by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 24, 2024 | Podcast
About Benjamin Brown: Benjamin Brown is the CEO of 360 Sales Consulting, a company specializing in helping businesses and entrepreneurs excel in sales and dramatically increase their bottom line. Their proprietary sales system has come to be recognized as a “game-changer” and is in demand by companies of all sizes throughout the United States. Ben’s sales career of more than twenty years began with selling health club memberships and quickly worked his way into sales manager and sales director positions. Having held both inside and outside sales positions, his diverse experience includes selling autos, computer products and services, voice recognition software, staffing, and transportation services. Ben is a former United States Marine with six years of service and a Veteran of the Gulf War. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Benjamin.
In this episode, Nancy and Benjamin discuss the following:
- The importance of confidence in sales
- The effectiveness of mentoring and coaching in learning sales
- A 10-step sales process based on Benjamin’s proven sales system
- Customizing sales processes based on specific products or services
- The impact of AI on sales and the enduring importance of human interaction
- Benjamin’s journey into sales and teaching
Key Takeaways:
- 80% of sales is confidence.
- Children are good salespeople because they close for no reason.
- Anytime you’re in a conversation about working with an individual, there’s always a sale.
- Sales is the essential part of a business that brings in the money.
- One of the things that I teach is that you have to like it, love it, or leave it.
“ The best way to learn sales that I found is making sure that you have a proper mentor to work with or coach, especially if you haven’t done it before or if you have done it not to the point where you’ve been satisfied. Sales is a skill, so it’s better done in an apprentice-type situation where somebody is grading your performance as you do it. Theory, reading a book, watching videos and doing it and performing it doesn’t work well because there’s no way for you to get the direct feedback that you need to adjust.” – BENJAMIN
“We live in a Western civilization where we’re trained that your worth and things you want must be earned through your work. You don’t negotiate. If you make enough money to negotiate in America, the only thing you know in life is a house and a car. But if you go overseas and go to third-world countries or other places less, their actual mentality or culture is that if you go to a market, an open market in a second or third-world country, there are no prices. Everything is a negotiation. Right? Everything’s in the good in some cultures. If you don’t negotiate, they will see it as negative. So, I love it when I go overseas, and I go to these places, and at the end of the tour, you’ll see the native, the local people selling their arts and crafts at the end, and they’re coming at you with the, you know, the pressure for you to buy. You can look and see the Americans because they start to cringe. They’re not used to that aggression. But this is how people get things done in their country. We live in an economy where we don’t have to deal with that. But we get more inundation through our phones and television, driving down the road. We get hit just like they do. It’s just not verbally in our face.” – BENJAMIN
“There’s no need to fear sales if you understand that sales is a language. It’s just like sign language or anything else, and if you can understand that, your life becomes a whole lot easier because you’ll know when people are selling you and when you need to buy. And that comes through your personal life as well as your business. By doing that, your confidence level will increase because you now will understand that you need to listen more in a conversation because good salespeople are great listeners. And it is key. So, there are three things I say you need to do when you’re a good salesperson: First, you need to know where you’re going, which means a good sales process. Number two is that you need to be confident. You have to be able to take rejection. Number three is that you must listen. And you must do all three of those at the same time. Hence the skill of sales. So, some people could do one or two, but you need to do all three. And if you could do all three very well, you could become a great salesperson.” – BENJAMIN
Connect with Benjamin Brown:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Benjamin Brown, the owner of 360 Sales Consulting, a company that specializes in boosting sales for businesses of any size and industry. As a sales coach, author, and speaker, he has over 23 years of experience in selling anything from stocks to cars to medical devices. His 10 -step sales process, which he reveals in his book, Master the Art of Closing the Sale, is based on finding and solving the customer’s pain points, building rapport and trust, and asking for the sale with confidence. Benjamin’s mission is to help salespeople and business owners achieve financial freedom by closing more sales. Well, as you know, Benjamin, I’m all about sales, so welcome to the show. Let’s get going.
Benjamin Brown: Glad to do it. Glad to be here, Nancy. [1:26]
Nancy Calabrese: I’m excited. So, you know, especially when I speak with other people that are totally into sales, and yet many salespeople struggle with asking for the sale. Why is that?
Benjamin Brown: 80 % of sales Nancy is confidence. So, when I work with individuals, the first thing I have to do is rate their confidence level, find out why it’s not as high as it should be. And most of the time that would help me reprogram them in understanding what sales actually is and what it’s all about and how fun it can actually be if you understand what it’s all about and you have a good actual sales process that you’re comfortable with. So, most of the time that’s them being uncomfortable or not confident enough. [2:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, why don’t we start with the basic? What is a sale?
Benjamin Brown: A sale is, I ask this for many people and they kind of don’t understand it because I say sales is simple but it’s not easy. So, I simplified it by the purpose of a sale is to get someone to move. So, it doesn’t have to do with money. It doesn’t have to do with denominations and currency. When your child asks you to pick them up, that is a close. They know how to close. Children are good salespeople because they close for no reason. Right? So, if you understand the concept of a sale is to get somebody to move, which means that we happen all the time. Click on this, give me your email address. Let me ask you this question. The billboard, call this number, fill this out. These are all baby steps in sales processes. Even dating is sales. Can I take you out? Can I get your ID? Can I get your phone number? Can you give me your name? All of these are baby steps in a process in sales. So, sales, when I teach the concept, making people relative to life is everywhere in life that you see it. You just haven’t paid attention to it. [3:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well why is learning sales so important?
Benjamin Brown: Well, if you’re anytime you’re an entrepreneur, Mark Cuban says the first thing you need to know how to do is sell. I work with beginning entrepreneurs and the first thing they want to focus on is a website and a business card. Now understand you must sell the product first to make sure it’s relevant. Right. Also, anytime you’re in a conversation of working with an individual, there’s always a sale going on. So, if you don’t know sales, that means that you’re always buying. [4:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Wow. You know, I read somewhere that you state that many businesses don’t think sales training is important until it starts to affect their revenue. Why is that?
Benjamin Brown: They fail to invest in it because most or some companies are more geared towards marketing and don’t understand sales aspect of it. They don’t come from sales backgrounds. It’s just like hiring a coach and he comes from a decent defensive mindset, and you hire him as a head coach. He’s going to focus more on defense than he would on offense because that’s his mindset. So, business owners come from a more marketing mindset than the sales mindset. And so, some companies can run purely on sales without marketing. Hence, network marketing is not really about sales. It’s about referrals, right? Which is a sale, not really the marketing aspect of it. [5:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, well even asking for a referral is a form of selling, don’t you think?
Benjamin Brown: Yes, it is, but they gear their sales process mainly on that and benefiting the people that get involved to sell the seller, like insurance companies, all about referrals. Some companies are, but as far as face -to -face, cold calling, that’s another type of form, or would you say cold calling on the phone or things of that nature is a contact sport. So, you have to have a game plan for what that’s going to look like because it has to be replicated over and over and over again until it’s defined. And then you give that to someone new as a guide. And most companies don’t have a guide. I said most salespeople are not successful in the company because the company didn’t provide them enough tools to work. [6:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, over and over again. Okay, so what kind of tool should a company make available to salespeople?
Benjamin Brown: A solid sales process. Solid. Something that’s been proven, something that they do, something that has worked. Most people will come in and that, you know, IBM had a good sound set. You know, insurance companies have a different way of the training, you know, two to six months, sometimes training just purely just to get them to understand how they do things here. So, when I work with business owners and I say, when you hire salespeople, you need to have an SOP when you bring in a salesperson and say, this is how we do things here. And that is the mark that you want everyone to make. And if they can’t make that, then that’s your standing ground. It’s not because you don’t think they have a good personality. It’s just they’re not following proper instructions. [7:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, huh. What is the best way to learn sales?
Benjamin Brown: The best way to learn sales that I found is making sure that you have a proper mentor to work with or coach, especially if you haven’t done it before or if you have done it not to the point where you’ve been satisfied. Sales is a skill, so it’s better done in an apprentice type situation where you have somebody grading your performance as you do it. Theory, reading a book, watching videos and actually doing it and performing it doesn’t work well because there’s no way for you to get the direct feedback that you need to adjust. [7:42]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think about, again, myself, I’m speaking personally that I love sales, but many people absolutely hate it. They hear the word sales and, you know, they get goosebumps. They want to run away. Why is that?
Benjamin Brown: I’m glad you asked that. We live in a Western civilization where we’re trained that your worth and things that you want must be earned through the work that you do. You don’t negotiate. The only thing you know in life that you in America if you make enough money to negotiate is a house and a car. But if you go overseas and you go to third world countries or other places less, their actual mentality or their culture is if you go to a market, an open market in a second or third world country, there’s no prices. Everything is negotiation. Right? Everything’s in the good in some cultures. If you don’t negotiate, they seem it as a negative. Right? So, I love when I go overseas and I go to these places and at the end of the tour, you’ll see the native, the local people selling their arts and crafts at the end and they’re coming at you with the, you know, the pressure for you to buy. You can look and see the Americans because they start to cringe. They’re not used to that aggression, right? But this is how people get things done in their country. We just live in an economy where we don’t have to deal with that. But we do get more inundation through our phone, our television, driving down the road. We get hit just like they do. It’s just not verbally in our face. [9:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, let’s talk about your book Master the Art of Closing the Sale. What motivated you to write it? Maybe you can share a little bit about your 10 -step sales process.
Benjamin Brown: Mm -hmm. Well, I can prize that over the years of working with various companies and various sales system to formulate a simple 10 step program that can be retaught and made simplified. Like I say, sales is simple, but it’s not easy. Each one of these steps could take, if you had to do a semester in high school, it could take an entire semester to break down each step to make sure people understand what it is. Right. But by using these steps is front based, where you’re not having to worry about anxiety of closing because a lot of the steps that essentially needs to be done in the sales is done upfront and it’s done for the purpose of making the sales process a little bit easier. Also, making it more enjoyable. Also, the key is to make sure that the result is that you get a testimonial referral. So, if your sales process is smooth and can be done in a easy way asking to sale is just an aphor thought. I would prefer to get a referral and a testimonial and that way you can continue in your sales of driving leads as you increase your sales performance. Does that make sense? [10:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. It does. It does. Another question just popped into my head. Do you believe in scripting?
Benjamin Brown: Some people do, like I said, every sale has 10 steps in it from my book, but not every product needs all 10. For example, there’s 10 steps in every sales process. When I was in the gem business, there’s five steps, need, use, affordability, spouse, and guest pass. That is the sales process for the gem. But there’s 10 steps in there. So, what I do when I work with individuals, I customize based on the 10 steps, the specific ones on your product or service, that way you can build a customized sales process that’s replicated and can be retaught. [11:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. You know, I guess sales has changed like everything else over the years. How do you feel it’s changed?
