John Lester: Psychology, Mindset, and Success in Sales

About John Lester: John Lester is the Founder of Attitude Selling, helping struggling organizations and salespeople become sustainable revenue creators. Throughout his career, John has been acknowledged as a transformational leader, specializing in revitalizing underperforming organizations. He possesses a deep understanding of opportunity development, excelling in identifying and seizing market opportunities to accelerate expansion and boost revenue through fostering collaborative partnerships, strategic connections, and new market segmentation. Having managed extremely large and complex accounts, John understands the importance of delivering quality, consistent service. He exhibits a unique talent for root-cause analysis, swiftly pinpointing the core issues clients face and articulating them effectively while establishing optimal courses of action. He recognizes that business is ever-evolving. John’s observations underscore the critical importance of aligning the organization along the “lead to satisfied customer” continuum for achieving large-scale, repeatable success in sales. John is also the author of “Winning the Inner Game of Sales: The Foundation of Success is Mindset.” Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about John.

In this episode, Nancy and John discuss the following:

  • John Lester’s background and expertise in sales
  • Sales as an art and the importance of human connection
  • Challenges in sales and the impact of mental models
  • The importance of understanding buyers and their psychology
  • Difficulties solopreneurs face in sales
  • Explanation of Attitude Selling and its focus on mindset
  • The Sales Mastermind program and its purpose

Key Takeaways: 

  • Good salespeople help others achieve their dreams, goals, and objectives.
  • All these mental models are in your head, and until you get them out, they won’t work.
  • Wait a minute, if the person asks about price, wouldn’t it be worth figuring out why they’re asking about price right away instead of pushing that conversation away?
  • You’re not going to make progress if you don’t get pushed.

“Sales is so amazing for a couple of reasons. One is because it is not a science as much as it’s an art. It is not practical as much as it’s human. And what you’re really dealing with in sales is human behaviors and human emotions. You can’t predict any of that. And that makes it so much fun. But the other thing that’s so amazing about sales is that good salespeople help other people achieve their dreams, their goals, their objectives.” – JOHN

“I would say the biggest misconception about the role of selling is that the seller needs to go, “Excuse me, but beat the living daylights out of the buyer into submission.” All right? Don’t. Stop. All right? It doesn’t work. But there’s so many. Sellers are told and taught, and hopefully not that much anymore, but told and taught that the buyer is uninformed, buys on price, and knows what they want. Stop! They were wrong, okay? The buyer buys because they think it’s a good deal. No, none of its true. None of its true. They all come into play, but none of its true.” – JOHN

“Great question, but it’s natural, and I want all the solopreneurs listening to take a deep breath. The solopreneurs, for the most part, start a business because they have some kind of expertise. Usually, it’s technical expertise, some kind of subject matter that they know about, whether it’s a physician, a psychologist, or a plumber. They go, “Hey, I want to deliver that expertise.” So, they understand their expertise, and again, this goes back to what I said in the very beginning: their expertise is a technical, definable offering. But the decision to buy their expertise is not technical; it’s not definable; it’s human; it’s behavioral. And so, they’re operating at this technical level, which is fine. Still, in order to sell, they have to change who they are to a certain extent and operate at the human level, and operate at the—I will say—political, not in the sense that everybody thinks of political, but political from the perspective of interaction. They’re not used to doing that. I mean, I don’t know how many schools in the country at any level offer such courses on how to come to an agreement, how to read another person. I don’t know anybody who does, but you need those things. We have lots of classes on accounting.” – JOHN

Connect with John Lester:

Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/

Connect with Nancy Calabrese: 

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.

Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with John Lester, the owner of Attitude Selling. He helps organizational change makers reinvent their sales processes so they can keep clients longer, get recommended more often, and upsell, cross-sell on a more consistent basis. He’s spent the last 40 years in direct selling, sales management, sales process improvement, and messaging. John’s work has ranged from very large fortune accounts, primarily in the financial services space to small firms trying to create a sustainable and repeatable sales process. Welcome to the show, John. Let’s get started.

John Lester: Thank you, Nancy. So happy to be here. Yes, let’s. There’s a whole lot to talk. [1:17]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I know. So why is sales so amazing?

John Lester: Sales is so amazing for a couple of reasons. One, because it is not a science as much as it’s an art. It is not practical as much as it’s human. And what you’re really dealing with in sales is human behaviors and human emotions. You can’t predict any of that. And that makes it so much fun. But the other thing that’s so amazing about sales is that good salespeople help other people achieve their dreams, their goals, their objectives. [1:56]

Nancy Calabrese: Huh, I like that. I’ve never thought of it that way, but yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. Now, I know you have stated that many people are challenged by sales. You point out, they are not alone. So, most of what is holding people back is mental models built over the years. Can you go into that a little bit more? [2:23]

John Lester: Yeah, definitely. We all have, like it or not, so folks don’t get all upset about this. First, we’re human. The definition, one of the definitions of human is imperfect. So, we are all imperfect, of course, except for my mother-in-law, God bless her soul, but we’re not going to go there right now. All right, so we have prejudices, we have beliefs, we have all sorts of things that we grew up with. I mean, there’s enough studies out there to talk about the fact that somewhere along the lines of 60% of your personality is cast in stone by the time you’re five or six or seven years old. Which means that things are affecting you in the womb. All right, forget about when you get out and go to grandma school or kindergarten or whatever. They’re affecting you in the womb. Comments that are made, you know, may be offhanded by your parents, by neighbors, by relatives are interpreted by your immature brain completely differently. And so, you then have these things, and they keep getting reinforced over the years and over the years. So, I’ll give you a couple of examples. Don’t trust that person, he’s a salesperson. Might’ve been said when you were three years old. All right. Oh, oh, yeah, don’t go near them. They live in the black neighborhood. And I see this, I’m not trying to pick on anybody. I’m serious. This is the and its little stuff that happens like this. All right, advertising. Advertising is one of the greatest reasons we believe some of the things that we believe. Some of it negative, most of it positive because they’re trying to get us to buy a product or something. But again, this is all implanted into our brain. So, you’ll get things like, oh, I don’t have any value. Oh, I don’t know enough to go and talk to a CEO of a company that’s got 30 years experience. I’m 26 or 27 or 30 years old. [4:16]

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

John Lester: I’m not an expert in that. How can I go in and speak? All these mental models are in your head. And until you get them out, and we’re not going to go back and say, oh, let’s put you through 30 years of psychoanalysis. Now, let’s just figure out what’s holding you back. Let’s figure out a quick fix to get around it. Let’s move on. That’s what I’m trying to help people do. [4:39]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Right. But how do you get it out of your head? I mean, how long does it take?

John Lester: I mean, I’ve had certain things that I can get out of people’s heads in minutes just because they didn’t think about it a certain way, because it was never presented to them that way. So, I’m going to give you one of my favorite ones. And again, the timing might be not 100% of this, but let’s say 60 or 70 years ago, okay? In Japan, bluefin tuna was considered a waste fish thrown back. Do you know what top-end bluefin tuna goes for at the wholesale markets in Japan? You’re talking thousands of dollars per pound. But it was, somebody then said, wait a minute, what’s going on? Why are we doing this? All right. There’s a, I just read this, this is so amazing. I believe its Asian carp were imported into this or brought into this country, maybe legally, maybe illegally. And now they’re overrunning our waterways in certain states. I mean, this is becoming a serious ecological concern. So, the restaurant industry is trying to figure out how to promote Asian carp on the menus, because they have no natural predator. So, yeah, so everything, yeah, I mean, right? Tomatoes were considered poisonous up until somebody said, wait a minute, I want some pasta. I mean, these are, yeah, early days, yeah, tomatoes were considered poisonous. It’s true. [6:10]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow.

John Lester: So, all of these things affect how we act and affect what we are willing to do and not willing to do. Oh, if I talk to this person about something, I’m going to be rejected. So how often do you think that person is going to talk to them?

Nancy Calabrese: Great. Wow.

John Lester: So, some of these things are easy to get across, some of them are harder. But I’ve had some good successes with folks in the five-week program that I run. And a lot of it is, people need somebody to tell them it’s OK to question something and they need somebody to pull it out of them. Because look, the truth of the matter is, when the thunderstorm comes, we all want to crawl under the bed. We all do. There’s nothing wrong with that. But if the house is burning, you might not want to be crawling under the bed. [7:04]

Nancy Calabrese: True. So what is the biggest misconception about the role of selling?

John Lester: I would say the biggest misconception about the role of selling is that the seller needs to go, excuse me, but beat the living daylights out of the buyer into submission. All right? Don’t. Stop. All right? It doesn’t work. But there’s so many. Sellers are told and taught, and hopefully not that much anymore, but told and taught that the buyer is uninformed, that the buyer buys on price, that the buyer knows what they want. Stop! They were wrong, okay? That the buyer buys because they think it’s a good deal. No, none of its true. None of its true. They all come into play, but none of its true. [8:05]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Well, why don’t we as salespeople understand buyers?

John Lester: There’s, what I believe has happened is, we’ll take you back a little bit. The economy that we live in for the most part, now it has been changing over the last, I would say, 20 years, but for the most part was shaped by efforts that were made in the Second World War. Because the Second World War was all about taking the country and creating efficiency out of that country. And it was really from the perspective of producing arms and armaments for the war effort. And to some extent, we won that war because we were able to produce, and we were able to create supply lines. And Patton was very famous for this, was getting things to the troops that they needed to get to the front and to win. And you see this right now, you see in Ukraine, what’s costing Ukraine to lose right now is because they can’t get the armaments. What caused Russia to lose the war against Germany? The freeze, they couldn’t figure out how to work around that. Right. But we figured out how to overcome these obstacles, but what that required was it was a high degree of specialization and a high degree of intense management. Now, who is going to then become your political leaders after a war in the successful war, it’s the people that were fighting the war for you. So, who was the biggest example of that? Eisenhower. Eisenhower came out of the war. What did he become? He became president of the United States. Alright, wow, something must be here. Ooh let’s take this into management psychology and now let’s figure out how we can push people and push people and push people and push people and produce and produce. How do you do that? You push people. Oh, let me learn the six ways to get somebody to say yes so that when they say yes on the seventh time, they’re buying a million-dollar product from me. You know what? To a large extent, it worked. It really did. [10:05]

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

John Lester: And it’s in the literature, it’s still in the literature, it’s still being taught. I was, and I don’t want to go crazy with this, but I can’t, I was sitting listening to a quote unquote, sales trainer yesterday in a webinar and he was talking about, well, if the person asks about what the price is in the very beginning, you got to figure out a way to push that conversation away. Wait a minute, if the person asks about price, wouldn’t it be more worth it to figure out why they’re asking about price right away? [10:36]

Nancy Calabrese: Right, yep. Nope.

John Lester: You’re going to hide from it? I mean, can you imagine walking to the supermarket tonight? Oh, I think I’m going to make a roast chicken tonight. Let me go, hey, Mr. Butcher, how are you, man? How much is chicken today? I’m well. You know, it’s an interesting question that you ask how much chicken is today. Why would you ask that question? What are you kidding me? You serious? But we still have these, and we still teach this kind of, there are very few people that I am aware of that are teaching selling from the perspective of respect for the buyer and teaching selling from the respect of yourself as an individual. So, we have these again models, they’re ingrained into society. We have all this text that’s out there. You have people like, what’s his name, Jordan Belford, you have Wolf of Wall Street, you’ve got all these kinds of people, who really have made money and they’ve done very well with this high-pressure approach. But they’re also highly marketed. So, people believe, oh, highly marketed, hmm, there must be something there. In certain cases, yes, there are certain cases where you can do that kind of stuff. But for the average person, it doesn’t work. [11:50]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So why do so many solopreneurs have difficulty with sales?

