask open-ended questions because it’s high risk. Because I don’t know your answer. I don’t know, I don’t feel 100% comfortable that I know every single piece of information about my product and service. So, I would like to spew my product knowledge. It gives me confidence and conviction. And I feel good about that because that’s what I was taught by my company versus “You know, Nancy, I got a lot to cover here today. Just out of curiosity, what are the two or three things you want to ask me today? And I’ll make sure I cover those”. Now I, that’s high risk for people who like, well, I don’t know what she’s going to ask me. I mean, how would I, how would I do that? And I think that’s one, right? So, it’s that insecurity. It’s that I was taught product knowledge. The second, I think thing that goes on is really ego. What I mean by that is I feel good about being the expert in the product, right? But really that doesn’t solve it. If you think about doctors and good salespeople are doctors. The doctor comes in and they’re super smart, but they say “Nancy, why’d you come in today? Tell me a little bit about the problem that you’re experiencing”. They ask questions, right? [11:41] The value of a salesperson is determined by the information you gather not dispense, right? If you think about that. Because of that, if I use the doctor analogy if I were to go in, the other doctor doesn’t do that. They say, Nancy, thanks for coming in today. Hey, before you say a word, let me show you, my diplomas. Let me tell you about the universe that I went through. And I am at the top of my class. Let me show you the tools that I use when I operate. And I do this data dump and you’re like, who cares? Let me tell you about me because people want to tell you about their problems, right? And I think that’s the difference and its maturity that happens that way. But I think if you’re taught, certainly we teach that in Sandler, I think you can do that a lot faster, a lot easier without the 20 years of pain to learn, ask questions, don’t go in with a preconceived idea, seek to understand all the things that you’ve heard as you grew up. The one-liners, I think, you know, we all know what they are, they all apply to sales. And I think that’s some of the things that we have challenges on. [12:42]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, going back to what you stated that many of your clients wish they put their kids through Sandler early on, I’m also in that court. And I know recently you’ve become part of the college curriculum. Is that correct?
David Mattson: Yeah, so we have a couple of dozen universities using Sandler. I know the MBA program at Harvard, I mean, lots of them are using Sandler in lots of different ways. One is, you know, they’re teaching Sandler, which is great. Others are doing bronze certification where we’re certifying college students that they understand the Sandler methodology. And of course, we help them get jobs. [13:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Yup.
David Mattson: But think about the profession of sales, Nancy. I mean are more people in sales than in any other profession. It’s the highest-paid profession, but until recently, and I would even argue still today, it’s being treated when you don’t get a job anywhere else, there’s always sales. I mean, really, it’s the last stop before total unemployment. And in reality, you know, I’m going to college for an engineering degree or an architectural degree when in, you know 8 out of 10 of us are going to go into sales, why wouldn’t we learn that skill? And I think that’s really where people are starting to catch up over the last 10 years.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, you know, I say this to everyone. Everyone is in sales.
David Mattson: Right.
Nancy Calabrese: They may not like to admit it, but when they want to persuade their partner to go to a movie, that’s selling, right?
David Mattson: Yes.
Nancy Calabrese: Same thing, you know, in business. Dave Trapani is our Sandler trainer, and we’ve worked with him for many years, and he and I have a podcast where we talk about the Sandler rules in like four minutes and less, and we love it. So, we each give our own definition of what a rule means. But maybe you can describe them to the audience. And I think Dave told me they’ve recently changed. [14:41]
David Mattson: So, we have rules for salespeople, and we have rules for sales leaders. And again, I go back to, you can read a 400-page book on selling. Or what we’ve done is we’ve said, look, again, Sandler teaches the way to think, not necessarily what to say. So, if you have things like, there are quick rules, like don’t spill your candy in the lobby, all that simply means is go in and seek to understand. So, they’re catchy phrases, so you’ll remember them, but they apply to so many different scenarios in a selling situation versus a script that fits into one particular area. So when you learn the rule, if I were to say, okay, instead of just showing up and throwing up product knowledge, why, which is spilling your candy everywhere, like, hey, thanks for inviting me in. Hey, do you have a… I’d love to show you, my deck. I’ve got 700 slides. You’re going to love it, Nancy. You’re really going to love it. Let me give you some Velcro to strap yourself in case you fall asleep. Then I’m off and running, right? This is, hey, look, why don’t we find out some of the challenges? Because the buyer just wants to know, do you understand my issue? I feel comfortable that I trust that you do understand and that you do have a solution. [16:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: And I think that’s where, so that rule as an example would help me, whether it’s a new person enters in a sales call midstream, and I’ve got to go backward in time, whether it’s a first call, it happens in a lot of different scenarios. And I think then that really helps their page and a half, you know, each rule, it gives you a lot to think about. You can use it in your personal life. You could use it in your professional life. And we, again, have them for sales and we have them for leaders. Now what Dave was talking about is that the buyer journey has changed dramatically. We’ve just updated some of the rules as we go along just to make them more relevant. But Nancy, the rules that you and I have gone through since the beginning of time, they’re still there because quite frankly, yes, the buyer journey has changed, but conversational selling really hasn’t changed that much if we’re being honest with each other. [16:54]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So, I opened the program. It’s all about human conversation. And it amazes me how many people hide behind social media emailing. And they are horrified by picking up a phone and having a conversation with a stranger. I just don’t get that. And in all that. And I’ll share this with you, you know, in the weekly mastery classes, and we have some great sales professionals, I would say 99% of them hate picking up the phone to make the cold call. I don’t get it.
David Mattson: Yeah. Well, I mean, if you think about it, first of all, no one wants to be rejected. If we even go back to, you know, and I’ll age myself here. We had school dances, you know, did I want somebody to hold up a sign and say Dave, please come ask me to dance? Yeah, because I was afraid to go over there and say, would you dance with me? Because I didn’t want to be rejected, you know? [17:50]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: So that’s certainly there. And I think, you know, my parents, God bless them destroyed me as a salesperson to a certain extent because we had rules growing up to be, to protect me. It’s like, don’t talk about money. That’s rude. Don’t speak unless spoken to. Don’t talk to strangers. Respect your elders. And now I go into sales. I’ve got to talk about money as quickly as possible. I’ve got to talk to strangers. And I’ve got to have equal business stature to somebody who’s twice my age and makes twice the amount of money. And I’m like, wow, the first 18 years of my life, I was told not to do that. And now I’m pushed into this thing, not realizing that, hey, you know what? The top pros get rejected 80% of the time. So, it’s the norm. It’s the norm. But I feel like a loser when I hear a no versus, OK, some do, some don’t. Let’s move on. It’s OK. [18:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: And I just didn’t grow up that way.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Yep. I totally agree with you. You must take the personal out of it. And it’s just a business conversation and move on and don’t dwell on those that are, you know, just not making the decision. I see that a lot. I can’t believe we’re up in time and I could go on forever. How can my audience find you?
David Mattson: Well, you can certainly connect with me on LinkedIn. You can go to Sandler.com and find us and, Nancy, if any of your listeners want to jump in on one of Dave’s programs, I’m sure we can work that out as my guest, you know, sit in, and really experience what you’ve experienced over the years and 50,000 other people each year. That’s how many we train experience are welcome to participate as my guest. Happy to do it.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, wonderful. Well, we’re going to take you up on that for sure. So, a huge thank you. I’ve been looking forward to this for a long time, especially when I saw you at the summit.
