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Nancy Zare: The Importance of Knowing Your Own Style in Sales

by | Jul 16, 2024 | Podcast

About Nancy Zare: Dr. Nancy Zare is a sales psychologist, holding an MSW in Organizational Planning and Development and a Ph.D. in Social Work and Organizational Development from Boston College. She is also a founder of multiple ventures, including Rapport Builderz, which helps salespeople develop relationships with prospects that lead to new business, and the author of several books. She helps her clients learn the right words and know the right approach to attract new businesses without appearing “sales-y.” Using her knowledge of human behavior and experience in sales, she started Rapport Builderz, where she advises service-based entrepreneurs on how to prospect online, generate leads, open sales conversations, follow up, and get hired. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Nancy.

In this episode, Nancy and Nancy Zare discuss the following:

  • AlikeAbility System for turning prospects into clients
  • Four personality styles and how they influence communication and decision-making
  • Techniques for quickly identifying a prospect’s communication style
  • The intersection of psychology and sales
  • Use of spirituality to enhance communication and connection in sales
  • Emphasis on focusing on the buyer’s perspective rather than just the selling process

Key Takeaways: 

  • Once you know their style, you’re ready to connect their language quickly and authentically, which can translate into doing business together.
  • The more you understand how that buyer makes decisions, the better you can communicate with them in a language they understand and can embrace.
  • My focus is on how buyers buy, not how to sell.
  • Talk so your buyer says: “Wow, I feel comfortable with you!”

“I’ve discovered that there are four different ways that people are hardwired, and they communicate and make decisions based on one of four personality styles. And they actually coordinate with the quadrants of the brain. And so, when you speak to people in general, it turns out that you’re only connecting maybe 25 % of the time with someone. The other 75%, you’re not speaking their language. Hence, your words fall flat, and you’re not making connections. ” – NANCY

“I was born a psychologist. It’s true. My parents had a stormy marriage, and I was the youngest child, the only girl in this family. And I watched these adults and my older brothers. I mean, everybody was in a tizzy. And so, I was watching all of this, trying to figure out my place in this, you know, family. And it turns out that around the age of 10, I saw a TV show with an idea of how to get people to get along. So, I tried it on my folks. And I did, and they let me, which is a surprise, but I think it indicates, Nancy, just how distraught they were with their own relationship. Or maybe they saw something in their daughter that suggested I could help them. At the end of this conversation, I turned to my Dad; both parents were present, and both were native-born, English-speaking adults. I translated and said to my Dad, “This is what Mom needs you to do so she’ll feel loved.” And I turned to my Mom and said, “And this is what Dad needs for you to do so he will feel respected.” And notice the words changed, and that’s because Mom was the I in DISC. She was the one who needed lots of love, attention, you know, that sort of thing. And Dad was much more the S. He needed respect. He needed a system.” – NANCY

“Well, spirituality is definitely a big part of who I am. I may have majored in psychology, but I minored in philosophy. So, I’ve always been intrigued by understanding, you know, what’s the meaning of it all and, you know, what’s going on behind me. And, by the way, that’s very typical of the I. The I tends to be one of those, you know, thinking in the stratosphere and thinking about doing things of significance beyond self. And so, spirituality to me is important because it allows me to connect again in an authentic way, to bring my heart, not just my head, into the sales conversation. So, I bring all of me. Does that make sense?” – NANCY

Connect with Nancy Zare:

Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/

Connect with Nancy Calabrese: 

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.

Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today, we’re speaking with Nancy Zare, a certified sales trainer and a creator of the Likability system, where she shows service -based professionals how to turn over 50 % of prospects into clients. Nancy is a sales psychologist holding an MSW in organizational planning and development and a PhD in social work and organizational development from Boston College. She is also a founder of multiple ventures, including Rapport Builders and that builders ends with a Z which helps salespeople develop relationships with prospects that lead to new business. She helps her clients learn the right words and know the right approach to attract new business without appearing salesy. Welcome to the show, Nancy. I’m so excited to have you and I love that I’m speaking with another Nancy.

Nancy Zare: Well, me too, Nancy. It is delightful. So, audience, all you have to do is think Nancy and you got it right. [1:37]

Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Why don’t we jump into this? What are the right words and the right approach to attract new business? What have you discovered?

Nancy Zare: So I’ve discovered that there are four different ways that people are hardwired and they communicate and make decisions based upon one of four personality styles. And they actually coordinate with the quadrants of the brain. And so, when you speak to people in general, it turns out that you’re only connecting maybe 25 % of the time with someone. The other 75%, you’re not speaking their language. Hence your words fall flat and you’re not making connections. Have you found that to be true too? [2:27]

Nancy Calabrese: Well, I know that there are four different communication styles and the trick in sales is to pick up what the prospect’s communication style is and match it as best as you can.

Nancy Zare: Perfect. That’s exactly what I excel in. And I help my clients figure out the other person’s, their prospect’s style in a short minute. And once you know their style, like you said, Nancy, now we’re ready to speak their language, connect quickly and authentically, which then can translate into doing business together. [3:03]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So how do you teach them? How can they pick it up so quickly?

Nancy Zare: So here are the six different ways that we go over. The first is how are people dressed? People dress differently based upon their style. As you know, there’s someone who’s flamboyant and looks like a peacock and looks like they want your attention. And then there’s the person who’s very receding and they’re very modest. And then there’s the person who’s classic, right? They’re wearing exactly the right outfit. And then unfortunately there’s the person who doesn’t care and they may look a little rumpled or out of date. So right away, those are the four styles. [3:43]

Nancy Calabrese: Okay. And so give me an example of the right word for somebody that doesn’t care.

Nancy Zare: So the person who doesn’t care tends to care a lot about content and a lot about information. They like to geek out on content. And hence, you want to talk about information. You want to give them data and statistics, explanation, science, logic. This is the person who usually cares more about ROI, return on investment. Hence, you want to explain how investing in your service, or your product will net them more value over the long run. That is the, I don’t care what I look like, buyer. [4:29]

Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Interesting. Are you familiar with disc?

Nancy Zare: I sure am.

Nancy Calabrese: Yep. So, would you describe that persona to be a C compliance.

Nancy Zare: Yes, Nancy, you and I. C for Calabrese, right? Right.

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Well, give us examples of the other quadrants.

Nancy Zare: OK, so the D, which is driver in the disk term. This is the person who is that peacock he wants or she wants to be noticed. Take a look at me. I look tremendous. And they take close attention to what they wear. And by the way, they probably have a closet just for their shoes. And then we’ve got the I. An I, the disc is that person who is very influential and chatty and talkative and they enjoy people. And this person is more crunchy granola. They like to wear casual, comfortable clothing. They tend to go towards the pastel colors towards earth tones, slip on shoes and love to be comfortable. And then finally, our number six is that tasteful conservative person who is dressed just a little bit more formally than the Cajun might acquire because they of course want to do what’s right. [5:55]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Really interesting. So when did you become a psychologist?