John Lester: Great question but it’s natural and I want all the solopreneurs listening to take a deep breath. The solopreneurs for the most part start a business because they have some kind of expertise, usually it’s a technical expertise, it’s some kind of subject matter that they know about whether it’s a physician or a psychologist or a plumber and they go hey I want to deliver that expertise. So, they understand their expertise and again this goes back to what I said in the very beginning, their expertise is a technical definable offering but the decision to buy their expertise is not technical, it’s not definable, it’s human, it’s behavioral. And so, they’re operating at this technical level, which is fine, but in order to sell, they have to change who they are to a certain extent and operate at the human level and operate at the, and I will say political, not in the sense that everybody thinks of political, but political from an interactions perspective, they’re not used to doing that. I mean, I don’t know how many schools in the country at any level, you know, offer such courses on how to come to agreement, how to read another person. I don’t know anybody who does, but those are the things that you need. We have lots of classes on accounting. [13:10]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Well, sales is all about psychology, really, right?

John Lester: It’s all about psych. It is all about psychology. And the other piece that I’m taking it to, Nancy, so this is where it’s important, so much of psychology and so much of what we teach in general is about doing it to the other person. So, psychology is the other person. And what I’m saying is what we need to be spending time on is what’s going on in my head before I start to worry about what I’m doing to the other person. So, I’m just taking it one step deeper. [13:44]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, I love your company name Attitude Selling. Why is mindset so important in sales?

John Lester: Because how you approach something, as I said before, we all have these preconceived notions, those are all our mindset. And what I’m saying is you’ve got to change that mindset and have a different mindset. My mindset every morning when I wake up is, who am I going to help today? It’s not what am I going to sell today? It’s whose life can I make better today? [14:17]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. I love that.

John Lester: The sales come, but the sales come. Because people want help, especially, oh my God, especially now. People are crazy, they want help. But you don’t have to say to them, oh, you know, I’ll help you fix my, you go, hey, look, I’m here to help you. And they go, hey, cool, what can I give you back? Give me back money, because that’s what we use, fine. [14:37]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. You know, I said before, mindset is so important in sales, but I think it’s important in life, period. Right.

John Lester: It’s the same. It’s really the same. All everything that I talk about and everything I teach is applicable to life. I’ve just decided to help my tribe and my tribe is people who need to sell. Doesn’t mean, you know, that it’s not going to work for you somewhere else. I give you an example, another example quickly. I spent 18 years as a certified motorcycle instructor. So, I took people who had never been on a motorcycle before and taught them how to ride successfully and how to navigate traffic. All right. [15:16]

Nancy Calabrese: And you had no experience?

John Lester: Oh no, I was heavily trained. No, I had experience, I had been riding and I went through an extensive training, and I would go through training every single year to upgrade my skillset. But what I found most interesting about it was not just that I enjoyed motorcycling more, but my car driving changed. [15:37]

Nancy Calabrese: How so?

John Lester: Because my mindset changed about driving. My mindset changed about where I was looking, how I was reacting, when I was reacting, how I was braking, how I was turning, how I was, all of those things. So, all of a sudden it translated. So, anything that I convey in the sales arena should convey to personal. Because at the end of the day, as my great friend Wayne Gere said, two people in a room, one walks out sold. [16:09]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Huh.

John Lester: Well, that other one could be your child. Could be your neighbor.

Nancy Calabrese: What do you mean by that anyway?

John Lester: Everything that we do as humans, whether we think about it or not, results in somebody a little more than the other person agreeing with the other person’s perspective. It just is. So, two people in a room, they’re going to have a conversation, hey, good seeing you, George, hey, good seeing you, Sam. One of them is going to walk away a little more convinced of something the other person said. It’s normal. It’s natural. So take advantage. Take advantage of it. [16:49]

Nancy Calabrese: Never thought of it that way. Yeah, really. So, I know that you have several programs. One program is your sales mastermind. I think you mentioned another program. Why don’t you talk a little bit about them?

John Lester: The one I really want to talk about for this audience is the Sales Mastermind, because this is really my concern for individuals. So, the solopreneur, the entrepreneur, the professional salesperson who’s not making it. I wanted to create an environment where somebody could come in of their own free will, not being told by their management, not being told by, you know, their HR department or anybody else like that, where somebody could come in that said, look, I need to get some stuff resolved. I’m not sure what the problem is, but I need to get this stuff taken care of because I don’t want to be scared anymore. I don’t want to wake up in the morning sweating, getting up. I don’t want to be scared to go talk to quote unquote Mr. Big the buyer. I want to understand what the buyer is thinking. I want them to come to this on their own. And that’s the mastermind. Now, what’s really interesting about us as human beings is we need a couple of things. We need somebody to keep us accountable. We need somebody to push us we need direction. So that’s what the purpose of the Mastermind is. It’s to help people start to realize these issues, start to come to terms with these issues. If they don’t come to terms with these issues on their own, they will never come to terms with them. [18:16]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Huh. How long is the Mastermind?

John Lester: I can tell mastermind is five weeks. We meet for, after the five weeks.

Nancy Calabrese: Okay. And then what happens after the five weeks?

John Lester: It’s up to the person. Do they want to just go off on their own? Are they so sick and tired of listening to me that they want to leave? That’s fine, I’m only teasing. Or do I keep them in just a group, a larger group of just, hey, you want to come in and talk about something this week or next week. So, you can stay in a group facility, larger group facility for as long as you like. But the mastermind is very focused. There are four or five things we focus on. We get through them in the five-week period. I’m going to tell people that are listening right now, I do push you. I do. Because you’re not going to make progress if you don’t get pushed. [19:05]

Nancy Calabrese: Okay. So, the moral of the story is unless you’re looking to work, unless you’re looking to work, don’t join the group.

John Lester: Right. Yeah. Don’t join the group.

Nancy Calabrese: I can’t believe we’re up with time, John. You know, I love sales. I I’m guessing as much as you do. How can my people find you?

John Lester: Yeah. So AttitudeSelling.com is my website. And go there, look around, look at the Mastermind, see if it makes sense to you. You can contact me with, there’s a calendar link on there, there’s my phone number on there, there’s my email on there. Reach out. I had somebody come into a session I was doing the other day, they said, I don’t know why I’m here, but it looks interesting. 45-minutes later, they’re going, I can’t believe this was the best session I’ve ever been in, you’ve really helped me. I like to do that for people. I love it when people smile and go, wow, you helped me. I like it when they give me money too, but that’s going to happen if I help them. [20:01]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. So, my takeaway from you is sales is all about helping, not about pushing.

John Lester: It is all about helping. No, it’s not. But there is a little pushing Nancy because none of us like change, but it’s pushing in a helpful way. Now, let me throw something out to your audience because I know you’ve got a great audience of motivated people. I’m going to do something I haven’t done before. I’m going to do an offer of a special Mastermind. So, if your audience wants to get four or more of their friends together and do a mat and have me do a mastermind with them for them as a group. I’ll cut out a special mastermind, it can be as few as five people, but nothing less than that, and I will give them a killer price just because I know I will have fun. [20:58]

Nancy Calabrese: Cool, cool. You hear that everyone? Look, I just really want to say a huge thank you, John, for sharing your expertise with me and the audience and people listening in take advantage of this man’s expertise and his generous offer. So, until we speak again, I want everyone to make it an awesome sales day. See you next time. [21:28]

 

 

Chet Lovegren: The Prescription for Successful Selling

About Chet Lovegren: Chet Lovegren is the Founder & Head Sales RX’er of The Sales Doctor, a company that helps clients prevent their revenue bleed from archaic training, coaching, and implementation practices. After working for 7+ years as an individual contributor, Chet started The Sales Doctor in 2020 as a way for salespeople and sales leaders to take a ‘prescriptive’ approach to diagnose and solve problems in their go-to-market strategy. Since then, he’s helped companies raise over $100M in VC Funds and seen over 125 professionals perform at their best, get promoted, and achieve their true earning potential. His foundations and teachings are a combination of his 11+ years in the go-to-market space, both as a seller and leader. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Chet.

In this episode, Nancy and Chet discuss the following:

  • Importance of prescriptive approach in sales
  • Comparison of sales strategies to medical diagnosis
  • Significance of onboarding for new sales reps and managers
  • Use of technology in improving hiring processes
  • Importance of measuring performance and engagement
  • Strategies for identifying and nurturing future leaders
  • Advice on managing and leading sales teams

Key Takeaways: 

  • 90% of what I do is an aggregate of all the information I’ve taken in, eaten the fish, and spit out the bones.
  • Try a lot of things and see what works best for you.
  • The forgetting curve: within 30 days, we forget 87% of what we learned.
  • Empathy does not mean a lack of accountability.

“I like to use the idea of prescriptive because if you’re a doctor and you are doing it right, it’s not a one-size-fits-all all. And the best doctors who have done the most critical work in saving lives have dug deep into the core problems, not solving for symptoms. But why are these symptoms happening? Because you think about if you have a fever, you’re gonna have similar symptoms as if you have a cold, their shared symptoms across certain problems or diagnoses, right? And my favorite saying is a doctor who provides a diagnosis without examination is guilty of malpractice. I think many LinkedIn gurus do this, but many sales teams do it for their opportunities and customers. And if we want to be transparent, honest, value-driven salespeople, let’s walk the walk and not just talk the talk. And so, you have to dig deep into what’s the problem that my customer thinks they have, what’s the problem I know they have because I’m the subject matter expert, what’s the gap in that way of thinking, and how can I get them to think, not understand my point of view critically? You know, we’re in politics season, and I’m sure everybody’s watching all these debates going on.” – CHET

“Yeah, I think one of the best ways to do this is with software. I’m not one to typically plug software, but there’s a tool called Yardstick. Founder Lucas Price has built this incredible tool that helps increase the collaboration between hiring managers, department heads, and maybe individual contributors who are also interviewing people for the role and helps them collaborate in real time so that they have a foundation once that new hire starts to be able to go back and measure, do we have who we thought we had? This way, you can essentially know who you have faster, know if they’re the person you hired, and if they’re not, work with your HR team to get them out of the seat and get somebody in who will be. Because that’s the unfortunate thing.” – CHET

“I’m okay accepting no when making 50 cold calls a day. You want to make 20 cause that’s what’s comfortable for you, and you can do that because you’re sending more video messages and doing much more personalized email outreach, and it works for you; that’s great. Cause I have another rep who can’t convert anything via email, but they’re fantastic on the phone. And so, I say, if it’s working for you, prioritize that. Do we want to try to upscale you on cold email writing? Sure, but if you’re booking 20 appointments monthly to make a hundred cold calls a day, I’m not opposed to that. You’re hitting your number, which might be what you’re good at. And so, I do want to make you better at cold email writing if there are gaps that I recognize, but there’s a whole bunch behind that with email deliverability that might’ve also happened with that gentleman. So, I think it’d be okay with no, but expect why. And remember that empathy does not mean a lack of accountability; you’re not a bad person if you want to instill some accountability in your process. Still, you must pull back the books, use a data-driven leadership model, and show people why accountability is in place. And don’t manage to the bottom 20% of people who don’t want to be at your org anyway. Stop making rules and things that they must follow. Make rules and processes and accountability for the 80% because all you do when you’re reactive, and you manage to the bottom 20% is the other 80% of people that want to be there feel like they’re getting squeezed out and they quit, and they go take $5,000 a year to work somewhere else.” – CHET

Connect with Chet Lovegren:

Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/

Connect with Nancy Calabrese: 

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.

Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Chet Lovegren, aka the sales doctor, the SDR leader and host of the SalesRx podcast gives sales reps insight into how to effectively time block, where they should focus energy, and tips for opening that conversation with prospective clients. With over 11 years of sales and sales leadership experience, Chet started the sales doctor in 2020 as a way of providing a prescriptive approach to revenue problems and struggling go-to-market strategies. Chet has helped build out sales processes and teams that led to companies successfully raising over a hundred million in venture capital funds. And he provides professionals with the right dose of practical and tactical info needed to stop the revenue bleed from archaic practices and methods. Welcome to the show chat. You know, I love speaking about sales.

Chet Lovegren: Yeah, thanks for having me and that was the best-read intro. Prescriptive always seems to trip people up, but you did a great job with that one. I know it’s a very nonnative thing to throw in when we’re talking about sales, but you nailed it. I want to I want to applaud you and throw like a rock star track on in the background or something. That was incredible. Yeah. [1:49]

Nancy Calabrese: Oh my God, please. It’s practice, practice. That’s it. But okay, I guess my question, let’s start with prescriptive. Why prescriptive and how does that help teams?

Chet Lovegren: Yeah, that’s a great question. I like to use the idea of prescriptive because if you’re a doctor and you are doing it right, it’s not a one size fits all. And the best doctors who have done the most critical work in saving lives have really dug deep into the core problems and not solving for symptoms. But why are these symptoms happening? Because you think about if you have a fever, you’re gonna have similar symptoms as if you have a cold their shared symptoms across certain problems or diagnosis, right? And my favorite saying is a doctor who provides a diagnosis without examination is guilty of malpractice. And I think a lot of LinkedIn gurus do this, but also a lot of sales teams do this to their opportunities and to their customers. And if we want to be transparent, honest, value-driven salespeople, let’s walk the walk and not just talk the talk. And so, you have to dig deep into what’s the problem that my customer thinks they have, what’s the problem I know they have because I’m the subject matter expert, what’s the gap in that way of thinking, and how can I get them to critically think, not understand my point of view? You know, we’re in politics season and I’m sure everybody’s watching all these debates going on. [3:24]

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

Chet Lovegren: And you can tell the difference between a good debater and a bad debater is that good debaters say, this is my policy, this is my stance, and this is why. But it’s like, okay, you’re not getting me to think critically about why I should be thinking that way as well. You’re just trying to get me to understand your point of view. And I think that’s what we do a lot as sellers as well, is we try to get people to understand our point of view, instead of asking them to think critically alongside us, thereby justifying our subject matter expertise. And so, it gets a lot deeper than just like in my business, oh, you’re struggling to generate pipeline? Must be cold outreach problems. No, it could be 10 million other things. So, let’s dig deep into the process together and find a solution. [4:01]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Before I forget, I downloaded one of your offerings, the top five most common sales objections. And I shared it with my team. In reading it, we all want to ask you, were you or are you Sandler trained?

Chet Lovegren: Not officially, but I think that a lot of the methodologies that I’ve kind of learned from, all kind of start with Sandler, right? Gap selling is a real big one. And that was something where, when you actually look at gap selling, it’s just kind of another version of Sandler. Most every methodology now is a version of Sandler or Hoffman, if we’re really being honest with ourselves. And I always tell, I tell my clients that too. I say, 90% of what I do is an aggregate of all the information I’ve taken in, eat the fish and spit out the bones. Really only 10% is my own ingenuity and creativity added on top of that, which I think as sellers we should be doing as well. Try Challenger, try Gap, try Sandler, try Hoffman. Go back to Ziegler if you want to and take some of those principles. Try a lot of things and see what works well for you. [[5:09]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Okay. Now, traditional sales training. You’ve heard horror stories about that. Why doesn’t that work?

Chet Lovegren: Well, there’s this interesting principle called the forgetting curve. And with the forgetting curve, especially when you think about whether you’re hiring an outside person to come in and train your team, or you’re doing training and enablement internally, we don’t typically continue inspecting what we expect or what we train around. And I think every seller listening to this would agree. How many times have we gone through a sales training? And a month later, we’re not even talking about the same topic, but we haven’t really improved much. And that’s reactive leadership. And so, it takes a lot of commitment and intentionality behind what we want to train people on and why we want to train them. And unfortunately, a lot of the enablement resources out there just don’t make sense. Like, why would I enroll my people in a 12-week program where they meet once a week for 12 weeks? Because thanks to the forgetting curve, within 30 days, we forget 87% of what we learned. So, in week five and six, we’re trying to teach SDRs advanced tactics that build off a foundation we learned in week one that we don’t even remember. And it goes the same for new AEs or AEs that need a refresher, AEs moving into the enterprise space or frontline managers. It happens all the time. The other alternative is video courses. Well, unfortunately, video courses are very low engaging. People do them on their own time. And typically, if there’s like some sort of testing module at the end, you can just guess the answers until you get through. And so, reps aren’t really inclined to put a lot of effort and intentionality in there. And somebody could say, well, top reps will. Well, maybe, but I know a lot of top reps, when I’ve been through those video trainings myself, where they’re like, yeah, we must do our 10 minute a day video module training, just click to the end, you probably already know the stuff. And it was in orgs where people would just tell you what the answer was. Hey everybody, I already went through mine this morning, here’s the three answers, you know? And it’s just, you know, so you either have long programs that are highly engaging, but people forget the information after, you know, and it’s a 90-day program, or you have these low engaging, you know, volume plays where people just don’t really get a lot out of it. So, what I try to do is simulate the environment in which people learn the most and retain the most, which is onboarding. And we typically structure our virtual boot camps to be an hour a day for a full week, five days straight.

Nancy Calabrese: Oh really?

Chet Lovegren: And then yes, and then we create a 30-day follow-up call because we get in this repetition where every day you’re learning something for an hour. And if you break out any of the modules, whether it’s cold outreach, which our prospecting bootcamp can go for SDRs and AEs, especially if AEs are full cycle, our sales bootcamp, which we call AE Academy, AEs can go through discovery, deal management, negotiation, and follow-up. I mean, those are four different modules, and you have five days of learning. And you see people showing up every day. By the fifth day we get there, we all feel like friends and we’re laughing and we’re having fun. And we’ve retained a lot of the information, and they can put it into practice while they’re going through it. Instead of waiting for them to go through you know, a community led program by a, you know, LinkedIn guru that basically takes them three months to get through and you’re not seeing results as fast as you want to. And they forget most of the information. We try to compact the information and make it more valuable and retainable. And then we like to do the follow-up call after 30 days. Okay, you put it into practice. What are the nuances that you’re facing? What can we talk through as it pertains to that company and that motion specifically. [8:53]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Why is onboarding so important for new sales reps and managers?

Chet Lovegren: Well, I think the biggest thing is it’s your way of setting expectations for what’s to be required. Now that doesn’t mean that most companies do it well enough, but this is your opportunity to say, hey, the thing we’re paying you to do, this is what it is and this is what it’s required to be successful. This is the level of knowledge you must have, retain, and execute upon and also build upon to be successful. You go through buyer persona training, like those are always adjusting. So, if you have, let’s say four buyer personas, and you’re selling logistics software, you have warehouse manager, operations manager, building manager, and let’s call it a CFO maybe, or financial leader that your buyer personas. That’s also you are saying, I expect you to be up to date with those buyer personas challenges because they change over time, which means regularly meeting with people in CS, listening to QBRs, hearing what the future state looks like for our customers when we win them. And I think that’s why onboarding is so important because it’s as much an enablement time period as it is an expectation setting time period. So, I encourage any leaders in a performance-based role, sales or CS typically, make that a part of it. When you’re building your onboarding playbook and your enablement materials, make sure that it’s as much an expectation setting exercise as it is a knowledge transfer. [10:28]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, finding the right salespeople, it’s like a needle in a haystack. You know, it’s hard to know 100% when you do hire somebody if you’ve really made the right hire. So, is there a way, you know, to, I guess, snuff out the wrong hires earlier?

Chet Lovegren: Yeah, I think one of the best ways to do this is with software. I’m not one to typically plug softwares, but there’s a tool called Yardstick. Founder Lucas Price has built this incredible tool that helps increase the collaboration between hiring managers, department heads, maybe individual contributors who are also interviewing people for the role and helps them collaborate in real time so that they have a foundation once that new hire starts to be able to go back and measure, do we have who we thought we had? And this way you can essentially know who you have faster, know if they’re actually the person that you hired, and if they’re not, work in hand with your HR team to get them out of the seat and get somebody in who will be. Because that’s the unfortunate thing. [11:37]

Nancy Calabrese: How does it do that though? I don’t understand.

Chet Lovegren: Yeah, so it’s got this really cool intuitive way of basically taking everything you’re probably already doing with like an HR tool when you’re hiring people, scoring, writing notes, things like that. But making it go beyond that process where now every 30 days, those same people are coming back to it and re going through the ratings for the person as a colleague or as a direct support. And when those scores start to slip, there’s coaching that’s provided on, hey, well, is it an observational thing? Is this like a motivation thing that needs fixed or is this a strategic thing? Or did we fail somewhere along the way in onboarding? And it gives you a much better way to measure that performance throughout their first 90 days than just getting their first 90 days and the frontline manager’s like, well, I don’t really think this person’s working based on some data points, but now we must talk to HR. Now we put them through a program the next month then maybe we put them on a PIP, then we get them out at around the six-month mark. If you’re measured quarterly, that’s even longer, right? So, the tool kind of helps people ensure that, they kind of have who they thought they had. And if they have that person, great, we can continue to measure that performance above and beyond that and help them make the case for promotion later. But if we don’t, we can kind of move them out of the role quicker than you would in a standard PIP process where SDRs if you add SDR higher, it takes six to eight months to get them out of the role, typically. An AE it’s a little longer than that. And so, this tool helps you do that kind of within the 90-day mark and it’s by providing you, I mean, you could probably, you know, I’m sure some people can hack it together inside their HR software, just setting up different processes or even managing it on the spreadsheet. [[13:26]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Yeah.

Chet Lovegren: But the benefit above and beyond that too is everybody thinks they have the right hiring questions, but there’s also hiring questions that are provided, that are relevant to your business and your actual motion. And so, there’s a lot to it. I’m probably not doing it justice because we’re not on a demo for them, but I think finding ways to leverage technology and get people collaboratively together and actually get them to have a commitment to it. Like, look, VPs, heads of sales, CROs, I realize you’re busy, but if you want to have a hand in the hiring process, then you got to have a hand in the hiring process. And that requires you to take notes and score the conversation. I’ve worked at companies where my higher ups wanted to have a hand in the hiring conversation and then I go, hey, where’s Nancy’s scorecard? Oh, well, Nancy was great. Okay, well that’s fantastic, but how are we going to measure that across the four people that are part of this hiring process if you’re not going to do the five minutes of note taking and leg work that it takes for us to effectively measure this? And so, you have to make sure that you get that part right and that everybody’s as equally brought in. [14:27]

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

Chet Lovegren: And if not, then hey, just step aside if you don’t have time for that and let us handle it and trust us to handle.