David Mattson: I know it’s awesome.
Nancy Calabrese: And by the way, why don’t you promote the summit before we wrap up? [19:52]
David Mattson: Yeah, so each year in March, and you certainly can find all the information on our website, we have, you know, whatever it is, 1,100 clients and people who know Sandler, who are just learning about Sandler come down to Florida and we have two days of just rock and sock them programs for salespeople and for leaders. So, you can pick and choose three or four different programs happening every single hour. And it’s just amazing. Thanks for all your support. I see you there year after year.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, and I have to tell for all of the seasoned salespeople out there, it never gets old. Never, ever. You always walk away with a nugget or two and even maybe some new business. So, again, a huge thank you, and everyone take advantage of getting to know this guy. He’s great. He’s a straight shooter. Now, a D/C combo is kind of different, Dave. I have to say that, but I think you’ll appreciate his candor and certainly his wealth of knowledge. So, until we speak again, have an amazing sales day, and use those consultative selling skills. See you next time. [21:04]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jun 9, 2023 | Podcast
About LJ Sarkodee: LJ Sarkodee, is the creator of Freedom Sales School, author of Conversations that Convert, and Founder of Sales Closers. She has over 20 years of high-ticket sales closing experience, selling services from £2k ($2.5k) – £100k ($120k). LJ’s expertise lies in helping businesses and entrepreneurs close more deals and generate more revenue through effective sales strategies and techniques. Her company, Sales Closers, provides a wide range of services, including sales coaching, training, and consulting, that help her clients achieve their sales goals and grow their businesses. She hired and led virtual sales teams around the globe, to sell out multi-six and 7 figure launches. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about LJ.
In this episode, Nancy and LJ discuss the following:
- Why do people burn out in sales?
- LJ’s person burnout story.
- Recruiting sales professionals and finding A players in sales: tips for interviewing the candidates.
- Why are some people really afraid of outsourcing?
- Peculiarities of the high-ticket closing sales cycle.
- Get control of the sales process.
- Importance of training outsourced salespeople internally.
Key Takeaways:
- Whilst that was a hard period and a hard lesson to learn, I’m thankful for it, as it taught me how I didn’t want to do things moving forward.
- When we are looking for A-Players, it’s always character first and foremost what we’re looking for.
- I kind of make a joke that if a salesperson is too good at interviews, that’s a concern of mine.
- A surrendered sale is just the art of being present in the conversation and allowing it to flow from there.
- In the training team internally, we see that element of continual improvement and we believe that it’s a skill to receive feedback and receive coaching.
“And linking it back to what we said at the very start, I think sometimes as women as well, we’re trying to balance all the things and spin all the plates at once, being a mom and a business owner and doing the sales, be a good wife. And we try and wear all these hats, and it’s just not practical at all. We’re just not very kind to ourselves and, my belief is that when we’re in that, prospects aren’t getting the best of us so we’re not showing up in the best possible way, whether that be working for ourselves or whether it be working for in an employed role either way. If you’re showing up at kind of… the gas tank is half full, then you’re doing no one any favors at all. And that inevitably will come crashing down at some point if you don’t listen to your body.” – LJ
“So, I think again, when it comes to higher ticket sales, what we’re looking for as much as the sales experience is the life experience. So, when it comes to, you know, overturns, handling objections, that kind of thing. If someone doesn’t really have it in the muscle or doesn’t have the life experience to be able to connect with the prospect and understand where they’re coming from, I think that’s, it’s quite difficult and we notice that in conversions. ” – LJ
“There’s another nuance with surrendered sales for me as well. And that’s in the sales conversation itself. It’s like the art of being attached to the outcome and just being present in the conversation and trusting the flow of that conversation rather than trying to over-control and over-orchestrate what’s going to happen next. It’s, you know, this surrender is just the art of being present in the conversation and allowing it to flow from there.” – LJ
Connect with LJ Sarkodee:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation! Today we are excited to have LJ Sarkodee, the creator of Freedom Sales School, author of Conversations that Convert, and Founder of Sales Closers. LJ’s expertise lies in helping businesses and entrepreneurs close more deals and generate more revenue through effective sales strategies and techniques. Her company, Sales Closers, provides a wide range of services, including sales coaching, training, and consulting, that help her clients achieve their sales goals and grow their businesses. So, if you’re listening in and hungry for practical advice and insights on improving your sales game and driving business growth, you won’t want to miss today’s episode. Welcome to the show, LJ! [01:20]
LJ Sarkodee: Thank you for having me, Nancy. It’s great to be here and talk with a fellow female sales professional. It’s always fun. We’re in such a male-dominated industry. I always think it’s great to have a female.
Nancy Calabrese: You know what it’s funny you say that. I’m a part of women’s sales pros, which are sales professionals in the US. I think it’s global. But anyway, at the end of the day, the owner of this business always complains that there are fewer people, women in sales than should be. Yeah, so in doing my research about what you do and your company, you talk about people burning out in sales. Why does that happen? [02:16]
LJ Sarkodee: Listen, I’ve come from a corporate sales background. So, it’s kind of 20, 20 plus years in sales. And, you know, when I look back at my corporate days, a lot of it comes down to the kind of relentless targets and, you know, anytime a salesperson hits the target, then of course, what happens, the target goes up. And it’s like, you know, it feels like a lot of the time in the corporate world, that they’re constantly trying to squeeze everything they can out of their salespeople. And there is this thing in the industry where there’s just this perpetual burnout.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
LJ Sarkodee: And when that happens, you know, quite often great sales professionals, sadly, you know, they’ll, they’ll end up not sticking around or moving onto the next gig or worse case, yeah, ending up in complete burnout over it. [03:11]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, it’s too bad. I think at the end of the day, we’ll also have to take a step back and get some quiet time, personal time. Because going at 100% all day long, I saw your video, what your calendar looked like. You must have been fried every day.
LJ Sarkodee: Yeah, 100%. And linking it back to what we said at the very start, I think sometimes as women as well, we’re trying to balance all the things and spin all the plates at once, being a mom and a business owner and doing the sales, be a good wife. And we try and wear all these hats, and it’s just not practical at all. We’re just not very kind to ourselves and, my belief is that when we’re in that, prospects aren’t getting the best of us so we’re not showing up in the best possible way, whether that be working for ourselves or whether it be working for in an employed role either way. If you’re showing up at kind of… the gas tank is half full, then you’re doing no one any favors at all. And that inevitably will come crashing down at some point if you don’t listen to your body. So, like you say, you know, I learned the hard way. [04:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep.
LJ Sarkodee: Personally, I did burn out badly. And I had to take six months out. And that was in my mid-30s, which is crazy thinking about it. I never thought in my 30s I would experience a time so burnt out that I wouldn’t be able to work for six months every time I tried. But, whilst that was a really hard period and a hard lesson to learn, it’s one I’m really thankful for, Nancy, because it, you know, it taught me some great lessons and it taught me how I didn’t want to do things moving forward. [05:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure.
