by Nancy Calabrese | Oct 10, 2023 | Podcast
About Jessie van Breugel: Jessie is the Founder of Realigned Coaching creator of Brand Yourself as A Creator: The Ultimate Guide and The Branded Creators Community. Co-founder of Build Your House Club, a vibrant community of creators to clarify your message, produce consistent value, & grow your audience. He views himself as a visual copywriter, using words and design to share his message. His vision is to bring wisdom to everyday life and inspire others to live on their terms—currently, 3x Top Writer on Medium in Inspiration, Social Media, and Entrepreneurship. A former employee of one of Europe’s hottest tech unicorns turned digital creator. He is building his business at the crossroads of writing, visual design, product management, and digital marketing. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Jessie.
In this episode, Nancy and Jessie discuss the following:
- How to make the most out of LinkedIn.
- Master the art of selling on LinkedIn without sounding too pushy.
- Understand how building connections on LinkedIn can lead to successful sales.
- Explore why the term ‘sales’ often has a negative perception.
- Determine the ideal posting frequency on LinkedIn for optimal results.
- Gain insights into the algorithms that LinkedIn uses to block certain accounts.
- Avoid common mistakes when creating content on LinkedIn to enhance engagement.
Key Takeaways:
- You never know who’s watching on LinkedIn because people are scrolling the feed and waiting for that message or content to help them act.
- Sales has a negative connotation because people often think about the door-to-door salesman or woman, car sales dealers, etc.
- To sell your stuff to your audience, people need to see it. That’s why reactions are essential.
- A lesson that I learned over time is that you want to let a post-run for a few days because if a post does well, even a week later, it could still reach new people.
- I am like, “Hey, educational content is great, but move towards more authority-building content, and then we can transform it into lead-generating content.”
“I would say the traditional thinking of LinkedIn is that it’s still a place where people share updates about new jobs or certain company updates. I had that too out of sight till about three years back, but I also figured out that LinkedIn is still the number one business platform in the world. And as we see with all the content platforms, like the social media platforms, there is a big drive towards content creation. I started writing online, and at a certain point, I wondered why not go to LinkedIn. Because as I just said, there are so many decision-makers, potential people watching there waiting for that, waiting for the call to action also say.” – JESSIE
“One of the frameworks that I heavily use for myself and my clients is the acronym FODOFs. It stands for fear, objections, desire, obstacles, and frustrations. Of course, we don’t want to always use them all in one piece of content, but by strategically using each for a specific type of content, we can show our audience or our prospect that we understand them.” – JESSIE.
“I hear that perspective, and I would say earlier on in my career, I also had this notion that selling is bad or self-promoting is bad. So, I had to debunk that for myself. And now I believe that if you genuinely know that you, your service, or your product is helping your audience or your clients, it’s almost a disservice not to tell them about it because I know I solve a very hot topic, like lead generation on LinkedIn. And I know that I help a lot of people with that. Like if I look at my clients’ results, I’m helping them get more business. I’m helping them make more money. So sure, like I’m selling to my audience, but I also know that the right people were like: “Hey, this really helps me!”. And I think that’s for all of us. Like if we know that because that’s what entrepreneurship at its core is, right? It’s like, someone has a problem, someone else has a solution, and it’s either a service or a product that helps them get from A to B.” – JESSIE.
Connect with Jessie van Breugel:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Jessie Van Breugel, a LinkedIn expert and founder of Realign Coaching and the Creator Academy. He is also a Co-founder of Build Your House Club, a vibrant community of creators to clarify your message, produce consistent value, and grow your audience. Jesse identifies himself as a digital creator who’s building cool stuff and helping as many like-minded experts generate high-quality leads for their service business through LinkedIn and email. Jesse was named as a top-50 LinkedIn creator worldwide. Congratulations on that, Jesse, and welcome to the show.
Jessie van Breugel: Well, that’s an interesting introduction, but thanks for having me, Nancy. I’m excited to chat with you and the audience today. [1:18]
Nancy Calabrese: The one thing that jumps out and you have posted on your website, LinkedIn has over 63 million decision-makers. That’s amazing.
Jessie van Breugel: Exactly. And that brings me to, I’ll say, one of my favorite sayings that I keep repeating to my clients. You never know who’s watching on LinkedIn, because there are always people scrolling the feed and waiting for that message or that piece of content to help them act.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So how, you know, as a novice, right, you’re the expert, how do you leverage the potential on LinkedIn?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, that’s a great question because most, I would say, the traditional thinking of LinkedIn, okay, it’s still a place where people share updates about new jobs or certain company updates. I had that too out of sight till like three years back, but I also figured out that LinkedIn is the, like, it’s still the number one business platform in the world. And as we see with, like, all the content platforms, like the social media platforms, there is such a big drive towards content creation. I got started on writing online and at a certain point I was like, why not go to LinkedIn? Because as I just said, there are so many decision-makers, potential people watching there waiting for that, waiting for the call to action also say. [2:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Sure. How do you know what to write to really get the attention of the audience?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, I think that’s like trial and error. It comes in the beginning from like speaking to as many people as possible from your target audience, like from peers, and competitors, but also from your prospects and to really infuse those emotional angles in your content. So, one of the frameworks that I heavily use for myself, and for my clients, it’s the acronym called FODOFS. It stands for fear, objections, desire, obstacles, and frustrations. Of course, we don’t want to always use them all in one piece of content, but by strategically using each one of them for a specific type of content, we can show our audience or our prospect that we really understand them. [3:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, okay. Can you repeat that acronym?
Jessie van Breugel: for sure. So, it’s FODOF, which stands for fear, objection, desire, obstacle, and frustration. So those are the main five buckets.
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, okay. So how do you sell on LinkedIn without being salesy?
Jessie van Breugel: That’s a good question because I think that’s one of the bad raps selling on LinkedIn has because people feel, okay, it’s too much promoting and like in your face. And I think that’s where like implementing the photos has been a big game changer for me, but also really applying like storytelling principles. Because in the end, we learn as humans through stories. And especially as we’re all working with our clients, mostly on a one-on-one or a group setting of service providers, we have tangible results of before and after with our clients. So that’s of course where a case study framework always comes into play because we can write a story about how their life was before working with us and that’s often painful or frustrating. [5:01] We did work together.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Right.