Benjamin Brown: It hasn’t really changed in my opinion. It’s just the tools that we use are different. Back in the 50s, you had nothing but door -to -door salespeople doing anything from vacuums, just talking to housewives. Then at the advent of the radio came with the radio commercial, then the TV, and then the telephone. So as of the last 20 years, we have been inundated with other tools, fax machines. The huge one is the computer and now the cell phone. So, people get too caught up into the tools and not focus on the performance of sales. And that’s why the process slows down in most businesses because they’re worried about how many likes they got on Instagram rather than picking up the phone and dialing. [12:43]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, what do you think about sales and AI? How is AI going to impact sales?
Benjamin Brown: Well, there’s gonna be a, you know, it’s gonna be a wave that’s gonna come along, but I actually see down the line, because I’m a little bit older, the fight for people to start coming back to reality. I mean, it’s gonna have its time, but man versus machine, it’s kinda like now when you get a robo call, right? People thought that wasn’t gonna work. People nowadays will not even take a robo call. They won’t take anything until they know it’s a real person. So, we have a sense of AI and what that’s going to look like, but it’s going to replicate to a certain extent, but it won’t replace humans totally. [13:34]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. I agree. Nothing replaces the human conversation. Don’t you agree? I mean, there’s…
Benjamin Brown: And the human contact is what we crave for, especially after COVID, us being locked down, things of that nature. We can’t survive without each other. Depression sets in. And so being to be able to sell at a distance with all of these tools is great if you’re making money. But most of the consumers prefer to have somebody live. [14:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, I totally agree. So why does every company need a sales process?
Benjamin Brown: Well, it’s essential that you ask the same company, keep it simple. Why do they need a marketing process? Why do they need an accounting process? Sales is a part of a business. It’s the essential part that brings in the money. Marketing brings exposure and brand, accounting, accounts for the money, accounts payable and the money that comes in. Every part has a function in the organization. Most people don’t put it on sales until those other ones, become so faulty that they must look back on sales. [14:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Yeah. Tell me something that’s true in sales that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Benjamin Brown: Haha, ooh, I get everybody to agree most of my stuff. One of the things that I teach is that you have to like it, love it, or leave it. That’s how law there I am. If you don’t like or love what you’re selling, leave it. It comes through in your performance, your passion, your voice, your tone, which all of these play a part in your performance as a salesperson when you’re presenting. And people will know if you don’t like or love the product, if you don’t, they’re going to be like, why would I? And why would I pay money for it? [15:30]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So, what motivated you to get into this business? I mean, you have an interesting background. You were in the military and of course selling along the way, but what is it about sales that attracts you?
Benjamin Brown: Yeah. Um, I started it by being recruited. It’s just like the acting bug. Once you get into it, you start and in Florida, you know, you make more money because this is a right to work state. A lot of the people here, and we based it on tourism to make significant money. One of the ways to do that is through sales. There’s a lot of sales companies here for the last 30 years. And so, by getting into that, there was a lot more opportunity to broaden or make it, you know, a significant amount of money through that and then suddenly, once I was taught properly how to do it over a period of time, it became enjoyable with my personality and what I can actually do. And then years later, I jumped at chance and thought about, I wanted to teach something, because most of my family’s preachers are teachers. And I sat down for six months to figure out what I wanted to teach. And it was always right in front of my face, teach what you know. And so, I tested the theory for about a year on people and individuals and looking at the results that was driven from that, proven and took that and built the company around that premises and been doing well so far. [17:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. You know, I can’t believe we’re almost up with time. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Benjamin Brown: There’s no need to fear sales if you understand Sales is a language. It’s just like sign language or anything else and if you can understand that your life becomes a whole lot more easier because you’ll be able to know when people are selling you and you’ll know when you need to buy and that comes through your personal life as well as your business and By doing that your confidence level will gain because you now will be able to understand that you need to listen more in a conversation because good salespeople are great listeners. And it is key. And so, the three things I say you need to do when you’re a good salesperson, you need to first know where you’re going, which means a good sales process. Number two is that you need to be confident. You have to be able to take rejection. And then number three is that you must listen. And you must do all three of those at the same time. Hence the skill of sales. So, some people could do one, some people could do two, but you need to do all three. And if you could do all three very well, you could become a great salesperson. [18:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. I love it. I love it. Benjamin, how can my people find you?
Benjamin Brown: Number one is they want to reach out on one of the personable ones. They can go to meetwithbenjamin .com and schedule a call to assess where they’re at in their mindset or sales to figure out, because I would do mindset training as well. 360salesconsulting .com is the website they can go to, but they can go meetwithbenjamin .com and schedule. And then my book is Master the Art of Closing the Sale by Benjamin Brown on Amazon and on my website. [18:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Love it. Love it, love it, love it. I told you this was gonna go by fast, didn’t I?
Benjamin Brown: When you enjoy it, it goes by quick.
Nancy Calabrese: It does. So, folks, take advantage of this gentleman’s expertise, you know, and I keep going back to what you said earlier, children are natural salespeople. It’s interesting how, you know, when you look at it, they get what they want, usually, right? And they ask for it with confidence. So maybe we should. Take the tips from young children and definitely Benjamin. Thanks so much for being on the show, Benjamin. You were great fun. And for everyone else out there, make it an awesome sales day. [19:40]
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 18, 2024 | Podcast
About Christian Palmer: Christian Palmer is the Senior Manager of Sales Enablement at Justt, the only company fighting chargeback disputes for merchants and winning. Christian’s background includes working as an L&D Consultant/Sales Trainer at Phaidon International, where they provided foundational academy training to new consultants and coached and mentored them on both team and individual levels. Christian also worked as a Clinical Consultant at ProClinical, a global recruitment company specializing in the life sciences industry. Earlier in their career, Christian worked as an Associate Consultant at Real Staffing, an international pharmaceutical recruitment agency, and as a Corporate Recruiter/HR Associate at Dutch-X. Christian began their professional journey at Apple, where they served as an Expert. Christian Palmer, M.S.Ed., has diverse experience in sales enablement, recruitment, learning and development, and leadership roles. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Christian.
In this episode, Nancy and Christian discuss the following:
- Definition of sales enablement
- Importance of sales enablement within a company
- Necessary tools for enablement
- Role of sales playbook in enablement
- Enablement in one-person teams vs. global departments
Key Takeaways:
- It’s of tremendous value to businesses to bring somebody who can identify the gaps first, then fill them in and be the main voice for the salespeople.
- I’ve only seen playbooks succeed at larger organizations with more structure and infrastructure.
- Everything you say will not be listened to if you don’t have it.
“Sales enablement can be defined in a number of different ways. Because it is such a newer field, it tends to get mis-defined if that’s a phrase all the time. And the best way for me to describe it is essentially twofold. I’ll probably start with the more form formal definition of it. That is to provide the tools, resources, skills, processes, and infrastructure for sellers to enable them to be more efficient, skilled, and proficient with their actual product offering to sell more effectively over time. That is the more formal side, but I would say maybe something a little bit softer that I guess you could say is more layperson’s terms for folks is going to be that I am more or less bridge or support system or the voice of the salespeople. And that can stretch across different cross-functional teams to senior leadership and stakeholders and be able to bridge that gap between what’s going on in the ground with sellers and what’s happening strategically in the organization.” – CHRISTIAN
“In probably an ideal world is that you have your LMS, your learning management system, that you’re able to create content with and a CMS, a content management system, of which you’re able to organize that content of what you made in the LMS into a digestible format for sellers and anybody else looking at it. Both of those tools, more so the CMS, should be able to help you measure success rates of reps over time. That could be done in a number of ways, through their behaviors, actions, and results, corresponding those specific results to maybe some items that they had done during the onboarding within that CMS. But those are probably the main tools. You could throw in another authoring tool or whatnot if you wanted to facilitate making even more differentiated content, like maybe an articulate or something along those lines. Any place that doesn’t have either of those. It will be a bit more of a lift for an enabler to assemble something. Those tools make it a lot easier. But there’s a ton of them out there. It’s hard to know what’s going to be best.” – CHRISTIAN
“I think the easiest way, or the standard way you’ll see amongst most enablers, especially those with sales experience, is leveraging that you’ve been there before. Of course, this gets harder the longer you’re not in a sales role. The harder it’s going to be to align. However, I think the main foundational selling parts don’t change. So, those aspects are what you can align with a rep. Whether it’s somebody going on a performance improvement plan, I’ve been on it several times in my career. One time, it didn’t work out too great; the other time, it worked out for me. Using that as leverage and explaining to a seller, like, hey, look, this isn’t the end; it’s just the beginning, shows vulnerability on my part and shows them that I can relate to what this is—the vulnerability aspect I bring up because that’s how you build relationships with anybody. So, whether or not they’re actual sellers doesn’t matter as much to me. But the fact that they are, and I go in and let them know maybe areas that I’m weak in upfront, maybe areas that I know I’m strong in or where I think I can help them, and start adding value to them without them even asking for it.
An example of this would be if you come into an organization where you don’t have industry knowledge. This is very much how it was at Riskified for me. I knew nothing about chargebacks or the fraud or policy abuse space. But I did know all the different selling skills I’ve accumulated and enabled over the years. So, I was able to come in and create sessions and content and additional resources around some of these skills that were agnostic to what Riskified is and what industry it’s in.” – CHRISTIAN
Connect with Christian Palmer:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Christian Palmer, a global revenue enablement manager at Riskified Global Enablement Team. His company focuses primarily on global onboarding and coaching. Christian has a combined 11 years within sales and enablement. Starting off in the hospitality and retail world, he honed his skills within customer service. This translated to the recruitment third party staffing world, where he moved from individual contributor to sales trainer. His enablement career started there. And since then, he’s been fortunate to work with a number of early stage startups. It is a pleasure to have you on the show, Christian. Let’s dive right in.
Christian Palmer: Heck of an intro, Nancy. Thank you so much for having me. [1:18]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I’m excited. You know, but I have to tell you, global revenue enablement manager is a tongue twister. I had to practice that a few times to get it straight. I guess it’s something that you get used to, but let’s just start with the basics. Tell everyone what sales enablement means.
Christian Palmer: I want to preface this with sales enablement can be defined in a number of different ways. And quite frankly, because it is such a newer field, it tends to get mis-defined, if that’s a phrase all the time. And the best way for me to describe it is essentially twofold. I’ll start with probably the more form formal definition of it. And that is to be able to provide the tools, resources, skills, processes, and infrastructure for sellers to enable them to be more efficient, skilled, and proficient with their actual product offering to be able to sell more effectively over time. That is the more formal side, but I would say maybe something that’s a little bit softer that I guess you could say is more layman’s terms for folks is going to be that I am more or less bridge or support system or the voice of the salespeople. And that can stretch across different cross-functional teams to senior leadership and stakeholders and really be able to bridge that gap between what’s going on in the ground with sellers and what’s happening strategically in the organization. [2:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Great. Oh, you said sales enablement is relatively new. How new is it?
Christian Palmer: You know, I don’t have like, I guess the official point of when it started, but I will say I did not really see the word enablement until around like four or five years ago. And it was honestly it was around the time when I had started my tenure as a trainer, and I was doing enablement work before the word enablement even came up. Yeah. [3:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Huh, okay. So why is this so important, you know, to implement within a company?