LJ Sarkodee: So, when I was able to then rebuild my business and, you know, look at how I wanted to work moving forward, I was able to do it in a way that, yeah, was much, much kinder. And that involved, you know, building a team around me, outsourcing, getting the right people in the right places. And not trying to do all the things myself. Again, it’s one as business owners and entrepreneurs are like, oh, well, I can do it. So, I will. But no, that’s the fast track to burnout for sure.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Before we jumped on, we were talking a little bit about your background in recruiting sales professionals and finding those A players in sales. I mean, what qualities do you look for when you interview these candidates? [06:10]
LJ Sarkodee: You know, for me, when we are looking for A-Players, so the agency side of the business, we are constantly hiring because we provide outsourcing services to our clients. And for me, it’s always character first and foremost is what we’re looking for.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep.
LJ Sarkodee: I’ve also often, and I don’t know whether you relate to this, Nancy, as you’ve shared, you know, you’ve got quite a lot of experience hiring salespeople as well, but I kind of make a joke that if a salesperson is too good at interviews, that’s a concern of mine. [06:49]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
LJ Sarkodee: Like, uh, they’ve maybe had too many interviews in their time. Um, but what I’m looking for, yeah, first and foremost is character is like how they carry themselves. Um, Could I trust them? Do I want to have a conversation with them? And we move through the process. We have quite a thorough process in terms of the initial application form. We’re looking at what people are saying there. Sometimes people are putting three-word answers.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
LJ Sarkodee: And it’s like, well, come on. How much effort are you putting in here? So that will discount some people. In the second stage, we will invite people to record a video of themselves. [07:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Yup.
LJ Sarkodee: Simple, we’ll talk them through the steps. You know, we’ll give them actions in terms of, this is what we want you to say, this is what we want you to cover, this is how long we want it to be. So, A, we want to see, if can someone follow instructions.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
LJ Sarkodee: Are they prepared and are they prepared to get out of their comfort zone? And honestly, it’s surprising to me the number of people that just are not prepared, it’s a 90-second video that we ask for, it’s not over. The number of sales professionals that just are not prepared to go that step and just get out of their comfort zone. So that knocks a lot of people out of our process at that stage. Um, at that point, we then go to interview and we’re really getting to know the individual. At that point, yes, we want the sales experience, but I’m more interested in the person. [08:29] So, I think again, when it comes to higher ticket sales, what we’re looking for as much as the sales experience is the life experience. So, when it comes to, you know, overturns, handling objections, that kind of thing. If someone doesn’t really have it in the muscle or doesn’t have the life experience to be able to connect with the prospect and understand where they’re coming from, I think that’s, it’s quite difficult and we notice that in conversions. So that’s what we’re looking for there. And then finally, we do role plays as well. Good old role plays, you know, you can’t.
Nancy Calabrese: The good old role play.
LJ Sarkodee: You can’t go too far wrong with those. And whilst I know a lot of people hate them, show me a better way just to have some fun, to understand how someone handles a sales call. We’re not looking, sorry, go ahead. [09:26]
Nancy Calabrese: No, it’s funny that in listening to you, when we hire people here, I have them do a read-through of a call script because we only hire people that have had experience. And like you, I’m shocked at how many people can’t deliver a script and make it sound natural.
LJ Sarkodee: Yeah, yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: It’s amazing.
LJ Sarkodee: Really worried. Yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Next question. All right, so a good portion of your business, companies come to you and outsource their sales to you. Is that correct?
LJ Sarkodee: That’s correct. Yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: But why are some people really afraid of outsourcing? What are the concerns? [10:12]
LJ Sarkodee: Yeah, great question. The thing we see most is, and this theory is depending on the size of the business that we’re talking to. Interestingly, the bigger the business gets, the less this becomes an issue because they kind of overcome it, but we often see business owners who haven’t outsourced before, they very much see their business as their baby. These are their prospects who they may well, you know, we just focus on the closing aspect. So, they may well be spending thousands and thousands of dollars on ad spend to then put those leads in the hands of a salesperson that they haven’t yet built that trust aspect up. So, it’s a big deal for them and we get that 100% but equally, you know, where business the sales themselves, you know, they’re always going to be a bottleneck to their own growth. [11:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
LJ Sarkodee: So, at some point they’ve just got to go with it. I suppose the other, you know, the options they have are like, well, they can either outsource or they can hire directly. And I suppose, again, depending on where you are and what stage of growth, it feels less risky, I guess, outsourcing, particularly in our model it’s commission only. So, whether paying them a salary or having to go through all the legalities and requirements of hiring a sales professional, they can outsource to professionals who then eventually represent their brand. And the good thing I find with the type of sales that we focus on, again, it’s like yourself, Nancy, it is for the most part phone sales or Zoom or, yeah, or video, video call for the most part. So, it’s all remote. [12:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep.
LJ Sarkodee: But yeah, these people, you know, they are well experienced in that type of selling. They enjoy it. And yeah, it’s very easy for someone to slot in and they essentially become an extension of their team. So, it’s really a sales partner.
Nancy Calabrese: Yup. You know, it’s funny too, because you know, with your high-ticket closing, there are salespeople that prefer a shorter sales cycle. And maybe I’m assuming this. But the high-ticket closing, doesn’t it generally take longer? Does the sales cycle take longer?
LJ Sarkodee: Again, it will depend on the type of business. Um, so with the clients, typically that we work with in high ticket, often it’s much shorter. In fact, it’s one of the criteria we have for new clients coming on board that, um, their sales cycle doesn’t exceed one month. So, yeah, for, for those types of businesses, you know, we could be selling, um, services up to 25,000, we have sold more, up to 50,000, but up to 25,000 over the course of two phone calls or two Zoom calls, which is great, but how the reason that can happen that way is the prospects, the clients that we work with will have a very solid… sales process, marketing funnel upfront that actually nurtures these people to be able to get to the point where they’re ready for a closing conversation. So yeah, it’s a different skill. You know, we see a lot of people coming out of corporate life and struggling with this because it’s like a high ticket in these short sales cycles. It’s a highly emotional sale as well. So, unless, you know, they can the salesperson is really brave enough to get to the crux of the pain and evoke some kind of emotion, then it’s unlikely that it will move to a close. I really enjoy that type of selling, I’ve got to say. I find it. [14:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, if you can close a high ticket and two phone calls, I think that would be gold to any salesperson, right?
LJ Sarkodee: Exactly, exactly. We’re seeing a lot of corporate salespeople find their way to us intrigued.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh yeah, I can imagine. I read also that you use the term surrendered sales. What do you mean by that?
LJ Sarkodee: So, what I mean by that is where you can let go of the control of the sales process. So that could look like various forms. If that’s outsourcing, you know, just letting go of that process of selling and trusting the process in that. But I think there’s almost another nuance with surrendered sales for me as well. And that’s in the sales conversation itself. It’s like, that art of being and attached to the outcome and just being present in the conversation and trusting the flow of that conversation rather than trying to over-control and over-orchestrate what’s going to happen next. It’s, you know, this surrender is just the art of being present in the conversation and allowing it to flow from there. [15:57]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, I get really pumped up when I speak with experts like yourself about what I love to do. And people often say selling is hard. And my statement is no, this is what I love. I wouldn’t want to do your job. I would find it difficult. You know, either you have the skills, or you don’t. And that the same way I’m trying to make here is. Obviously, you do training. So, once you hire these outsourced salespeople, do you continue to train the team internally?