Nancy Zare: I was born a psychologist. It’s true. My parents had a stormy marriage, and I was the youngest child, the only girl in this family. And I watched these adults and my older brothers. I mean, everybody was in a tizzy. And, and so I was watching all of this, trying to figure out my place in this, you know, family. And, and it turns out that around the age of 10, I saw a TV show in which there was an idea of how to get people to get along. So, I tried it on my folks. And I didn’t, and they actually let me, which is a surprise, but I think it indicates, Nancy, just how distraught they were with their own relationship. Or maybe they saw something in their daughter that suggested I could help them. At the end of this conversation, I turned to my dad, both parents were present, and both were native born speaking, you know, English speaking adults. I translated and I said to my dad, this is what mom needs for you to do so she’ll be loved. And I turned to my mom, and I said, and this is what dad needs for you to do so he will be respected. And notice the words changed and that’s because mom was the number, was the I in DISC. She was the one who needed lots of love, attention, you know, that sort of thing. And dad was much more the S. He needed respect. He needed a system. [7:31]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Holy cow. So how do you combine psychology with sales? I think sales is all about psychology, but what are your thoughts on it?

Nancy Zare: You know, I totally agree with you. And, you know, I’m sure that the listeners are also thinking about it too, because the more you understand how that prospect, how that buyer makes decisions the better you’re able to communicate with them in a language that they understand and can embrace. And so I backdoored into selling. Nancy, I’m like you, I have to tell you, I’m not a maven when it comes to selling. I struggled, I did okay, but I wasn’t doing as well as I wanted to. Turns out the government paid for my graduate studies and they wanted me to learn how to implement mental health services in the workplace, which was a great combination for someone studying psychology. But as it turned out, when I graduated, you can’t implement a program until it’s sold. And that’s how I found myself in a sales position, having to sell businesses on the concept of supporting the mental health of their workers. Right. [8:48]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. You know, I’m looking at your background. You have a lot of organizational experience, right? Planning, development, but where did psychology fill in, you know, become a part of this?

Nancy Zare: you can’t possibly work with people without the psychology piece, right? So I majored in psychology as an undergrad. As far as I can tell, social work and organizational development is all about understanding people and hence psychology. [9:23]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Talk about your, I guess, product line, a likeability system. What is that about?

Nancy Zare: I’m glad you asked. And by the way, for people listening, it’s not likeability, which is about popularity. It’s alike. It’s having your prospects say to themselves, wow, we’re on the same page, you’re talking words that I understand, hence we’re alike. And so, the likeability system is a skill that raises the feelings, the thoughts within the other person, your prospect, that you get me, we’re alike. [10:03]

Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Well, describe the system and what do you do with this?

Nancy Zare: Well, I have a recipe, a formula that people can follow. And it starts with identifying the four different styles. The second is to know your own style. Why is that? Because why is that important? Because we tend to sell the way we buy. We project onto the prospect the way we make decisions. And remember, there are four styles. Hence, only one out of four times are we going to be correct. And maybe even less than that because, you know, people are kind of a mixture of all styles. That’s the step two then is know yourself. Step three is to diagnose the other person. And as I mentioned, we do it by looking at how they dress, how they speak, how they write, how they post on social media, how they behave, so forth. The fourth step is now when you need to shift, deliberately shift and consciously think about and say the words or do the things that will allow that person to say, wow, you get me, we’re alike. And then, and by the way, you’re not changing yourself. You’re just using the words, the terms that connect authentically with your prospect. And the last, and the last step is you got to downplay or even rein in the parts of yourself that are not matched to your prospect so that you stay in rapport. [11:30]

Nancy Calabrese: Did we discuss, I don’t think we discussed the buying styles. Did you share them earlier?

Nancy Zare: Well, the buying styles, like you said, disc is the person, is the personality system you’re familiar with. Right. As it turns out after 35 years of research, not my own, but colleagues, these four styles can be identified by the number of contacts that they need before making a decision. And contacts include video conference call, phone calls, emails, other kinds of digital communication. But of course, the most effective communication is real time communication. And so, we’ve labeled them two, four, six, and eight. Our D is the number two. They take only one, at most two contacts. Whereas the C is eight. They take eight or more contacts, turn the eight on its side, it’s the symbol for infinity. So yeah, two, four, six and eight, that’s how I call the buying styles. [12:40]

Nancy Calabrese: What’s your buying style?

Nancy Zare: Well, I’m a combination of all of them, just like we all are, but I’m very much a high eye. Did you not know, Nancy, I’m a high I? As you are, of course. I’m also a high D. I bet you are too. Yep. Yep. I’m a D. I. Well, I’m an I. D. But I’m also an I. D. C. My C is very high as well. So I’m one of those rare birds that scores high on three out of four dimensions.

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Wow. And so we tapped on this too. Figuring out somebody’s buying style is about how they dress, the words that they choose to use, their ability to stay zoned in a conversation, right? A D person has no patience. They just want to get it done. Get it done.

Nancy Zare: That’s right. That’s right. Get it off my plate, bottom line. What are you going to do for me? Right.

 

Nancy Calabrese: How do you use spirituality to communicate better and why does that come into play?

Nancy Zare: Well, spirituality is definitely a big part of who I am. I may have majored in psychology, but I minored in philosophy. So, I’ve always been intrigued by understanding, you know, what’s the meaning of it all and you know, what’s going on behind me. And by the way, that’s very typical of the I. The I tends to be one of those, you know, thinking in the stratosphere and thinking about doing things of significance beyond self. And so, spirituality to me is important because it allows me to connect again on an authentic way to bring my heart, not just my head into the sales conversation. So, I bring all of me. Does that make sense? [14:45]

 

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I don’t really think much about spirituality as it relates to communication personally.

Nancy Zare: Yeah, it’s a way to feel connected heart to heart. So for example, you and I are right now we are connected on this di ID level, right? Right. Because we both have this high energy and this we care about people. I mean, you wouldn’t I mean, you you created this podcast. Nancy, because of the fact that you want to serve others and you want, obviously, for people to recognize who you are and your contributions. [15:19]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah. Well, actually, I did it during COVID. I had to figure out a way to keep in front of my audience. It’s one of the best decisions I’ve made because I’ve met so many wonderful people, including you, Nancy. And I learned during each and every podcast something new. What is your unique idea that is different and sets you apart, Nancy?

Nancy Zare: So my focus is on how buyers buy, not how to sell. And so, I’ve talked to a lot of people in sales, coaching, training, consulting. And you can think about it too, Nancy. Most people are approaching it from the point of view of what the seller needs to do. How do we start a conversation? How do we develop the relationship? How do we overcome objections and so forth? Well, I’m presenting it from the point of view of your buyer. Talk so your buyer listens. Talk so your buyer says, wow, I feel comfortable with you. You get me and hence we can do business together. So, I think that’s how I’m different from others. [16:33]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.

Nancy Zare: That I think would be impossible because there’s, you know, people are contrarians and all that kind of stuff. But what do I, well, you know, nothing’s really popping into my mind right away, Nancy. Sorry, I’m sorry about that. [16:58]

Nancy Calabrese: No, that’s fine. You know, maybe it will pop in later and you can get back to me. And then finally, is there anything in particular you want to spotlight in this discussion?

Nancy Zare: Well, I want the people listening, your audience to really think about the fact that it isn’t about me when you walk into a sales conversation, it’s about your prospect. And the more you can get yourself out of the equation and focus on supporting and helping them, the more likely it will be that you’re rendering a good service. And even if the person chooses to, you know, not not buy your product or service immediately. The fact that you have listened to them, asked good questions, helped them focus on what, you know, to help them better articulate and understand what the problem is. And you’re offering a solution even if they didn’t, you know, go ahead and accept it. You have done them a service. And so if people take nothing else away from this, I would encourage you. Focus on the other person, take yourself out of the equation, you know, and maybe that’s also the message that’s a little different than what other people say as well. [18:17]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah. And so when somebody engages your services, how much time do they need to really get the light bulb to go off to have this become natural?