Jessie van Breugel: And at the end, it’s rainbows and sunshine. It’s like the desired state, and it comes with a lot of peace of mind and relief. So that’s, I think, a simple example of how we can infuse selling into storytelling. Because people on LinkedIn, they see the post, they see the first two, or three lines, and they want to click see more. And only at the end, if the story’s, of course, captivating enough, they will see, oh, I’m being sold to, in a bit of a quote, instead of straight out of the gate, like asking people for their contact details or whatever. I don’t think that’s the right way of doing it. [5:37]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, I have a colleague, and we didn’t agree on this, but she also works in the LinkedIn space, and she doesn’t believe that connecting in LinkedIn should be used to sell. And I disagree. You know, I mean, it’s very nice to have a conversation, but…You know, the goal is to connect with like-minded people in the hopes that it might convert to business. What do you have to say about that?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, I hear that perspective and I would say earlier on in my career, I also had this notion of like, like selling is a bad thing or like self-promoting is a bad thing. So, I had to like, like debunk that for myself. And now I really believe that if you genuinely know that you, your, service, or your product is helping you, your audience, or your clients, it’s almost a disservice to not tell them about it because I know I solve a very hot topic, like lead generation on LinkedIn. And I know that I help a lot of people with that. Like if I look at the results of my clients, I’m helping them get more business. I’m helping them make more money. So sure, like I’m selling to my audience, but I also know that the right people, they were like, hey, this really helps me. And I think that’s for all of us. Like if we know that because that’s what entrepreneurship at its core is, right? It’s like, someone has a problem, someone else has a solution to it, and it’s either a service or a product that helps them get from A to B. [7:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. I mean, why is sales such a bad word? I don’t get it. It’s just, you know, an opportunity to communicate with someone else. And if it’s a match, that’s like you just said, I think it would be a disservice not to want to go to convert to, you know, a client.
Jessie van Breugel: Exactly. Yeah. And I think sales have a negative connotation because people often think about the door-to-door salesman or woman the sleazy cars, car sales dealers. Back when I was in high school. I liked for one year I did like the door-to-door sales, but of course, like it’s Super cold because I was just walking like a small village in Holland where I’m from and that’s of course like that what gives selling a bad thing because people are just enjoying their dinner because we always went to like dinner time or like the end of the afternoon. And people were not waiting for us. So, they opened the door and there I was like pitching them straight out of nothing. So of course, that’s like the old way of like doing sales. I think has given a bad rep. But as your show is, of course, also like brilliantly named, it’s like Conversational Selling is a different aspect of that because you’re selling something based on like the conversation and like a mutual connection, understanding that you can help this person, or this group of people get closer to where they want to go. [8:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, you just triggered a memory when I was in, I don’t know, even think I was in high school, maybe junior high, I went door to door selling cards, and I hated it. I hated it. You know?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, exactly. It was not my favorite job either, but it taught me a lot about rejection and just putting in the reps and all those things. [9:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Right. You know, it’s funny. I want to talk to you about impressions. And maybe you can tell the audience what an impression is and how to convert them to conversations.
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, so in a nutshell, impressions on any platform, but let’s take LinkedIn for the example, of course, is someone that sees your content. So that’s the pair of eyeballs that sees your content. And it’s often said that impressions are like a vanity metric. You don’t want to care too much about it. But still, to sell your stuff to your audience, to put it plainly, people need to see it. So, it’s like a fine line between, okay, I need to have people see my things, but I also don’t need to care about too much. And I think the interesting part is where, there is a difference between like, let’s say transactional things, like let’s say consumer goods or like high ticket services as we’re here doing here, because people that see my content for the first time the chances are extremely low that they will buy instantly, because especially with high ticket service, it also needs to be a lot of trust and credibility built. And by just having a consistent output of content, each piece of content will of course move the prospect closer to reaching out to you signing up for your program, or booking a call. And I think that’s why content is such a highly leveraged asset you can build. That’s how I see it because I push out content every day knowing that I see it as like an army of digital warriors. So, they all go out and they travel the world as to say, getting impressions, getting people to see my name, to see perhaps my profile, to get them closer to working with me. So, I think that’s like the short answer to the impressions and how they, I would say tie into getting people to buy your things or to do business with you. [11:15]
Nancy Calabrese: So how do you find the impressions of people who looked at it?
Jessie van Breugel: Do you mean where you can see them?
Nancy Calabrese: Like for instance, if you had 300 plus impressions, how are you going to find those people?
Jessie van Breugel: That’s an interesting question because I currently don’t use any external analytics for LinkedIn because I had my account flagged a few times, so I don’t want to risk it to add additional tools to LinkedIn. So, I’m currently just staring at the native analytics from LinkedIn. Basically, what it shows me is the people who are engaging or who are seeing my post. [12:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Jessie van Breugel: But I don’t use it as a steering metric in my business. As I said earlier, sure, it’s nice to see for me that my impressions go up week after week. But I rate the success of my content more by the conversations it starts or the inbound leads it gets me.
Nancy Calabrese: Got it. So, you mentioned that you post every day on LinkedIn. Is there, you know, could people be posting too much content? What are your thoughts on that?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. Before I got to LinkedIn, I was active on Twitter. And on Twitter, there was much more frequency. So, tweeting a few times a day is there the norm. When I got to LinkedIn, I kind of adopted that mindset. Understanding it wouldn’t be the most strategic decision because the LinkedIn algorithm works in such a way that the posts have more of like a long tail. But in the beginning, I really understood like, okay, for me to get more data on what works and what doesn’t work, I just need to put in the reps and to see what resonates with my audience. Ideally, it’s like one post a day, which for me works the best, but a lesson that I learned over time and that ties into having LinkedIn or LinkedIn having the long-term effect of a post is that if a post of you does really well, so let’s say it’s like sometimes it’s like it does like three to four times better than other posts, you just want to let it run for a few days because if a post does well, like a week later, it could still reach new people. So, I think that’s where the difference comes into play. And that ties in with what I said earlier, like the good piece of content, I see that as like an army of digital warriors for me just conquering new ground. [14:05]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Jessie van Breugel: Tapping into new audiences and looking for new people.
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. You mentioned that you’ve been flagged. Why does LinkedIn flag accounts?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, that’s a good question. I don’t have a finite answer to that. I know they are wary of third-party tools. So, I know certain accounts just have issues with it. I’m not saying that’s the case for everyone, because I know a lot of my connections, they thrive with those tools. I think my account just got, I don’t know, marked somewhere in the system. So I’m really hesitant about that. So yeah, I don’t have a finite answer to that. It’s hard to get. clear on the algorithm and the restrictions there. [14:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh. So, what are some of the common mistakes providers make when creating content on LinkedIn?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, so the first one would be right out of the gate, like promotional posts, which ties into the quad, one of the questions you asked me earlier, because especially as a service provider, no one buys from the get-go, right? There needs to be some trust and some credibility built, which is often done to like case studies and testimonials and seeing like, okay, this works. So, I think that’s one of the big mistakes that I see happening. And then on the other side of the spectrum is that when service providers, post consistent content, they stay too much on the educational side of things. So, all they do every time that they post, they educate their audience on, let’s say the benefits of their solution or certain elements or insights from their industry, which is great to a certain degree, because I know that my clients, for example, they’re not looking for more information. Like the internet is full of information. [15:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Jessie van Breugel: they’re looking for implementation, guidance, support, accountability, like all these things that are currently missing, because if the information would be the answer to their problem, they would probably already have fixed it. So, I think that is like a big… It’s a minor tweak, but it has a massive impact. So, people that I work with, I’m like, hey, educational content is great, but move towards more authority-building content, and then we can transform it into lead-generating content, because…We’re all experts at what we do. So, I think, as I said earlier, our audience deserves to know it. But we don’t want to educate them only.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. And that brings me to something that I get a lot of. I get invited to attend events. How do you feel about that?