Nancy Calabrese: Oh, so do you think performance metrics should be the only thing considered when thinking about who to promote?

Chet Lovegren: Not at all. And I think performance is important in contrast to the rest of the people on their team. But the devil’s also always in the details. I’ve met plenty of reps that go to club that you dig deep into their process and it’s kind of eye-opening. And you’re like, oh, well, yeah, if everybody was doing that, everybody would probably hit club, you know? There might be some preferential treatment. There might be some ways that they’ve figured out how to work the CRM the right way that other people aren’t. I’ve even caught top reps deleting data out of the CRM, putting it on a spreadsheet and manually working it until it became an opportunity and then creating the opportunity in the CRM so that there were no touch rules behind it that anybody could track. So, I’ve seen it all. And that doesn’t mean that everybody who hits 120% of quota is gaming the system. But there’s a very good opportunity that if, I think of it like Wells Fargo. There’s a reason Wells Fargo was doing great in the banking system and then they got caught. And you see this time and time again when companies, Theranos is another great example, right? When something is too good to be true, you kind of dig into those details a little bit and you see a little bit more. So I think it’s interesting that we have a million ways to measure someone’s performance, but we don’t have many ways to measure someone’s participation and engagement. [16:02]

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

Chet Lovegren: And so that’s something that while anecdotal, I think leaders need to put a bigger focus on. And it’s not enough to just say that’s what we should do. Well, how do we do it, Chet? Well, give people the opportunity to lead certain meetings in every form and fashion. If a sales leader is leading and doing the majority of the talking in the weekly sales meeting, you’re doing it wrong. Find ways to integrate your people and people that are showing signs of being a potential future AE, if they’re an SDR or a senior or commercial or enterprise AE or even your next frontline manager, find ways to integrate them into the conversation sooner rather than later, and have them kind of show and prove because the whole other side of professional development and career advancement is the skillset of being able to also show others how to do it. So, if I’m going to move an SDR into an AE, fantastic. I also want to make sure that person knows how to present, knows how to present to a group, knows how to talk about ROI because when I have another SDR that I want to promote into AE, guess who I’m going to buddy them up with? The person who already did that. And I’m giving my SDR that’s moving into AE a little bit of practice for how they would conduct a demonstration or presentation with a prospective customer, right? So, I think we have a million ways to measure someone’s performance, but no way to measure someone’s participation and engagement. I always look at it like Simon Sinek’s trust-first performance graph if you’ve ever seen that conversation. Top right corner is high performer, high trust. And we tend to value that person. But if you go into any organization and ask who’s the jerk, they’ll typically point that person out immediately. The high performer, sorry, high performer, low trust. High performer, high trust is a unicorn. But what organizations like the SEALs treasure is the medium performer of high trust. They’ll take that person over the high performer or low trust any day. Because as they say in the SEALs, I might trust you with my life, but do I trust you with my wife? So that was always a, I always look at it that way. Like I’m okay taking someone who hits 80 to 90% of quota and moving them into another role or a promotion. If I see other things from a participation and in an engagement, um, factor that I think makes it relevant. And I’ve seen plenty of good SDRs become terrible AEs and I’ve seen plenty of bad SDRs become great AEs. So it’s, they are different skill sets. [18:20]

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

Chet Lovegren: They are different skill sets. Some of it crosses over and bleeds into the other, but it doesn’t, it’s not, it shouldn’t always be an indicator of if this person’s gonna have success at the next level. There are process and anecdotal things that you need to witness first, above and beyond just hitting quota.

Nancy Calabrese: Last question, I mean, why do so many sales teams have a hard time building a solid culture around accountability and performance? What’s the issue?

Chet Lovegren: Because we’re in this phase right now in let’s call it corporate America, where we think that empathy means a lack of accountability. And so, we’re told that by trying to keep people accountable, we’re not being empathetic. And that couldn’t be farther from the truth. If anything, you know, it’s like Uncle Ben says to Peter Parker, with great power comes great responsibility. I think of it the same way. With much empathy, you know, much accountability is also required to whom much is given, much is required, right? And I think the first thing I would recommend for leaders is in that motion, we should always be okay hearing no, but we should always expect why, and a solid why. And I think a lot of leaders just go, no, this is the process, this is how it is. I had a salesperson at Pavilion, and she was like, look, I’m just not very comfortable cold calling. And she would do well beyond her number from cold email and video messages on LinkedIn. And I said, look, that’s great. Keep doing what works for you. In fact, I could probably learn something from you that would help the team do better on cold emailing and video outreach. That said, when we do start seeing a dip in that performance, we’re going to have to make up those activity numbers with some cold calls. We’re going to have to do it a little bit more my way, you know? But if it’s working for you this way, that’s fine. [20:15]

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

Chet Lovegren: I’m okay accepting no when it comes to making 50 cold calls a day, you want to make 20, cause that’s what’s comfortable for you and you can do that because you’re sending more video messages and doing much more personalized email outreach and it works for you, that’s great. Cause I have another rep who can’t convert anything via email, but they’re fantastic on the phone. And so, I say, hey, if it’s working for you, prioritize that. Do we want to try to upscale you on cold email writing? Sure, but if you’re booking 20 appointments a month for making a hundred cold calls a day, I’m not opposed to that. You’re hitting your number and that might be the thing that you’re good at. And so, I do want to make you better at cold email writing if there are gaps that I recognize, but there’s a whole bunch behind that with email deliverability that might’ve happened with that gentleman as well. So, I think it’d be okay with no, but expect why. And remember that empathy does not mean a lack of accountability and you’re not the bad person if you want to instill some accountability in your process, but you need to pull back the books, use a data-driven leadership model and show people why the accountability is in place. And don’t manage to the bottom 20% of people that don’t want to be at your org anyway. Stop making rules and things that they must follow. Make rules and processes and accountability for the 80% because all you do when you’re reactive and you manage to the bottom 20% is the other 80% of people that actually want to be there feel like they’re getting squeezed out and they quit, and they go take $5,000 a year to work somewhere else. [21:39]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow, I can’t believe our time is up. I could go on forever with you, Chet. How can my people find you?

Chet Lovegren: Yeah, LinkedIn is a great place. On my LinkedIn I have access to a bunch of my resources. You can check out my Linktree. There’s a newsletter, there’s free downloads. Sounds like you and your team already downloaded one of those resources. So pretty much, pretty much everything’s there. Yeah. [22:03]

Nancy Calabrese: Oh yeah. You’ve got a ton of material. I say go to your website.

Chet Lovegren: Yeah, that too. You can get to my website from my linktree. If you just want to go there directly, it’s https://www.thesalesdocrx.com/.

Nancy Calabrese: Cool. Everyone, he’s great. Chet, thanks so much for being on the show and sharing your expertise. I know you said you were a little jet lagged before we started, but it didn’t sound like that to me. [22:31]

Chet Lovegren: Well, that’s what three cups of coffee will do to you. But thanks Nancy. It was a great conversation.

Nancy Calabrese: Oh, okay. Oh, it was great. And everyone make it a great sales day. We’ll see you next time. [22:41]

Manuj Aggarwal: Embrace AI for the Future

About Manuj Aggarwal: Manuj Aggarwal is the Chief Technology Officer of TetraNoodle Technologies, a company he founded in 2000 that provides startups with technology consulting and ongoing education. Manuj started as a factory worker in India, earning $2/day, and ended up in the boardrooms of Fortune 500 companies in Canada and the USA. Located in Vancouver, Canada, TetraNoodle has served clients ranging from startups to large corporations. They are focused on empowering businesses with Artificial Intelligence (AI) capabilities. They are an end-to-end service provider for all AI and technology solutions. They do whatever it takes to enable AI capabilities for your organization. Whether building data engineering pipelines, enabling cloud migration, developing data products to validate AI models, or performing QA, they provide the full spectrum of services necessary to succeed in your AI plans. They work with three kinds of customers: Early-Stage Startups that want to embed AI into their products, Small and Medium Businesses that cannot have their own AI teams, and Large Enterprises that need AI expertise to guide their teams. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Manuj.

In this episode, Nancy and Manuj discuss the following:

  • Manuj’s background in technology and AI
  • The concept of data being the new oil and AI being the new engine
  • How AI can be both beneficial and potentially harmful, depending on its use
  • The overlap between technology and human psychology
  • The need for businesses to embrace technology, particularly AI, to stay competitive

Key Takeaways: 

  • Data can now be converted into dollars.
  • You can create powerful solutions once you understand how to utilize data and use AI to crunch big numbers.
  • AI is a tool to help you be creative faster.
  • We are entering a vast new era of a new way of doing work. Every company is going to be a technology company moving forward.

“The world always values useful resources. So, we consume oil. That’s a very valuable resource. We consume food. All kinds of materials that we consume are resources. And people who own that resource can charge money for it. Now, if you look at platforms like Facebook or Twitter, they are, or even Google, giving away everything for free. You can use most of the Google products for free, Facebook for free, and Twitter for free. So, how are these companies making so much money? Yeah, by advertising based on the data that they collect on you.” – MANUJ

“Yeah, every business grows based on a few factors. One is whether they have a great team managing the business. Another one is whether they have good brand credibility in the market. Another one is whether customers are coming in regularly into their storefront or what have you. All of these take a massive amount of skill and energy. You need to find trained people, experienced people. But imagine if you could use AI to supplement their capabilities. So, let’s say if you have a team of five people and use AI to double their productivity in the next 30 days, right? That means your business will grow double within the next 30 days.” – MANUJ

“See, the thing is that AI is analyzing data and recognizing patterns in that data. So, our world is complex. So, I’ll give you an example. So, let’s say a child, a 10-year-old child, touches a hot stove. They will know that they shouldn’t touch it next time because it will hurt. So, our mind has learned one data point. And it has become intelligent now that this is the wrong action to take. But let’s say that child is in the middle of Antarctica, and they are wearing heat-resistant gloves, and it’s really chilly out there. And now they touch the stove, it will feel warm and pleasant, not hot. So now their mind is learning that, OK, even there are variations of this situation. So, if the parameters are correct, it may be OK to touch the hot stove. Right? Yeah, so our mind collects this data and then understands these patterns. But let’s say extrapolate that to large problems like climate change or finding a cure for cancer or anything like that. There are millions and millions of parameters involved in that.” – MANUJ

Connect with Manuj Aggarwal:

Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/

Connect with Nancy Calabrese: 

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.

Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Manuj Aggarwal, the founder and chief innovation officer at Tetra Noodle Technologies, an elite AI consulting company. With a remarkable track record of driving transformative change, Manuj has touched at least 10 million lives and generated over 500 million in value through his expertise in technology and AI. He has shared his insights at the United Nations alongside distinguished figures like the Secretary General and Nobel Peace Prize winners, President Obama and Bill Gates, have recognized his work. And with four AI patents to his name, Manuj is the perfect mentor to guide you through the transformative potential of AI and its benefits for businesses. Welcome to the show, Manuj. I’m so happy to have you.

Manuj Aggarwal: Thank you so much. Thanks. Excited to be here. [1:28]

Nancy Calabrese: My goodness, I guess my first question is, how did you get involved with AI?

Manuj Aggarwal: Well, I’ve been in technology for about 30 years, building software for startups to large corporations. And I have always tried to stay at the cutting edge of technology, learning new technologies as they come out. And so, AI, I mean, a lot of people don’t know this, but AI has been around for at least two to three decades now.