Nancy Zare: That’s a great question because again, two, four, six, and eight. Our aides need to take a deep nosedive into the subject matter and learn it all. And so for them, you know, they’ve got to plunge in. Our two, on the other hand, again, the D from the desk, they don’t actually want to learn it. They would prefer a done -for -use system, which is what I offer. And so rather than any light bulbs going off for them, the light bulb is, I got the client. They signed up. And so, you know, for them that light bulb can happen within one contact, two contacts of our getting together. [19:11]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow, amazing. You’re a fascinating lady, Nancy. You know, I can’t believe we’re up with time. How can my audience find you?

Nancy Zare: Well, they can certainly go to my website and LinkedIn, Nancy Zare, and the last name rhymes with care, it’s spelled Z for the last letter of the alphabet, Z -A -R -E. Or go to Nancy Zare at LinkedIn, linkedin .com slash in slash Nancy Zare. I love it.

Nancy Calabrese: You’re the sales whisperer.

Nancy Zare: I am. And again, I don’t know any other whispers out there, do you? [19:51]

Nancy Calabrese: No, I know you.

Nancy Zare: There you go.

Nancy Calabrese: All right. Well, folks, what a fun discussion. And you know, Nancy really brings to mind the importance of understanding your prospects communication style. Take advantage of her expertise if you want to up your sales. I mean, if you have a chance to close 50 % more of your business, what’s holding you back? So, Nancy, you were a wonderful guest and perhaps we can do this another time, but I really appreciate you being on the show.

Nancy Zare: And likewise, your lucky audience, you’ve got a gem here. Keep following Nancy.

Nancy Calabrese: To everyone out there, make it a great sales day and we’ll see you next time. [20:39]

 

 

Ryan Pollyniak: The Art of Qualifying Prospects in Enterprise Sales

by | Jun 20, 2024 | Podcast

About Ryan Pollyniak: Ryan Pollyniak is a Cloud Transformation Executive at Western Computer, a Microsoft Gold Partner specializing in Microsoft Dynamics 365 Cloud solutions. Ryan is a seasoned sales professional with a rich background in the Microsoft Dynamics space. Before joining Western Computer in 2015, Ryan spent significant time with an ISV (add-on solution) in the Microsoft Dynamics ecosystem, working closely with partners to sell products to companies using Microsoft Dynamics. Catering to medium- to enterprise-sized businesses, Ryan is well-versed in ERP and CRM strategies and is heavily involved in the Microsoft Dynamics Channel. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Ryan.

In this episode, Nancy and Ryan discuss the following:

  • Understanding ISVs in the Microsoft Dynamics Space 
  • Aligning sales and marketing strategies for success
  • Prioritizing ideal prospects and avoiding shotgun approaches 
  • The importance of transparency and alignment in sales conversations
  • Critical strategies for ensuring customer satisfaction in complex engagements 
  • The role of CRM in organizational success

Key Takeaways: 

  • Building that network in a closed ecosystem is a continuous act. 
  • You can never let your ego or feelings get in the way of treating people correctly because they will come back around.
  • If you sell people things that they don’t need, it’ll come back to bite you.
  • We’re not satisfied if we don’t have a satisfied customer at the end of an engagement.

“And there’s a great book out there called Essentialism that focuses on how well some organizations have done that in the past to great effect. So, when taking that line of thought, you want to ensure that your marketing messaging and target audience align with the projects you want to bring in as an organization and what you want your salespeople to follow up on. Otherwise, you end up with a shotgun approach of, you know, getting all kinds of leads in terms of high volume and high quantity, but maybe not particularly the type of companies that you would want to be working with. And that leads to your salespeople getting frustrated, sorting through endless low-value leads. There’s a huge cost to that organization.” – RYAN

“I don’t try to convince people very much, which sounds a little bit silly in a sales scenario, but I’m not a big believer in really trying to persuade as much as I am trying to help prospective clients understand once I’ve identified that we have a good fit and I understand what the client is looking for. It’s really about explaining that and making sure that they understand why I am in the position I’m in with all my experience in this industry and why I think the solution is a good fit. And I’ve had people tell me right out of the gate, ‘We’re trying to narrow down prospective vendors. Give me the short story; why should I go with you guys?’ And I say, my answer to that, Nancy, is, and it takes people back sometimes, is, ‘I don’t know that we are the right fit yet. Can we talk a little bit more?'” – RYAN

“Be honest with people and do what you’re good at. Don’t try to be all things to everyone, and keep yourself organized in your CRM. That’s critical. If your boss is asking you to update CRM or if you’re the boss and you’re asking people to update CRM, I’m a big believer in systems. Nobody—I can’t speak for everybody, but I can’t keep everything straight in my head or on paper. I need systems, I need reminders, I need processes. And I think any good salesperson is going to follow those. Any good sales organization will have best practices established in terms of how to use the system and get the most out of it. So don’t fight CRM. It is there to help.” – RYAN

Connect with Ryan Pollyniak:

Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
  

Connect with Nancy Calabrese: 

Carlos A. Alvarenga: The Art and Science of Persuasion

by | Jun 19, 2024 | Podcast

About Carlos A. Alvarenga: Carlos A. Alvarenga is an independent researcher, writer, and coach. His new book, “The Rules of Persuasion: How the World’s Greatest Communicators Convince, Inspire, Lead—and, Sometimes, Deceive” (Post Hill Press, 2023), not only explains how persuasion works in all forms of human communication but also presents a clear and effective model that can be used in both personal and professional lives. Before his current roles, Carlos was the Executive Director of World 50 Labs, the member-innovation team at World 50, Inc. Before that, he served as a Principal in Ernst & Young’s Advisory Practice and as a Managing Director at Accenture. Additionally, he was an adjunct professor at the Robert H. Smith School of Business at the University of Maryland. Currently, Carlos is pursuing his Ph.D. in language, writing, and rhetoric at the University of Maryland. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Carlos.

In this episode, Nancy and Carlos discuss the following:

  • What motivated Carlos to become an expert in persuasion
  • Importance of defining persuasion and its application in leadership
  • The impact of persuasion on sales effectiveness
  • The distinction between coercion, manipulation, and persuasion
  • The potential for persuasion to be used for both good and evil
  • Exploring the dark side of persuasion with historical examples

Key Takeaways: 

  • It’s hard to be good at something you can’t define.
  • Persuasion is a fundamental human activity.
  • Persuasion is getting someone to willingly, rationally, and ultimately control their faculties and accept that what you say is true.
  • And the opposite of persuasion is coercion. If I explain to you why doing something is a good thing, that’s persuasion. If I trick you, that’s manipulation.