Christian Palmer: I think it’s being able to have businesses strike a balance between the activities that most folks in a go-to-market organization, as far as the go-to-market function of a business is concerned, to be able to speak effectively on all the different things that are going on within the seller’s function and be able to translate that to other areas of the business um, or largest businesses need somebody like an enablement person on their side and on their team because they help bring their expertise, maybe as an individual contributor in their past sales life or other, um, you know, maybe other, uh, prerequisites that they bring to the table. Um, but also I think, uh, on the other end of it, they want to have somebody who’s able to come in and make the sellers better and more successful. And not to say, um, you know, a sales manager could not do that. A senior sales leader could not do that, or you know, maybe anybody else high up. A lot of the times, even the time I’ve been a sales manager, I did a lot of enablement work, but being a resource to them, not only coaching their reps and onboarding their reps and doing all the other associated enablement activities, but also working with the managers to help them get better as well. And I end up being, more of a resource and a support system and a true partner in the strategic aspects of the business, but also on the ground level working with reps directly. So, it’s of tremendous value to businesses to bring somebody on like that, that’s going to be able to really fill in the gaps, identify, I’m sorry, identify the gaps first, then fill them in and be able to be that main voice for the salespeople. [5:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. What are some of the tools you mentioned that are necessary for enablement?
Christian Palmer: You know, I’ve been in roles where I’ve had absolutely nothing except my Google account. You know, I’ve had to deal with just having spreadsheets and organizing everything and what I like to say a spreadsheet, HE double hockey sticks. That’s essentially what it is. And then using docs and everything else accordingly. But I would say in probably a more ideal world is that you have your LMS, you’re learning management system, that you’re able to create content with, and a CMS, a content management system, of which you’re able to organize that content of what you made in the LMS into a digestible format for sellers and for anybody else looking at it. Both of those tools, more so the CMS, should be able to help you measure success rates of reps over time. That could be done in a number of ways, through their behaviors, through their actions, their results, corresponding those specific results to maybe some items that they had done during the onboarding that are within that CMS. But I would say like those are probably the main tools and you could probably throw in another authoring tool or whatnot if you wanted to facilitate making even more differentiated content, like maybe an articulate or something along those lines. But I would say any place that doesn’t have either of those. Obviously, it is going to be a little bit more of a lift for an enabler to put something together. Those tools make it a lot easier. But there’s a ton of them out there. It’s hard to know what’s going to be best. I’ve worked with a bunch of them, so it can be difficult. So, I see it from both sides, but certainly those two would be the most important. [7:15]
Nancy Calabrese: So, is creating like a sales playbook part of sales enablement?
Christian Palmer: I would say not always, but a lot of the times, yes. I have been tasked with making a playbook in past roles. I think playbooks can take on different formats. They sometimes can be a tool to help upskill folks maybe on industry or product knowledge. You know, when there is a complex sale at hand and maybe you have people or sellers coming into the role that you know, don’t have that experience upfront. So, for instance, like Riskified is in the fraud management space within finance. And I think, you know, if you don’t know all the specific jargon coming into the business, a playbook for that could be of tremendous value to be able to upscale really, quickly, and early. But also, in addition to that, I would say playbooks themselves are only going to be as good as your best rep. [8:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Christian Palmer: And the reason why is because a lot of times, I’ve been in this situation before, you get asked or suggested to make a PlayBic or you take it upon yourself to make one, you put what you think is out there as best practice to sell product or product suite effectively, let’s say, and it doesn’t always resonate with every single person. You must know what good looks like first within your organization before you can then put that down in writing and say, this is how it’s going to be, and people can then follow it. I’ve only seen playbooks be really successful at larger orgs that have more structure and infrastructure in place where the sale is a little bit blacker and whiter than it is all over the place in gray, not knowing how to make a quote, having different types of products, different personas and things of that nature. [9:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, so where should enablement sit within an organization?
Christian Palmer: It’s a great question. It’s a question I’ve been guests on other podcasts where this was the entire topic. It’s fun to think about, you know, and I think different orgs would say and argue that it should sit with maybe marketing, maybe your revenue operations team. Those are probably the most common non-sales functions I’ve seen enablement report into. It really is going to be dependent on how built out or not built out your executive leadership team is, I would say generally, it should report into a VP of sales or whatever senior equivalent there is for sales. And the reason for that is because everyone’s goals, metrics, and things they’re working towards are going to be the most aligned in that regard. Whereas if you are, let’s say, reporting into a marketing, a CMO, um, you know, perhaps somebody else in a, in another part of the organization, uh, those folks tend to have different goals and metrics and things that they’re working towards where your roles and responsibilities may not correspond with that. So, I would say it’s, it’s harder to be set up for success in those situations. And on the softer side of things, you don’t have as much buy-in, um, cause you’re not a marketer. You’re not, um, a revenue operation professional, although it’s somewhat close. And, if you’re on the sales side of things, you’re going to be like kind of one of them if that makes sense. Not to put salespeople in a box, but let’s be real, right? If you’re not a part of the sales org, you’re going to get looked at a certain way. So, I think that that’s proven to be the most successful in my eyes as far as like organizational structure. [11:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. And you mentioned revenue operations. So how, how would you suggest to best work with that department for successful outcomes?
Christian Palmer: Definitely, I think collaborating with them on where their strengths are going to be versus yours. I’ve seen, this has happened at a couple organizations I’ve been in, I’ve seen revenue operations focus a little bit more on the reporting aspects of things, whether that’s Salesforce Tableau or whatever equivalent tool we want to talk about, being able to understand the stats a little bit more, the correlations between the metrics and maybe what’s going on within the market or within the industry to bring conclusions to why those metrics are the way they are. But I think in tandem, using those or leveraging them with enablement to say, how could we help sellers get better at their role or improve this stat over time? That’s where enablement could come in and say, well, you know, there’s a number of things we could do, whether it’s a session, a self-guided learning, some type of assignment or a combination of all three of those things to get sellers to be able to get up to speed as quickly as possible, make that change with the support of revenue operations. So, I think it’s just playing to each role strengths. But with that being said, I’ve seen revenue operations professionals act as enablers in some organizations and vice versa. I’ve been in an enablement role where I’m the one pulling all those stats if they don’t have a revenue person. I’m the one who’s kind of making those connections and then carrying out whatever enablement activities there need to be. But at least in the larger orgs where things are a little bit more built out, that tends to be what I’ve seen and heard. [13:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. OK. Now, you mentioned earlier that it’s important to earn stakeholder buy-in early and continuously. Why is it important?
Christian Palmer: If you don’t have it, everything you say is not going to be listened to. I think that that’s probably the biggest aspect of this whole thing. And it is imperative that when you come into an organization, you’re able to build up those relationships immediately. It takes a long time, you know? And I think a lot of stakeholders may or may not agree or align on the sentiment of needing enablement or what its value is. So, for those folks, sometimes it’s more of like, I need to prove it. But with stakeholders themselves, I think if you have their buy-in and it’s done early enough, they’ll be able to echo your sentiments. They’ll be able to reinforce things that you’re showing their team and be able to do all those things when you’re not around. And excuse me, I think that’s when it tends to be the most valuable because everybody is going to appear more aligned and you’ll feel more comfortable knowing that, hey, I can leave this in the manager’s hands. Additionally, there could be some other things that they would then help with on the side, not to say I would want every stakeholder to do this, but maybe they can help look over material that I create. Maybe they participate in some of the things that I’m doing with the sellers. That makes it a lot more valuable to a seller and to me, because then the weight of the world’s not on my shoulders. A seller is going to hear something from the horse’s mouth, their manager. Let’s say that’s a stakeholder and that ends up being a lot more successful. [14:45]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, but how do you establish credibility with the reps, the sales reps? How do you get their buy-in?
Christian Palmer: This can be done a number of ways. I think the easiest way or standard way you’re going to see amongst most enablers, especially ones that have sales experience, is leveraging that you’ve been there before. Of course, this gets harder. The longer it is that you’re not in a sales role, the harder it’s going to be to align. However, I do think the kind of main foundational parts of selling don’t really change. So, like those aspects are what you can really align on with a rep. Whether it’s somebody’s going on a performance improvement plan, I’ve been on performance improvement plans a couple times in my career. One time didn’t work out too great, the other time it did work out for me. And being able to use that as leverage and to explain to a seller like, hey, look, this isn’t the end, it’s just the beginning, shows vulnerability on my part and shows them that I can relate to what this is and the vulnerability aspect I bring up because that’s how you build relationships with anybody. So, whether or not they’re actual sellers doesn’t matter as much to me, but the fact that they are, and I go in and kind of let them know maybe areas that I’m weak in upfront, maybe areas that I know I’m strong in or where I think I can help them and start adding value to them without them even asking for it. So, an example of this would be maybe you come into an organization, you don’t have the industry knowledge. This is very much how it was at Riskified for me. I didn’t know anything about chargebacks or the fraud or policy abuse space, any of that. But what I did know was all the different selling skills I’ve accumulated and enabled on over the years. So, I was able to come in and kind of create sessions and content and additional resources around some of these skills that were agnostic to what Riskified is and what industry it’s in. [16:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Christian Palmer: So that helped me build up that rapport very quickly. Also reveal to them what my vulnerabilities are. But a lot of it is like coming in, sending a video, introducing myself to everybody in the main general channel on Slack or something, just being very open and available. And sticking my neck out for them when it comes to supporting them is so important to help them start getting by in with me or I get by with them. [17:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, you know, what’s the difference when you work with a one-man team versus a global department? Is there any difference in enablement?
Christian Palmer: I’d say so. I think on the one hand of it, when you’re on a solo enablement team, the weight of the world is on your shoulders most of the time, you’re going to be in a position where not only are you ideally identifying where there are gaps and how you could enable upon them, but every Tom, Rich and Harry is going to be reaching out to you about something they need, whether that’s people that are not big on enablement or people that are enablement happy and want to training for everything. Generally, when you’re a one-man person, it’s going to be a little bit, I don’t want to generalize, but at least what I’ve seen is like, you’ll be a little bit more responsible for quantity of production rather than the quality because of how fast things are generally moving. If you’re a solo enabler, usually you’re in a little bit more of a lean organization. They’re going to be scrappy. They’re going to want things done yesterday, although I would say bigger orcs still do that too. [18:28] But with all that.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I don’t think you get away with that in any organization.