LJ Sarkodee: Yeah, we do. So, we have a talent manager internally whose job is to develop our sales team. So, he will be working in terms of listening to calls, working with them, and coaching on a weekly basis. You know, I really enjoy it again, because they are commission-only closers for the most part. They’re very open to feedback, which not all salespeople are. You know, it’s a skill to receive feedback and receive coaching. But when we’re all on the same page, it’s like, well, if we can help you sell more, then you’re going to make more, we’re going to make more clients, going to make more. Everyone is happy. So, there’s that element of continual improvement and also sharing best practices within the sales team. [17:34]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep.
LJ Sarkodee: As well, you know, if there’s particularly good cause that we can share that and I suppose build each other up as much as anything, encourage each other as like, well, what’s working now, what’s working with this client that also might work well with a similar type of business. Because, you know, that’s great.
Nancy Calabrese: You know, and I think it keeps the organization sticky. Everyone in my company, including my administrative staff, participates in sales training every week. And my people, you know, when you think about, well, I guess it could apply to you, commission salespeople, cold call, or appointment setters. It’s a highly stressful at times situation. And the training is what they love the most. And we feed off one another, you know, in our training sessions. So, I think that’s an excellent plus. I can’t believe we’re up in time. I told you this was going to be a fun call.
LJ Sarkodee: Ha ha ha ha.
Nancy Calabrese: How can my people find you?
LJ Sarkodee: So, the best way to get in contact is www.salesclosers.com.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
LJ Sarkodee: And yeah, you can get in touch with us there. There’s info at the email address or yeah, book a call with me or one of my team. [19:02]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. Yeah. So, you know, for everyone out there, if you are frustrated because you just don’t have the time to generate the sales or maybe that’s not your strongest skill, I say pick up the phone and, well, or email, phone or email LJ and have a strategy session with her. She brings a wealth of knowledge and will… help you build your businesses. So, LJ, I hope you come back sometime in the future. We can continue our sales combo.
LJ Sarkodee: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Nancy. It’s been fun.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, thank you. And thank you, everyone, for listening in. We’ll see you next time and make it a great sales day. [19:54]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jun 6, 2023 | Podcast
About Lynn Whitbeck: Lynn Whitbeck, the Founder/CEO of Petite2Queen and Future Forward Sales, uses her expertise to guide entrepreneurs and business leaders to successful sales growth. Building on her 30 years of success and experiences as Vice President of Business Development and COO of direct consumer technology start-ups, Lynn is focused on catapulting sales teams and educating individuals daily to superior performance and success. Lynn is committed to lifting business leaders with the ingredients for growth and a profitable sales recipe. She helps transform thinking to the client’s perspective and end sales chaos with a robust strategic plan to harvest the hidden profits. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Lynn.
In this episode, Nancy and Lynn discuss the following:
- Secret ingredients of a profitable sales recipe.
- Building Successful Sales Strategies on Referrals Basis.
- The difference between ghosting and a no-show.
- 7 reasons why salespeople get ghosted.
- How do we bust the ghost?
- Lynn’s story about a huge multimillion-dollar account.
Key Takeaways:
- The primary reason that you get ghosted is that people are busy.
- It’s all about the right message, the right audience, and the right time.
- People are ready to buy at different stages.
- You demonstrate worthy intent by asking the right questions and listening more than you talk.
- They will respond if you demonstrate value and worthy intent without hounding them.
- Getting a handwritten card or package that ties to your product or service will move the conversation forward and build reciprocity.
“A profitable sales recipe has to include the core foundation of sales strategy, which is thinking like your client, truly understanding your ideal client avatar, the client journey, and then the human-to-human relationships and building those relationships with worthy intent. So, when you have that recipe, then you can execute on that and then (part of like the client journey) to build that profit in is, of course, you seed the referral process from the very first conversation and then all the way through your client journey so that when you’ve earned the right you ask for the referral. That shortens your sales cycle, brings you a more profitable business, you create introductions, and you feed your business. And in addition, of course, then you also can sell more to your existing clients.” – LYNN
“It’s really asking for an introduction, not a referral. So, to me, a referral is longer. I would ask for an introduction because that’s not as threatening, and that’s not. That differs from a referral trust you and is passing on this trusted relationship. So that would be a formula that I would apply to.” – LYNN
“There’s a difference between ghosting and a no-show. With a no-show, they don’t come up or show up for the meeting. There are all kinds of extenuating circumstances and reasons around that, but I’m going to focus more on ghosting because it will cover some of that for the no-shows. But the first thing about ghosting is my question, which is rhetorical, but it’s who’s ghosting Because I want to be honest with sales, we sometimes ghost our prospects because we’re not following up. Okay, so that is absolutely critical. So, let’s talk about the reasons that people get ghosted because it is a morale killer for salespeople. And it’s one of the top three things that salespeople list as one of the things that really hurt them in their business.” – LYNN
Connect with Lynn Whitbeck:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Lynn Whitbeck, founder, and CEO of Petite2Queen and Future Forward Sales, where she uses her expertise to guide entrepreneurs and business leaders to successful sales growth. Building on her 30 years of success and experiences as a Vice President of business development and COO of direct consumer technology startups, Lynn is focused on catapulting sales teams and educating individuals daily to superior performance and success. Lynn is committed to lifting business leaders with the ingredients for growth and a profitable sales recipe. Welcome to the show, Lynn. This is gonna be a fun discussion. [1:15]
Lynn Whitbeck: Well, Nancy, thank you so much for having me. And I am really excited to be here with you. And I can’t wait to shed some light on the topic.
Nancy Calabrese: You know what, I’m looking at the word that I just read catapulting. I don’t hear that word that often anymore, do you?
Lynn Whitbeck: Well, I mean, you know, there’s so many different…the English language is so rich, there’s a lot of different words, and sometimes something just sort of comes to you and it’s that taking that leap, but it’s a really boosted leap, right?
Nancy Calabrese: Well, I like that word. I think I’m going to put it in my vocabulary moving forward. So, I guess I’m most intrigued by the statement that you help business leaders with the ingredients for growth and a profitable sales recipe. What is a profitable sales recipe? [2:11]
Lynn Whitbeck: Well, a profitable sales recipe has to include the core foundation of sales strategy, which is thinking like your client, truly understanding your ideal client avatar, the client journey, and then the human-to-human relationships, and building those relationships with worthy intent. So, when you have that recipe, then you can execute on that and then part of like the client journey to build that profit in is of course you seed the referral process from the very first conversation and then all the way through your client journey so that when you’ve earned the right you ask for the referral. That shortens your sales cycle, brings you a more profitable business, creates introductions and raving fans, and feeds your business. And in addition, of course, you can also sell more to your existing clients. [3:10]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: And because once again, that is the easiest sale that you’ll ever have to make. The second is a referral sale. So those are ways, but you must have that foundation in place to really execute that flawlessly.
Nancy Calabrese: You know, you picked up on something, and I’ve debated this with some people, asking for referrals. We here at One of a Kind Sales, my team is cold calling, and they’re not interested, for instance. We always ask for a referral. What are your thoughts on that, and is there a certain strategy around that?