“I explained in the book that if we take these three modes—character, argument, and emotion—we can divide each into seven elements. So, the seven parts of character include, for example, the language you use, your history, where you come from, and these kinds of things. There are seven elements of argument: evidence, logic, and witnesses. Then, there are seven kinds of emotion: positive, negative, contemplative, etc. When I had these 21 elements, I needed a metaphor to help clarify it for me and the reader. I went back to high school chemistry and said, it’s like a periodic table. Every message I’ve ever looked at, and I’ve looked at thousands, combines these 21 elements. So that’s step one. It’s like learning chemistry, right, Nancy? First, start with elements like carbon, hydrogen, and whatever else you will use. Then, you learn some very simple formulas. Learn the elements that work for you, which ones you feel comfortable working with, and which you like to work with, and then start putting them to work. Within an hour of coaching, I’ve seen people become better at this because they now understand that if they use their origin as one of the elements, people will want to believe them more.” – CARLOS

“Logic is one of the seven elements of argument, so it’s on the periodic table. It certainly can be used, right? And people who are doctors and scientists often use logic to persuade. We have broadly spoken about two types of education. If you want to use logic, you can become a philosopher, right? And become a logician and get a PhD in logic. You can become a lawyer. Lawyers also get trained in the use of logic to persuade. But it’s one of the 21 elements. We are often persuaded, and we are more often persuaded, I think, by other things. Because you must go to specialized schools to use argument well, most people are not experts at it, either in creating or receiving logical persuasion. So, we tend to be persuaded more by character, for example, or emotion. They operate in different ways. And so, logic is certainly helpful. But I always challenge executives. I say I want you to start persuading me using nothing but logic—strict, well-constructed, internally consistent, effective logical sequences. And if you can make it to three minutes, I’ll give you a prize. Unless you’re a professional, you can’t. Most people fall apart after about a sentence and a half.” – CARLOS

“Let’s start with the fact that persuasion is predictable. Yeah, I can tell you how someone will, what form of listening they’ll use most of the time, and whether it’ll be effective. And sometimes it’s like magic. I work, coach, and say, I want you to change these two or three things you just told me. And the effect is dramatically different. I’ve had people break into tears when they finally get the message right. And they think it’s something that’s special. And I say, it’s not. You wouldn’t be amazed if you went to a chemist and the chemist made you aspirin. Don’t be amazed. I’m just following the rules. And if you follow the rules, more often than not, exactly what should happen will happen, just like with real chemistry.” – CARLOS

Connect with Carlos A. Alvarenga:

Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/

Connect with Nancy Calabrese: 

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.

Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Carlos Alvarenga, an independent communications researcher, writer and coach. His new book, The Rules of Persuasion, explains exactly how persuasion works in all forms of human communication. Using insights and examples from art to history, to literature, to hip hop, his book updates and expands ideas first presented in Aristotle’s rhetoric, adding original observations regarding the role of the audience in persuasion, persuasion in social media, as well as what happens when the rules of persuasion are used to deceive and corrupt audiences. That’s awful. Welcome to the show, Carlos.

Carlos Alvarenga: Nancy, it’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having been on your show. [1:20]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I’m just curious, how did you get involved, you know, and your, how did you focus on persuasion? What motivated you to become an expert in it?

Carlos Alvarenga: So, a few years ago, I left my consulting and business career and I wanted to write. So, I sit down to write a novel. And at the same time, I decided to volunteer with nonprofits because when you write full -time, it tends to be a little bit of a lonely job. You’re working by yourself. Most of the time, I thought it’d be fun to volunteer. And I went on a website that matches volunteers with nonprofit leaders. And the very first project I was matched with was a gentleman, very senior gentleman in Europe who leads a phenomenal global disaster relief organization. And his challenge was, help me, I need to be a better communicator. I ordered some books on what I thought was persuasion. And when I got them, I realized they really weren’t about persuasion. They were about influence or psychology or selling. And I was looking for a book on that topic. I remembered a book that I wrote in college called The Rhetoric by Aristotle. I dusted it off, turned it into a PowerPoint, took this gentleman through this book. It worked wonderfully. We did a second project together. A year later, I had done a dozen and my wife said, you really should write this down. You’ve done a nice job of explaining Aristotle and updating it for our modern audience. And so I took on that project and three years later, because publishing is a slow business. Last fall the book arrived and it’s called The Rules of Persuasion. [2:55]

Nancy Calabrese: Well, congratulations. So why is it so important to define persuasion?

Carlos Alvarenga: Well, I start with that with people like Coach because I say it’s hard to be good at something you can’t define. Right. If you can’t tell me what baseball is, you’re going to have a really hard time being a very good baseball player, I think. And so, the idea is that one reason we struggle is that we haven’t thought about what persuasion really is. And so, we start with Aristotle’s definition, which is the demonstration that something is true or that appears to be true. And I give people a common language and framework to think about this. And I find that even just having a definition and a common way of thinking about this already can help make you a more persuasive communicator. [3:40]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So why is persuasion important for leaders?

Carlos Alvarenga: Well, almost every time we talk to people, we want them to agree about something, right? And it is a fundamental human need that we have to have others agree with us. And so, persuasion is the means by which we affect that outcome. And so, if you want others to agree, and you’re not doing it by force or manipulation, which is not what persuasion is, then you have to use this set of techniques in order to achieve the goals you have, whether it’s to lead a company, teach a class, lead a nation. Almost every profession that you can think of requires at some point, except maybe being king, to persuade people about many different things. It’s a fundamental human activity. [4:30]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, talk about persuasion as it relates to sales.

Carlos Alvarenga: Right, so this is a key thing. When we are selling, as we know, because we’ve seen people who are good and people who are not so good, I think the best-selling is one that persuades. The not so good selling is one that manipulates or tricks. And so ideally, we want to, I think, a customer to willingly purchase what we’re offering them. And that makes the best transaction. And so that’s where persuasion enters the picture because persuasion is getting someone to willingly, rationally, in full control of their faculties, accept what you say is true as true. And people sometimes ask me, what’s the relationship between my book and books like Cialdini’s book on influence or great books on selling? And I say, my book is about the chemistry of persuasion. And so, and that’s the point I make in the book, persuasion is chemistry with language. So, it is one step before those books, right? Those books, I think with them as medicine, which are applying the rules to specific situations like negotiation and selling. I think of my book as a little bit more fundamental. It is the thing that underlies, right, great books or classes you may have taken on negotiation or selling. [5:54]

Nancy Calabrese: So, is persuasion something that’s innate within people or is it a skill that can be learned and cultivated?

Carlos Alvarenga: I certainly think that it’s both, right? In fact, in Aristotle’s book, he says persuasion is a word called technē. We would spell it T -E -C -H -N -E, technē. We get the word technē from. Technē is a Greek word that has no counterpart in English. So, you’ll sometimes you’ll hear it translated as the art of it, but it isn’t really an art. It’s actually a technical art or art with purpose. And so that means that it does that it can that it depends on rules, and it has technique. But someone with natural talent can make it even better. Right. So there are great communicators who’ve never studied persuasion. But anyone can get better, I think, if they do understand the technique. It’s all like music in a sense. Right. [6:51]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Well, I think anybody can get better in anything, right? If they make their mind, set their mind to do it. So, what are some of the traps to avoid and can attempts to persuade backfire?

Carlos Alvarenga: Well, I’ll tell you what I find when I coach people, right? So again, in my book, I explain, I re -explained what Aristotle said that there are three modes of persuasion. The character of the person speaking or the entity speaking, maybe it’s a school or a government. There are the arguments presented, things like facts and figures and evidence. And then there is the emotion the, what is felt by the audience as you communicate and when you’re done communicating. And so, what I find with people I coach is that especially executives in business, they, they over ly on the second that they, they, they, yeah, they, they overuse argument. In fact, I say persuasion, you can think of it as a ship with three, with three masses, but only one sale is up most of the time. So, what I tell people is let’s lower the argument sale because it’s hard to get right and people have a hard time following it. Let’s open the character sale. Let’s open the emotion sale. And people, for whatever reason, have come to the conclusion oftentimes that they shouldn’t be part of the story. And on the emotion, they either try to work with emotion, they couldn’t do it, or they don’t think it doesn’t belong in a context like business, but it does. And so you’re really leaving the two most and imagine the sales aren’t even equal size. The character is the biggest sale. Emotion is the next biggest and argument is the smallest. And that’s the one people have. So I say, let’s open the two, watch the ship go farther and faster. And with a lot less stress on the argument. Right. [8:35]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. So how long does it take for someone to really become more persuasive?