Christian Palmer: Yeah, yeah. No, that’s a great point. And I think like if you’re if you’re solo, I think it just will come down to, you know, being able to spread yourself across a bunch of different areas simultaneously, pivot and adapt when necessary. Know that maybe some of the projects that are a priority today may be dropped as priorities tomorrow. On the other side of it, if you’re in a larger organization or like a global team. A lot of the times those teams are separated by function, by skill, by region. And with that means that people are going to have a little bit narrower swim lane. Maybe there’s people that are just focused on content. Some people that are just focused on bringing tools onto the team and integrating them. Like all those different thing’s kind of need to come together. Generally, there’s going to be a little bit more, I don’t know if red tape is the phrase, but You know, like the kind of bureaucratic tendencies of larger orgs where, you know, there’s a resource, meaning a person for everything and things will need approvals. You’ll need to work more cross-functionally. And in different ways than you would, if you were a solo person, you’d still would work cross-functionally as a solo. But I think in this regard, you’re going to be a little bit more like, okay, we’re going to do one piece of this enablement activity that I’m going to pass it on to a product marketing team or a data team or something along those lines. Whereas the solo thing, I would include them, but I generally would be doing everything from start to finish. So, I think there are pros and cons to both, but they are different. [20:07]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, can you believe it? We’re up with time. We could go on forever. No, not at all. I mean, you have a lot to share with us. So how can my people find you?
Christian Palmer: Did I speak too much? Did I say too many things? Definitely look me up on LinkedIn, Christian Palmer. I have a comma after my last name, MSED. And definitely find me on LinkedIn. Feel free to view the other podcasts and content that I’ve created in my featured section. And don’t be bashful. Hit me up with a message. If you need any help regarding enablement sales, maybe on the job search, I am available. And yeah, here to help. [20:47]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, hey folks, let’s take advantage of Christian’s generous offer. You were wonderful. And you could tell listening to you, you’re very passionate about what you do. And so, I’m going to end the show today and encourage everybody again, take advantage of Christian’s offer. Christian, you’re terrific. Thank you so much for your time and make it an awesome sales day, everyone. [21:14]
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 16, 2024 | Podcast
About Jeff Savlov: Jeff Savlov is the Founder of Blum & Savlov, LLP, and consults with business families, legacy wealth families, and the advisors who serve them. He brings more than 30 years of unique experience in sales and marketing, business ownership, entrepreneurial endeavors, family dynamics/psychological training, and a common-sense style to his consulting work with families. By integrating his diverse business background, extensive academic work, and family dynamics/psychological training with his experience working in his family’s commercial printing business, Jeff helps enterprising families balance family and business/wealth so both will thrive for generations. Jeff has consulted on relationship and team dynamics with Fortune 500 companies such as Bristol-Myers Squibb, Johnson & Johnson, and Schering Plough. He also devotes a portion of his time to performance enhancement with corporate executives and elite high school athletes. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Jeff.
In this episode, Nancy and Jeff discuss the following:
- The role of the Sandler methodology in understanding client needs and building relationships
- Jeff’s background and journey into family consulting
- The challenges faced by wealthy families and the specialized assistance they require
- Strategies for acquiring clients: speaking engagements and referrals
- Jeff’s unique approach to using Metallica’s story in his workshops
Key Takeaways:
- It’s easy to idealize being wealthy, but there are many challenges.
- One of my areas is parenting in the context of family wealth and how to start when kids are young to raise them so that those values will remain there when they learn about money.
- DISC is excellent for people who don’t have the training to help them think about the general categories that people fall into.
“I got trained as a family therapist. After grad school, I did another seven years of training in a psychoanalytic institute for seven years. Like I said, I got fully certified and started a private practice doing talk therapy 30 years ago. And just by coincidence, some of my early therapy clients also had significant wealth or family businesses. I was working with them as a therapist, and I could see that there was a need that was different than therapy, but that lawyers, accountants, and wealth managers didn’t have the training and background to go into the family dynamic side. So, I saw an opportunity to do something that was not therapy but between what a therapist and business consultants do. I started to work slowly and consult with families. Again, I’m not working on finance taxes or operations. I’m helping families develop strong family teams and work together two or three generations at a time. Now that people are living longer, you can easily have, you know, 80-year-olds, 50-year-olds, and 20-year-olds working together. I help them work together, develop leadership, communicate well, and make transitions from one generation to the next, helping the senior generation step back, give the next generation opportunity, and developing the next generation to step up and take over.” – JEFF
“ In terms of meeting people and those early stages when I’m trying to decide if I want to work with them and they’re trying to decide if they want to work with me, Sandler has been incredibly valuable. And what I just said is really at the heart of it. Sandler talks about a level playing field. So, it’s not like, “Hey, I’m the poor guy with the poor schmuck with something to sell. I hope you’ll buy it.” It’s more like I have something of value; I’m looking for people who need it, have pain around it that I can solve, and have respect for what I bring. And they’re looking for someone to help them with their pain, and it’s mutual. And Sandler, that part of the Sandler attitude is that it’s a level playing field but a two-way street. I’m not just looking for anyone who’ll hire me. And that’s a big piece of it. I feel like the rapport part of the equation is something I’ve always been good at just naturally, and certainly years of being a therapist, and that’s a big part of the Sandler piece.” – JEFF
“I find sales is fun. Even though I am primarily sort of a consultant and I’m doing, you know, professional consulting services, I must find— I’m a solo guy. I must find my, you know, my clients and serve them. And that is sales. And I think that sales— really, life is sales, not in a manipulative way, but life is about understanding people, seeing if there’s a common need or desire, and then going for it. And so, I find it a lot of fun. Sometimes, I land a big client, and then I’m disappointed. I must do the work. Not that I don’t enjoy the work, but I find sales— I love the hunt. And I find it enjoyable. I don’t know, people think it’s crazy that aren’t into it.” – JEFF
Connect with Jeff Savlov:
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Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with my colleague Jeff Savlov, family business and wealth consultant, speaker, coach, and facilitator. He brings more than 25 years of experience to his work with families and family enterprises through his consulting work with Blum and Savlov. Jeff helps multi-generational family enterprises manage complex decisions related to their shared assets. He guides families as they move along the continuum from operating businesses to owning and managing multiple assets where a family’s emotional and financial lives are tied together in pursuit of the common future. Welcome to the show, Jeff. I’m so happy to have you.
Jeff Savlov: Yeah, thanks, Nancy. It’s great to be here. [1:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so Jeff and I go back many years and I’ve been trying to get him on the show for quite some time. We finally made it. Talk about how you got involved in this business. What’s your background?
Jeff Savlov: Yeah, so it was sort of by accident. Its kind of just fell together. I grew up in my family’s family business. I’ll give you the quick and dirty. Grew up in my family’s family business, middle school, I would go to the New York City on weekends. And then we opened a second location in New Jersey. High school, I got involved. Even during college, I stayed involved. As the business grew, my dad, who was really a blue-collar technical guy who started his own business, wasn’t really experienced as a manager or a leader got super stressed out, took out his stress on me, which is an unusual in family business. My mom found a family therapist that worked with parents and kids in family businesses. My dad agreed to go, the whole family went, my sisters too, they weren’t involved in the business. Had a really, transformative experience for the business, but also as father and son and for our family. I decided, you know what, I don’t love commercial printing and I love you dad and working together isn’t working for us, so I’m going to go my own way. I went into sales and marketing and that was my first sales job, which was interesting and had a lot of good experience while I was still actually in college. So had that experience, like I said, left the family business. But I was so moved by what that family therapist had done for us that I went back to grad school. I studied family and group dynamics. I got trained as a family therapist. After grad school, I did another seven years training in a psychoanalytic institute for seven years, like I said, got fully certified started a private practice doing talk therapy 30 years ago. And just by coincidence, some of my early therapy clients also had significant wealth or family businesses. And I was working with them as a therapist and I could see that there was needed that was different than therapy, but that lawyers and accounts and wealth managers didn’t have the training and background to go into the family dynamic side. And so, I saw there was an opportunity to do something that was not therapy but was sort of in between what a therapist does and what business consultants do. And I started to slowly work and consult with families. Again, I’m not working on finance or taxes or operations. I’m helping families develop strong family teams and to work together two, three generations at a time. Now that people are living longer, you can easily have you know, 80-year-olds, 50 year olds, and 20 year olds, all working together. I help them work together, develop leadership, communicate well, and make transitions from one generation to the next, helping the senior generation step back, give the next generation opportunity and developing the next generation to step up and take over. [4:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So, what’s talk therapy?
Jeff Savlov: Psychotherapy, talk therapy, it’s what you think of as therapy or counseling. I use talk therapy for sure, but some people just use therapy, but it’s what you think of when you think about going to someone and talking about your problems. [4:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so why do rich people need special help?
Jeff Savlov: You know, being rich ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. You know, it’s easy to idealize being wealthy, but there’s a lot of challenges. How do you raise kids? Especially 70 something, 75% give or take of millionaires are self-created in the U.S. right now. So, these are people that develop their own businesses, companies, whatever it was that they did to be entrepreneurial, develop their own wealth, and often they come from working class or blue-collar backgrounds. And so, they had built into their own childhoods, the need to work hard and create what they wanted to create. Now they have children who are growing up and it’s already there, the nice house and the cars and the vacations. So, there’s a lot of challenges with creating wealth and then how do you raise kids who can deal with that and won’t be spoiled and will have their own work ethic. It’s trickier than you might think. I mean, if you had a billion with a B, just say you had a billion dollars, how would you handle that with your kids? Would you tell them? When do you tell them? How do you raise them so that they’ll be responsible, and they won’t just sort of blow it all in their wild teenage and early adult years? So, there’s a lot of challenges there. And that’s really my expertise. One of my areas is parenting in the context of family wealth and how to start when kids are young to raise them in a way that they will be motivated and responsible, so that when they learn about the money, those values will still be there. [5:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, so how do you find your clients and sell them?
Jeff Savlov: So, I do a lot of speaking, paid speaking around the country, which is fun to do. I write a blog that’s popular. I’ve over the last 30 years met a lot of professionals whose clients, you know, trust and estate attorneys, accountants. Wealth managers who have wealthy clients and they’ve all seen the issues families face, but they never really knew what to do with it because they didn’t have my kind of a background. So, they’re really thrilled often to know somebody like me and make introductions, but it is hard because they’re also nervous. They’re not familiar with my world. They’re nervous. They’re going to insult their clients by saying, hey, here’s a guy that can help you parent better or help you work better as a family. They’re afraid they’re going to insult the client. So I’d have to do a lot of education with these people, these professionals who refer their clients, how to bring this up, how to keep it positive, how to say that this is normal stuff every family goes through, but now there are professionals like Jeff who have a different kind of expertise and I’d like you to meet him and not make it in terms of something’s wrong with your family, but more there’s an opportunity here and there is some danger coming your way and there’s an opportunity to manage it and get ahead of it. [7:10]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. So, you and I both study Sandler methodology, and I know that we’ve been colleagues for many years now. How does Sandler help you in working with your clients?
Jeff Savlov: So, in terms of meeting people and those early stages when I’m trying to decide if I want to work with them and they’re trying to decide if they want to work with me, Sandler has been incredibly valuable. And what I just said is really at the heart of it, Sandler talks about a level playing field. So, it’s not like, hey, I’m the poor guy with the poor schmuck with something to sell, I hope you’ll buy it. It’s more like I have something of value, I’m looking for people who need it have pain around it that I can solve and have respect for what I bring. And they’re looking for someone who can help them with their pain and it’s mutual. And Sandler, that part of the Sandler attitude of it’s a level playing field, it’s a two-way street. I’m not just looking for anyone who’ll hire me. What’s that? Eagle stature. [8:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, equal stature, right? Equal stature. I think that’s so important.