Lynn Whitbeck: Well, of course, there’s a little bit of difference when you’re doing the cold calling because when I look at referrals, I really look at that ear. So, you’ve earned the right, right? And that it’s all about really asking them and then getting the referrals. So, in a cold call situation, you haven’t necessarily earned the right, at least from my perspective. Now it’s a little bit different, do you know of anyone else that we could have an impact on? [4:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: So, there are different ways that you could phrase it. That would be how I would approach it because then it’s really asking for an introduction, not a referral. So, to me, a referral is longer. I would ask for an introduction because that’s not as threatening and that’s not, that is different than a referral. trust you and is really passing on this trusted relationship. Whereas an introduction, you know, I mean, hey, Nancy, do you have an introduction that who would you like to be introduced to? How can I help serve you? So that’s different. And then making it a give, who can I introduce you to that would help you? And then the get an introduction for myself. So that would be a formula that I would apply to get the get and I would get an introduction. [5:17]
Nancy Calabrese: I like that. I like that a lot. We’re going to start using that as well. So, before we jumped on together, I know that we had gone back and forth about some topics that would be of interest. And your observation, rightfully so, is very few people on my podcast have ever really spoken about what we hate in sales, ghosting, no shows. And I know that’s something that you want to speak more about. So why does it happen? Why do people just say they’re going to do something and then don’t do it and don’t get back to you?
Lynn Whitbeck: Wow. Well, okay. So first, there’s a difference between ghosting and a no-show. With a no-show, you know, they don’t come up, they don’t show up for the meeting. There are all kinds of extenuating circumstances and reasons around that, but I’m going to focus more on ghosting because it will cover some of that for the no-shows. But the first thing about ghosting is my question, which is rhetorical, but it’s who’s ghosting Because I want to be honest with sales, we sometimes ghost our prospects because we’re not following up. Okay, so that is absolutely critical. So, let’s talk about the reasons that people get ghosted because it is a morale killer for salespeople. And it’s one of the top three things that salespeople list as one of the things that really hurt them in their business. [6:55] So,
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: Number one is that people are busy. They are busy, busy, busy. And it is the primary reason that you get ghosted. And I’m just gonna go quickly through this. Number two, as you just haven’t nailed the pain point or the urgency, there hasn’t formed that spark about why they need to make a follow-up or they need to show up, right?
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: Number three is to solve it. Really, you haven’t answered. why it matters to them. And you haven’t solved, given them that vision of the so they can, what’s the goal, the dream that they’re trying to achieve. [7:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: So, when you haven’t answered that, then it’s easier to brush something off or ignore it, right? Okay, next, maybe you are pushing too hard and you haven’t failed to honor the exploration phase. So, depending on the type of follow-up, the type of ghosting that’s occurred, that could be one of the things that’s happening. All right, there’s number five. I’ve got seven of these, magic seven. So, number five is they don’t know how to say no. Now some people will simply, you know, that fight, flight, you know, freeze, and I call it finesse is number four. Some people just simply don’t wanna deal with it, right?
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: So, you need to create a safety net so you can get to the yes or the no because at the end of the day, we want people to be upfront and honest so that we can spend our time more effectively. Number six. So, this is my, you haven’t earned the right. So now here’s the thing. What if this prospect has had a really bad experience, maybe even with your own organization before, you have to respect that recovery time if they’ve had a negative experience. And that it all goes into it. [8:55] So thinking about that is important. And number seven, what did you do?
Nancy Calabrese: All right.
Lynn Whitbeck: You know, come on, you could have unknowingly turned someone off. And so those are my seven reasons, but I’m absolutely the number one is that they’re busy. It’s just they’re busy.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, yep. And I guess, you know when that does happen to me, I will email them, I’ll call them, and then I’ll email them. And my goal is always just to get at the truth. You know, if this is really not something that you anticipate doing in the near future, it’s okay by giving them permission to say, no, it’s not the right time. And then you just, you still salvage the relationship, right, in the conversation and you follow up with them in the future. [9:45]
Lynn Whitbeck: Yeah, no, absolutely, because it is. It’s all about the right message, the right audience, and the right time. People are ready to buy at different stages, and you have to have that into your strategy so that you can plan for next week, next month, next quarter, and next year.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. And I’m a big believer in getting to the no as soon as possible. So, you can free up and do work and find those yeses that will drive business to your company. So, you talked about the common reasons for ghosting. But how do we bust the ghost? How can we move that sale forward? [10:25]
Lynn Whitbeck: Well, there’re a lot of things that you can do to avoid ghosting. So, the first step is really to know your client: Why? Why does your client want to buy? I mean, what’s in it for them? You know, why does it matter to them? So, they can: what? This is that whole client-thinking exercise. What do they want, need or lack? Why does it matter to them so they can’t now, if you don’t have an understanding the desired destination you’re basically selling them what you have, not what they want, need, or lack. So, that’s the first thing is you really got to go through that client thinking and then reverse engineer their way into your strategy, into your messaging, into how you’re communicating. Okay, so one of the things that you can do when you have that is that then now you can create or leverage absolutely existing content that you can have to help answer that client why to make those reminders, especially if it’s like a no-show, like how do you create the reminders so that it’s like: “Yeah, I gotta show up”. This is important, I need to be there. You throw in a video; you do some other things that remind them about the value of coming maybe to that very first strategy session. [11:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: And then you use that so that you can put that into your communication strategy. And so, an easy place… to understand your clients’ thinking. If anyone’s wondering, like, I’m not sure how to this is, so, of course, you can do like a Google search, but one of the things you can do is you can use the platforms also asked or answer the public. And essentially on those tools, you can type in a phrase, maybe whatever you do, maybe, you know, for me, I might type in sales strategy. And then it’s gonna give you the long tail searches that people are actually typing into Google. And now there are going to be some things that don’t even they don’t match. They don’t make sense to you, but you’re going to get some insight into what people are thinking who are searching for what you do. Right. And so it’s a great starting point. And it also helps you to think about, okay, well, what kind of content do I want to create? Do I want to, that’s going to make sense so that I can create that spark and attraction to bring people to me. [12:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: And so, um, that’s one of the things that you can do. But another point that I want to make is that to bust the ghost is another thing that you need to do is you need to demonstrate that you have worthy intent. And what I mean by that is that you generally desire to help and serve them.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: And so, when you do that, you demonstrate that by asking the right questions, by listening more than you talk. benefits, that big dream, that goal, what they want. And then, while doing that, that really helps you make that connection when you do have the conversations. And when someone goes to you, you’re gonna go through a process of follow-ups, a follow-up cadence, and that’s one of the things that you use. So, what are their top questions? What are their top 10 pain points? What are their top 10 objections? Those are also another great place to start with creating content that will drive engagement and then mix up the types of methods. Now remember, people are busy, busy, busy. [13:59]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: So, here’s a story. I don’t wanna go over, but back in my corporate days, with a huge multimillion-dollar account, I’d had this great initial meeting, another conversation, and they went, they ghosted me. Then I heard another word, and I was going like, okay, they were really interested. This is a great fit. We can help them. And I stayed on it. I would do my Triumph and Triangle. I would leave a voicemail, really excited about something new, like a case study or something, a new upgrade to the system, whatever, because it was an enterprise sale. [14:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Lynn Whitbeck: And then, I would send the email with a link. And then three days later, so I did that one, two, and then three days later I would send a message. So like on LinkedIn, like a DM. So it’s wherever your audience hangs out. So, then sometimes I would send a package. Sometimes I would send just a note, you know, but I did this consistently. And, one of my Hail Mary passes is number 12 is I sent a lunch invitation and he accepted.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh!