Jessie van Breugel: To LinkedIn events? Yeah, they’re an interesting thing because even like the, like, let’s say you’re in a LinkedIn event, the comments on the event itself count as comments to the actual posts. So, there’s like an interesting dynamic going on there, but I never really used them that much in terms of my growth. Like I prefer to do like a webinar perhaps on Zoom. [17:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Jessie van Breugel: Just use LinkedIn for the promotion and have people then sign up to the link. So that’s been my way of doing that. Plus, the fact that I don’t see that many events on my timeline and within LinkedIn’s inner circles that I’m part of, it’s just like, it’s not really talked about that way. So, for me, that’s a little bit more validation that what I’m doing and what I do to my clients, it’s not the best way of moving forward.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Wow. And you know, and we’re almost up in time, but tell me something that’s true, that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Jessie van Breugel: Hmm, within which context Nancy?
Nancy Calabrese: Maybe with LinkedIn, your area of expertise.
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, I would say within my spheres, I think more people agree with me on that, but it ties into what I said earlier, is like selling on LinkedIn is not a bad thing. Like I’m pretty like hard on that stance because sure you don’t want to like to be this annoying salesman every day all day. But again, like if you do a great job at speaking into the emotional angles of your target audience, if you hint at a better solution, if you tell them…what better future is possible? And you showed that other people got results through that as well. I do think there is, I do know that there is a lot of potential on LinkedIn because so many people are watching there at this stage. I think we have over 900 million people on LinkedIn and less than 1% of people actively like post content. So, people are scrolling, they’re scrolling and lurking on LinkedIn. So yeah, I would say. If you know, okay, I’m genuinely solving this problem for the right people, that you’re doing a service to those people. And not everyone is part of your audience. So certain people will be tuned out by you taking a more promotional angle. But I think that’s fine. [19:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Wow. So less than 1% post?
Jessie van Breugel: Consistently, yeah. So, the stats on that differ a little bit, but less than 1% like post weekly. So, you can assume that even less than that post daily, like I currently do.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Wow, interesting. How can my audience find you?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, so the best way of course is LinkedIn. My full name is Jesse van Breugel, pretty Dutch. So that’s why I think a year and a half back I added a purple dot to my name. So, if people just type in my LinkedIn, my first name, Jesse, and then furlough the purple dot, they can connect with me. Or if they’re interested in one of the courses that I’m building, they can go to premiumleadsystem.com. And it has all the content and modules and all the strategies that I discussed today in different forms. [20:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Cool, how do you spell your last name?
Jessie van Breugel: It’s V-E-N-B-R-E-U-G-L.
Nancy Calabrese: You got it. Everyone, take advantage of what Jesse has to offer and make it a great sales day. Jesse, I hope you come back sometime.
Jessie van Breugel: Well, thanks again for having me, Nancy, and I will take you on that.
Nancy Calabrese: All right. Have a good one, everyone. [20:40]
by Nancy Calabrese | Oct 3, 2023 | Podcast
About Steve Lowell: Steve Lowell is the 20-2021 President of the Global Speakers Federation. He’s been on the live stage for over 50 years, is a Certified Speaking Professional (CSP), and a multi-award-winning professional speaker. Steve speaks to entrepreneurs and shows them how to establish a reputation as the unmistakable authority in their field by changing how they present and sell their expertise. As a main stage speaker at your event, Steve will keep your entire audience captivated, engaged, and entertained. If your audiences are entrepreneurs, business owners, thought leaders, experts, or innovators, Steve will shake their beliefs, disrupt their perspectives, and inspire them to become more than they ever thought they could be. Steve’s content is educational, transformative, and interactive. But most of all, you’ll find Steve to be extremely easy to work with! He rarely uses slides and he always delivers. Steve is an informational keynote speaker. His content is targeted at experts who need a simple method to present, explain, and sell their complex solutions through the spoken word. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Steve.
In this episode, Nancy and Steve discuss the following:
- The art of speaking to sell without selling.
- Steve’s tips on how to become a transformational speaker.
- The best way of making money through speaking.
- Why would so many people struggle to monetize when they speak?
- Sharing information with the audience that will make it buy your product.
- Introverts are the best public speakers.
- The myths that entrepreneurs believe prevent them from making money when they speak.
Key Takeaways:
- The reason why so many people struggle is because we’re under this misconception that when we get in front of an audience, our job is to solve their problem.
- What people are looking for from a speaker is not a solution; they’re looking for clarity.
- Instead of going to an audience and saying: “Here’s the solution to your problem,” go to the audience who says: “Here is why the problem exists and why you need me.”
- As an introvert, I’d much rather be in front of an audience where I’m comfortable than at a party of 10 or 12 where I am less comfortable.
- I believe the audience needs to feel like they are understood.
“So, on that side of the business, speak to sell is where you get in front of an audience of targeted prospects, and you speak a certain way, and then they come up and hire you or buy your stuff from you. And the key there is for most people is that most people hate to sell. Most people really don’t like standing in front of an audience or even in front of a prospect and feel like a salesperson. So, when I say without selling, it means that there are techniques that one can use to generate business through the spoken word without feeling like you must have a shower afterward.” – STEVE
“We have this message that people need to hear, but having the message isn’t enough. It needs to be packaged in a way that people can receive the message openly and be able to apply it to their own lives. And so there are certain characteristics that I teach people to build into their message so that the audience can be open to receiving the message and to be able to receive it in a way that is relevant to them so that they can go forth and make change.” – STEVE
“And it’s difficult to break into that area. There are high barriers of entry, but anybody can learn to get in front of an audience, whether it’s live or virtual, and sell their products and services and make far more in a single presentation than they could ever make being paid by an association or a corporation. So, this is the way my wife and I do it. And you can, and I say you as a general you, pretty much anybody who puts a little bit of effort and thought into it can get in front of an audience and sell their products and services and generate enormous amounts of business through speaking if they know how to do it well. And that’s what we focus on, is teaching people how to do that. So that’s really the best way to make money speaking.” – STEVE
Connect with Steve Lowell:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Steve Lowell, a multi-award-winning speaker, three times number one bestselling author, and master trainer for high-impact speakers with a track record that speaks for itself. Having given over 3,500 keynote speeches, and 5,000 seminars and trained more than 500,000 speakers globally, Steve delivers innovative strategies that help speakers drive revenue from the stage and build wealth through speaking. As a main stage speaker at any event, Steve keeps audiences captivated, engaged, and entertained. He’s also a member and past president of the Global Speakers Federation. Welcome to the show, Steve. So, you’re going to teach us all about public speaking.