Jeff Savlov: And that’s a big piece of it. I feel like the rapport part of the equation is something I’ve always been good at just naturally and certainly years of being a therapist and that’s a big part of the Sandler piece. And the other thing I would add is once you’ve gotten through sort of the initial rapport and there’s a back and forth around, I feel like you’re a client that I could help and I would want to work with and you’d be fun to work with and they feel like, Jeff, you’re a good guy, you have something to offer, we’d like to work with you. Once all that is solidified upfront, to really have an open, honest conversation about budget. [8:47]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Jeff Savlov: And what kind of fees were they expecting to pay? What kind of fees do I charge? Is there a match? Is it too far apart that it just doesn’t fit? And just talk it all out. I think in the old days before Sandler, I do the bonding and rapport and have a conversation, and then I just email them a proposal and keep my fingers crossed. And sometimes they were shocked by the number, but there was no conversation. It was like, it was shocking. And that’s one of the best things, most valuable things I’ve got from Sandler’s while I’m still in the room meeting them and talking with them is to say, Hey, let’s talk about budget, let’s talk about the amount of money you thought this would cost. Let me tell you about my fees. Let’s see if there’s a fit for what we’re both looking for and having that conversation and really getting that kind of cleared up directly face to face before sending a proposal. So now the proposal is a rubber stamp. They’ve already heard the number and agreed to it, or we decided to go separate ways. It seems crazy that I used to just send a proposal and hope for the best compared to this. This is one of the most powerful things I’ve gotten from Sandler. [9:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. And you know, my early days in sales, I would do the same thing. But now understanding, I think what I gain most from Sandler is the opportunity to really determine are we going to be a good fit? Am I going to be a solution for this customer? Are they going to be a good fit for my people and my organization? So, what’s your unique idea that’s different and sets you apart?
Jeff Savlov: So, I like to say, surprise them upfront, rather than coming in with the hard sell or going right to business, I try to find something out from the prospect. I’ll look at LinkedIn, social media, something where we might have something in common. So rather than sitting down and getting right into the business thing, I might sit down and say, hey, I saw that you like to volunteer at a soup kitchen in Texas where you live. I’ve been volunteering for 15 years at a soup kitchen in Trenton, New Jersey for you and it’s really not only is it disarming but honestly I’m interested in the same thing as them and I want to have a conversation it’s really genuine and so I think that kind of let’s just talk about something that neither one of us was expecting just to sort of start getting some common ground it’s a really powerful thing and because it’s genuine it’s not manipulative and I’m interested it I think it comes off well. [11:10]
Nancy Calabrese: So, we just came out of a class all about DISC, communication styles, right? And somebody brought up in our meeting, how do you do it when you’re having a conversation? How do you figure out their communication style? How do you go about it? Like what are some of the things you listen for or look for?
Jeff Savlov: Yeah. So, you and I happened to be in the same small group and we were discussing that. And when I was starting to say, and we got our, we timed out of our little breakout, just as I was finishing up, because I’ve had such deep and, and such long experience in, you know, as a family therapist, as a psychoanalyst working deeply with people. This is aside from the consulting work, this is sort of the, the psychotherapy work that I do for so long, which feeds into the consulting work. [12:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Jeff Savlov: Um, for me, DISC kind of throws me a little bit because it sort of puts me in my head when I have sort of an instinct for this based on 30 years of meeting all kinds of people and helping get deeply into their problems. So, I feel like for me, there’s an intuitive process of, um, of, so I might not use the disc terms of, you know, Eagle or dove or parrot or what, owl. Um, but for me, it’s clear to me that someone is, is sort of aggressive. Um, they clearly want to keep things moving. They might curse. If somebody curses in the first few minutes or first meeting, I might throw in a curse in a playful way and I think they appreciate that. I’ll keep things moving because I see that there’s someone that wants to keep things moving. If there’s someone that’s really talking a lot and telling stories, I can see that they’re the person that wants them back and forth and getting to know each other. For me, it happens intuitively based on all that training. I think DISC is great for people that don’t have that training to help you think, the general categories that people fall into. Here’s what they might be looking for. Here’s how you might want to handle it. Would you add anything to that or what would you say? [13:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. I mean, it’s powerful when you think about it. And I think I said this in the group. It makes selling fun to me, you know, trying to understand, um, you know, Jeff’s communication style as I’m speaking with him, because our goal in sales is to communicate like them, right? Not like yourself. And I, from that point of view, uh, look, my opening pitch is the same, pretty much to everyone, but then you get into really understanding the dynamics of, you know, how they like to learn, how they like to be spoken to. And I find it fascinating myself.
Jeff Savlov: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really interesting, right?
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, so tell me something true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Jeff Savlov: So, I find sales is fun. Even though I am primarily sort of a consultant and I’m doing, you know, professional consulting services, um, I must find, I’m a solo guy. I must find my, you know, my own clients and serve them. And that is sales. And I think that sales really life is sales, not in a manipulative way, but life is about understanding people, seeing if there’s a common need or desire and then sort of going for it. And so, I find it a lot of fun. Sometimes I land a big client and then I’m disappointed. I must do the work. Not that I don’t enjoy the work, but I find sales just, I love the hunt. And I find it enjoyable. I don’t know, people think it’s crazy that aren’t into it. [14:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Great. It’s so funny, Noelle in our class for the longest time swore that she wasn’t in sales, but everybody is in sales, right? Everybody is in sales, whether they admit it or not. You want to go to a movie, and you want to persuade your partner or your family member to, or a friend, you want to see your movie, not their movie. So, I don’t know, I find sales fascinating, you know.
Jeff Savlov: Yeah, I’m with you there.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, so you come from your family business, you worked in sales and marketing, trained therapist and psychoanalyst. Is there anything else in store for you?
Jeff Savlov: Um, you know, I’ve said before, like when I became a therapist 30 years ago, I thought this was my final stop. And then I kind of fell into this. So, who knows, but I really like where I’m at now. It allows me to do a lot of things I like. I enjoy speaking and I’ve been getting sort of better and better fees for speaking. And I love speaking just on its own. So, to get paid to do it is fun. So, I think I’ll keep doing that. I like the families that I work with. Some of my families have businesses. Some of them don’t even have a business and they have just generational wealth without a business, but really big inherited wealth and they have a lot of the same issues around leadership and developing kids. So, there’s a lot of different things I can do, teaching parents, coaching parents with really young kids on how to raise them. I feel like I have so many different things that I can do that I’m not bored with it. So, who knows what the future brings. [16:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Hey, yeah, and you don’t you play a song when you travel a rock song to your people? When you go to conferences?
Jeff Savlov: I think you’re thinking of one of the workshops that I do, and I’ve done this to rooms of 200, 250 lawyers, accounts, wealth managers, as well as to families themselves. It’s called Drugs, Sex, Rock and Roll, Family Business, and Family Wealth Lessons from Metallica. And it’s, yeah, I play a song when I start it, but it’s the whole workshop is based on one-to-three-minute clips from a documentary about the band.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Metallica, right?
Jeff Savlov: Metallica, and while they’re not blood relatives in that sense of family, when I watched the documentary for fun many years ago, because I liked the band and I was interested in the documentary, when I watched it, I was shocked by how much they were very much a family and they’ve stuck together through thick and thin. And so, I use these clips from the documentary to start discussions and to teach professionals and families, and it’s really entertaining and it’s like the most well-received talk that I do. [17:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Just in general, how long does it take a family to like for the light bulb to go off, you know, with your work?
Jeff Savlov: It’s a good question. Some families just know that they’re in a lot of pain and there’s a lot of fighting and they’re looking for someone who can help other families. The light bulbs gone off and they’ve done a lot of the right things. But if you think about it, just a numbers game, you have two parents, maybe they have three kids, but they all grow up in the same family together. The kids get involved. They watch the parents build it. They’ve seen a go from nothing to something significant. That’s one transition. But then when the third generation comes. So, the three kids start to marry people who didn’t grow up in the family. So now you have outsiders coming in. Each of those kids has their own kids. That cousin generation is where it gets tricky. The people who married in might have very different ideas about how the kids should fit into the business and what a sense of fairness is. And the kids have different values based on the different families they’re growing up in. So that’s where it gets really, tricky. What was the original question? I forgot. [18:34]
Nancy Calabrese: Just how long it takes a family, you know, I guess there’s no special time, right? It varies from family to family.
Jeff Savlov: So, some people, you know, it takes a while. And for some people, there’s been a kind of a light bulb and they know that they can find someone like me to help them, especially when they hear about it. Often, they’re they don’t know that there’s someone with my experience and they’ll be talking or telling their fears to their accountant or their attorney or their wealth manager. And if that person knows me says, hey, you know, there is a world of, of help there that you might not know about. So, some people, the light bulbs already partially got off and they’re looking for help and other people they really are doing harmful things that are going to hurt their family and their business and they take some work to get them to kind of look at things a different way. [19:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I can’t believe we’re up with time, Jeff, and I could talk to you forever. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Jeff Savlov: Wow. It’s fun. For me, it’s relationships are everything in my personal life and selling. It’s really, I just, I love meeting people, connecting with people like you and I connected. And now we’re here on this podcast. I just think relationships are everything. So, if you’re selling something, you know, establishing a relationship with your prospects and just sort of in life. We just got back from a vacation in Puerto Rico and my wife just shakes her head. We get there and I’m in the pool and I’m talking to people from all over the world on vacation. She’s just sitting there reading a book and that’s what she likes to do. But I just like the relationship thing. And I developed friends in my week in Puerto Rico. [20:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Ha ha ha! Are you an I?
Jeff Savlov: I am an I, I and S. I’ve tested as I and S, I and a little D, but generally some form of I is always in there. Yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How can my rich people find you?
Jeff Savlov: Um, so it’s Jeff Savlov, S-A-V-L-O-V. My website is Blum and Savlov. So, it’s B-L- But if you search Jeff Savlov Family Business, any of those will get you to me.
Nancy Calabrese: All right. Hey folks, he’s the go-to guy. So, all of you sitting on a lot of wealth, you have kids, and you want to make sure that the wealth is, I guess, appreciated, and handled properly. Give Jeff a call, reach out to him. And Jeff, thanks so much for being on the show. We finally did it. And until we speak again, folks, we’ll see you next time. [21:15]
Jeff Savlov: Yeah, thanks, Nancy.
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 12, 2024 | Podcast
About Dave Kahle: Dave Kahle is the President of Kahle Way Sales Systems, a company where they help CEOs and VPs of Sales for Wholesale Distributors increase sales, gain market share, and significantly increase the ROI from their salespeople in 15-30 minutes a week. He is a B2B sales expert and Christian business thought leader. Dave helps his clients increase their sales and improve their sales productivity. He’s written twelve books, presented in 47 states and eleven countries, and has helped enrich tens of thousands of salespeople and transform hundreds of sales organizations. Sign up for his free weekly Ezine. Three international entities recognized his book, How to Sell Anything to Anyone Anytime, as “one of the five best English language business books.” Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Dave.
