About David H. Mattson: Dave Mattson is the CEO and President of Sandler Training, a global training organization with more than three decades of experience in providing training to companies of all sizes throughout the world. His key areas of focus are sales leadership, strategy, and client satisfaction. Since joining Sandler in 1988, Mr. Mattson has guided the firm to its position as a global provider of sales and management training with over 250 operating units in 25 countries. Under his leadership, the company has also been recognized four times in the Top 20 Sales Training Companies by TrainingIndustry.com, and nine times by Entrepreneur magazine’s “Franchise 500” as the number-one sales training company in the United States. He is a best-selling author, sales, and management thought leader, keynote speaker, and leader for sales training seminars around the world. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Dave.
In this episode, Nancy and Dave discuss the following:
- Why Sandler is so successful.
- Script and its function is Sandler world.
- Applying Sandler tips and tricks in personal interactions.
- How one can quickly size up his/her prospect’s communication style.
- The connection between DISC and Sandler Methodology.
- Sandler methodology in a college curriculum.
- Sandler Rules for Salespeople and for Sales Leaders.
Key Takeaways:
- Sandler Methodology is a conversational sales model that allows you to insert your own personality, your knowledge of your own client base, and what you’re selling.
- The success triangle is behavior, technique, and attitude.
- Salespeople get paid to change the way they communicate. Buyers do not get paid to change the way they buy.
- The buyers just want to know if you understand their issue. They want to feel comfortable and trust that you do understand and have a solution.
- The top pros get rejected 80% of the time. So, it’s the norm.
“Good salespeople are like doctors. The doctor comes in and they’re super smart, but they say “Nancy, why’d you come in today? Tell me a little bit about the problem that you’re experiencing”. They ask questions, right? The value of a salesperson is determined by the information you gather not dispense. If you think about that. Because of that, if I use the doctor analogy if I were to go in, the other doctor doesn’t do that. They say “Nancy, thanks for coming in today. Hey, before you say a word, let me show you, my diplomas. Let me tell you about the universe that I went through. And I am at the top of my class. Let me show you the tools that I use when I operate”. And I do this data dump and you’re like, who cares? Let me tell you about me because people want to tell you about their problems, right? And I think that’s the difference and its maturity that happens that way.” – DAVE
“So, we have rules for salespeople, and we have rules for sales leaders. And again, I go back to, you can read a 400-page book on selling. Or what we’ve done is we’ve said, look, again, Sandler teaches the way to think, not necessarily what to say. So, if you have things like, there are quick rules, like don’t spill your candy in the lobby, all that simply means is go in and seek to understand. So, they’re catchy phrases, so you’ll remember them, but they apply to so many different scenarios in a selling situation versus a script that fits into one particular area. ” – DAVE
“First of all, no one wants to be rejected. If we even go back to, you know, and I’ll age myself here. We had school dances, you know, did I want somebody to hold up a sign and say Dave, please come ask me to dance? Yeah, because I was afraid to go over there and say, would you dance with me? Because I didn’t want to be rejected, you know?.” – DAVE
Connect with David Mattson:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dave-mattson-99538612/
- Sandler Training: https://www.sandler.com/
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/oneofakindsales
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/One-Of-A-Kind-Sales-304978633264832/
- Website: https://oneofakindsales.com
- Phone: 908-879-2911
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ncalabrese/
- Email: leads@oneofakindsales.com
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what is going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with David Mattson, CEO and President of Sandler Training, the world’s leader in innovative sales, leadership, and management training. Sandler works with companies of all sizes, and their clients include Salesforce, AT&T, Oracle, Microsoft, and Bank of America. Now Dave is recognized as one of the world’s leading experts in sales and leadership and contributing to books, blogs, podcasts, conferences, roundtables, and research around the globe and he oversees the corporate direction and strategy for the company’s global operations. His key areas of focus are sales leadership, strategy, and client satisfaction. So, all of you listeners know we are huge fans of Sandler methodology. So, welcome to the show, Dave! [01:26]
David Mattson: Thank you, Nancy. Thanks for having me.