Steve Lowell: Peace. Oh, well, if that’s what you want to talk about, that’s, I’m happy to do that with you, Nancy. Thank you for inviting me. [1:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, that’s, you’re the expert here. And you know, I read somewhere that you believe speak to sell without selling. What do you mean by that?
Steve Lowell: So, let’s take the world of professional speaking, and break it down into two categories, two major categories. The first category would be the speak-for-fee category. And this is where most people think they want to play where this is where you go to an event, you speak, you get paid, you go home, you go to the next one, you speak, you get paid, you go and that’s how you earn your living. And so that’s what a lot of aspiring speakers dream of, and certainly that is available and it’s one way to go. And I played in that world for many years, but there’s this other side of the world, the other side of the speaking business that we call Speak to Sell. This is particularly valuable for people who have products or services that they’re marketing, and they use speaking to drive clients into that business. So, coaches, consultants, thought leaders, experts of all different kinds, or people who are you know, going into the act B of their life. And they’ve spent all these years amassing this knowledge and wisdom, and now they want to package it up and sell it. So, on that side of the business, speak to sell is where you get in front of an audience of targeted prospects and you speak a certain way, and then they come up and hire you or buy your stuff from you. And the key there is for most people is that most people hate to sell. Most people really don’t like standing in front of an audience or even in front of a prospect and feel like a salesperson. So, when I say without selling, it means that there are techniques that one can use to generate business through the spoken word without feeling like you must have a shower afterward. [3:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, how does someone become a transformational speaker?
Steve Lowell: So transformational speaker is obviously a very wide term, but from my perspective, a couple of things need to be in place. These items are not necessarily listed in order of priority, but somebody needs to have, first, a compelling message. I mean, a real message that people really need to hear. Usually, these messages come from experience, and it might be a major life experience, a major accomplishment, a major challenge, or something like that. So, we have this message that people need to hear, but having the message isn’t enough. It needs to be packaged in a way that people can receive the message openly and be able to apply it to their own lives. And so there are certain characteristics that I teach people to build into their message so that the audience can be open to receiving the message and to be able to receive it in a way that is relevant to them so that they can go forth and make change. [4:11]
Nancy Calabrese: So, what are some of the best ways to make money through speaking?
Steve Lowell: Sure, you know, speaking to Sal is the way I do it now. That’s the way I usually invite people and encourage people to go because you can go and speak for a fee, but you’re competing against celebrity-status individuals who command tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars per speech. And it’s difficult to break into that area. There are high barriers of entry, but anybody can learn to get in front of an audience, whether it’s live or virtual, and sell their products and services and make far more in a single presentation than they could ever make being paid by an association or a corporation. So, this is the way my wife and I do it. And you can, and I say you as a general you, pretty much anybody who puts a little bit of effort and thought into it can get in front of an audience and sell their products and services and generate enormous amounts of business through speaking if they know how to do it well. And that’s what we focus on, is teaching people how to do that. So that’s really the best way to make money speaking. [5:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so, why would so many people struggle to monetize when they speak? What’s holding them back?
Steve Lowell: And speak. Yeah, sure, thanks. And what’s holding them back, generally what I see is they simply don’t know how to do it. And it took me decades to figure this out, Nancy, because what I would do is I would get in front of an audience and my mindset was if I can give them tremendous value, if I can show them how awesome I am, if I can teach them something they can really use, if they walk away with crazy, unrealistic, unexpected value, then they’re going to want to hire me. And I was dead wrong about that. The reason why so many people struggle is because we’re under this misconception that when we get in front of an audience, our job is to solve their problem. That’s what I was doing. I was giving them everything that I thought they needed to know to go and solve their problem and wonder why they wouldn’t hire me because they were walking away either thinking they had everything they needed, or they were confused. And you know, a confused audience or a confused prospect never buys, never says yes. So, I had to learn that what people are looking for from a speaker is not a solution. What they’re looking for is clarity. And if we can give our audiences clarity around their problem and why the problem exists, then they’re more likely to come to us for help. So that is the biggest challenge that I see for aspiring speakers to sell their products and services from the stage. Even experienced speakers make this mistake. [6:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, I think what I’m hearing you say is you want to approach it as a thought leader, sharing information that could help them. Am I taking that the right way?
Steve Lowell: Yeah, you’re in the right direction for sure. And I’ll add to that to round it off. And that is, yes, you’re giving them information, but the information that we want to give is: this is the outcome we’re looking for. What we are looking for is to have the audience think like this. We want the audience to think: “Oh, now I understand why I have this problem. I’ve never thought of it like that before”. That’s our desired outcome. And so, we must craft our presentation very tactically and strategically to bring the audience to that particular outcome. Because what we tend to do is we tend to try and get our audience to an outcome where they think: “Okay, now I can solve my problem. This was awesome. This lady is amazing. Now I can go and solve my problem”. And if we get that outcome, then they’re never going to hire us. [7:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. How do you draw that out of your customers?
Steve Lowell: So, there are, okay, let me make sure I understand the question. Can you paraphrase the question for me?
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, let’s say I’m engaging your services and you’re going to help me write what I need to say. How are you going to get that from me?
Steve Lowell: Through enormous amounts of questioning and digging. When a customer or a client comes to me and asks me to help them do that, this is a major engagement. And what we do is we dig into your business deeper than you ever have. And so, a couple of things occur there. Number one is I encourage you and kind of guide you to disconnect from that which you already believe to be true. Because the first thing we need to do is detach from, from you know, we get so attached to our content and so attached to our message. We need to detach from that and look at it objectively because there’s gold in there that we often don’t see because we get too attached to what we’ve created. So that’s number one. We need to detach for a while from what we’ve created and look at it objectively. Then we go deep, deep, and instead of identifying the problem that you solve, what we need to do is identify what is causing that problem for your audience, for your market. Then we dig deep into those causes. And so instead of going to an audience and saying: “Here’s the solution to your problem”, we would go to the audience who says: “Here is why the problem exists and why you need me”. And so that’s the work. And sometimes it’s challenging, you know, Nancy, because, you know, I don’t have to tell this, you know this, we get attached to our stuff and we need to detach from it and look at it objectively. And sometimes what I’ll even do is I’ll challenge people to do this, and I did this, and I still do this, I try and disprove everything I know to be true. And the purpose is not to disprove it, but the purpose is to go through the exercise of trying to disprove it, because the things we learn, the perspectives that we uncover, and the wisdom that we find when we do that exercise can really be life-changing to our message. [10:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, you know, before we jumped on, you and I had a conversation about introverts. You’re an introvert. So am I. Actors are introverts. Why do they make great public speakers?