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

Manuj Aggarwal: And yeah, yeah. So when I started noticing the power that AI can generate and create in the world, I started getting involved in it around 2007 or so. [2:20]

Nancy Calabrese: Okay. And so, I know that you state it’s the invisible currency. Data is the new oil and AI is the new engine. Explain that to us.

Manuj Aggarwal: That’s right. Yeah, see, the world always values resources which are useful, right? So, we consume oil. That’s a very valuable resource. We consume food. All kinds of material that we consume, that’s a resource. And people who own that resource can charge money for it. Now, if you look at platforms like Facebook or Twitter, they are or even Google, right? These platforms are giving away everything for free. Like you can use most of the Google products for free, Facebook for free, Twitter for free. So how are these companies making so much money? Yeah, but advertising based on the data that they collect on you. [3:26]

Nancy Calabrese: Alright. Great. Well, advertising. I’m going to go ahead and close the video.

Manuj Aggarwal: Okay, so data can be now converted into dollars.

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. I mean, it’s just scary. You know, it’s funny you say that because I was on a news website and up popped up a store that I shopped from. And I’m like, this is weird. I was just thinking about going there. So how did they know to pop it up?

Manuj Aggarwal: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, these are the kind of things, as they collect data, they can almost predict behavior, or they can understand people at a very deep level. And that applies in both good scenarios, bad scenarios, because the good part is it leads to new discoveries, new drugs for diseases, new ways of solving big problems, all of that. The idea is the more you understand data, the more data you collect, it is a powerful, powerful resource now in the digital age to convert that data into something tangible, something valuable in the world. [4:34]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Well, what’s the bad side of it, though?

Manuj Aggarwal: Well, I mean, see, any technology can be used for good and bad, right? So, the point is once you understand how to utilize data and use AI to crunch big numbers, like, you know, understanding data is itself a complex problem and AI can help with all of that. And when you combine like human creativity with the intelligence of the machines, you can create some powerful solutions. But the idea is to recognize that this is the new age we are entering of the humans supplemented by machines and data is a very, very important resource. [5:19]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, we mentioned earlier that you feel there’s potential of AI and its benefits for businesses. Can you explain that?

Manuj Aggarwal: Yeah, every business grows based on a few factors. One is whether they have a great team managing the business. Another one is whether they have a good brand credibility in the market. Another one is whether they have customers coming in regularly into their storefront or what have you. All of these take massive amount of skill, energy. You need to find trained people, experienced people. But imagine if you could use AI to supplement their capabilities. So, let’s say, if you have a team of five people and use AI to double their productivity in the next 30 days, right? That means your business will grow double within the next 30 days. [6:31]

Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Wow. And so how do you use AI to do prospecting? How does it work?

Manuj Aggarwal: Yeah, see, what is prospecting? Prospecting is talking to as many people as possible and saying: “Hey, it seems like our interests are aligned. It seems like we have the solution to your problems. How will you like us to have a chat?” Isn’t that what prospecting being? Now, to do that, a human being needs to be good at communication. And it doesn’t come easy because there’s a lot of factors like fear of rejection, because if you talk to like 100 people, many people may not even respond nicely to you. [7:21]

Nancy Calabrese: Well, it’s a no business, that’s for sure.

Manuj Aggarwal: Yeah, yeah. And now if you can supplement that with AI, then you can expand the capacity of the same human being by giving them an ability to, you know, take actions at a faster pace. Maybe, let’s say we are sending a personalized invite to somebody and saying: “Hey, I’d like to talk to you about this we start to use cookie cutter solutions”. But if we can use AI to personalize it very quickly, then I can be very productive, and my results can be much more effective. [8:07]

Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Yeah. So, what I’m hearing is it just helps you be more efficient, correct?

Manuj Aggarwal: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, just like any other technology, right? Like, take for example, a car, a car will help you go faster. You know, a crane will help you lift heavier weights. It’s just like that. Yeah, is a tool to help you, you know, be create faster basically.

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Is there a story that the audience would find interesting?

Manuj Aggarwal: Story about AI?

Nancy Calabrese: You, AI, anything.

Manuj Aggarwal: Lots of stories. It depends on what kind of story will you like. We can certainly share. We can start.

Nancy Calabrese: Well, how about your story from the early days, how you got involved?

Manuj Aggarwal: Sure. Yeah. So, my story starts in India. I grew up in a small town, and I was trying to figure out what to do with my life. And my career started working in a factory, and I learned quite a bit there. But it was a very, very difficult life, six days a week, 12 hours a day. And what I did was I realized I got some inspiration from some business magazines. And I realized earlier on that for me to improve my life, I will need to acquire a valuable skill. And, and at that time, you know, computers and software were just sort of coming up in India, but I got involved in it and I loved programming. I loved software. And then one thing led to another, you know, I started working with a lot of startups, a fortune 500 companies started working on some really impactful projects. And through all this, I had various personal experiences where I felt quite depressed with life and almost suicidal at one point. So, then it was sort of a wake-up call. I was like, okay, there is something wrong that I need to really address. And so, after a while, I was trying to figure out what to do. I talked to a lot of therapists and psychiatrists and all that. But I ultimately found some relief in meditation. And I slowly started to learn how our mind sort of creates a reality around us and all of that. And as all these things were happening, I sort of recovered from that phase through meditation. And, through my involvement in AI and understanding the human mind, I was able to bridge the connection between how our human psychology works, our neuroscience works, and how AI interacts with it. It’s a fascinating dance we play with AI and human mind. And so, the idea is to use this bridge to solve some real big business problems that typical businesses face. [11:13]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, you said earlier that AI has been around for about two to three decades. How did it first materialize?

Manuj Aggarwal: See, the thing is that AI basically is analyzing data and recognizing patterns in that data. So, our world is a complex world. So, I’ll give you an example. So, let’s say a child, a 10-year-old child touches a hot stove. They will know that next time they shouldn’t touch it because it’s going to hurt. So, our mind has learned one data point. And it has become intelligent now that this is the wrong action to take. But let’s say that child is in the middle of Antarctica, and they are wearing heat-resistant gloves, and it’s really, chilly out there. And now they touch the stove, it will feel warm and pleasant, not hot. So now their mind is learning that, OK, even there are variations of this situation. So, if the parameters are correct, it may be a OK decision to touch the hot stove. Right? Yeah, so our mind is collecting this data and then understanding these patterns. But let’s say extrapolate that to large problems like climate change or finding cure for cancer or anything like that. There are millions and millions of parameters involved in that. [12:42]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Fascinating stuff.

Manuj Aggarwal: So now the human mind is not able to find these patterns in that big of a complex world, but machines can. And so, when you ask me, you know, how did it come about? Humans have been, you know, since the 1960s, as we started getting into the computer age, we started collecting data, we started analyzing patterns. And so, AI has gone through various naming, you know, names in the industry. But now we are at a point where it can simulate human intelligence. [13:21]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Well, what names were they?

Manuj Aggarwal: I mean, data analytics, you know, yeah, so.

Nancy Calabrese: Got it, understood. So, tell me a fun fact about you.

Manuj Aggarwal: Yeah. Fun fact about me, I love to travel. I’ve been to, I can’t remember, like, maybe 20-25 countries and yeah, I love to travel and want to continue to explore the planet.

Nancy Calabrese: Lucky you, I love to travel as well. I don’t do it enough, but somebody’s got to do it, so it might as well be you, right?

Manuj Aggarwal: No, everybody should be able to do it. I mean, that’s something that I also sort of preach and teach, that whatever you want in life gives you what whatever you want out of it. So, if you want travel, you get travel. [14:15]

Nancy Calabrese: Yep, I agree. I agree. Is there something you would like me to spotlight, anything you want to talk about?

Manuj Aggarwal: Well, we are in the middle of an AI revolution. Right now, it’s just the beginning. AI is going to add about $10 trillion to the world economy by 2030. So, this is a great opportunity for small business owners to really get ahead. A lot of people I talk to, they say: “Oh, I missed the internet boom, or I missed the smartphone boom”. And now, they have a huge opportunity in front of them to ride this AI wave. And if they want to ride it, then yeah, get in touch with me. [15:04]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Now, you know, I think probably everybody’s heard of chat GPT, but are there other, you know, AI tools that you would recommend?

Manuj Aggarwal: I will recommend go with the big ones like chat GPT, BARD, for visuals, mid-journey. Now chat GPT-4 can also do images. But for specific things, try to, there’s going to be like a flood of AI tools in the market now. So, try to look for your specific problems, what problems you’re trying to solve. Second thing is gone with tools from reputed companies, because what will happen is there’s going to be a huge number of tools available in the marketplace. And they may be run by one guy in the basement. And if you start relying on that tool for your business, and if that tool doesn’t survive the next six months, your efforts will be wasted. So, focus on reliable companies or people who have the credibility guys, because it’s very, very early on right now. [16:15]

Nancy Calabrese: Sure, that’s good advice. So, tell me something true that almost nobody agrees with you on.

Manuj Aggarwal: Well, I think I find a lot of resistance a little bit on these concepts about how technology and our human psychology overlaps. And it’s scary to a lot of people as well, but it is the reality. And it’s interesting debates I get into when I discuss this topic with people.

Nancy Calabrese: Oh, interesting. So how does it overlap though? Help me understand that.

Manuj Aggarwal: See, I mean, see AI is consuming the data that humans are producing and it is getting smarter based on what we are doing in the world, right? And then our humans’ actions are generally influenced by the information we consume. And the information we consume today is heavily produced and controlled by AI itself. [17:21]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow, it’s amazing stuff. You know, I can’t believe we’re almost up with time. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?

Manuj Aggarwal: Well, the takeaway is we are entering a huge new era of a new way of doing work. We have already experienced a few things in the past two, three years. So, you will continue to see radical changes happening in society. So, my recommendation is to stay vigilant and start investing in technology. Every company is going to be a technology company moving forward. So that is my advice. [17:58]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So don’t be afraid of it. Learn it. Welcome it into your business and into your world. Is that right? Cool. How can my people find you?

Manuj Aggarwal: Yeah, absolutely. You can go to my website manujagarwal.com or find me on LinkedIn or just google my name. I’m easy to get hold of.

Nancy Calabrese: And well, you must spell your first name for the audience.

Manuj Aggarwal: Yeah, yeah, M-A-N-U-J it’s Manuj, uh, and the last name is A-G-G-A-R-W-A-L

Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. Thank you so much for spending time with me and sharing your story. I totally find this fascinating and based on your recommendations, I’m really going to welcome AI. I guess for me it’s just a little overwhelming. Do you find that people react that way in the beginning?