Lynn Whitbeck: And so I flew in to have this lunch meeting, you know, and it ended up being a three-hour lunch and we moved the sales and he told me flat out. He said, every time you left me a message, every time you sent me an email, you delivered value. I’ve just been so busy dealing with so many things. But then I got the lunch invite and I went, I got to eat. [15:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Ha!
Lynn Whitbeck: And he said, so let’s get this, let’s get this to the next step. And that was what we did. And I did eventually, you know, corporate sales often take 18 months to three years. I did close that, that sale, but it’s that consistency. And my final, step 13 in my Hail Mary, true Hail Mary, is to send an email that, like, I’ve done you a disservice.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Lynn Whitbeck: And I can guarantee you people will respond. If you’ve been demonstrating value and worthy intent, and you haven’t been hounding them, you’ve respected the cadence, they will respond. And if nothing else, they’ll respond with, no, no, no, I’ve just been so busy, and… but you can at least get them to the next part of the conversation. Like, should I follow up in three months? Should I follow up in six months? [16:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Great.
Lynn Whitbeck: Would you like, is there another way that I can serve you? Would you like some introductions? Who do I know that could be of service to you?
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, and I guess what I’m taking away from what you’ve done, it’s all based on activity, right? To mix it up and to live where your people live and communicate through various channels. Is that the essence of it?
Lynn Whitbeck: Absolutely. And I want to, one final point is I want everyone to remember their friend, the post office person, or the, the Brown suited UPS driver because it’s so unusual these days to get an actual handwritten note or a package that’s hand addressed. Now, obviously, if you’re using UPS or some of the other things, but the thing is, is people are going to, it’s going to get to their desk and they’re going to open it if you’re dealing B2B. with a larger business, they probably still have a fax machine. That is also a very unique way to get something on their desk. And literally, they’re going to run through the building going, Oh my God, I got a fax today. [17:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Wow.
Lynn Whitbeck: But trust me, it’s going to get to their desk.
Nancy Calabrese: They pay attention, it’s different.
Lynn Whitbeck: And so it’s like, it gets their attention and everybody, you know, they, people love getting a card, a handwritten card or note or a package. Um, that makes sense. That ties to your product or service that will move the conversation forward and builds the reciprocity so they’re gonna respond.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, you have some really amazing tips and tricks. And I can’t believe we’re almost up with time. So, we’ll have to do this again. But what is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Lynn Whitbeck: If someone’s ghosting you, it’s probably because they’re busy. And that means that you need to do your job as a sales professional and start following up because that is where you close your sales. You build a relationship, you’re establishing what it’s gonna be like to work with you, that you’re gonna be there, that you’re gonna deliver value. And it’s gonna build that trust and the like known trust, and you will be able to move your relationship forward and eventually the sales floor. [18:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, professional persistence, we say here.
Lynn Whitbeck: Yes.
Nancy Calabrese: The key is not to harass them, and the no is just a not now, and keep moving forward, right?
Lynn Whitbeck: Absolutely.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, Lynn, you were fabulous. And I want to thank you genuinely from One of a Kind Sales and everybody out there for sharing your expertise. How can my people find you?
Lynn Whitbeck: Well, you can find me at Petite2Queen. That’s the digit two, Petite2Queen. I’m also the only Lynn Whitbeck on LinkedIn. So, two super simple ways to find me. [19:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, and Whitbeck is spelled W-H-I-T-B-E-C-K, correct?
Lynn Whitbeck: That’s correct.
Nancy Calabrese: All right, well everyone, go out there, use some of Lynn’s pointers, get in touch with her, and make it a great sales day. [19:23]
by Nancy Calabrese | May 26, 2023 | Podcast
About Merit Kahn: Merit Kahn, CEO of SELLect Sales Development, author of Myth Shift: Challenging the Truths That Sabotage Success, co-host of The Smarter Sales Show podcast. Merit is a certified emotional intelligence coach and certified speaking professional with over 25 years of experience. Throughout her career, Merit has worked with a variety of individuals, including salespeople, entrepreneurs, and professionals, as well as sales teams. She helps them shift their approach from selling to being chosen by their ideal clients. In her spare time, she is a stand-up comedian counting down the days until she trades in her title “single parent” for “empty nester.” Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Merit.
In this episode, Nancy and Merit discuss the following:
- Sandler Training in Merit’s life.
- You need to be selective about the clients that you bring in.
- Have you ever felt like you were pushing against the tide when what you really want is to be open to receiving more business success?
- Nobody believes they’re close-minded, right?
- What prompted Merit to writing Myth Shift?
- Is the strategy of having an open mind to absorb new information and then pivot when necessary correct?
- Why do so many of us sabotage success?
- Interesting story about Emotional Intelligence.
- Fun fact about Merit.
- How can my people reach you?
Key Takeaways:
- Our core philosophy really is that selling is not about being pushy or aggressive, it’s about being selected.
- The truth is we must dramatically open the client’s hand to illustrate the point that we have to open someone’s mind so that they can receive our value.
- My first role is to open their mind to new possibilities because, and one of the best questions for that is, have you already decided it can’t get any better or are you open to a new possibility?
- Really the total intention of my keynotes, my programs, my coaching, my consulting work, the whole essence is around open minds and closed deals.
- As I got more and more experience in the world, I realized that at face value, those lessons didn’t really serve me the way that they were written.
- Instead of just changing my mind willy-nilly or flip-flopping, which also has a negative connotation in the marketplace, I would consider that new information and then I made a new decision.
- I think when people sabotage their own success, they’re certainly not doing it consciously.
- And what I learned was that there was this foundation of emotions, how well we understand our emotions and the impact we have on other people that was very different with these two.
- You and I know that the most important thing you could do with a question that a prospect asks you is fine out why they asked you that.
- The most scientifically validated assessment tool on the market, I use a system through assessment through MHS, which is multi-health systems, and they’re fantastic.
- I can open your mind to new possibilities in ways that I’m not even able to do with you know, expertise and credibility and training and coaching, but I can do it with laughter.
“Our core philosophy really is that selling is not about being pushy or aggressive, it’s about being selected. So we really teach people to stop selling and start getting selected. And how you do that is really by Asking good questions, having good conversations, as you well know, it’s not about what you say, it’s about the questions that you ask. And those questions help your prospects understand that you are credible and confident, and you can solve their problems. And that’s when they select you. And the second piece of it really is you want to be selected by them, but you also want to make sure that you’re selecting every single one of your ideal clients because you’re going to put a lot of effort and energy. ” – Merit
“And the way that I distinguish marketing and sales is marketing is everything that happens before you’re in a conversation. Once you’re in a conversation, you’re in the sales part of the process. And what you don’t wanna do is send somebody ” – Merit
“What I took from that when I read that study was, we all want to be perceived as open-minded. So how can we use that to our advantage? Not in a manipulative sale, you know, pushy way, but to recognize that I need to appeal to your bill, your desire to appear open-minded and once I remind you of that desire then you are inclined to agree with that. And now you’re more likely to hear my value. And whether we select to work with each other or not, from there is a different story, but I promise you, you will not sell or close a deal to a closed mind.” – Merit
Connect with Merit Kahn, CSP:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Merit Kahn, the CEO of Sellect, sales development, author of Myth Shift, Challenging the Truths that Sabotage Success, and co-host of the Smarter Sales Show podcast. Merritt is a certified emotional intelligence coach and certified speaking professional with over 25 years of experience. And throughout her career, Merit has worked with a variety of individuals, including CEOs, salespeople, entrepreneurs, as well as sales teams. And she helps them shift their approach from selling to being chosen by their ideal clients. So, look, if you’re looking for some practical tips and inspiring insights on leadership and business growth, this is gonna be a great show to listen to. Welcome to the show, Merit. [1:22]
Merit Kahn: Thank you, Nancy. I appreciate the invitation to be here.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I’m so excited. So, on a side note, everyone, I just found out that Merit is Sandler trained like I am. So, this is really going to be a fun memory lane for you, Merit.