Steve Lowell: Not all of them do. No, not all of them do. But here’s my belief, you’re right, I’m an introvert. And if people are listening to this podcast, they’re not going to see introvert or hear introvert in my voice. If they see me on a stage or on a screen, they’re not going to see me introverted. But if they see me sitting at a social event, if they see me sitting at a restaurant, they’re going to see an introvert. And I think for me, I can only speak for myself on this, but I believe this is true for others as well. And that is, you know, as I was mentioning to you before the call when I’m on the stage or even right now in my studio speaking to you, this is my space. And I’m on a stage in front of, you know, maybe a thousand or 2000 people. It’s still my stage. It’s my place. And I’m here by myself. There just happens to be a whole bunch of people watching and listening. And I will engage the audience. I’m very good at engaging and getting them in conversation and activities and all those things, but it’s still my space. And if I’m in public, at a restaurant, at a networking event, at a chamber of commerce, or wherever we go. It’s not that I’m uncomfortable, but it’s not my space. And so, I don’t feel as free to be as self-expressive in those places. And so, I’d much rather be in front of an audience where I’m comfortable than at a party of 10 or 12 where I am less comfortable. [11:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, interesting. So, what are some of the myths that entrepreneurs believe that prevent them from making money when they speak?
Steve Lowell: Yeah, the biggest one is, and I really like that question because not that many people ask that question. I think the biggest myth is like the one that I fell victim to, Nancy. And the myth was, if I give them crazy, ridiculous value, if I teach them a whole bunch of great, amazing things, they’re going to love me and they’re going to want to buy from me. And I think here’s the extension of that myth is, you know the adage, Nancy, that says people buy from those they know, like, and trust. You’ve heard this, I’m sure.
Nancy Calabrese: Yes.
Steve Lowell: And this is a known truth in the world of sales. But the issue is I just don’t believe that it’s true. I don’t believe it’s complete. And the reason is, and I think it’s a myth, and the reason is this, there’s a lot of people in my life that I know, there’s a lot of people that I know and like, and there’s a lot of people that I know, like, and trust, and do services, offer services that are within my area of requirement, but I would never hire them for different reasons. [12:42]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Steve Lowell: Here’s what I believe must be in place before no like and trust. Number one is I believe the audience needs to feel like they are understood. They need to feel like, you know what, Nancy gets me. Nancy understands me, right? And I know Nancy and I like Nancy and I trust Nancy, but if I don’t think Nancy understands me, then we have an issue. So, I think that’s the first thing we need to address as speakers and as sales professionals in general. [13:10]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Steve Lowell: I get you; I understand you. So that’s number one. And then the next thing that needs to happen is the audience needs to feel like they can help me. You have the cookies, right? And I know people in my life who I know, like, and trust, but I just don’t think they have the skill level that I need for whatever project it is. So, these are two things that need to be in place before the know, like and trust thing ever rears its head. And so that’s one of the reasons I’m answering the question this way is because if I make the mistake that if they know me, I’ll tell them all about my background and my great formulas and my great history and all my great credentials and all that, then they’re going to know me. If they like me, I’ll make them laugh and I’ll be charming and funny. They’ll like me. And if I trust, if they get them to trust me because they like me, then they’re going to buy from me and generally, that’s not enough. [13:59]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, I think, you know, here, we always talk about, it’s about them, not about you. Yeah, and getting to know somebody is through a series of, you know, thoughtful questions and zoning in to, and listening to what they say. Very much so. Is there a story in your background that the audience might find interesting?
Steve Lowell: No, there are none. Now, I’m kidding. So, here’s one that I like to open up with. When I speak, I always open with this story and it’s obvious, it’s more visual, but I’m going to present it anyway. And I’ll ask you and your audience just to answer this question for yourself. If I said, are you or is somebody you know in the market for a tennis instructor? Then what I’ll do, and I do this everywhere, is I have, put up your hand if you or somebody you know is in the market for a tennis instructor. Now, generally how many hands did you think would go up? In an audience of 100 people, how many hands would go up, would you guess? [15:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Less than 10. Yup.
Steve Lowell: Yeah, like usually zero and maybe one. And I’ve done this with audiences all over the world and it’s always the same. So, then I tell the audience this, I say, okay, let’s say there are 100 people in the room, I’m going to guess that at least 30 of you, probably more, but at least 30 are either in the market for a tennis instructor right now, or you know somebody who is. And Nancy, I’m going to guess that if you’re not in the market for a tennis instructor, I’m going to guess that you know somebody who is. And so then of course the audience is thinking, well, how are you going to prove that? And so, I tell them about this guy named Brian and Brian came to me about 18 years ago and he says, he said: “Steve, I’m going to all the networking events, I’m meeting all the people, I’m shaking all the hands, I’m making all the phone calls”. He said: “I’m just not getting the business that I need”. And I said: “Well, Brian, what do you do?” He said: “I’m a tennis instructor”. [15:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Steve Lowell: And we see what the market is for tennis instructors. So, we taught Brian this fundamental principle, and the principle is this, every single time you speak in front of an audience, whether it’s an audience of one or an audience of a thousand, you are positioning yourself in one of two ways. There are only two and you’re only positioning yourself as one. And you’re either positioning yourself as somebody they need or somebody they don’t. And so, when Brian says: “I’m a tennis instructor”, he’s clearly positioning himself as somebody they don’t need. [16:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Steve Lowell: So, if you saw Brian today and you said, Brian, what do you do? He would say something like this. He would say, well, you know how sometimes kids get so much energy, they get so excited and they’re bouncing off the walls and they’re running around and making all kinds of noise. And he said, you know, the parents get so frustrated because they have no idea what to do with these kids. He’d say, well, what I do is I take kids of any age, I bring them to a tennis court. I absolutely exhaust them, and I hand them back to their parents. And then I asked the audience again, now put up your hand if you just might know somebody who just might be in the market for a tennis instructor. And suddenly, every hand in the place goes up and it goes up every single time. So, the reason that story is important is that, especially for my business as a speaker in this business, it demonstrates to the audience how just speaking differently can change the entire outcome from I’m not interested to tell me more, right? [17:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow.