Manuj Aggarwal: Yeah, absolutely. You know, every radical technology that comes by is overwhelming for us. Like, I remember the first time I logged onto the internet through that noise making modem. I didn’t know like what was happening. It was so overwhelming to me. Because even when I remember the websites were so simple, like ugly websites. But still it was overwhelming to figure out, okay, what is happening? Where do I go to find information? But slowly it became the way of life and that’s how technology is. But the idea is to start embracing it. [19:35]

Nancy Calabrese: Yep, embrace it. Don’t walk away from it. Okay, folks reach out to this gentleman. He is world renowned. He’s the expert in AI. And as he’s recommending, embrace it. Don’t be afraid of it because this is going to be the future of the world. So again, Manuj, thanks for being on and for everyone out there. Make it a great AI day. We’ll see you next time. [20:03]

Chris Weiher: Leveraging Video for Business Growth

About Chris Weiher: Chris Weiher owns CLEAVER Creative, which produces high-quality videos to get clients’ ideas out into the world. They believe that now there is more need than ever to own and understand the value of effective video marketing, and they seek to not only tell the client’s story but make sure your audience hears, sees, and feels it. Chris started his career directing and producing short films before founding CLEAVER Creative in 2013. He grew the company by creating animation videos for companies including Accenture, Salesforce, and SAP. In 2019, before the pandemic struck, Chris discovered significant organic traction by creating videos on LinkedIn. Since then, he’s been helping businesses develop their video strategies through B2B videos on LinkedIn to grow their brands authentically. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Chris.

In this episode, Nancy and Chris discuss the following:

  • The importance of video in the modern sales world
  • Starting your way in video marketing
  • First video creation suggestions
  • The most beneficial places to post videos
  • Chris’es recommendations of mixing personal and professional topics to engage viewers
  • Why should your dress code match the style of ideal clients

Key Takeaways: 

  • The hardest part for most people is to try and get started.
  • LinkedIn is still the best place to post business-related content and videos.
  • I think where people go wrong with video is they want it to be perfect because we want to be seen as perfect.
  • You must continue to be creative and think of other things, but that can be as easy as just going into your living room and filming a video there: it’s not rocket science.

“So, a really easy way to get started is to write out 10 FAQs, frequently asked questions, that you receive from your prospective clients. And then 10 questions you don’t get asked, but you wish somebody would, you wish someone would say. Well: “Why do I need to be using your service?” That’s often a question that people don’t come to me with because, by the time we’re talking, they know they want to use video, but they don’t ask why. And those frequently unasked questions are a good place to start because it gives you a chance to speak your mind about things that people aren’t asking you but are very important, and you want to tell them.” – CHRIS

“I recommend one video a week. There are a lot of folks out there who are in the social media game that are saying you need to have something out every single day. I disagree with that. For most people, it will burn out your audience, and they will ignore you. If you are a real B2B company, one video a week is plenty for people to see your face, see you. It’s just like going to a networking event. You don’t go every day; you go once a month or weekly. And then you want to have some other supplemental material you’re also putting out. That could be an article, that could be newsletter, or it could be other kinds of posts to supplement that video. But for some of my clients, they were doing one, one of my newest clients, he’s doing a video a week, and he’s already getting referrals from that.” – CHRIS

Technology is moving very quickly. That said, the human component will be the hardest thing to replace. And if you can leverage video as a part of your communication strategy, I think that element is never really going to be fully replaced, but it will be supplemented, I think, by AI.” – CHRIS

Connect with Chris Weiher:

Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/

Connect with Nancy Calabrese: 

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.

Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Chris Weiher, the founder of Cleaver Creative and a video producer with over 20 years of experience in the industry. Chris’s company has created B2B animations, sales presentations, and commercials seen by millions and now works with business owners to help them create their own videos and he only cares about the results. Chris believes that B2B sales require human connection. Therefore, it requires a strategic funnel that builds trust and moves people to make a decision. So they offer a solution. They help you make authentic videos that connect with your network and get your content seen. It is a pleasure to have you on the show, Chris. Welcome!

Chris Weiher: Thank you, Nancy. I’m excited to talk to you. This is a lot of fun. [1:20]

Nancy Calabrese: You know, this is a hot topic for me. You know, I’ve been procrastinating about doing video work. And why is video so important these days?

Chris Weiher: I would say that it is important because it allows you to, for most small and medium sized business owners, you as the business owner or your staff are the biggest resource and it allows you to scale your biggest resource, which a lot of people don’t think of it that way. [1:51]

Nancy Calabrese: Okay, but how do you get started in video?

Chris Weiher: I would say that is the hardest part for most people is to just try and get started. And there’s no other way to do it than to just do it and to allow yourself to fall on your face a little bit. I often tell people just because you record a video doesn’t mean you have to post it. But you do need to practice, and you do need to try and evaluate what you record and say why or why not, what about it is good, what can I do to improve on it? So usually when we start working with a new client, I say let’s work together for three months, let’s put out a video once a week, and let’s look at the results, let’s look at the reactions that you get and change your strategy based upon how people are reacting to it. [2:48]

Nancy Calabrese: Interesting. And so how do you make your first video? What are your suggestions?

Chris Weiher: So, a really easy way to get started is to write out 10 FAQs, frequently asked questions that you receive from your prospective clients. And then 10 questions that you don’t get asked, but you really wish somebody would, you really wish someone would say, well, why do I need to be using your service? That’s often a question that people don’t come to me with because by the time we’re talking, they know they want to use video.

Nancy Calabrese: Okay.

Chris Weiher: but they don’t ask why. And those frequently unasked questions are a good place to start because it gives you a chance to speak your mind about things that people aren’t asking you but are very important and you really want to tell them. [3:43]

Nancy Calabrese: Wow. And so, is there a certain place you recommend posting videos to get a big bang for your effort?

Chris Weiher: Absolutely, LinkedIn is still the best place to post business related content and videos. There’re people doing them know that weren’t doing them two three years ago but there’s still a very big opportunity to talk about real business issues. So, if you are a legitimate person with a legitimate businesspeople are hungry for that content. There’s a lot of people leveraging the social aspects, leveraging the, it’s my kid’s birthday party, or I just celebrated my anniversary, or I got a new job, the kind of fluff type stuff. But if you have real things to say, people are hungry for it on LinkedIn. [4:44]

Nancy Calabrese: Interesting. Yeah, you know, people have complained online that LinkedIn seems to be coming like Facebook. Do you agree with that?

Chris Weiher: It is in the sense that the algorithm wants to promote things that get eyeballs. And things that get eyeballs are never going to change. It’s the easiest step to engage with. And there is really nothing wrong with talking about your anniversary or your kid’s birthday party on LinkedIn, if the next week you talk about a client success story or a case study or a win or a failure of something that didn’t work out with your business, maybe last year or two years ago. If you intermingle those two, then the Facebook type content serves your other content because it gets people to know you and to like you. And when you do talk about maybe something that’s a little bit drier, they’re more apt to pay attention and more apt to then share it or tell somebody else in their network about you. [5:48]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. What’s your opinion on teleprompters when you’re recording the video?

Chris Weiher: So, I have been, like you said, been in video production business for a long time, worked with a lot of teleprompters. There’s no reason to be completely shy of them and say, you know, I’m never going to use a teleprompter. Generally, though, I try and advise people to work from notes, even if you’re looking down at your notes and then back to the camera to deliver your content it comes across more organically and naturally. And even if you mess up and you find a way to recover from that mess up, that tells us something about you. I think where people go wrong with video is they want it to be perfect because we want to be seen as perfect. And a teleprompter can give you perfection, but we don’t really relate to perfection. We relate to human and humans are inherently flawed. [6:50]

Nancy Calabrese: Oh. How long should videos be?

Chris Weiher: Generally, when you first get started, I say, let it be as long as it needs to be, because people are very forgiving when you first get started. As you keep going, you do need to improve your content, so it’s better to be short or get to the point. But when you first get started, I say, if you talk for four minutes for your first video and you like it and you think it’s quality, put it out there, see what people say. As you keep going, it is better to get shorter and shorter. But I’ve put out videos on LinkedIn that were eight minutes long tutorials, and because they were very valuable for my network, people watched them, and people thanked me for that eight-minute video, which, you know, if you have the content as good, the best rule of thumb I’ve heard is make it as long as it is good. Once it stops being good, cut it short. [7:48]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah. I’ve heard contrary to that, that they should be shorter, like four minutes or less. Have you heard that?

Chris Weiher: Oh, yes, in my mind, four minutes is actually very long on LinkedIn. But I don’t want to say that to people who haven’t gotten started with video because that then puts an added level of pressure on them. Like, oh, geez, I don’t know what to say. I don’t know how to get into three minutes. How am I going to do it? As you’re getting started, give yourself permission to do it a little wrong and to do it a little longer than it would be. And as you go, you can improve and make it shorter and shorter. But once you’re kind of moving along, I really recommend two to three minutes max. [8:31]

Nancy Calabrese: Two-three minutes. Yeah, I don’t have a long attention span. That’s my problem.

Chris Weiher: Nobody does, and our engine spans are getting so short right now.

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, are there any particular skills that you have to have to create, you know, a video that’s worth watching or compelling videos?

Chris Weiher: There are skills and like I tell folks is that to do video it’s a skill and a talent. Some people are just naturally talented at this, and they just start doing it and it works for them and other people must build up the skills and it’s not unlike public speaking. I think we all remember probably the first time I got in front of a group. I hated it. It was terrifying. [9:18]

Nancy Calabrese: Hated it. Right?

Chris Weiher: Hated it, right. The worst feeling and it can feel that way too with video. When I first did my videos on LinkedIn, every time I put the upload button, I was like, oh geez, this could be the one that tanks and ruins my reputation. But you just, I don’t know, its practice makes perfect in a lot of ways. The skills are you know talking to an inanimate object that gives you no reaction. So, if that means you need to have a friend or a spouse or somebody behind the camera that can nod and smile at you while you talk, do it. To some extent, I think that ends up being my role with some of our clients is just to have a face on the other side of Zoom. Right, and go, that was really good. And then I also can go, that was not good. Do it again. [10:07]

Nancy Calabrese: All right. to be the rah-rah person. Okay. And so how much content does a businessperson need to put out to really start driving results?

Chris Weiher: I recommend one video a week. There’s a lot of folks out there that are in the social media game that are saying you need to have something out every single day. I totally disagree with that. I think for most people it’s going to burn out your audience and they’re going to ignore you. If you are a real B2B company, one video a week is plenty for people to see your face, see you. It’s like just like going to a networking event. You don’t go every day; you go once a month or once a week. And then you do want to have some other supplemental material that you’re also putting out. That could be an article, that could be newsletters, it could be other kinds of posts to supplement that video. But for some of my clients, they really were doing one, one of my newest clients, he’s doing a video a week and he’s already getting referrals from that. So yeah, it’s…

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Oh wow!

Chris Weiher: It’s just about showing up and being there consistently, providing value. [11:20]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. What about the cost? Is it expensive to do this?

Chris Weiher: It doesn’t have to be. It really doesn’t have to be. I mean, so for most folks when they’re getting started, I say use your phone. If you have a little tripod at home, then put it on the tripod and put it on your desk and write out your 10 questions and record them and see if any of them are good. And if they are put it out. That’s about as cheap as you can do it. You know for our clients for four videos a month, we charge $7.75. I don’t know if that’s cheap or expensive for people, it depends on your business, but I really do think it is, it’s an invaluable skill that I think people should learn because yeah, it’s just one of those skills that you want to have in your tool belt. [12:13]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, you talked earlier about, you know, posting videos that you’re frequently asked question list. But what kinds of things should we be talking about besides the FAQs? Any examples?