Merit Kahn: Yep. I was a Sandler trainer and coach for about a dozen years. So, it’s a part of how I work.
Nancy Calabrese: Well, we definitely talk the same language. And let’s start with a comment that you say or made. So, helping clients shift their approach from selling to being chosen by their ideal clients. How does that happen? [2:06]
Merit Kahn: Well, a little backstory, that’s actually why we call a company Select Sales. We spell it S-E-L-L-E-C-T, not because we don’t know how to spell the word select, but because our core philosophy really is that selling is not about being pushy or aggressive, it’s about being selected. So we really teach people to stop selling and start getting selected. And how you do that is really by Asking good questions, having good conversations, as you well know, it’s not about what you say, it’s about the questions that you ask. And those questions help your prospects understand that you are credible and confident, and you can solve their problems. And that’s when they select you.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. It’s funny. This is this just happened yesterday in our Sandler class. It was topic was scarcity and sales. One of the questions the coach asked was how many of you in this class want to write every account that gets in front of you. And most of the people raised their hands. I didn’t because I think you need to be selective about. the clients that you bring in. Do you agree with that? [3:24]
Merit Kahn: 100%. And that’s the second piece of it really is you of course want to be selected by them, but you also want to make sure that you’re selecting every single one of your ideal clients because you’re going to put a lot of effort and energy. My clients are generally in businesses where they sell something complex, creative or custom. So, that’s not a click here, buy now kind of an offer. their effort, their time, their expertise. And if you’re working with somebody who’s really not a good fit in terms of who you’re best suited to work with or the solutions that you provide in the marketplace, it’s ultimately not gonna be your best work. And that doesn’t lead to the referrals and introductions that you want to grow your business more easily in the future.
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. Yeah, in that case, nobody’s happy.
Merit Kahn: Exactly. [4:25]
Nancy Calabrese: The team isn’t happy, the client isn’t happy, and it’s just, and we all make those mistakes from time to time. As much as I try to pick the right clients, we slip on banana peels sometimes.
Merit Kahn: Well, and let’s be honest in the real world, sometimes you’re going to take some clients on because the business requires it, right? Like it’s a sales, it’s about the bottom line. There’s, there’s money involved. You have to be thinking about your revenue goals. And, and sometimes, sometimes we do that. Sometimes it’s required and the way that you would get around that is, okay, this may not be my ideal prospect, but how can I set expectations so that we’re working together in appropriate ways and in ways that best suit each other. So sometimes, you know, there’s other aspects of selecting the ways that you work with people. [5:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so you asked the question, I think it’s on your website, have you ever felt like you were pushing against the tide when what you really want is to be open to receiving more business success? I mean, how do we do that?
Merit Kahn: Well, I would say so many of my clients over the years just have complained and they’ve been frustrated by, at some point or another, they feel like they’re talking to a brick wall, right? They’re just, they know they have solutions that solve problems, and they can’t seem to get into the conversation. So, it’s, you know, a lot of times people will say to me, Merit, I’m great once I’m face to face with somebody, it’s just getting those conversations. And they look at that as solely a marketing challenge. And of course, it is partly a marketing challenge. And the way that I distinguish marketing and sales is marketing is everything that happens before you’re in a conversation. Once you’re in a conversation, you’re in the sales part of the process. And what you don’t wanna do is send somebody backwards to marketing like, hey, did you see our website? Like… Don’t do that. You’re in a conversation. [6:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Merit Kahn: Have the conversation. Um, what I was finding was people were not, um, well trained in how do you open the minds of somebody to receive your value? So as an example, I’ll paint the picture for you. When I do a, uh, a keynote at a large conference or sales kickoff or company retreat, one of the very first things I do in my, in the opening of the program. is I have a volunteer on stage, and we do this whole song and dance about, you know, whether or not they’ve ever been in a fist fight and I have them make a fist. Well, that fist represents your prospect’s closed mind. And then I say, I say, Hey, Nancy, have you brought, did you bring your wallet? [7:20] And then
Nancy Calabrese: You’re right.
Merit Kahn: We have a little chuckle about money and things, but ultimately somehow we get a, a high denomination bill and I take that bill and I say, Okay, this hundred dollar bill represents all the value you have to give. This is your great customer service, your years of credibility, all the things. Right. But if I try to jam that dollar bill into that closed fist, what happens? Nothing.
Nancy Calabrese: Nothing. [7:49]
Merit Kahn: And we do that all day long. We’re trying to, to cram our good value, all of our features and our benefits, you know, back in the old days, we tried to do that, but like all this stuff, all the good stuff into someone’s closed mind. And the truth is we have to dramatically open their hand to, you know, to illustrate the point that we have to open someone’s mind so that they can receive our value. And, and it’s very simple, honestly, it could be as simple as four words, which are, are you open to? It could, you know, there are other ways that I work with clients, um, to help them get in the head space where they have to remind themselves, I’ve got to open my mind to new possibilities. And then my first role is to open their mind to new possibilities because, and one of the best questions for that is, have you already decided it can’t get any better or are you open to a new possibility? [8:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow.
Merit Kahn: And. When you ask somebody that question, they literally have to stop in their tracks and go, Oh yeah, I guess I’m open to something new. Cause nobody wants to say they’re closed minded. So yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Interesting. Nobody believes they’re close-minded, right?
Merit Kahn: Right. Yeah. Well, actually there was a study done by Pepperdine University a number of years ago, and they asked people, are you open-minded? And, you know, everybody says yes. And then they asked, do you consider yourself more open-minded than the average person? And 95% of people in that survey self-reported, yes, I am more open-minded than the average person. I don’t know where you went to school, Nancy, but that math does not work, not even new math. So… Um, you know, but what I took from that when I read that study was we all want to be perceived as open-minded. So how can we use that to our advantage? Not in a manipulative sale, you know, pushy way, but to recognize that I need to appeal to your bill, your desire to appear open-minded and once I remind you of that desire. then you are inclined to agree with that. And now you’re more likely to hear my value. And whether or not we select to work with each other from there is a different story, but I promise you, you will not sell or close a deal to a closed mind. [10:25] And that’s why
Nancy Calabrese: Huh
Merit Kahn: really the total intention of my keynotes, my programs, my coaching, my consulting work, The whole essence is around open minds, closed deals.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, let’s talk about your book, Myth Shift. I mean, what prompted you to write it?