Nancy Calabrese: So excited. So, for those that are unfamiliar with Sandler, describe the methodology and why it’s so successful.
David Mattson: Wow, that’s a loaded question. So, I’ll do the best that I can. One, it’s a conversational sales model that allows you to insert your own personality, your knowledge of your own client base, and what you’re selling from a cultural perspective and a geography perspective. What it’s not, Nancy, is a lot of scripts where you have to learn a script and then become somebody that you’re not. I mean, I remember when I first went into sales, I learned a lot of scripts. They seemed plausible to me, to be honest with you, until I was in front of a live person, and they didn’t have the other side of the script. So, I was doing my part, but they didn’t respond in the way they should have according to the script, and I didn’t know what to say after that. So, Sandler is built on a set of principles, a set of rules, where David Sandler didn’t teach you what to say specifically, he taught you how to think. [02:38] So, if you’re in this situation, think about it this way, and then of course he would help you with some words, but really whatever came naturally under that scenario would work, like spelling, right? I before E, except after C, the same type of thing. And I think the other thing that makes Sandler different is that we work on three different areas. So, when we teach something, let’s just say it’s cold calling for the sake of the discussion. We’re going to teach you great tactics and strategies, so good technique. But we also say, let’s talk about behavior and attitude. So, we have something, Nancy, called: the success triangle, which is behavior, technique, and attitude. And so, we’ll give you great things to say, but here’s how you must think about it. So, here’s the mindset. Have equal business stature. You will be rejected. It’s okay. Look for five Nos and then celebrate the Yes versus being depressed by the Nos that you get as an example. [03:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Great.
David Mattson: And then I’m from a behavioral perspective. It’s, you know, okay, so I’ve got the right mindset and I know what to say, but how often should I be doing it? And it really helps them create a well-rounded business where we’re saying, this is what you say, here’s how often you should be doing it, and here’s how you should think about it. And that trifecta of those three things has really propelled me people’s success is much higher than just learning the words but never doing it. Does that make sense?
Nancy Calabrese: It does, but I want to tap on something you just said earlier about you don’t believe in scripting. And I think as a starting point, you need a script. I mean, we work off a script, but it comes into our heads. So, the script goes away once you digest it and own it. What do you have to say about that? [04:29]
David Mattson: I agree. I think people get confused though about the transition between knowing it and then owning your own words, right?
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: So, you know, I, for instance, think you should take a script and say it out loud six times. It goes, you know, psychologically, it goes from, you know, you, it’s somebody else’s words to your words.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: And what you’ll find is people are hyperventilated about, oh, that’s not the exact word I should have used in the second paragraph. Who cares?
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: You know, it’s more of being natural. You know, focus on your buyer, respond to them and whatever comes out of your mouth, then it comes out of your mouth, but practice ahead of time. So, I’m a huge believer, Nancy, in talk tracks, right? So, what’s your 30-second commercial? What are your top five questions? I think you should have those just right in your hip pocket, comes off the top of your tongue, no problem. So, I’m not thinking about what’s Nancy going to ask. Oh, how would I respond to this question? I don’t think, you know, I think that’s unnatural. So, when I do, I do agree. I think you should have talk tracks. I think you should have a baseline, but I think you should personalize them. And then when you’re in the heat of it, just do what’s natural. [05:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, totally agree. And you know, what I’ve learned in all the years that I’ve studied Sandler, it’s a differentiator in communication, which really helps the sales conversation. But it also applies to personal interactions, which is cool. Would you agree?
David Mattson: Yeah, it’s amazing. So, I hear three things, Nancy, when I talk to clients, right? One is I wish I met Sandler 15 years ago, would it change the trajectory of my, you know, my professional career, which is always flattering? Second, I use this in my personal life as much as I use it in my professional life. Because if you think about selling, it’s really communication, right? It’s just people. We’re in the people business as you are in your personal life. And the third thing they say is, I wish my kids could go through this now, so they don’t have to go through the 10 years of pain that it took me to figure out what works and what doesn’t work in sales. [06:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Great.