Carlos Alvarenga: I think it happens very quick. And I don’t think I know because I’ve watched the people I’ve coached. There are things you can do that would have you that would make you a more effective communicator within 30 minutes, within five. Right. And if you want to master it at a very high level, at an academic level, or as a, or as a, I’d say someone that you’re going to coach or teach or write about it. Sure. That takes a while, but as a communicator, there are simple things that I help people with that are just almost like mindset changes. If you get the problem from a different perspective, you suddenly get a much better message and a much better reaction from the audience. And I’ll give you an example. I asked people, I get called in to do like startup pitches and pitch decks and these kinds of things. And, and I, I’ll ask the question, okay, I’ve heard the pitch explain to me what emotion he, what made it feel now when you finished talking. And I tell you that people can’t. And I say, well, I’m going to feel something. Right. And so, if, if it’s, if you’re not in control, then it’s, then you’re leaving it up to chance. Why not pause for a moment and think about that? And if and if I can show you how to generate that emotion, you’re you’re already a much better communicator. [9:58]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So, if someone wanted to become more persuasive, how would they go about getting started?

Carlos Alvarenga: I think the, again, it’s where I wrote the book. I explained the book that if we take these three modes, right, character, argument, and emotion, we can divide each one into seven elements. So, the seven parts of character, like for example, the language you use, your history, where you come from, these kinds of things. Seven elements of argument, things like evidence, logic, witnesses. And then there are seven kinds of emotion, positive, negative, contemplative, et cetera. So when I had these 21 things, that’s what they added to like 21 things, I needed a metaphor to help clarify it for me and for the reader. And I went back to high school chemistry and I said, it’s kind of like a periodic table, right? And every message I’ve ever looked at, and I’ve looked at thousands, is some combination of these 21 things. So that’s step one. Understand the, it’s like learning chemistry, right Nancy? You first start with, there’s carbon, there’s hydrogen, it’s whatever else you’re gonna use, right? We’re gonna be working with today. And then you learn some very simple formulas. Learn the elements that work for you. Which ones do you feel comfortable working with? Which ones do you like to work with? And then start putting them to work. And like I said, within an hour, I’ve seen people, an hour of coaching and suddenly they’re better at this because they now understand, okay, if I use my origin as one of the elements, well, then you will want to believe me more. [11:31]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Wow. You know, I opened with some people use persuasion to deceive and corrupt audiences, which is horrible. Why do they do that? What is it, the dark side of it?

Carlos Alvarenga: Yeah, you know, the terrible side is this, right? Chemistry, again, the metaphor that runs throughout the whole book, is amoral, right? I can save your life with chemistry. I can take it with chemistry. And so, the same thing is true of the language version of chemistry, which is that in the right hands, language can build or save a nation, right? In the wrong hands, you can destroy one. And so unfortunately, history is full of examples of people who were very good at the chemistry of persuasion, who had terrible goals, terrible ideas, and created untold devastation because the power of persuasion fell into the wrong hands. [12:35]

Nancy Calabrese: Well, makes me think of Hitler.

Carlos Alvarenga: Well, this is actually the chapter nine in the book is an examination of the language of the Third Reich and the way in which the chemistry of language worked within the Nazi regime. And I describe nine specific formulations. And I say in the book, the reason I pick these nine is that all nine are present in American social and political discourse, indication that someone’s trying to poison us. [13:04]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow, still frozen? Wow, and it’s still present.

Carlos Alvarenga: Absolutely and increasing.

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Why is it increasing?

Carlos Alvarenga: Because society is becoming increasingly fragmented and polarized. So instead of seeing our opponents as wrong, we see them as evil in many cases. And then the next logical step is to say, well, if it’s evil, it must be destroyed. And I must convince you that the person who disagrees with us, right, us, is not just wrong, but bad. And that leads to corrupt applications. [13:38]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, what’s the difference between coercion and persuasion?

Carlos Alvarenga: Yeah, so coercion is getting someone to do something by force. Right. And so, to me, there’s coercion, manipulation, and persuasion as a kind of spectrum. And the opposite of persuasion is coercion. If I put a gun to your head and say, you must do this, then I’ve coerced you. If I explain to you why doing something is a good thing, you do it of your own free will, that’s persuasion. If I trick you, that’s manipulation. [14:10]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. And is persuasion fundamentally a logical process? And if so, can a logical people be truly persuaded?

Carlos Alvarenga: Logic is one of the seven elements of argument. So, it’s on the periodic table. It certainly can be used, right? And people who are doctors and scientists often use logic to persuade. In fact, we have broadly spoken two types of education. If you want to use logic, you can become a philosopher, right? And become a logician, get a PhD in logic. You can become a lawyer. Lawyers also get trained in the use of logic to persuade. But it’s one of the 21 elements we are often persuaded, and we are more often persuaded I think by other things. Because you must go to specialized schools to use argument well, most people are not experts at it. And so, either in creating or receiving logical persuasion. So, we tend to be persuaded more by character, for example, or emotion. They operate in different ways. And so, logic is certainly helpful. But I always challenge executives. I say, I want you to start persuading me using nothing but logic, strict, well -constructed, internally consistent, effective, logical sequences. And if you can make it to three minutes, I’ll give you a prize. Unless you’re a professional, you can’t. Most people fall apart after about a sentence and a half. [15:45]

Nancy Calabrese: So, can you argue with crazy?

Carlos Alvarenga: You can argue, but it won’t do you any good. You can argue with anything, I suppose, right? The question is, is it a good use of your time? Right. I had a psychiatrist friend said to me one time, because you never engage crazy. And so, or worse that effect. But I would say you can talk to the irrational, right? But you’re not arguing with them. Yeah. Right. [16:15]

Nancy Calabrese: Does that kind of go anywhere? No, you’re not going to get anywhere. Yeah.

Carlos Alvarenga: But sometimes people feel good, right? People vent all the time on social media, not because they expect to change anyone’s mind, just because I guess they must get some kind of enjoyment out of stating their positions.

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh. Now I’ve heard that about ethos, pathos, and logos being important to persuasion, but what do they really mean?

Carlos Alvarenga: Well, that’s just it, right? The ethos, pathos, and logos are character, argument, and emotion. They’re the Greek words for these three things. And so, when I wrote the book, I didn’t want to use those words, because I’m writing in English. I’m not writing in Greek. So, I prefer terms, character, argument, and emotion. But they represent those terms. And you hear them mentioned a lot. What you don’t hear a lot is them explained in detail, because Aristotle doesn’t explain it in great detail. And that was really the point of my book was to allow someone to understand when we hear the term ethos translated often as character, what does it really mean? And what is the makeup of that? And that’s what the attempt of the book tries to do is to explain ethos, pathos, logos in a way that our modern audience would understand those concepts. Yeah. [17:29]

Nancy Calabrese: Huh. Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.

Carlos Alvarenga: Well, not yet hopefully. Let’s start with that persuasion is predictable. Yeah, I can tell you how someone will, what form of listening they’ll use most of the time, whether it’ll be effective or not. And sometimes it’s like magic. I work, coach, and I say, I want you to change these two or three things in which you just told me. And the effect is dramatically different. I’ve had people break into tears when they finally get the message right. And they think it’s something that’s special. And I say, it’s not. You wouldn’t be amazed if you went to a chemist and the chemist made you aspirin. Don’t be amazed. I’m just following the rules. And if you follow the rules, more often than not, exactly what should happen will happen, just like with real chemistry. [18:28]

Nancy Calabrese: Well, last question. So, a person is needing your guidance. What are some of their struggles? What are their pain points that would make them pick up the phone and give you a call?