In this episode, Nancy and Dave discuss the following:
- The importance of sales processes
- Importance of sales processes: big picture vs. day-to-day
- Strategies to make prospects comfortable: first impressions, appropriate dressing, sharing personal details, effective questioning
- Investing in sales managers: their impact on salespeople’s behaviors
- Virtual selling: increased need for thorough preparation
- Use of “snippets” in sales conversations and their value in everyday life
Key Takeaways:
- Sharing something personal and unique about yourself breaks the barriers between you and the customer.
- The depth and detail of your question have a lot to do with how you make people comfortable with you.
- The sales managers are the in-between step between management and salespeople.
- Everybody can sell better if they choose to. They can.
“In that book, we talk about two different levels of sales process. The big-picture sales process is what a sales organization and the salesperson do over time. And then what I call the day-to-day or the nitty-gritty sales process is what a salesperson does with a customer or a prospect. […] Let me talk about the nitty-gritty sales process and how it relates to everyday activity. So, the first step in the prospect is to engage with the right people. And that can trump everything else. If you spend your time with the wrong people, no matter how well you do everything else, it’s a waste of time. So, step one is to engage with the right people. Step two is to make them comfortable with you. Because if they’re uncomfortable with you, they won’t react transparently and honestly. Step three: find out what they want. And again, there’s a whole body of content surrounding each of these. I mean, a couple of days’ training for each of these. The next step is to show them what you have given them and what they want. And again, that applies to anything, anywhere, anytime. That’s why it’s the title of the book. Then, you agree on the next step. And again, each one of these can be at least a couple of training days. At that point, you follow up because the decision is typically made in the business-to-business world. The decision to buy is typically made when you’re not there. So, you follow up and leverage satisfaction with this, which salespeople often neglect to do but to leverage satisfaction into additional internal or external opportunities. And then you know what? You’re back where you started from. So that’s the process. That’s the process that an individual salesperson uses to relate and sell anybody, anything. You have to do all those things regardless.” – DAVE
“There’s a whole lot of things, like number one, that is so often overlooked, and that is to make an excellent first impression—to look like you, to sound like someone that people can talk to and relate to. So that’s step one. And then there are so many things, like, for example, how you dress. I have a rule—you should dress like your customer, only a little better. So, if you’re a man wearing a suit and tie, calling on farmers, I mean, your suit and tie is separating you from connecting with that farmer, from making that customer comfortable with you. So, you dress like the customer, only a little bit better. And that’s the rule for everybody. And then, there’s sharing. I like to share something personal. It forces the customer to see you as a human being, not just a role player. You’re not just a salesperson; you’re a real person.- DAVE
“It’s here to stay, and it’s growing, and it has, and it required. It requires not necessarily something new, but the salespeople who are selling virtually have to be much better. For example, you cannot make an appointment to talk with somebody on a Zoom call and not be thoroughly prepared. You know, like so, the pressure to be thoroughly prepared so you’re not wasting time looking foolish on a Zoom call is far greater than if you stop by. You’re just going to stop by and see them, and sometimes you’re not fully prepared, but you cannot do that on a Zoom call. Now, it’s increased by a multiple. So, number one, they must be far more prepared. You know, with agendas and objectives of every sales call. That’s always been a best practice, but many have ignored it. You can’t ignore that anymore. And so, you know, that’s a big one. And then there are lots of things that kind of fall underneath that, things that you need to do when you’re selling virtually that you don’t necessarily need to pay that much attention to when you’re selling live.” – DAVE
Connect with Dave Kahle:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Dave Kahle, president of Kahle Way Sales Systems, enriching salespeople and transforming sales organizations by creating processes. strategies and systems of substance and delivering them via various media. Dave is a B2B sales guru and a Christian business thought leader. In the 30 years he has been in practice, he’s worked with over 500 individual companies. He’s presented in 11 countries and 47 states and authored 13 books, including the Good Book on Business, and How to Sell Anything to Anyone, Anytime. His books have been translated into eight languages and are available in 20 countries. Wow, Dave, welcome to the show.
Dave Kahle: Thank you, Nancy. It’s a pleasure and an honor to be here. [1:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, I’m delighted. I just want to jump right in. So how do you sell anything to anyone anytime?
Dave Kahle:Yeah, it’s about process, it’s about a sales process. And in that book, we talk about two different levels of sales process. The big picture sales process, which is what a sales organization and the salesperson does over time. And then what I call the day to day or the nitty gritty sales process, which is what a salesperson does with a customer or a prospect. [2:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Well, let’s talk about day to day a little bit. What activities should a salesperson do each day to keep their pipeline filled with qualified prospects and keep their clients happy?
Dave Kahle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So let me answer that in a roundabout way. First, let me talk about the nitty -gritty sales process and then how it relates to everyday activity. So, the first step in the prospect is to engage with the right people. And that can trump everything else. If you’re spending your time with the wrong people, then no matter how well you do everything else, it’s a waste of time. So, step one is to engage with the right people. Step two is to make them comfortable with you. Because if they’re not comfortable with you, then they’re not going to react transparently and honestly. Step three, find out what they want. And again, there’s a whole body of content surrounding each of these. I mean, a couple days training for each of these. The next step is to show them how what you have given them what they want. And again, that applies to anything, anywhere, anytime. That’s why it’s the title of the book. Then you agree on the next step. And again, each one of these can be a whole couple day of training, at least. And then at that point, you follow up because the decision is typically made in the business-to-business world. Decision to buy is typically made when you’re not there. So, you follow up and leverage satisfaction with this, which is something salespeople often neglect to do, but to leverage satisfaction into additional opportunities, either internal or external. And then you know what? You’re back where you started from. So that’s the process. That’s the process that an individual salesperson uses to relate and sell anybody, anything. You have to do all those things regardless. So now back to the question of filling up your pipeline. It depends on your sales situation. There are some situations where you’re constantly looking for new customers, but I’ve had a number of clients who everybody knows all the customers already. There’s not an issue of finding new customers because they know them all in the industry that they’re in. So, it really depends. A lot of those very specific things depend on the individual industry and your sales process, your specific sales process. [4:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So how do you make your prospects or your clients comfortable with you? What are some of your tricks?
Dave Kahle: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I, you know, I guess I’m a little uncomfortable with the word tricks. I would say, you know, tactics, but, but of course, uh, there’s, you know, this is, this is an area that’s been researched and studied for a long time. And, and there’s a whole, I mean, there’s a whole lot of things like number one, you know, this is so often, uh, overlooked and that is to make a good first impression, you know, to look like you, to look like you’re someone or sound like you’re someone that people can talk to and relate to. So that’s step one. And then there are so many things like, for example, how you dress, you know, the state of your dress, you should, and I have a rule, you should dress like your customer, only a little better. You know, so if you’re wearing, if you’re a man wearing a suit and tie, calling on farmers, I mean, your suit and tie is separating you from connecting with that farmer, from making that customer comfortable with you. So, you dress like the customer only a little bit better. And that’s the rule for everybody. And then, you know, there’s sharing, I like to say share something personal, you know, because when you share something personal and unique about yourself, it breaks the barriers between you and the customer. So, it forces the customer to see you as a human being and not just a role player. You know, you’re not just a salesperson, you’re a real person. [6:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Dave Kahle: And then of course, and this was subject to one of my books, it’s called Question Your Way to Sales Success. One way is the depth and detail of your questions. It has a lot to do with how you make people comfortable with you. And again, there’s all kinds of things. So typically, in this body of content that we’re talking about here, there’s the whole idea of matching personality styles, reading personality styles, and people use the DISC format, you know, DSE. And so matching or something I call the chameleon salesperson, changing your style to fit the style of the person that you’re working with. So, I mean, you know, there’s, again, that’s a very specific, well -researched, powerful strategy that can be applied over time. I mean, you learn to do that over time. So that’s just the beginning of what is just a whole lot of strategies and tactics and habits that can be developed to make the person comfortable with you. [7:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. You know, I, I love that you brought up DISC and matching your prospects or client style. And that’s why I find sales so fascinating because you must become more like them and be less of you. Right. And you must figure it out as soon as possible. Yeah. In a conversation. Huh? Um, you are a big believer in investing in sales managers. Why is that important?
Dave Kahle: Yes. Yeah. Because one of the things I do for a living is I work with sales forces from the top down. So, the chief sales officer or the CEO, whoever is the chief sales decision maker. And typically, we look at the system first and arrange for changes to be made in the structure of the sales system. So, things like compensation plans and does your compensation plan reward the people for doing what you want them to do? Typically, it doesn’t. And typically, the decisions that have been made about structure are decisions that have been made in an earlier generation and people have them, they don’t even know why they have it. So first we work with structure and then we work with the sales managers because the sales managers, their routines, and the things that they do with their salespeople have a tremendous impact on what the salesperson does. So first the structure, then the sales managers, and then finally we work with the sales team itself to instill some of the behaviors that we’re talking about here. So, the sales managers are the in -between step between management and salespeople. [9:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh. Talk about your sales management system.
Dave Kahle: Hmm. Yeah. So, so this is a system we’ve created over the years, and you know, we’ve taught it to over 2 ,400 sales managers. We have it. We have two cohorts going on right now. It’s a, it’s a, it’s an eight-part, eight module courses. And people, people take the coursework online and then we get together for a zoom meeting with all, with all the people in the course. And we keep it. We keep it no more than 15 in each group so that people can relate to one another and talk with one another and so on. But it instills a system for sales management because what the sales manager does and what he requires and the kind of relationship that he has with his people is just incredibly important. So, we have created a system. We instill the system, say, do these things. And we have a whole series of what I call best, the best practices of the best sales managers that we teach sales managers in the system. [10:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. You also mentioned you believe that there are principles or practices that will make the greatest impact on a person’s sales performance. What are they?