David Mattson: And I always thought that was the greatest compliment. But to your point, if you’re doing sales right, it should be transparent and it should be something that you’re using all the time in all aspects of your life.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, I totally agree. And it’s really fun when you apply it to your family.
David Mattson: Yeah, it really is.
Nancy Calabrese: I get my daughter to do things. And I want to dive into this a bit, but she’s an S and I’m a D. So, when I communicate with her, I have to be deliberately different. And kind of that segue, I know that we talk about the four different communication styles. And maybe you can speak to that. How can you quickly size up your prospect’s communication style?
David Mattson: Well, I think the first thing you must do is listen. I think most of the time we’re going in worried about what I’m doing as a seller, what I’m thinking about as the seller, and what I’m going to say as the seller, and we miss all the signals. Because it’s always about me, me, me. And good sellers should be about you, you, you. I think the second thing that we should do is to learn who you are as a seller. I know, for instance, that using a disk language, I’m a D/C. So, I stay at 30,000 feet, I want to move quickly. I don’t want to dig into the details unless I ask you. You know, I’m very protective. In my mind, I probably stop listening, you know, X number of minutes into the conversation because I already in my head know where it’s going. Completely wrong, by the way, it doesn’t matter. But, you know, I’ve been taught it’s impolite to cut you off. So, I listen, but in my head I’m like, yeah, okay, I get it. And then the C kicks in, which is the analytical side. So… [08:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: And I’m happy to give you all the characteristics. But I think when you first meet somebody, one of the things that I say, Nancy, is “Look, I appreciate you seeing me today. I know we only have about 45 minutes. A lot to cover. Would you like me to spend a little time telling you about the company or kind of dig right into some of the things that we’re doing in the industry and the problems that we type solve?” And you kind of lead me. No, tell me about your company. How did you guys start? Well, that’s a personality type that would ask me that me a high D, I don’t care. I would just suspect you’re going to tell me that you’re awesome. You’re great. You’re the number one. You have awesome service. You know, I don’t expect you to say “Hey, Dave, before we start today, let me tell you a bit about us. We have, we’re terrible at service. I mean, we’re just not so good at that. You know, we’re going to discount the price here.” So, I just, you know, I’d like to hear the big picture. I’d like you to engage me quickly in a conversation. [09:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: So, I think if you listen to my communication style and if you listen to the questions that I ask, you know, if I send you an email, Nancy, it’s bulleted, it’s short. I don’t do a lot of salutation, which is, you know, people take us rude, and quite frankly, I don’t mean it to be that way. So, to your point, when you talk to your daughter, I’ve got to adjust. And here’s the key, salespeople get paid to change the way they communicate. Buyers do not get paid to change the way they buy. So, we have to be flexible as sellers.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, for many people out there in sales, and I learned this years ago, I mean, they’re trained in features and benefits, which is contrary to Sandler methodology. How long does it typically take a sales professional to change into consultative selling? And why is it challenging for them? [10:17]
David Mattson: I think it’s challenging in a couple of different ways. One is, I think, we’ve learned our product knowledge and we haven’t really learned how to ask open-ended questions because it’s high risk. Because I don’t know your answer. I don’t know, I don’t feel 100% comfortable that I know every single piece of information about my product and service. So, I would like to spew my product knowledge. It gives me confidence and conviction. And I feel good about that because that’s what I was taught by my company versus “You know, Nancy, I got a lot to cover here today. Just out of curiosity, what are the two or three things you want to ask me today? And I’ll make sure I cover those”. Now I, that’s high risk for people who like, well, I don’t know what she’s going to ask me. I mean, how would I, how would I do that? And I think that’s one, right? So, it’s that insecurity. It’s that I was taught product knowledge. The second, I think thing that goes on is really ego. What I mean by that is I feel good about being the expert in the product, right? But really that doesn’t solve it. If you think about doctors and good salespeople are doctors. The doctor comes in and they’re super smart, but they say “Nancy, why’d you come in today? Tell me a little bit about the problem that you’re experiencing”. They ask questions, right? [11:41] The value of a salesperson is determined by the information you gather not dispense, right? If you think about that. Because of that, if I use the doctor analogy if I were to go in, the other doctor doesn’t do that. They say, Nancy, thanks for coming in today. Hey, before you say a word, let me show you, my diplomas. Let me tell you about the universe that I went through. And I am at the