Carlos Alvarenga: A typical thing is that they are over dependent on argument and haven’t thought about the other modes ever. Another thing might be that the message is not bad, but they have skipped a step. They forgot to ask themselves what must be true for this message to be effective. Another one would be that they, and this is probably the most common answer is that I’ll get a call saying, I’m nervous. I don’t like public speaking. I get agitated and I help, and I go, that’s not the problem. The problem is that the message isn’t right. And so, you’re nervous, not because you’re speaking in public, but because you’re delivering a message that you don’t fully comprehend or hasn’t been well developed. Watch, I say. If you still think after we’re done that you need mechanics, right, then you don’t have to pay me. But if I helped you, with the message and suddenly you feel comfortable, then you’ll realize that I was right. And I’ve never had the case where someone who I work with, to whom I said, it’s the message, not mechanics, that once the message was fixed, the mechanics went away by themselves. [19:56]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow. You know, I can’t believe we’re up in time. This is fascinating subject. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with and how can my people find you?

Carlos Alvarenga: The takeaway is it erased the idea that persuasion is a soft skill or that it’s some amorphous gift that some people have but don’t. It is chemistry, it is technique, and you can learn how to be much better at it by understanding how it works. And you can find me and reach me on my website, which is CarlosAlvarenga .com. There you can find out about current projects, future projects, and there’s also a way to reach out to me directly if you feel like you’d like. [20:38]

Nancy Calabrese: Great. Yeah, so alvaranga is spelled A -L -V -A -R -E -N -G -A. People, get in touch with this expert. You know, life is all about persuasion, you know? You want to…

Carlos Alvarenga: I think so, and it’s a fascinating topic, which is why I wrote the book.

Nancy Calabrese: It is. Whether you’re in business or you’re trying to get your kid to do something, I think it really would pay for you to have a one -on -one with Carlos. So, thanks so much for being on the show, Carlos. It was a lot of fun. And everyone out there, sharpen your persuasion skills, get in front of this guy, and it’s going to make you a better person no matter what role you have. So, until we speak. Make it a great sales day everyone out there and Carlos thanks again.

Carlos Alvarenga: Thank you, Nancy. Thank you, Mia. And thank you to your audience for listening. [21:33]

Hamish Knox: Lessons from a Sandler Guru

by | Jun 13, 2024 | Podcast

About Hamish Knox: Hamish Knox is a member of the global Sandler network. Hamish supports private organizations in Southern Alberta create and maintain a scalable, repeatable, consistent sales engines and an engaged, motivated team by holding them accountable to implementing the structures, systems, and processes shared in our sessions. Before joining the Sandler network, Hamish worked in various industries, including media, communication services, software, and professional sports, which melded his passions for sales and education. Hamish was named the 2020 David H. Sandler Award winner, Sandler’s highest honor, becoming the first Canadian trainer to receive that award. He was the first two-time author in the Sandler network, writing books on topics no one likes to talk about. His first book was on Accountability the Sandler Way, and his second on Change the Sandler Way. Sandler Home Office regularly invites Hamish to speak at Sandler’s train-the-trainer conferences and Sandler’s public Sales and Leadership Summit in Orlando. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Hamish.

In this episode, Nancy and Hamish discuss the following:

  • Hamish’s motivation to move to Sandler
  • The importance of having systems in place for success by design, rather than success by default, in sales organizations
  • Differentiating on how you sell, not what you sell
  • The value of David H. Sandler Award
  • Accountability and the fear of change in sales
  • The importance of making the conversation about the buyer and not about the seller’s needs

Key Takeaways: 

  • Without systems, it’s very much, you know, flying by the seat of your pants, which is a cliche that gets bandied about.
  • Sandler is not just about a bunch of cheesy lines or techniques or saying these seven things; you’ll always get the meeting or the order.
  • If we don’t have accountability, if we don’t have the boundaries defined, our salespeople are going to make it up.
  • I genuinely love what I do.

“You know, people, what’s the cliche about people fear three things: death, taxes, and change? Because our brains are wired to keep us safe, which usually means stuck. Because no matter where you believe that we all came from, whoever, you know, the listeners out there, wherever you believe that humanity emerged from, ultimately, our brains are still wired that way, right? Our brains are still looking for the lions and the saber-toothed tigers that are going to eat us. And so, ultimately, change used to mean that you died, or you went hungry, and then you died. So, you were dead, but you were just more or less full in your stomach when you died. And so, our brains are still back there. So, no one likes change. And the book Change the Sandler Way is really about the human side of change because, ultimately, Nancy, change is super simple. Like, it’s, we don’t have a CRM today, we do have a CRM tomorrow. That’s change. Human beings don’t change, they transition, and transition is almost like the five stages of grief. And so that book is all about how we support leaders who go through these same emotions well before their team members actually manage a successful change. I recently saw that 89% of all corporate change initiatives fail. Yeah, like it was a number that blew my mind. And you think about how many probable billions of dollars are spent on these initiatives from buying the product or service and having the team meetings and getting things going to have it fail that much. There’s got to be a better way.” – HAMISH

“Sandler is a number of things. So, number one, it’s about differentiating on how you sell, not what you sell. Because what we sell is a commodity in the minds of our buyers. It doesn’t matter what we’re selling. And the only way to differentiate a commodity is typically by price. And so, with Sandler, we seek to create clarity with our buyers. I was talking to a very, very successful entrepreneur yesterday. We’re in a mastermind group, and they were saying, well, what do you suggest I do? Because I’m the primary seller. And I said, well, let’s pretend I’m your client. What would you say to me when I say, well, what’s going to happen today, right? We booked a call. What’s going to happen today? And they’re like, well, you know, here’s our process for building out, you know, the services that we offer. And I said, well, that’s great. But what’s gonna happen to me now in this sales call? And he said, well, I don’t know. And I said, well, that’s a problem because no one wants to talk to a salesperson. And so, If we don’t create clarity upfront with our potential, with our buyers, all they’re thinking is when is Hamish going to ask for my wallet? They’re not actually listening. So, we need to create that clarity upfront using the upfront contract, and which is like a supercharged agenda for listeners who haven’t heard about it before. And then pain, humans are animals, biologically that’s true, biologically we’re animals and animals are wired to move away from pain or towards pleasure. There was a study done in Vegas, which is a great place to study both pain and pleasure, that pain was a five times greater motivator than pleasure. And a lot of people, when they hear that, they don’t wanna think about pain. And what I tell my clients is you’re never going to say pain to your buyer. You’re never gonna say, “Nancy, let’s talk about your pain with getting real qualified opportunities in the top of your funnel,” because you’re going to look at me like, “You went to a sales training class, didn’t you? You’ve got a shiny new toy you want to try out.” – HAMISH

“The one takeaway I want the audience to go with is it’s never about us, it’s always about the buyer. So, if the buyer calls up and goes, if we ring ring hello and the buyer goes, what, that’s not about us. And if the buyer says, well, why should I work with you? And you say, well, here’s some reasons why other people have worked with us. Are any of those relevant to you? So always making it about the buyer and never about us and getting our emotional needs met is very, very powerful.” – HAMISH

Connect with Hamish Knox:

Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/

Connect with Nancy Calabrese: 

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.

Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Hamish Knox, president of Sandler in Calgary. Hamish is a member of the Global Sandler Network and supports private organizations in Southern Alberta to create and maintain scalable, repeatable, consistent sales engines, and an engaged, motivated team by holding them accountable to implementing the structures, systems, and processes shared in our sessions, or in the sessions. Hamish plays an important role in Sandler’s worldwide organization and is recognized nationally and internationally as a business development expert specializing in executive sales consulting and sales productivity training. Well, as you all know, everyone, I’m a huge Sandler fan, so this is gonna be a great conversation. Welcome to the show, Hamish.

Hamish Knox: Thanks for having me, Nancy. [1:26]

Nancy Calabrese: You’re a lot of fun. So, this is going to be a fun discussion. So, I know you worked in other industries before Sandler. What motivated you to move to Sandler?

Hamish Knox: So, I actually had a sales training company off the side of my desk that was inspired by a couple of my clients at the time who were two partners in a public relations firm, and we were meeting for a quarterly review and they said, you know, we really wish we could do what you do. And I said, well, first define what is what you think I do as a salesperson. And they said, well, like, if you want us to call up the business editor of a national newspaper and pitch them on our client, we could do that all day long. But if you want us to call up the CEO of a local company and go, want some PR? That’s not something that we’re going to do. So I went, there might be something here. But what got me into Sandler was my last sales manager, his name is Gord. He’s thanked in my first book on accountability. We randomly decided to have dinner at the same Portuguese restaurant in Montreal. We were there for meetings. And I was catching up with him and he said, have you ever heard of Sandler? And I said, no. And he says, it’s really how you think and talk and act. And I said, thanks, I think. And that night I couldn’t sleep, I had jet lag, so I did some Googling and I found an article by Bill Bartlett, who was a colleague of mine in Sandler until he gracefully retired earlier this year. And it was like I walked into a church and God spoke to me. And I was like, how do I get more of this stuff? So that’s the short version of what prompted me to join Sandler. [3:04]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. You know, Sandler is all about having systems and why is it important to have systems in place?

Hamish Knox: Because without systems, it’s very much, you know, flying by the seat of your pants is a cliche that gets bandied about. Ultimately, it’s success by default instead of success by design is how I characterize it. There are plenty of great organizations, plenty of great individuals out there who are successful by default. And all that means is if we go to that individual and say, wow, you are super successful, how did you become the number one, whatever, or how did you get your company to be this big? They would be like, I stuff and things, I sold. And they would have no processes to fall back on. And for entrepreneurs who eventually wanna exit, they get a higher multiple if their sales engine is really built like Lego. And where we can pop the current owner out, we can pop Nancy in and the whole thing continues to grow in scale. [4:12]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, person joins the program. Typically, how long does it take a client to get it like the light bulb goes off?

Hamish Knox: Your mileage may vary. I had one client who had run a million-dollar commercial HVAC business for 10 years, doing a million dollars a year, the entire seller by themselves. Within the first six weeks of working with us, they had increased their revenue by $300 ,000, which, you know, that’s kind of material. There are some people who, it will take upwards of 12 months or even longer. And that’s ultimately because as you know, Nancy, Sandler is not just about a bunch of cheesy lines or techniques or say these seven things and you’ll always get the meeting or the order. It starts with our mindset. And as humans, we’re kind of committed to our worldviews. And so sometimes it takes a while for someone to go, I get it. In fact, I was just actually got an email from, a former client who I worked with for four years in my sales development program, and I was sharing with a new team member, I probably fought with them every week for the first six months they were working with us. And now they are one of our biggest fans and advocates. [5:43]

Nancy Calabrese: Why? Wow. Well, you know, I think, you know, for everyone out there in the audience, it’s you’re being trained to sound and speak differently, right? Up front contract, pattern interrupt, pain. Why don’t you talk about some of those areas of Sandler?

Hamish Knox: So, Sandler is a number of things. So, number one, it’s about differentiating on how you sell, not what you sell. Because what we sell is a commodity in the minds of our buyers. It doesn’t matter what we’re selling. And the only way to differentiate a commodity is typically price. And so, with Sandler, we seek to create clarity with our buyers. I was talking to a very, very successful entrepreneur yesterday. We’re in a mastermind group together and they were saying, well, what what do you suggest I do? Because I’m the primary seller. And I said, well, let’s pretend I’m your client. What would you say to me when I say, well, what’s going to happen today, right? We book a call, what’s going to happen today? And they’re like, well, you know, here’s our process for building out, you know, the services that we offer. And I said, well, that’s great. But what’s gonna happen to me now in this sales call? And he said, well, I don’t know. And I said, well, that’s a problem because no one wants to talk to a salesperson. And so, If we don’t create clarity upfront with our potential, with our buyers, all they’re thinking is when is Hamish going to ask for my wallet? They’re not actually listening. So, we need to create that clarity upfront using the upfront contract, and which is like a supercharged agenda for listeners who haven’t heard about it before. And then pain, humans are animals, biologically that’s true, biologically we’re animals and animals are wired to move away from pain or towards pleasure. There was a study done in Vegas, which is a great place to study both pain and pleasure, that pain was a five times greater motivator than pleasure. And a lot of people, when they hear that, they don’t wanna think about pain. And what I tell my clients is, you’re never going to say pain to your buyer. You’re never gonna say, Nancy, let’s talk about your pain with getting real qualified opportunities in the top of your funnel, because you’re going to look at me like, You went to a sales training class, didn’t you? You’ve got a shiny new toy you want to try out. [8:05]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, really. Well, listen, you were named in 2020, you were awarded the David H. Sandler Award. So, what did you do to win it?

Hamish Knox: So, what it says in the nomination requirements is, you know, grew a very successful business, which I am grateful for the trust of our clients, that they trust us to support them in sustainably scaling their sales. So, I’ve grown a very great business. I’ve grown a very incredible team here at Sandler Calgary. And as you read my bio, Nancy, I am remiss in not giving you an updated one, because I’m no longer the president of Sandler Calgary. We promoted my long -term associate, Nisha Berman, to president at the Sandler Summit in March in Orlando where we got to meet in person for the first time. So, I have a great team. And then supporting the network. And I tell all my colleagues in Sandler, I have an open phone policy. It doesn’t matter to me what role you are because Sandler has that concept of equal business stature, which I firmly believe in. So, anybody in the Sandler network, I am happy to support at any time. And the thing that was super special for me about the David H Sandler Award, I mean, first, it was the last event before everything shut down. Like it was, we were the last airplane to land at the Calgary airport before you had to quarantine for two weeks back in March of 2020. And the special thing for me was not only was this a nomination of my peers, so every year the Sandler Network nominates the people for David H. Sandler Award. It was also a vote of my peers. So, my peers globally actually not only nominated me, but they also named me. They selected me as the David H. Sandler Award recipient that year. I’m the only Canadian to have ever received that award, which is also very special. So, what I ultimately did, Nancy, is I lived the values that David Sandler set out about consistent, sustainably scalable sales growth and supporting as many people as I can. [10:31]

Nancy Calabrese: Wonderful, congratulations. And I know that you were the first two -time author in the Sandler Network writing books. And you say on topics no one likes to talk about. Accountability the Sandler way and the second one is changing the Sandler way. Why don’t people like to talk about these topics?