Steve Lowell: And so that’s one of my favorite stories that I use because it demonstrates what I do so well, right? It demonstrates and the entire audience can see it. And I’ve had people come to me right after and say, I want a story like Brian. And of course, they hired me to do that. So, the reason I’m saying that is because for every person who’s listening to this message, what we need to understand is that the principle is the same. Every time we open our mouths about ourselves or our business, we are positioning ourselves as either somebody they need or somebody they don’t. And so, my job is to help people position themselves as somebody the audience needs. [18:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Love it. Last question? What is the takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Steve Lowell: You know, I think that would probably be the biggest takeaway for this. And I mean, there are many that I could choose, but the one that seems to have the most impact is that understanding. The understanding is that if I’m in front of any audience or any prospect if I’m doing the speaking, I’m positioning myself as either someone they need or someone they don’t. So, I darn well better know how to position myself as somebody they need. And that goes back to what you said, Nancy, about, you know what? It’s not even about me. It’s about the customer. It’s about the audience. It’s about the prospect. [18:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. How can my people find you?
Steve Lowell: The best way to find me is at my website: stevelowell.com. Everything is there.
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. What a fascinating discussion. And I do hope that you’ll take time in the future to join me again and peel away, you know, this, for me, it’s very scary to speak in front of audiences, and people are baffled because I’m so natural, I guess, on the phone. So, I think there’s some work that needs to be done and I want you to come back and help me. Is that okay?
Steve Lowell: Anytime, anytime.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, everyone, thank you, Steve, for spending some time with us and making it a great sales day. [19:34]
by Nancy Calabrese | Sep 26, 2023 | Podcast
About Rachel Cossar: Rachel Cossar is a leader in the field of nonverbal communication and leadership presence facilitation. As a former nationally ranked athlete and professional ballet dancer, Rachel has a knack of translating unique skills into relatable business skills and competencies. Virtual Sapiens comes as an evolution of Rachel’s combined work as founder of Choreography for Business, a nonverbal communication consulting firm as well as a faculty member with Mobius Executive Leadership and as a leadership presence facilitator with Ariel Group. Rachel has worked with leaders from GE, BCG, Pfizer, Accenture, McKinsey, HBS and more. With the increased dependency of video events as a way to connect and drive impact across organizations, Rachel and her team at Virtual Sapiens are excited to open up a world of access when it comes to one of the most human, and most important skills in business – communication. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Rachel.
In this episode, Nancy and Rachel discuss the following:
- Importance of self-reinvention.
- Mistakes that sellers make when they’re on video.
- The significance of video call backgrounds.
- The role of the background in the world of remote jobs.
- Non-verbal cues and behaviors that need to be mastered to be an effective communicator.
- Hand gesture etiquette on remote meetings.
- The hacks with lens and seat cushion and their role in making an impression.
- Rachel’s way to success.
Key Takeaways:
- There are transitions and changes around us all the time, whether we realize it or not.
- In the sales process, it’s more than making the sale, it’s about building the relationship and the rapport.
- The background speaks volumes about choices you’ve made or not made when you’ve decided to show up on video with the other person.
- Using hand gestures is a wonderful tool to create a sense of openness, warmth, of invitation.
- The importance of developing a new sense of muscle memory around the way we express ourselves on a screen.
“You know, I think a lot of us felt that or experienced that at some point during the pandemic and there tends to be, of course, fear around change and transition, but sometimes I find people turn to wherever they’re going next and forget where they came from.And so, in my experience, the process of reinventing myself, which I’ve done so many times, is always on the shoulders of these past identities I’ve had. And I think that concept is really fascinating and powerful.” – RACHEL
“Some of the top cues and behaviors that need to be mastered to be an effective communicator are posture, where you’re looking, how you use your eyes when you’re speaking, and as a listener. The way you use your hands and facial expressions. Those would be some of the top four non-verbal categories to be aware of. And on video, of course, all of them are very present. The one thing I’ll say as a caveat on video is the way you frame yourself is critical because if you are going to have your lens positioned such that we can only see the very top of your head, or we can’t see your face because you’re looking at a different screen and your lens is somewhere else like those are things that are just from the get-go, very detrimental to your presence because you’ve ruined the human connection that we can take advantage of on video.” – RACHEL
“Using hand gestures is a wonderful tool to create a sense of openness, warmth, of invitation. It helps people trust you more because they know that you are present with them, that you’re not fiddling around with some unseen phone or tablet or… animal or whatever, right? People like to see open-palm hand gestures. It’s very soothing. It’s very reassuring. So that’s number one. On the other end of the spectrum though, some people over-rely on hand gestures to communicate. And when the hand gestures are kind of waving around nonsensically and there’s not an intentional connection between the way hand gestures are being used and the words that are being communicated, hand gestures, in that case, can be distracting. So yeah, I mean, it’s all about, and then there’s like different types of when you’re touching your face with your hands, that can signal stress and anxiety and discomfort. And so, the way, what it really comes down to is developing a hand gesture vocabulary that supports the message you’re trying to send.” – RACHEL
Connect with Rachel Cossar:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today, and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Rachel Cossar, the CEO and co-founder of Virtual Sapiens, a machine learning SaaS platform that helps client-facing professionals develop and amplify their communication skills and presence in a virtual world. As a former professional ballet dancer and gymnast with unparalleled expertise in nonverbal communication and live performance, Rachel has a knack for translating unique skills into relatable business skills and competencies. Her thought leadership has been featured on the TEDx Northeastern stage, Harvard Business Review and the Boston Globe to name a few. And she’s worked with leaders such as G.E.M. Pfizer. Welcome to the show, Rachel. This is gonna be a great discussion. [1:18]
Rachel: Thank you, Nancy, for having me.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, my goodness. So, you talk a lot about reinvention. Why is that so important for all of us?
Rachel: Reinvention, it’s interesting. I find transitions and changes around us all the time, whether we realize it or not, but I also find that everyone is at some point in their lives, or maybe multiple times in their lives is going to have to face a pretty big transition. You know, I think a lot of us felt that or experienced that at some point during the pandemic and there tends to be, of course, fear around change and transition, but sometimes I find people turn to wherever they’re going next and forget where they came from. And so, in my experience, the process of reinventing myself, which I’ve done so many times, is always on the shoulders of these past identities I’ve had. And I think that concept is really fascinating and powerful. [2:20]
Nancy Calabrese: So, you basically are taking your prior experiences into your new experience when you reinvent yourself. Is that what you’re saying?
Rachel: Right.
Nancy Calabrese: Cool. So, you’re all about virtual selling and presentation, which is my world, by the way. And you talk about mistakes that sellers make when they’re on video, especially when it comes to their… What do you mean by that?