Chris Weiher: Absolutely. So usually, I recommend that people pick three areas that they want to speak to and depending on how niche and narrow your business is, so one of our clients is industrial engineering consulting company and that when I first started working with them, I was like I don’t know how we’re going to make this interesting. To people who do process improvement and Six Sigma training and lean, they can talk about this for hours. So that’s one sort of area that Matt talks about. And there’s other things that he talks about as well, like he’ll talk about his family life, about vacations. So, he really kind of does just a little bit of the personal side. But the more niche you are, I recommend don’t go much more than three topics. Another one of our clients, Allison, works in the Caribbean, and so her company is based there. And so, they talk, she talks sometimes about just issues that are around the people of the Caribbean countries to get conversations started about like, not necessarily political, but things that are happening in the government or what have you. And that gets the conversation going. And then she also talks about her media marketing company. So those other topics bring people in and get them interested in you as a person and interested in what you care about. And then you can also talk about your business. And when you’re talking about your business, yeah, I mean, the key things to talk about are client wins, case studies of things that have gone well, projects that have gone well things that are new, so maybe if you have a new service or a new product that you’re working on, great, but then also talking about the challenges of your business and usually the bigger the challenge and the closer it is to current events, the more time you want to kind of give it. So, if you lost the client this month, you don’t really want to talk about it that month but maybe next year you do and you want to talk about how challenging that was and what you did to recover from it and how it felt because that’s what we really connect to is the emotional side of things. The good and the bad. Yeah. [15:09]

Nancy Calabrese: Sure, sure. Oh sorry, I think I cut you off. I didn’t mean to.

Chris Weiher: Oh no no, that’s kind of, I was kind of rapping, rapping him.

Nancy Calabrese: Okay, and so when you do video, do you make recommendations for the background, what it should look like?

Chris Weiher: I do. I usually help people figure out where they want to film things and oftentimes it starts out in their office, but I usually push people once they’re comfortable doing that in their office to say, okay, let’s change up the background. Let’s either film something in another part of your house or if you are going into an office, film something in a conference room there. Something that’s becoming a little bit more popular is like the walk and talk, which depending on your coordination levels, it can be easier or harder to do. I tend to like it. Yeah. But yes, I think there is a strong reason to change up your environment because, you know, you put out your first four videos and people will probably get a great response on LinkedIn. The fifth one, if it looks the same as the other four, it’s probably going to get a little slight lesseree.

Nancy Calabrese: Right. You don’t want to trip and fall.

Chris Weiher: So, you must continue to be creative and think of other things, but that can be as easy as just going into your living room and filming a video there. So, it’s not rocket science. [16:31]

Nancy Calabrese: And what about a tire?

Chris Weiher: I would say wear what you’re comfortable in, wear what you wear to work. Wear what’s going to attract your ideal clients. I’m sure you’re aware of a customer avatar and you’re marketing to one person that represents a bigger group of people. If that person is going to respond to you being underdressed, then you should probably dress up for your video even if you don’t have any meetings. [17:03]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, yeah, you need to match their style as best as you can. I would think so, right?

Chris Weiher: Yep. And but also to do what’s natural for you. If you don’t ever wear a collared shirt, then don’t certainly put it on for your video. If people know you as the t-shirt guy who does six figure deals, then don’t change for video. Do what feels right to you. [17:25]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, t-shirt guy. I like that. Who do you like to work with?

Chris Weiher: Hahaha! I like to work with small and medium sized business owners. I really like to work with a team that has maybe five to 10 people and work strategically with them where we’re really making a difference. We’ve done a lot of videos for big companies and obviously those are very fun too. But most of those videos are seen internally. And I really like to work with companies that were making a difference to their bottom line, they’re seeing results, and it’s more satisfying for me. [18:08]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Last question. I mean, where do you see the future of video production going?

Chris Weiher: I think it is never going away. I think that AI is going to disrupt things. There is an app now that I was testing out this week called HeyGen, and you might be blown away by the facsimile that it can create of you on camera.

Nancy Calabrese: Wow.

Chris Weiher: I’ve shown it to a couple of people and they didn’t even realize that it was AI generated.

Nancy Calabrese: Wow, how do you spell that?

Chris Weiher: h-e-y-g-e-n, and I think it might be a dot com, I could be wrong, but it’s wild. Now, the longer the clip you watch of it, the more obvious it becomes that this is not a human, this is generated by a computer. But it is only a matter of time before it gets better and better and better, and in five years it’s going to be a very different landscape. [19:18]

Nancy Calabrese: Okay, cool.

Chris Weiher: So, technology is moving very quickly. That said, the human component is going to be the hardest thing to replace. And if you can really leverage video as a part of your communication strategy, I think that element is never really going to be fully replaced, but it will be supplemented, I think, by AI. [19:42]

Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Well, I’m with you about human conversation, human connection. Just like you said, that’s never going to go away. How can my people find you?

Chris Weiher: They can most easily connect with me on LinkedIn. That’s where I do most of my networking. They can just search my name, Chris, C-H-R-I-S, Weir, W-E-I-H-E-R, and I should come up easily there with my company, Cleaver Creative, and connect with me. And I’m always happy to have conversations and help people out. [20:15]

Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. Well, I told you before we went on, I was going to learn a lot and I sure have, and I’m sure my audience has learned a lot as well. Hey, take advantage of Chris’s expertise, get in touch with him, connect on LinkedIn. And Chris, you’re great. Thanks so much for being on the show.

Chris Weiher: Thank you, Nancy. This was a real pleasure. I really appreciate it.

Nancy Calabrese: I really enjoyed it. And until next time, folks, happy selling, happy video making. That’s all for this one, OK? See you next time. [20:54]

 

Tim Fitzpatrick: Accelerating Business Growth with Marketing Tips

About Tim Fitzpatrick: Tim Fitzpatrick founded Rialto Marketing, which provides marketing consulting, advisory, and outsourced or part-time marketing executive services. They help B2B professional service firms grow faster without the commitment or cost of a full-time executive. Tim achieves this by identifying and removing revenue roadblocks in three key marketing areas: Strategy, which serves as your fuel; Planning, your marketing vehicles; and Leadership, the driver behind it all. Aligning these three elements is crucial for accelerating your revenue growth. Tim tends to work with growth-focused B2B professional service firms like MSPs, IT consultants, cybersecurity firms, business consultants, accountants/tax advisors, attorneys, insurance brokers, etc. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Tim.

In this episode, Nancy and Tim discuss the following:

  • Tim’s journey from a mathematics major to entrepreneurship in marketing
  • The common pitfalls businesses face in wasting time and money on marketing due to information overload
  • Why having a narrow target market is crucial for effective marketing
  • Insights on the frequency and value of marketing messages
  • The benefits of 90-day planning cycles over year-long plans.

Key Takeaways: 

  • I will be the first person to tell you from a marketing standpoint that it is about testing: there is a lot of marketing you will do that will not work.
  • I am a huge proponent of narrowing your market.
  • The Revenant Roadblock Scorecard is a self-assessment and takes less than five minutes.
  • How can you expect to consistently convert leads if you don’t have a sales process?

“There are several reasons why people are wasting time and money on marketing. In my opinion, what happens with marketing most of the time is that people battle information overload. There are so many different marketing channels and tactics within those marketing channels today. We’re just like, where do we even start? And what most people do is jump right to tactics. I need to have a website. I need to have a YouTube channel or a podcast, or I need to be on Facebook. We just immediately jumped to acting. But when we do that, we’re skipping strategy. And the way I think about strategy is strategy is like fuel. The marketing tactics, the channels, those are vehicles. And when we jump right into the vehicle with no fuel, we all know how well that’s going to work, right? ” – TIM

“Too many businesses do not have a firm handle on their ideal clients. And because they don’t have a firm handle on who their ideal clients are, their message to the market sucks. You can’t create a message that will attract and engage people until you know who the heck you’re trying to attract and engage. Without those two elements in place, it is very difficult for your marketing to work consistently and, frankly, for you to know why it’s working. Because most people are just throwing the spaghetti up against a wall, hoping it sticks. So, if we can take a step back and invest the time in strategy and then go back to the marketing vehicles, it’s going to work much better, it’s going to be more effective, and you’re going to experience much more consistent, repeatable results with it.” – TIM

“the pandemic is a perfect example of this. If you had a year-long marketing plan that you had put in place at the beginning of 2020, come March, that plan either went into a drawer or you lit it on fire. Because here’s why I don’t like yearlong plans. One, there is no year-long plan. And this goes with marketing. It goes with any other planning you’re doing for your business. In my opinion, year-long plans are the same at the end as they were at the beginning. They change, and they change quickly. And what tends to happen with year-long plans is they become very complex. There are too many moving pieces, and complexity is the enemy of results. We need to keep things simple. And when we can keep them simple, we have a much higher likelihood of effectively implementing and executing them. And if it’s going to change quickly anyways, why take the time?” – TIM

Connect with Tim Fitzpatrick:

Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/

Connect with Nancy Calabrese: 

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.

Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today, and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Tim Fitzpatrick, the president and founder of Rialto Mobile Marketing, a company which provides marketing consulting and outsourced or fractional CMO services to help B2B professional service firms accelerate growth. With more than 20 years of entrepreneurial experience, Tim helps clients remove revenue roadblocks by focusing on three critical areas of marketing strategy planning and leadership. Tim graduated with a mathematics major from UC Berkeley and started his career working in his family’s business before going into entrepreneurship Welcome to the show Tim. I’m so happy to have you!

Tim Fitzpatrick: Nancy, thanks for having me. I’m excited to connect with you today. [1:19]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, OK, so the one thing that jumps out to me, how does a math major wind up in marketing? Ha ha.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Ha, it’s a winding road, let’s put it that way. You kind of touched on it. When I got out of college, I had no idea what the heck I wanted to do. And my dad had been a manufacturer’s rep for a long time. He had started a distribution company a couple of years before that, that was related to that business. And when I got out, I had no idea what I was going to do. And I was like, hey, I know you need help. He had no full-time people in the company at that point. And I said, let me help you for the summer. And so, I helped him for the summer, and I was hooked. Like we were selling home theater equipment, distributed audio, selling to contractors that were installing home theaters in people’s homes. Nancy, I learned more doing that in six months than I did in four years of college. I just, I loved it. I was hooked. And my dad and I ended up working together for nine years until we sold, but we grew about 60% a year. And it was fun, it was great. So, after we sold, I worked for the company for another three years. I stayed with the company and moved from where I was in Northern California to Colorado. And then in 2009, I got laid off. We got bought by a public company and we all know what happened in 2008. [2:49]

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

Tim Fitzpatrick: And in 2009, they closed 30% of the branch locations that we had across the country. And so, after that, I transitioned. I got into real estate. So, I was a residential real estate agent. For several years, I was door knocking people that were in foreclosure at the time and doing a lot of short sale business. You know, Nate, you know, on the sales side, I mean, the first time I knocked on a door, I was absolutely freaking terrified. But the more I knocked, the more I got comfortable. You know, I was pushing myself outside of my comfort zone every day. But I got to a place where I was like waking up every day going, oh my God, I must do this all over again. And so that’s when I looked at shifting again and I looked at, you know, what am I good at? Where are my skill sets? And that’s when I got into marketing. And I’m not going to tell you my road, my path in marketing has been straight. It’s been winding as well because marketing is just so broad, but that’s how I got in marketing in a nutshell. [3:51]

Nancy Calabrese: Cool, well, you’ve got the sales edge too. Listen, you know, a lot of people feel that they’re wasting time and money on marketing. Why is that?