Dave Kahle: Yes. Well, you know, so I’m asking, I’m often asked, Dave, is there, is there one, if there’s only one thing you could do with a business-to-business Salesforce to improve their sales, what would it be? And I answer typically there’s, there’s two things, but the number one thing, you know, if there’s only one place, I can make some changes in a sales team’s behavior and their routines. The number one thing I would do now, again, we’re talking about business-to-business salespeople. The number one thing I would do would be to teach them how to rank and prioritize their accounts based on their potential. And it sounds so simple. Doesn’t everybody do that? No, no, they don’t. They go where it’s comfortable. They go where people are calling them. Instead of doing a real formal, and again, we have a system that we teach people to do, but it begins with looking for two issues. And one is what I call partner ability. So, we rate every prospect and every customer on their partner ability, which is subjective. It’s who the customer is, not how big they are. And then number two, we look for something we call QPC, which is Quantified purchasing capacity and that one says if they bought everything, they could from me in the next 12 months How much would that be? So, we create we create some boundaries around that number so we can compare one to the other Because we know we’re talking about again everything if they bought everything, they could for me in the next 12 months How much would it be? So, it’s an annual purchase and We take both those we turn those into numbers, so there’s a number for QPC and a number for partner ability, we put them together and the highest ranking are the highest potential. I mean, it’s straightforward, although there’s quite a bit of detail to it, but it’s straightforward. And the issue is, and again, the biggest issue is getting people to understand we’re ranking prospects and customers based on their potential, not on their history. And a lot of salespeople just really have a hard time getting their heads around that. [13:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Dave Kahle: Because if I ask, if I ask, show me your best accounts, everyone will go give me a computer printout, show me how much they bought last year. And I would say, well, that’s fine, that’s fine, but nobody cares. That’s not the question. The question is not how much they bought last year. The question is how much could they buy this year? That’s a whole different question. And it gets people thinking about the future, not the past. So, there’s a whole lot of stuff around that. But I will say this, when we instill that system of ranking and prioritizing your accounts, and people do it. Typically we see dramatic impacts on performance within six months and the most common, I know this is going to sound crazy, the most common testimonial that I get from people who’ve done this, you know, used our system for a couple years, the most common thing I hear, and you’re not going to believe this, but the most common thing I hear is triple, triple. Dave, we haven’t increased our business by 15 % or 20, we’ve tripled it. This is the single most impactful, most powerful practice to instill in a business-to-business sales force that will get the biggest bang for the buck. [14:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. But how do you figure out what a company is going to purchase in the 12 months? How do you do that?
Dave Kahle: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, well, the first group, first, the simplest, sometimes the simplest ideas are the best, you know, you ask, you ask now, now, and, you know, some people won’t tell you because they don’t know or they don’t think, you know, but when you ask, you’ll probably knock off about 50 % of them. Okay. So, what do you, so what do you do with the other 50 %? Well, you, you, you get some measurable number in that organization that you can use to compare with them with something else. So, it could, and it’s almost anything, you know, so it could be numbers of employees. So, here’s a manufacturer of X with 200 employees. And here’s a manufacturer of X, same thing with a hundred employees. You know, the hundreds number, the 200, you can, you just do a little formula, you know, and you put some number on it. You know, for here’s an example. So, I have worked with a number of HVAC distributors. So, they’re selling. There’s selling to the people who fix your air conditioning furnace. So, if you say how much are you going to buy this year, how much will you buy in total of this category? And they say, well, I don’t know. You say, OK, how many trucks do you have on the road? Because there is a number for trucks. So, if they say, well, we have 15 trucks. And you know that every truck equals $50 ,000, just 15 times 50. And you got it. There it is. So, there’s almost always some collectible, accessible measurement that you can use and put a formula on it. And again, the formula’s gotta take a little work, but you create the formula, put it on some measurement, and there you go. [16:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, you know, let’s talk about virtual selling because that’s the way the world has become. I think it’s here to stay. What are your thoughts on that?
Dave Kahle: Yeah Absolutely, it’s here to stay and it’s growing and it has and it required it requires Not necessarily something new but the salespeople who are selling virtue have to be better much better for for example You cannot make an appointment just to talk with somebody on a zoom call and not be thoroughly prepared You know like so the pressure? to be thoroughly prepared so you’re not wasting time looking foolish on a Zoom call is far greater than if you stop by, you’re just going to stop by and see them and sometimes you’re not fully prepared, but you cannot do that on a Zoom call. So, you must be, the pressure to be prepared, well, it was always there. Now it’s increased by a multiple. So, number one, they must be far more prepared. You know, with agendas, objectives of every sales call. Like that’s always been a best practice, but a lot of people have ignored it. You can’t ignore that anymore. And so, you know, so that’s a big one. And then there’s lots of things that kind of fall underneath that things that you need to do when you’re selling virtually that you don’t necessarily need to pay that much attention to when you’re selling live. [17:31]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, I never thought of it that way. Are you a big fan of scripts in sales?
Dave Kahle: Yeah. You know, I’m a fan of what I call snippets. So, snippets are pieces of conversation that you use repeatedly. And you take the time to prepare them and do them as well as you can. And then you memorize them. So, things like, I mean, you know, the best example is probably what we’ve all talked about an elevator speech. Okay, so this is who you are, what your company is, why the customer should care. And so, you’re going to say that, you know, you’re going to use that piece of conversation hundreds of times. So why not prepare it? Why not sit down, put it together as best you can and then memorize it. And then when somebody says, hi, so what do you do? It comes out in a, in a powerful confident way because you prepare to be forehand so snippets of Conversation that you find yourself using over and over again those things ought to be prepared Memorized and used over and over and so I so I believe in snippets not necessarily scripts. [18:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, I’m in your corner and I think the key is once you really, if you’re saying the same thing repeatedly, it becomes a part of you. You’re not reading anything and it also grounds you, right? So, you’re not winging the conversation. Dave, I can’t believe we’re up in time already. You are fascinating. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Dave Kahle: Everybody can sell better if you choose to. You can. There are principles and practices that have been proven to help people sell better and everybody can. [19:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I agree with you again, 100%. So how can my audience find you?
Dave Kahle: Go to my website, https://www.davekahle.com/. And we’ve got bunches and bunches of resources, free resources, and we do webinars and just all kinds of stuff there. But the starting point is just the front page of DaveKale .com. And click on stuff that you’re interested in. For example, I do a weekly, what I call an E -zine called Sell Better. It goes to thousands of business-to-business salespeople and their bosses every week. So, you can sign up for that. I do podcast shows a little different. I do a 10-minute sort of lesson every week. And so, you know, there’s all kinds of stuff like that. Just go to the website page and connect with something and take it from there. [20:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Hey folks, you heard it right from the expert here. Reach out to Dave, take advantage of his resources. Let’s all learn how to sell better, you know, each and every day. Dave, thanks so much for spending time with us. Again, you’re entertaining. And to all of you out there, I wish you an amazing sales day. Until next time, go get going. Reach out to Dave. Take care. [21:15]
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 9, 2024 | Podcast
About Craig Lowder: Craig Lowder is the Founder and President of the Main Spring Sales Group, a specialized client acquisition consultancy focused on creating significant, predictable and sustainable sales growth for successful Financial Advisors, Consultants and Business Leaders making a 6-7 Figure Income seeking a strategic senior-level sales executive on a part-time, contract basis to develop and execute sales strategy, including sales process development, performance management systems, and ensure sales execution. With a 30-year track record of helping business owners and sales teams achieve their goals, as author of two highly-rated books, Smooth Selling Forever and Trusted Advisor Confidential℠, and as Founder and President of the Main Spring Sales Group, Craig has learned that success in sales comes down to three things: process, teamwork and access to experience that shortens the learning curve. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Craig.
In this episode, Nancy and Craig discuss the following:
- Craig’s journey into sales
- The importance of understanding buyer journeys and aligning sales strategies accordingly
- The specifics of Craig’s target industries
- The value of choosing the right fit for sales roles within organizations
- Assessments in hiring salespeople: value or harm?
- Exploration of Craig’s new book “Trusted Advisor Confidential”
- Recommendations on maintaining a healthy sales funnel
- Increasing importance and the shift in buyer behavior towards virtual selling
Key Takeaways:
- The basis of selling is understanding the person that you’re talking to from a professional as well as a personal level so that you can communicate with them effectively.
- A professionally statistically valid assessment helps you to determine whether what you’re looking at is real.
- We were going towards virtual selling prior to COVID and COVID was just like the spark plug that initiated the change.
- If you think effective virtual selling is a 20-to-30-minute conversation at max, maybe 40, but the shorter the better.
“I have not found a company yet that has a defined, documented sales recruiting process. Step by step: what are the steps, who’s involved, what are the desired outcomes? So, number one: having a documented sales hiring process. Number two: developing filtering questions based on the characteristics that you’re seeking, so that you can also build an interview scorecard, which will tell you whether they’re a good fit for your organization.” – CRAIG
“I’ve been on a four-decade journey of being a trusted advisor, a salesperson, a business development person, a new client acquisition person. And I saw a huge gap out there for individuals who are in business. The only way that they can earn a living is by eating what they sell. Unfortunately, whether they’re financial advisors, commercial bankers, insurance brokers, consultants, coaches, or even marketing firms, they’re very, very good at delivery, but they’re not very competent or competent in developing new clients, having a process to do that. And with those, in many cases, particularly those who have letters after their name (PhD, JD, even MBA, I can say that because I have one of those), they go, “No, no, no, selling is too far below me.” So, in the book, we don’t use the word selling, but that’s really what it is. If you were to ask every one of them, “Would you like to have more of the right fit clients?” Unanimously, they’re going to say, “Yes.” Well, as you and I know, that’s technically business development and social selling. But it’s like taking the curse off the call by talking about client acquisition. So, trusted advisor confidentiality is about communicating to them what are the six stars (and we’re using that in celestial terms) that they need to follow to successively build a book of business filled with right-fit clients and significantly increase their personal income. And those stars include: targeting, messaging, sales process mapping, establishing sales success standards, effective generation, and having a healthy funnel.” – CRAIG
“Well, the six stars are developed in a hierarchical fashion. You have to have a good target audience and you have to have a message that resonates with them, and you have to have a lead conversion process that mirrors how they buy. So, it really all starts with targeting the right prospects, the right audience so that you can get the most out of your marketing activities as well as your limited sales time.” – CRAIG
Connect with Craig Lowder:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking again with Craig Lowder, author of Smooth Selling Forever, a sales effectiveness expert with a 30 plus year track record of helping owners of small and mid -sized businesses achieve their sales goals. He is also the founder and president of MainSpring Sales Group, which assists companies needing a strategic sales leader on a part -time contract or project basis to develop and execute a sales strategy, develop sales process and performance management systems, and ensure sales execution. Craig has worked with over 60 companies and increased first year annual sales from 21 to 142%. Great job, Craig. Welcome back to the show.
Craig Lowder: Well, thank you, Nancy. It’s an honor and a privilege to be here talking to a fellow sales professional. [1:24]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, we both love selling and I know I asked you this in our last podcast, but let’s, you know, review it again. Why do we love it so much?
Craig Lowder: from my perspective, I’m basically a teacher. It’s all about helping others and creating life abundance for my client. And everything starts with what we can call selling business development, new client acquisition, but helping identify the undiscovered, unknown needs that a business has in growing is the beginning of the selling process and matching the needs of that organization, that individual with some options so that they can take actual steps is what selling is all about. And selling, I think a lot of people that are not professional salespeople, and even there are some that are professional salespeople, think that sales can be a little bit manipulative. It should not be. It should be going down the road in the same direction at the same speed with your prospect and trying to define a solution that fully addresses their specific needs. [2:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. How did you get involved in sales?