top of my class. Let me show you the tools that I use when I operate. And I do this data dump and you’re like, who cares? Let me tell you about me because people want to tell you about their problems, right? And I think that’s the difference and its maturity that happens that way. But I think if you’re taught, certainly we teach that in Sandler, I think you can do that a lot faster, a lot easier without the 20 years of pain to learn, ask questions, don’t go in with a preconceived idea, seek to understand all the things that you’ve heard as you grew up. The one-liners, I think, you know, we all know what they are, they all apply to sales. And I think that’s some of the things that we have challenges on. [12:42]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, going back to what you stated that many of your clients wish they put their kids through Sandler early on, I’m also in that court. And I know recently you’ve become part of the college curriculum. Is that correct?
David Mattson: Yeah, so we have a couple of dozen universities using Sandler. I know the MBA program at Harvard, I mean, lots of them are using Sandler in lots of different ways. One is, you know, they’re teaching Sandler, which is great. Others are doing bronze certification where we’re certifying college students that they understand the Sandler methodology. And of course, we help them get jobs. [13:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Yup.
David Mattson: But think about the profession of sales, Nancy. I mean are more people in sales than in any other profession. It’s the highest-paid profession, but until recently, and I would even argue still today, it’s being treated when you don’t get a job anywhere else, there’s always sales. I mean, really, it’s the last stop before total unemployment. And in reality, you know, I’m going to college for an engineering degree or an architectural degree when in, you know 8 out of 10 of us are going to go into sales, why wouldn’t we learn that skill? And I think that’s really where people are starting to catch up over the last 10 years.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, you know, I say this to everyone. Everyone is in sales.
David Mattson: Right.
Nancy Calabrese: They may not like to admit it, but when they want to persuade their partner to go to a movie, that’s selling, right?
David Mattson: Yes.
Nancy Calabrese: Same thing, you know, in business. Dave Trapani is our Sandler trainer, and we’ve worked with him for many years, and he and I have a podcast where we talk about the Sandler rules in like four minutes and less, and we love it. So, we each give our own definition of what a rule means. But maybe you can describe them to the audience. And I think Dave told me they’ve recently changed. [14:41]
David Mattson: So, we have rules for salespeople, and we have rules for sales leaders. And again, I go back to, you can read a 400-page book on selling. Or what we’ve done is we’ve said, look, again, Sandler teaches the way to think, not necessarily what to say. So, if you have things like, there are quick rules, like don’t spill your candy in the lobby, all that simply means is go in and seek to understand. So, they’re catchy phrases, so you’ll remember them, but they apply to so many different scenarios in a selling situation versus a script that fits into one particular area. So when you learn the rule, if I were to say, okay, instead of just showing up and throwing up product knowledge, why, which is spilling your candy everywhere, like, hey, thanks for inviting me in. Hey, do you have a… I’d love to show you, my deck. I’ve got 700 slides. You’re going to love it, Nancy. You’re really going to love it. Let me give you some Velcro to strap yourself in case you fall asleep. Then I’m off and running, right? This is, hey, look, why don’t we find out some of the challenges? Because the buyer just wants to know, do you understand my issue? I feel comfortable that I trust that you do understand and that you do have a solution. [16:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: And I think that’s where, so that rule as an example would help me, whether it’s a new person enters in a sales call midstream, and I’ve got to go backward in time, whether it’s a first call, it happens in a lot of different scenarios. And I think then that really helps their page and a half, you know, each rule, it gives you a lot to think about. You can use it in your personal life. You could use it in your professional life. And we, again, have them for sales and we have them for leaders. Now what Dave was talking about is that the buyer journey has changed dramatically. We’ve just updated some of the rules as we go along just to make them more relevant. But Nancy, the rules that you and I have gone through since the beginning of time, they’re still there because quite frankly, yes, the buyer journey has changed, but conversational selling really hasn’t changed that much if we’re being honest with each other. [16:54]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So, I opened the program. It’s all about human conversation. And it amazes me how many people hide behind social media emailing. And they are horrified by picking up a phone and having a conversation with a stranger. I just don’t get that. And in all that. And I’ll share this with you, you know, in the weekly mastery classes, and we have some great sales professionals, I would say 99% of them hate picking up the phone to make the cold call. I don’t get it.