Merit Kahn: I wrote that back in 2016 and, you know, I, I just was frustrated myself because there were so many things that I remember being told when I was starting my business and starting my career. And, and as I got more and more experience in the world, I realized that at face value, those lessons didn’t really serve me the way that they were written. And so I looked at the things that I was taught are the truisms in business. And I looked at them from different angles and decided that there was a slight shift that was necessary. So for example, one of the things that, and you know this, cause you work with leaders as well, leaders wanna be strong decision makers, right? It’s powerful and it’s good to make quick decisions. you know, decisions that we stick to. And once we stick to it, we’re just going to stick to it no matter what, right? Because we’re go-getters and we’re going to power through. Well, I don’t know about you, but that was terrible advice for me. You know, sometimes it worked, but it wasn’t foolproof. And what I discovered was, you know, I call it the stick to it myth. And that is where you’re, you stick to it no matter what. But what I realized was that sometimes new information came into my experience. that would have rendered the decision that I made useless. [12:12] And
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Merit Kahn: So, I looked at that from different angles and I thought, you know, instead of just changing my mind willy-nilly or flip-flopping, which also has a negative connotation in the marketplace, I would consider that new information and then I made a new decision. So, I don’t know if I came up with this term or if I heard it and was swirling around in my subconscious. But
Nancy Calabrese: Great.
Merit Kahn: I learned to re-decide. And I love giving leaders that distinction because it gives them the language to change the course of direction without feeling like they’re not a good decisive leader. And so, yeah, and so the mechanics of selling, when I teach somebody what to actually say, I would say in that situation, look, based on the information that we had available to us at the time that I made this decision, this was exactly the right move. Since then, I’ve been made aware of new information and because of that, I’ve made a new decision. I’ve re-decided our game plan, our position, our goal, our objective, whatever, and this is the direction we’re taking. And if you’re somebody on that team, when they deliver that change, of course, and they change of direction, in that way, that still occurs to you as powerful. And so that’s an example of shifting the myth. [13:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, talk about being open-minded, right? That ties right back into what we just spoke about, having an open mind to absorb new information and then pivot when necessary, right?
Merit Kahn: Exactly. Yes.
Nancy Calabrese: So why do so many of us sabotage success?
Merit Kahn: I think when people sabotage their own success, they’re certainly not doing it consciously. I think most of that comes from the foundation that we layer all of our skills on top of. This was one of the things that I had to look outside of my Sandler training to find just something else because what happened to me was as a trainer, I had two guys in my class, Steven and Daniel, and they both were hired by the same company. at the same time, they sold in the same territory, the same products and services at the same price point. Like literally, I even thought these guys looked alike. Okay, like everything was the same. And then they sat in my class and they learned the same material from the same trainer at the same time. Except Steven would come back week after week after week, like, oh my gosh, Merritt, you won’t believe this. I had this other success story. you know, blah, blah, blah. And then Daniel was sitting there and listening to his colleague and getting more and more frustrated every week because he was not having the same success. [15:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Merit Kahn: And so that was a real, uh, that was a difficult moment for me as a coach and trainer, because, you know, I, I really believed in my process. I still believe in that methodology. I, I really love what I did. I really wanted to make a difference for people, but I couldn’t take credit for Stephen’s success if I also didn’t take responsibility for the fact that Daniel didn’t do much with it, that forced me to look. What else is there? What’s the difference between these two guys? That’s when I got certified in emotional intelligence. And what I learned was that there was this foundation of emotions, how well we understand our emotions and the impact we have on other people that was very different with these two. Daniel did not have any impulse control. So, I went and I taught him all the wonderful questioning techniques that we teach. And instead of using those in the real world, as soon as a prospect asked Daniel a question, he just blurted out the answer. Well, you and I know that the most important thing you could do with a question that a prospect asks you is fine out why they asked you that. [16:18]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yep.
Merit Kahn: So, you’ve got to have enough impulse control to wait on your answer to ask another question. And what I learned when I did an emotional intelligence, the most scientifically validated assessment tool on the market, I use a system through, assessment through MHS, which is multi-health systems, and they’re fantastic. And once I learned and saw on paper Daniel’s impulse control, and some of the other things that there’s 15 attributes we assess for, that’s when I could see the very clear difference between Stephen and Daniel. And what that allowed me to do as a coach was tailor my coaching so that I could work with Daniel on, in Sandler’s terms, it would be upfront contracts. [17:11] I talk about that now in my business as setting expectations, but I could teach him things to say in that. early part of a sales conversation so that he was giving himself permission to ask questions. I gave him strategies to interrupt himself when he found himself blurting out an answer too soon. And so that really helped him. And sure enough, then he started to see some of the same success that Stephen had. But that was when I learned that it wasn’t just about the mechanics of selling. It wasn’t just about what I was teaching people to say. It was about their mindset. and how they think and yeah, so.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, sales is fascinating to me and everybody’s different. You really have to understand their communication style, you know, what motivates them. And that’s an interesting story. Are you in touch with these gentlemen at all? [18:10]
Merit Kahn: I kept in touch with Stephen for a number of years after our business relationship was over. I’m sure we’re still LinkedIn friends. But now that you mentioned it, no one’s asked me that for a while, so maybe I’ll reach back out and see how they’re doing today.
Nancy Calabrese: Stephen, look out for your friend here. She’s going to be touching base with you.
Merit Kahn: Yeah, exactly.
Nancy Calabrese: You know what? We’re almost up with time, but you were such a fun lady. Share a fun fact about you. [18:42]
Merit Kahn: Fun fact about me is in my spare time, my spare 17 minutes every week, I love to perform standup comedy and I wrote a one woman inspiring comedy show that I performed a few times in Denver, where I live. I perform it regularly in Denver and I love it and I’m going to be taking that show on tour. So. Uh, you know, my list and let me, and then be alerted for where the comedy shows are coming, but, uh, that’s, that’s really one of my, my, the loves of my life, it’s a, it’s a passion of mine because I also learned that as a person who wants to help people see more possibilities for themselves, um, you know, my two entry points are business. Um, but also, but also laughter. And so if I can laugh, I can open you. I can open your mind to new possibilities in ways that I’m not even able to do with you know, expertise and credibility and training and coaching, but I can do it with laughter. [19:47]
Nancy Calabrese: That’s an excellent combination. You have to have fun. Laughter is so important, especially in sales. So I’m here smiling away. I don’t know about
Merit Kahn: Okay.
Nancy Calabrese: You folks out there, but you bring a smile to my face. So how can my people find you?
Merit Kahn: The hub of all things is my website. So it’s meritcon.com, M-E-R-I-T, just like a certificate. Con is K-A-H-N, so not like Genghis, but the other way.
Nancy Calabrese: Hahaha
Merit Kahn: And yeah, just go there. There’s a let’s talk button on that page. And I would say if I’ve inspired you, if you’re curious about your emotional intelligence or you’re planning a conference and you really need a dynamic speaker who’s gonna match the caliber of your audience, love to talk and so just book some time on my calendar. [20:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. I wanna thank you, Merit. I know this is the first time we’ve spoken. Hopefully it’ll be the beginning of a long-term business relationship and you’ll come back on the show.
Merit Kahn: I would love that. Thank you, Nancy.
Nancy Calabrese: Well, you’re very welcome. And for everyone out there, press that Let’s Talk button. Get her on the phone. She’s fabulous. And she will make you laugh. So, happy sales for everyone out there. And we’ll see you next time. [21:05]