Rachel: Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting because we’ve video was really activated during the pandemic. And during the pandemic, it was just about showing up, and having your video turned on was a bonus, right? Because few of us had much choice in where we were connecting from because there were so few choices we had at that time. And now that we’re evolving out of the pandemic, and video continues to be a primary channel of connection with our prospects and clients, there’s a big gap I find in the education and awareness around some of the messages we may be sending when we show up on video. Specifically, if you think about these squares of real estate we have on video, they accentuate some of the most expressive parts of ourselves, our faces, our upper bodies, our shoulders, the way we move our heads, our hand gestures if we’re framed properly and you can see those. All those components of visual communication can send a very powerful message of preparedness and respect and perceive trustworthiness and authority, or they can really undermine those things, right? And we both know that in the selling or sales relationship, you know, it’s more than making… the sale, it’s about building the relationship and the rapport. And a lot of that can be made or not over video. [4:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, I’m often surprised at the backgrounds some people use or, you know, or in when they do video. How does that impact, you know, a potential customer?
Rachel: Definitely. The background speaks volumes about choices you’ve made or not made when you’ve decided to show up on video with this other person, right? And I think it’s very easy to become… to almost forget… what, or to get used to the background you have, right? And the background you have becomes very normal and you don’t pick up on little details that someone who’s seeing the background for the first time will be like, oh, like what is that thing there in the corner? And oh, that ceiling fan is just going round and round. And every time I think it’s going to biff them in the head, or these little distractions of an unintentional background can require mental energy from your audience, that would be better on your message. [5:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, distractions are exactly, you’re right. Well, you know, in my space, you’re not seeing this, but I have a huge picture of Paul McCartney. He’s, my idol. And it is, he is an icebreaker though, I must say, for a lot of people. And I’m shocked some people don’t even know who it is. So, well, go figure. Okay, you talk about nonverbal cues and behaviors that need to be mastered to be an effective communicator. What are some of the top ones? [6:12]
Rachel: Definitely. Some of the top ones are posture, where you’re looking, how you use your eyes when you’re speaking, and as a listener. The way you use your hands and facial expressions. Those would be some of the top four non-verbal categories to be aware of. And on video, of course, all of them are very present. The one thing I’ll say as a caveat on video is the way you frame yourself is critical because if you are going to have your lens positioned such that we can only see the very top of your head, or we can’t see your face because you’re looking at a different screen and your lens is somewhere else like those are things that are just from the get-go, very detrimental to your presence because you’ve ruined the human connection that we can take advantage of on video. [7:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, talk more about hand gestures though. What do you mean by that? Because I talk with my hands.
Rachel: Yeah, definitely. Hand gestures are a fascinating category of non-verbal because it’s quite rich. And yes, using hand gestures is a wonderful tool to create a sense of openness, warmth, of invitation. It helps people trust you more because they know that you are present with them, that you’re not fiddling around with some unseen phone or tablet or… animal or whatever, right? People like to see open-palm hand gestures. It’s very soothing. It’s very reassuring. So that’s number one. On the other end of the spectrum though, some people over-rely on hand gestures to communicate. And when the hand gestures are kind of waving around nonsensically and there’s not an intentional connection between the way hand gestures are being used and the words that are being communicated, hand gestures, in that case, can be distracting. [8:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Rachel: So yeah, I mean, it’s all about, and then there’s like different types of when you’re touching your face with your hands, that can signal stress and anxiety and discomfort. And so, the way, what it really comes down to is developing a hand gesture vocabulary that supports the message you’re trying to send.
Nancy Calabrese: Right, yeah. Now, when we first got into COVID, I met with this woman who used to do broadcasting. One of the tricks that, tips she gave me was to buy a seat cushion to raise myself up. So, I’m looking square in the camera. Is that something that you recommend as well?
Rachel: Yes, whether it’s a seat cushion or propping, sometimes people need to prop their lens up a little bit higher so that they’re not looking down on the camera. The lens is like the other person or it’s like your audience’s eyes, right? It’s their vantage point. If you investigate the lens, you’re looking directly into their faces. And so, the way you orient around the lens is important. And that the level of the lens, making it easy for you to investigate the lens when you’re speaking increases your authority. Little hacks like that really go a long way. [9:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, and you know, it’s interesting what she taught me was I wasn’t looking at the camera. I was looking at her on Zoom. And so, I was looking down. So, I’m glad that she pointed that out to me. Okay, AI is big news nowadays. So how does that come into the equation with what you do?
Rachel: AI is central to what we do at Virtual Sapiens. So, all those nonverbal cues that I just mentioned, we’ve trained our AI to recognize. And so, when you’re interacting with any of our solutions, our AI will analyze your video feed and then provide you with personalized feedback on how you were showing up throughout that video recording or video meeting and provide you with suggestions on how you might level up your presence essentially. [10:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I’m just curious. So, I know your background is ballerina and gymnast. How did you wind up in this role and this, you know, being the owner of this company?
Rachel: Yes, through a series of reinventions, full circle back to the beginning of the conversation. But it does sound like a drastic leap, but when you follow the thread, it makes sense. I retired from Boston Ballet after dancing with the company for 10 years in 2016 and started working at Harvard in their fundraising department, which is heavy on relationships. And I noticed that there was a general lack of awareness when it came to the way people were showing up physically, their body language, their presence. And so, because of this like dancer spider-sense, right, as a dancer, you’re performing, and you only use your body to communicate. There are no words. And so I had this like nonverbal communication sensibility already and so I started studying the field and the different applications of it in restaurants, with sales teams, leaders, et cetera, started consulting in that space in my own right, but then also as a facilitator with other companies. And then when the pandemic happened, I was just like, if we’re going to be on video, we can use technology to our advantage here. [11:43]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow. And so, going back to AI, what do we need to be wary of when we use AI?
Rachel: In this application, right, so AI as a coach, and when the AI is analyzing your behaviors, whether they’re verbal, nonverbal, or vocal, the thing to really pay attention to is, where is the science behind the insights that are being shared? Have these metrics and insights, are they backed up by the most recent science and peer-reviewed research? Um, that’s one thing I would say is important to just confirm because it’s easy like information’s everywhere these days. And so, what you might see, for example, is, oh, this, um, AI coach over here will tell me how many times I’ve smiled. And it’s like, so what? Like, you know, like how is there, is there a study somewhere that says if you smile 15 times in a one-hour meeting that somehow has. You know, it’s like, it can’t be reduced to such a specific arbitrary number. Right? So, at Virtual Sapiens, we look at facial expression variation or expressivity, because we know when people engage with their facial muscles, in whatever way, it could be a surprise, shock, anger, frustration, happiness, or sadness. It depends on the context, which emotions make sense. So, we’re not going to tell you how to… how to feel or what to express, but we will tell you if you’re coming across as completely monotonous with your expressions. [13:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, funny, something I learned as well. When I listen to people over, say, a Zoom environment, my mouth droops. And so, I have to make a concerted effort to kind of keep my mouth from drooping. I was not aware of that.