Tim Fitzpatrick: Ha! There are several reasons why people are wasting time and money on marketing. Because in my opinion, most of the time what happens with marketing is people are battling information overload. There are so many different marketing channels today and so many tactics within those marketing channels. We’re just like, where do we even start? And what most people do is jump right to tactics. I need to have a website. I need to have a YouTube channel or a podcast, or I need to be on Facebook. We just immediately jumped to acting. But when we do that, we’re skipping strategy. And the way I think about strategy is strategy is like fuel. The marketing tactics, the channels, those are vehicles. And when we just jump right into the vehicle with no fuel, we all know how well that’s going to work, right? [4:59]

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

Tim Fitzpatrick: That’s why people end up wasting time and money on marketing. I will be the first person to tell you from marketing standpoint, it is about testing. There is a lot of marketing you’re going to do that is not going to work.

Nancy Calabrese: Really?

Tim Fitzpatrick: Absolutely. But when you find what works, say that again.

Nancy Calabrese: I mean, does that vary from business to business? Does that vary from business to business?

Tim Fitzpatrick: Ah, that you’re going to try marketing, that’s not going to work.

Nancy Calabrese: Well, like some marketing methods may work better in some industries over other industries.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yes, that’s true. What I would say though is, any of the marketing vehicles can work. You know, you just, you must have the right strategy behind it. Too many businesses do not have a firm handle on who their ideal clients are. And because they don’t have a firm handle on who their ideal clients are, their message to the market sucks. Like you can’t create a message that’s going to attract and engage people until you know who the heck you’re trying to attract and engage. Without those two elements in place, it is very difficult for your marketing to work consistently and frankly for you to know why it’s working. Because most people are just throwing the spaghetti up against a wall hoping it sticks. So, if we can take a step back and invest the time in strategy and then go back to the marketing vehicles, it’s going to work much better, it’s going to be more effective, and you’re going to experience much more consistent, repeatable results with it. [6:50]

Nancy Calabrese: Huh. You know, I’ve often heard that it’s best to have a narrow target market. And why is that important and what’s a simple way to do it?

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yes, so I am definitely a huge proponent of narrowing your market. At least at first, most people’s initial roadblock is, well, if I narrow, then I’m closing off a bunch of the market. But the thing is when we focus, things become much, much easier. Most businesses are targeting a market that is far too broad, right? It’s almost like the only thing, when you target broadly, the only thing you can see is the entire red of the bullseye can’t see the rest of the target. When we focus, right, it brings that target into Zoom, and now we can hit a target that we can see. We can’t hit a target that we can’t. So when it’s too broad, we can’t see it. So, we’ve got to narrow it down. And when we narrow it down, what it allows us to do is, one, it makes it much easier to identify where we need to be to get in front of those people. It also allows us to create a message that is specific to that audience. And one of my mentors said specificity sells, right? The more specific we can be with our marketing and our sales message, the more effective it’s going to be. So, one of the easiest ways to start to narrow in on a target market and identify who your ideal clients are is if you’re an existing business, like you don’t need to reinvent the wheel. You’ve been working with clients. [8:31]

Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Right.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Start with your existing and your past clients. It’s the easiest place to start. And what I call these, the three power questions. Who do you love working with? Who are your most profitable clients? And who do you get great results for? You are looking for people that check all three of those boxes.

Nancy Calabrese: I like that.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Once you have that group, then you can start to look in that group to find where the commonalities are. And with that, we start to look at demographics, the numbers behind those people, but also the psychographics behind those people. What are their goals? What are the common problems they have? How are they feeling? Those things. And what ends up happening when you go through this process, Nancy, is inevitably you end up with some subgroups that have commonalities. And so, for example, I just, I just interviewed a managed service provider and IT consultant on my podcast who went through this process about two years ago. And they were like, Oh my God, over half of our clients are in the healthcare space. Why are we not? Why are we not focusing strictly on the healthcare space? Okay, and so that’s what they did. It is a very eye-opening process. If people that are listening to this do one thing from this interview, do that one thing. You will be shocked at what you see, and then you can start to take the steps to improve your marketing once you have that data. [10:16]

Nancy Calabrese: Right. Wow. Huh, great suggestion. How often should we be sending marketing messages out? How frequent?

Tim Fitzpatrick: That’s a loaded question, Nancy. As often as you can, I think certainly your market needs to be accustomed to how you’re going to communicate. But think about it also depends on the medium. On social, you can post on social as many times as you want. As long as you’ve got something important to say and share. You know, the email’s different, but I don’t know about you, Nancy, but I’m on some email lists where I get daily emails. And I get daily email messages from those people marketing their business. [11:11]

Nancy Calabrese: You get daily meetings? Oh. Yeah, well that annoys me. Yeah.

Tim Fitzpatrick: So right for me though, for these particular people, I’m okay with that because they’re sending out valuable information. So how often you communicate, again, this comes back to understanding your market and understanding what type of frequency you need to communicate with them. But I would tell you, most people are not communicating enough.

Nancy Calabrese: Huh, interesting.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Okay, because, you know, if you’re not staying in front of your ideal clients, they’re gonna forget about you, right, but you need to add value to people. If all you’re getting is a sales message every day, like that’s gonna be annoying for people, right? But if you’re providing information that’s valuable for them, that’s helping them, are they gonna care? No, they’re not, because it’s helping them. [12:13]

Nancy Calabrese: Well, listen, let’s talk about your revenue roadblock scoreboard. Tell us about that.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah, yeah, revenue roadblock scorecard is what we call it. And it’s you mentioned this in the beginning, you know, at my company, Realtor Marketing, when we work with clients, we are helping them remove their roadblocks, right? If you want to grow, if you want to accelerate growth, you need to remove the roadblocks that are in your way. And we focus on three critical areas of marketing strategy, planning, leadership. Right. So, you think of strategy like fuel planning is the vehicles and leadership are the driver who’s going to be the driver. So, within those three areas, there are three additional roadblocks and we focus on helping people remove those. So, all also there’s nine in total. You’ve got your target market. You’ve got your message. You’ve got your services in your offers. Then you look at lead generation. How are you going to generate leads? Then you look at lead conversion. How are you actually going to convert them? I’m sure you see this on the sales side. A lot of people have no sales process. Like if you don’t have a sales process, how can you expect to consistently convert leads? Then we look at what are you doing to retain clients and what are you doing to generate referrals? And then when we transition into the leadership side of it, we look at what metrics are you gonna track, overseeing implementation and execution, and then ongoing optimization. Those are the nine roadblocks. So, the Revenant Roadblock Scorecard, it is a self-assessment. It takes less than five minutes. You go there, you answer some questions, and then it grades you on each of those roadblocks, so that you start to get an idea of, hey, where are we doing well and where are we not? Because all of these things, if they are a roadblock and you don’t have those dialed in, they are going to be a roadblock in your way to growing revenue and accelerating growth. [14:29]

Nancy Calabrese: Oh, how can my people access that?

Tim Fitzpatrick: They can access that at revenueroadblockscorecard.com.

Nancy Calabrese: Cool, cool. So a company engages your services. How long does it take for them to see a return on their investment?

Tim Fitzpatrick: The answer that I’m going to give you, which is what everybody hates, is it depends. Here’s what I will tell you. Most of the things that I am focusing on, marketing takes time. OK. Another reason why marketing fails for most people is they’re thinking short term, not long term. And they don’t give the marketing that they’re doing enough time to work. So, when you engage anybody from a marketing standpoint, you need to be thinking long term. [15:21]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, right.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Okay. Having said that, there are things that you can do to get more immediate results while you’re investing the time and the effort on those things that are going to take a little bit longer to bear fruit. Okay. So, for example, okay, when we work with the client, there are some areas for quick wins. I’m going to give you; I’ll give you some right now. One, what’s already working in your business. What’s already working to generate leads? So, here’s an example for that. Most people are generating a lot of referrals. When I ask them, how are you doing that? Most of them say it’s just happening. What you are already doing that’s working is not fully optimized. You don’t have, if you don’t have a system in place or have gaps in that system, you want to fill those. So, that’s a quick win area. If you can put in a system if you don’t have it or fill in some gaps in that system to make it even better, that’s an area for a quick win. Another area for a quick win is what used to work that you stopped doing. We all have things that we used to do and then we got to, they were working great and then we got distracted with something else and we stopped. Well, you can go back and start doing that again. [16:46]

Nancy Calabrese: Right.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Those are two simple areas for quick wins while you’re working on your marketing efforts that are gonna take more time to bear fruit. The other thing is paid ads. Paid ads, you know, Google ads, Facebook ads, you know, social ads of any kind can be a way to start to generate quicker leads, but I’m gonna tell you, even with those, it does take, you know, it can take a month, two months, three months to really optimize that and dial it in. [17:18]

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. And that could be expensive, don’t you think? Yeah.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yes, it can. It can be. Yeah, it can be if you’re not generating the right leads or you’re not and/or you’re not converting.

Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. You know, you shared with me that you think a year-long marketing plan is a waste of time. Why is that?

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah. So, Nancy, the pandemic is a perfect example of this. If you had a year-long marketing plan that you had put in place the beginning of 2020, come March, that plan either went into a drawer or you lit it on fire. Because here’s why I don’t like yearlong plans. One, there is no year-long plan. And this goes with marketing. It goes with any other planning you’re doing for your business. In my opinion, year-long plans, no yearlong plan is the same at the end as it was at the beginning. They change and they change quickly. And what tends to happen with year-long plans is they become very complex. There’s too many moving pieces and complexity is the enemy of results. We need to keep things simple. And when we can keep them simple, we have a much higher likelihood of effectively implementing and executing on it. And if it’s going to change quickly anyways, why take the time? [18:44]

Nancy Calabrese: That’s true.

Tim Fitzpatrick: I think you need to have an idea of what your goals are for a year out, three years out. But I think we need to focus on our planning in 90-days sprints. 90-days keeps it simple. It allows you to identify those, you know, those one, two, three really important objectives that if you accomplish those, it’s gonna help you get one step closer to your, to your long-term goals, but it just, it doesn’t, it keeps things simple, and you know exactly what you need to focus on. 90 days with marketing is long enough to start seeing traction, right? Is the action that we’ve taken over the past 90 days helping us push forward, but it’s short enough where we can make course corrections, and then we just wash, rinse, repeat every 90 days. [19:41]

Nancy Calabrese: Love it. I can’t believe, Tim, we’re up with time. I find what you say fascinating. How can my people find you?

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah. Two ways one we already touched on which is the Revenue Roadblock scorecard.com The other way is going directly to the Rialto marketing website. It’s our www.rialtomarketing.com you can connect with all our social there. We put out a ton of content I got a podcast blog content That’s the best place to start. I am also super active on LinkedIn. So if anybody wants to connect with me there That’s another great place. [20:20]

Nancy Calabrese: Okay. So, you must love Florence.

Tim Fitzpatrick: So, I visited, I went on a cruise in 2006 that started in Venice. And the Venice Bridge, the Rialto Bridge is in Venice. Yeah, yeah, it’s in Venice. And so that’s kind of where the name came from, but…

Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Oh it is? I thought it was in Florence.

Tim Fitzpatrick: I also, when I think of marketing, I think of marketing as a bridge that helps people get from where they are to where they wanna be.

Nancy Calabrese: I love it. Listen, you know what? I’m just confusing it with Ponte Vecchio. So anyway, I love Italy. I loved our conversation. I hope you’ll come back and people out there, take advantage of the Revenue Roadblock Scorecard and see where it takes you. And get in touch with Tim if you really wanna scale your marketing efforts. So, until we speak again, make it a great sales and marketing day. See you next time. [21:27]