Craig Lowder: Oh, gee. You know, it’s really a long story. You know, I was a wannabe professional athlete that just didn’t have the talent. But that’s all about selling the coaches or whatever on your ability to get the job done. But when I went to college, and I wanted to become a psychologist and I found there was too much gray area for me after two years. And I sat back, and I started reading some books on marketing and selling. And if you remember the old, old, old Ford commercials where the light bulb went on, the light bulb went on. And I said, this is what I want to do because I really wanted to be a teacher, Nancy. And at that time, there was no opportunity to get into teaching back in the mid-seventies. [3:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, okay. And then, so you opted for sales.
Craig Lowder: I opted for sales, and I did sales and marketing. And as we say to many of our clients, we went to the dark side. We moved away from marketing and moved out in front of the customer with the whole idea of help identifying needs and providing solutions to those needs. And I found it extremely rewarding. [4:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, and you probably used the two years that you studied psychology also in your sales skills. Wouldn’t you agree?
Craig Lowder: Oh, absolutely. The basis of selling is understanding the person that you’re talking to from a professional as well as a personal level so that you can communicate with them effectively. And when I say effectively, there’s one definition that somebody shared with me years ago, and it’s always stuck with me. Communication equals the response that you receive. And if you don’t receive the response that you’re seeking, the communication may have not been there. [5:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. Now when you describe the sales process, you use the steps assess, design, deploy, and execute. Tell us more about that.
Craig Lowder: Sure, thank you for asking, Nancy. That is really a closed loop system and everything that we do and everything that any of us do in making an informed decision, we must first assess our situation, design a solution, deploy that solution, and make sure that it’s executed effectively. And then we because the process is an iterative process, we should be always on the look -up, constantly looking for seeking ways to improve or enhance the process. [6:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. How do you execute it properly? Like what are the things that need to be put in place to ensure that execution is correct?
Craig Lowder: Oh, that’s really a great question, Nancy. And too many sellers are looking at, well, this is what we sell, and this is how we want it sold, as opposed to starting with your buying audience and identifying the steps that they’re going to go through in terms of making an informed decision for them. And that’s what I refer to as a buyer journey. And that’s where we start in developing a sales process. So, what is the buyer journey of your target audience? What steps are they going to go through? Once we define that, now we can build a process that mirrors how they buy. [7:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, interesting. Now you play in the small and mid -sized businesses. Do you target certain industries or are your industry agnostic?
Craig Lowder: Nancy, it’s really all industries apply, the principles apply, they’re executed differently. But my focus is B2B. I do a lot of manufacturing, a lot of distribution companies, and believe it or not, although they spent 20 years in professional services, application software, I do some work in that area, but most of those companies are too early stage to really take advantage of what I do. My typical audience is anywhere from five to, quite frankly, 125 million with a sweet spot somewhere between 10 and 50. [7:52]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow. And like, what are their frustrations? So, I’m speaking with a prospect, and I hear them complaining about ABC. What am I going to hear from them that would make me think of you or have them come to you?
Craig Lowder: Typically, what they will say is, our sales are not growing as we anticipated or expected. And so, we’re not generating predictable and sustainable results. That’s one area. They don’t have a system and strategy. And secondly, they say, gosh. The world has changed and my salespeople, my sales leader is not functioning in the way that they used to, which means their biggest challenge is recruiting and retaining right fit members of their sales team. [8:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. You know, which brings up a very good point, having the right people in an organization will make or break its success. So how do people recognize that salesperson A is a fit, but salesperson B is not? What do you suggest companies do?
Craig Lowder: Well, that’s a great question because I have not found a company yet that has a defined, documented sales recruiting process. Step by step, what are the steps, who’s involved, what are the desired outcomes? So, number one, having a documented sales hiring process. Number two, developing filtering questions based on the characteristics that you’re speaking are seeking so that you can also build an interview scorecard which will tell you whether they’re a good fit for your organization. A case in point. I had a client a number of years ago that sold banners and flags and their salespeople were expected to close 20 plus transactions a week in the range of 500 to $1 ,000. The owner of the company brought somebody in that sold MRI systems. And I think you know where I’m going with this, Nancy. The owner said, I love this individual. He dresses great. He’s so articulate. Wow. And I said, go through your scorecard. And he went through an agreement and goes, he’s not a fit. And I said, that’s right. He’s not a fit. MRI systems, if he sells one or two in a year in the sales process is 12 months, 24 months long. He’s not going to create enough activity for you to generate the type of sales that you’re accustomed to generating. So, it’s not that he’s a bad person. He’s just not a right fit for your role. [10:59] The other thing, Nancy, I go ahead. []
Nancy Calabrese: You know that I had. No, no, no, go, go finish.
Craig Lowder: I was going to say the other things that I find that most companies don’t do, they do not know how to effectively conduct reference checks. Or they will just give up and say, well, they’re useful. Any sales candidate can come up with two or three shills that they know that’ll say nice things about them. And I say, nay, nay, nay, during the interviewing process, as you go through your discovery, you’re either seeking to validate what you’ve learned that’s positive, and you’re also speaking to fill in the gaps where things are missing. So, when you’re doing reference checks based on your interviewing, I may say to you, Nancy, I’d like to talk to your superior at Ajax. I’d like to talk to a customer at that company. I’d like to talk to a peer or a subordinate. And very quickly, you will be able to ascertain whether they can come through or not. Too many times do I hear Oh, I had a great relationship with my boss. I left because I was looking to have the opportunity to be promoted. When I’ve asked him to talk to that superior, oh, and this is a real-life case. Oh, I don’t know where to find her. She’s retired. Well, I thought you said you had a good relationship with this person. Are they on Linkbook or face, LinkedIn, or Facebook? Well, I really don’t know. So, suddenly, you’re starting to see some bad signals there. [12:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Red flags.
Craig Lowder: Red flags, bad vibes, yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. And do you believe in assessments before you hire a salesperson?
Craig Lowder: Absolutely, Nancy, and I know you and I both believe that’s the case. There are so many variables. A professionally statistically valid assessment helps you to determine what you’re looking at is real. In fact, right before we got on the call here, I have a client that’s looking to hire a salesperson. They took the sales assessment that I use, and I gave them feedback. This is a great transactional competitive salesperson, but they’re not best suited for a multiple buying influence long -term sale. [13:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, interesting.
Craig Lowder: So, as you know, it’s just one other point that you need to check to make sure that you’re making a right hire. And the old philosophy is married slowly, is really, important here. And fortunately, too many people say, I really like this person. They worked for a competitor in our industry. They probably really know their stuff and you find out they’re looking for a reason, and in most cases, it’s related to non -performance. [14:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. Well, let’s talk about your new book, Trusted Advisor Confidential. What’s it about and what motivated you to write it?
Craig Lowder: Well, thank you for asking. You know, I’ve been on a four-decade journey of being a trusted advisor, a salesperson, a business development person, a new client acquisition person. And I saw a huge gap out there for individuals who are in business. And the only way that they can earn a living is by eating what they sell. And unfortunately, whether they’re financial advisors,
commercial bankers, insurance brokers, consultants, coaches, and even marketing firms, they’re very, very good at delivery, but they’re not very competent or competent in developing new clients, having a process to do that. And with those, in many cases, particularly those who have letters after their name, PhD, JD, even MBA, I can say that because I have one of those. They go, no, no, no, selling is too far below me. So, in the book, we don’t use the word selling, but that’s really what it is. If you were to ask every one of them, would you like to have more of the right fit clients? Unanimously, they’re going to say, yes. Well, as you and I know, that’s technically business development and social selling. But it’s like taking the curse off the call by talking client acquisition. So, trusted advisor confidential is about communicating to them what are the six stars, and we’re using that in celestial terms that they need to follow to successively build a book of business filled with right fit clients and significantly increase their personal income. And those stars include one, targeting, two, messaging, three, sales process mapping, four, establishing sales success standards. Five, effectively generation. And six, is having a healthy funnel. [16:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So how do you, how do you, well, what do you recommend people do to have a healthy funnel?
Craig Lowder: Well, the six stars are developed in a hierarchical fashion. You have to have a good target audience and you have to have a message that resonates with them, and you have to have a lead conversion process that mirrors with how they buy. So, it really all starts with targeting the right prospects, the right audience, so that you can get the most out of your marketing activities as well as your limited sales time. [17:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, wow, really cool. And you know, I want to wrap this up, but let’s just mention virtual selling, the world in which we live. I think it’s going to be around for a long time. What do you have to say about it?
Craig Lowder: Nancy, it’s going to be around for as far as we can see in our lives. And we were going towards virtual selling prior to COVID. And COVID was just like the spark plug that initiated the change. I was very blessed to be published in Forbes right after COVID started. And the writer came back to me and says, oh look at the article that McKinsey came out with. They’re saying the same thing that you are. And I said, I stand corrected. I’m saying the same things that they are saying. It’s not the other way around. They know what they’re talking about. But what we’re seeing is, and this is, here’s the insidious thing, Nancy. It’s being driven by the buyers. The buyers are saying, salespeople suck up too much of my time. [18:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Hehehe. Right.
Craig Lowder: The cordialities are too much. I cannot get all the buying influences in the room. It’s logistically impossible. It takes too much time. Bottom line, we cannot make the best-informed decisions for our business. So virtual selling facilitates our ability to make the best decisions in a shorter timeframe involving the right people who need to be involved in the process and if you think about this, when I teach virtual selling, I used to ask the question, is virtual selling new? And everyone would say yes. And I’d say, well, let’s think back. Have you thinking of a Sears catalog, newspaper ads, Ron Pappil and Vegematic? Those are all virtual selling. [19:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh my god. Vegematic. Oh, God.
Craig Lowder: So, it’s always been there, but in a B2B environment, more and more buyers are insisting that they have the opportunity to buy virtually. And if you think about more millennials getting into the market where they’re making informed buying decisions, most of them are focused on doing their research online and meeting or conversing virtually, not in -person meetings. [19:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Hey, I think, you know, virtual selling is fabulous. It saves you so much time travel to and from. And you can do it out of the comfort of your home or out of your office. And you still accomplish the same thing.
Craig Lowder: And we have. Absolutely, it must be structured differently. If you think effective virtual selling is a 20-to-30-minute conversation at max, maybe 40, but the shorter the better. So, you have more meetings, shorter meetings. What that does, it puts the onus on the seller to be well prepared in setting out the agenda in conjunction with the buying audience and making sure that they deliver on the agreed upon outcomes for that conversation. And for me as a… Go ahead. [20:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, Craig, our time is up. I hate to stop this, but how can my people find you? You’re fascinating.
Craig Lowder: Well, my wife would beg differently. She says I should be on the stage and there’s one leaving in 20 minutes. But the best way to reach me is you can call me at 630 -649 -4943 or you can email me at Craig, C -R -A -I -G, at Smooth S -M -O -O -T -H, Selling S -E -L -L -I -N -G forever, f -o -r -e -v -e -r dot com. [21:20]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise once again. You’re a great guest and audience. Take advantage of this man’s knowledge and wealth of knowledge. You know, if you are struggling with finding the right salespeople, if you’re not hitting quota, he is the go -to guy. So, thanks again, Craig, for being on the show. And for everyone out there, make it an awesome sales day. [21:51]