David Mattson: Yeah. Well, I mean, if you think about it, first of all, no one wants to be rejected. If we even go back to, you know, and I’ll age myself here. We had school dances, you know, did I want somebody to hold up a sign and say Dave, please come ask me to dance? Yeah, because I was afraid to go over there and say, would you dance with me? Because I didn’t want to be rejected, you know? [17:50]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: So that’s certainly there. And I think, you know, my parents, God bless them destroyed me as a salesperson to a certain extent because we had rules growing up to be, to protect me. It’s like, don’t talk about money. That’s rude. Don’t speak unless spoken to. Don’t talk to strangers. Respect your elders. And now I go into sales. I’ve got to talk about money as quickly as possible. I’ve got to talk to strangers. And I’ve got to have equal business stature to somebody who’s twice my age and makes twice the amount of money. And I’m like, wow, the first 18 years of my life, I was told not to do that. And now I’m pushed into this thing, not realizing that, hey, you know what? The top pros get rejected 80% of the time. So, it’s the norm. It’s the norm. But I feel like a loser when I hear a no versus, OK, some do, some don’t. Let’s move on. It’s OK. [18:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
David Mattson: And I just didn’t grow up that way.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Yep. I totally agree with you. You must take the personal out of it. And it’s just a business conversation and move on and don’t dwell on those that are, you know, just not making the decision. I see that a lot. I can’t believe we’re up in time and I could go on forever. How can my audience find you?
David Mattson: Well, you can certainly connect with me on LinkedIn. You can go to Sandler.com and find us and, Nancy, if any of your listeners want to jump in on one of Dave’s programs, I’m sure we can work that out as my guest, you know, sit in, and really experience what you’ve experienced over the years and 50,000 other people each year. That’s how many we train experience are welcome to participate as my guest. Happy to do it.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, wonderful. Well, we’re going to take you up on that for sure. So, a huge thank you. I’ve been looking forward to this for a long time, especially when I saw you at the summit.
David Mattson: I know it’s awesome.
Nancy Calabrese: And by the way, why don’t you promote the summit before we wrap up? [19:52]
David Mattson: Yeah, so each year in March, and you certainly can find all the information on our website, we have, you know, whatever it is, 1,100 clients and people who know Sandler, who are just learning about Sandler come down to Florida and we have two days of just rock and sock them programs for salespeople and for leaders. So, you can pick and choose three or four different programs happening every single hour. And it’s just amazing. Thanks for all your support. I see you there year after year.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, and I have to tell for all of the seasoned salespeople out there, it never gets old. Never, ever. You always walk away with a nugget or two and even maybe some new business. So, again, a huge thank you, and everyone take advantage of getting to know this guy. He’s great. He’s a straight shooter. Now, a D/C combo is kind of different, Dave. I have to say that, but I think you’ll appreciate his candor and certainly his wealth of knowledge. So, until we speak again, have an amazing sales day, and use those consultative selling skills. See you next time. [21:04]