Hamish Knox: Well, let’s do the second one first. So change, right? You know, people, what’s the cliche about people fear three things, death, taxes, and change? Because our brains are wired to keep us safe, and that usually means stuck. Because no matter where you believe that we all came from, whoever, you know, the listeners out there, wherever you believe that humanity emerged from, ultimately our brains are still wired that way, right? Our brains are still looking for the lions and the saber -toothed tigers that are going to eat us. And so ultimately, change used to mean that you died, or you went hungry and then you died. So, you were dead, but you were just more or less full in your stomach when you died. And so, our brains are still back there. So, no one likes change. And the book, Change the Sandler Way, is really about the human side of change, because ultimately, Nancy, change is super simple. Like, it’s, we don’t have a CRM today, we do have a CRM tomorrow. That’s change. Human beings don’t change, they transition, and transition is almost like the five stages of grief. And so that book is all about how we support leaders who go through these same emotions well before their team members do actually manage a successful change. I saw a stat recently that like 89 % of all corporate change initiatives fail. Yeah, like it was a number that blew my mind. And you think about how many probable billions of dollars are spent on these initiatives from buying the product or service and having the team meetings and getting things going to have it fail that much. There’s got to be a better way. [12:40]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Why do you think it fails so much?

Hamish Knox: Well, because ultimately, and this is part of the first part of that book is as a leader, so let’s just say, Nancy, that you were going to change the compensation plan in your organization. It’s just easy example. Well, you go through all the change emotions when you go through that change, except you don’t just have a thought on Monday and say, we’re going to change the comp plan. And Monday afternoon, you’re in front of your team saying, team, here’s the new comp plan it’s going to take three, six, nine, 18 months to change. So, by the time that you roll it out to your team, you’ve forgotten, cause you’re human, that you went through those emotions. So, when you roll it out to the team and you don’t have a hundred percent of your team going, boss, great idea. Can’t imagine why we didn’t do this before. Your kind of like, well, hey guys, what the heck’s going on? You know, this is the way things are, but it’s because we as leaders, we went through those emotions so long ago that we are not prepared to support our team members when they’re going through the emotions when we make the announcement. [13:54]

Nancy Calabrese: Huh, talk about accountability.

Hamish Knox: It’s not punishment lapse. It’s not micromanaging. It’s not handcuffs. It’s, it’s freedom for me because accountability defines the playing field. And that’s something that I find lacks consistently in sales organizations, whether, you know, it’s got to be more than one because if there’s only one person selling in the organization, well, they define their own playing field. Once we start to build out a sales team and a sales organization, we typically do not as leaders define the playing field. And without those guardrails, those boundaries, those whatever’s that we want to label them, our team is running off in all sorts of different directions because they have no idea which way to go. It’s almost like I used to coach my eldest daughter when she turned four in soccer, and it wasn’t really coaching soccer. It was like rolling the ball out and letting them burn calories for an hour while their parents sat on the sidelines. And my eldest daughter, when she got the ball, it didn’t matter which direction the goal was. She was going to go in the direction the ball was going. So, if the ball was going perpendicular to the goal, she was gone. And it was great because she had fun. She loved it. However, not very productive for putting the ball in the net. And I appreciate at four years old, that’s not necessarily the goal. And it’s a good illustration of if we don’t have accountability, if we don’t have the boundaries defined, our salespeople are going to make it up. [15:34]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. That’s cute. So, you know, and I know you mentioned you and I met this year at the summit, and I don’t know how many times you’ve presented. You were fabulous. What do you gain from presenting at the summit?

Hamish Knox: So, my North Star, it’s on my vision board, which is just to the left of my computer that we’re recording on, is to create generational wealth for my daughters and I to enjoy now by supporting as many sales leaders and sellers as possible. And some people might react a little bit to that first part. And the fact of the matter is, that first part was added on like after the fifth or sixth iteration because I often don’t put myself first. I’m very much in that how can I support you model. And so, someone pointed out like, hey, that’s great Hamish, except if you can’t pay your bills, like how are you going to support people? Like, yeah, fair point. So that’s where I added that first part in. And my daily question is who did I support today? And what I get out of presenting at Summit is, I’m a bit of an entertainer. I think Nancy, you know that about me. So, I like being on stage. I did standup comedy in front of 700 people when I was 11 years old. So, I like being on stage. I like making people laugh. I like entertaining. And my goal is to support someone. So, what I get out of speaking at the summit is I get to live my North Star. I get to live my purpose every day. And I said this to a buyer this morning, I don’t work. I really don’t. Like yes, I’m a business. I do want to get paid. I do have visions and goals that require money to make them work, operate. And I love doing this stuff, Nancy. I love it. I genuinely love what I do. [17:32]

Nancy Calabrese: Well, that’s pretty darn obvious. And last question. I know Sandler recently revised their curriculum. Why was that?

Hamish Knox: Mm -hmm. So ultimately, because things had changed and we did do a rebrand, so Sandler globally did go through a rebrand a couple of Junes ago, so we wanted to align more with what our corporate branding looked like. And we have AI now. We have new ways of interacting with buyers. We have more buyers in the process now because most organizations, especially at the enterprise level, have become massively risk averse, especially post COVID. So, the beauty of Sandler is it’s always been about having more effective human to human interactions professionally and personally. And so, as I said to a client recently who’s like, well, Sandler is not industry specific. And I said, well, are you still selling to human beings? And he said, yup. And I said, awesome. So, if you are selling to human beings, we can provide some sort of support and guidance. And as David Sandler said, I’m giving you sheet music and helping you make it say in your world. So, if you need to give me some buzzwords or competitor names to make the examples, I’m giving relevant to your industry, rock and roll. However, Sandler’s about human to human. And as the human to human has changed in sales and in sales leadership, we added some new content, we updated and revised a few things to make it more resonant with the modern learner. [19:10]

Nancy Calabrese: Yep, and also you and I spoke about this, and I don’t know if you’re doing it, but they created cohorts in the fall. And actually, I’m enjoying it because I have the opportunity to get to know some other trainers and get their point of view on topics, not just the same trainer. So, hey, we are up in time. I told you this was going to go by fast. How can my people find you? And before you do that, what is the one takeaway you want the audience to go with?

Hamish Knox: The one takeaway I want the audience to go with is it’s never about us, it’s always about the buyer. So, if the buyer calls up and go, if we ring ring hello and the buyer goes, what, that’s not about us. And if the buyer says, well, why should I work with you? And you say, well, here’s some reasons why other people have worked with us, are any of those relevant to you? So always making it about the buyer and never about us and getting our emotional needs met is very, very powerful. [20:17]

Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. How can everyone find you Hamish?

Hamish Knox: So, there are not very many Hamish Knox’s in the world. In fact, I am the number one Google result for Hamish Knox globally. So, if you punch Hamish Knox into Google, I’m going to show up at the top. So that’s an easy way. You can find me on LinkedIn. If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, please mention that you heard me on Nancy’s show, because you’re probably surprised I got a lot of inbound connection requests and I want to support everybody and I want to make sure that I know where people are connecting me from. You can also check out my podcast, Full Funnel Freedom, which Nancy was a killer guest on back in April of 2024. And those would be the best ways to get ahold of it. [21:09]

Nancy Calabrese: I had so much fun. Yeah, you know, I forgot to mention the podcast. You are awesome. So, folks, this is the guy to go to. He’s an excellent trainer, but an entertainer too. So, there is never a dull moment. Take advantage of his expertise. Reach out to Hamish and Hamish, thanks so much for being on my show. You make me smile every time I talk to you and I love smiling. So maybe in the future we’ll do it again. And until we speak again, everyone makes it an awesome sales day until next time. [21:47]