Rachel: Right, right. I mean, that’s a perfect example of our habits on screens are a little, when it comes to the way we engage with a screen, we tend to be more passive, right? When we’re watching a movie, we just sit there and watch it. But now we’re having these human interactions that are alive with other human beings. And so, we must almost develop a new sense of muscle memory around the way we express ourselves on a screen. [14:09]
Nancy Calabrese: This is fascinating stuff. Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Rachel: I mean, let’s see, I think that video, when used well, both in the sense of when the human who’s on video is skilled and aware and can communicate effectively and when the video is the proper channel to use is one of the most powerful ways that as humans we can connect.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. And, you know, in wrapping up the show, what is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Rachel: I would say for all the audience members, the next time you are on a video call, which I would assume is soon, pay attention to not only some of the ways you are showing up, right? But how other people are showing up and whether you’re able to sense that they’ve had some kind of training or practice or put some real effort into the way they’re showing up as communicators. Or if they’re kind of… just turning the camera on to show that there’s a human on the other side. [15:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, one final thought before we wrap this up. Matching and mirroring is so important. What do you have to say about that?
Rachel: Yes, fascinating. So, one of our advisors who is a behavioral scientist, did her whole thesis on mirroring and mimicry. She started her thesis before the pandemic and then had to finish it during the pandemic and found that over the video, that same concept of a conversation when there’s synchrony in the conversation, people will mirror one another’s behaviors. That kind of behavioral concept is very present on video, which is fascinating because you would think that maybe the channel’s not strong enough but turns out that it is. [16:16]
Nancy Calabrese: I think it’s crucial in the sales process to use your nonverbal cues, as you’ve mentioned, and really listen in, and by listening in, like very often when I’m deep in listening, I kind of lean forward to make sure I’m getting everything. At the end of the day, I love what you do. I told you; you have such an interesting story. How can my audience find you?
Rachel: I’m most easily found on LinkedIn. So just Rachel Cossar on LinkedIn. Would love to connect with anyone who’s interested in speaking further. And our tools, anyone can try our assessment or Sidekick Coach for free on our website. So that’s virtualsapiens.co, C-O. [17:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, very good. And everyone, I really recommend you go to Rachel’s website and listen to her TEDx speech. It was fabulous. And it kept my attention for the whole time. It was great. So, Rachel, thanks for being here. I enjoyed speaking with you. I hope that we can continue this down the road and everyone has a great sales day.
Rachel: Thank you. [17:39]
by Nancy Calabrese | Sep 15, 2023 | Podcast
About Michael Harris: Michael Harris is a multi-talented individual with an incredible gift for empowering others. Whether you’re looking to take care of your health, share your story with the world, or build a thriving business, Michael has the expertise to guide you to success. With multiple bestselling books under his belt, Michael is the real deal regarding coaching, training, and entrepreneurship. He’s dedicated to helping people from all walks of life share their message and make a real impact. Michael started a yoga practice in 1987 due to a near-fatal health condition. In the early 90’s, he began teaching and has never stopped. Michael truly believes that nature holds the key to living our best lives. It’s just a matter of learning how to apply what you already know so you can have better health, share your message, and live the life of an entrepreneur. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Michael.
In this episode, Nancy and Michael discuss the following:
- The reasons why people have preconceived limitations.
- Podcasting as a powerful marketing source.
- Michael recommends how anyone can get their message, story, and voice out to the world.
- Michael’s first experience as an entrepreneur with pies.
- Tips to overcome the resistance to speak in front of others.
- Michaels’s thoughts on human conversation and AI: could one substitute another?
- Advice on how to react when you have nothing to say but need to support a conversation.
Key Takeaways:
- We don’t believe that we are good enough or that we really have the skills to do something when, in fact, it could be there; it’s just buried.
- We all know WIIFM, which is “what’s in it for me,” so the other person needs to know what’s in it for them to have an eager watch.
- Asking you questions about yourself helps me know who you are more, and I feel more connected that way.
- A system creates a tremendous amount of freedom in so many ways.
- You already have everything you need, and it’s just a matter of learning how to use it.
“ What it was like when you were in grade school? Perhaps first or second grade, maybe even kindergarten, and the teacher said “Now it’s show-and-tell time. Michael, can you get up and, you know, show us your new rock that you found today?” And so, I get up and I’m all excited to talk about this rock and I found it and it was on the ground, but somebody had painted it, it was all these colors and all this stuff. So, show-and-tell is really a tricky way that the teacher had a tricky way, so to speak, to get us to speak in front of other people and tell other people something, show-and-tell. So, we’ve already got that skill in us. So, as we get older, though, we tend to forget about that. And that tends to kind of go away a little bit. But like, when I start to work with people, one of the things that I really invite them to do is to look at those things they’ve already learned in their life, and then enhance that. So, show-and-tell would be an example of how a salesperson can get better by show-and-tell. Because essentially that’s what it is. It’s, you know, there’s all these different ways to sell, but it really comes back to show and tell when we get on a podcast. Now it may be just an audio, but we’re show and telling with our ears and our eyes and everything else.” – MICHAEL
“When I was growing up, imagine this, we had a couple of acres and in the back property, we had a bunch of blackberries. My dad was an entrepreneur, and he always says, “You know, find something somebody wants to buy and sell it to them.” Well, I’d go out there and pick the blackberries and my mom would make pies and all the neighborhood kids would come over and eat Mrs. Harris’s pies. You know, I thought about this and what Dad was saying about selling, things that people want. And I was a 6-year-old boy and I said, Mom, “Let’s do this. Let me pick a bunch of pies. You bake them and then I’ll go and sell them.” – MICHAEL
“I teach yoga and I teach a system. You do A, B, C, D, posture, and then this happens. Nature teaches us systems. The planting of a tree is a system. You put a seed in the ground, you water it, starts to grow, and you trim it. You do all these different things. There’s a system to create a nice, healthy tree. And in this, in a sales process, it’s the same thing. And you know this way better than I do, but it’s like, there’s a system that you use to help bring a solution to your client or your prospect.” – MICHAEL
Connect with Michael Harris:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
by Nancy Calabrese | Sep 11, 2023 | Podcast
About Denise Cagan: Denise Cagan is the Founder of DCA Virtual Business Support. Her company offers VASuperheros, social media management, graphic design, and website support for growing businesses. Denise Cagan started her first company while still working as a QA Manager at Coca-Cola. After a year of doing both, she moved on to become a full-time business owner at DiCi Services. She grew DiCi for 10 years, selling it in 2011. At that time, Denise established a second and third company. Only one of these remains today which is her current business. She attributes her success in navigating the business world to her strong operational and management style and being an incredible business advisor. Denise graduated from James Madison University with a BS in Quality Systems Development. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Denise.
In this episode, Nancy and Denise discuss the following:
- Denise’s definition of a VA superhero.
- Recognizing the undervalued role of virtual assistants in sales.
- Overcoming entrepreneurial fear: transitioning from offline to remote business.
- Exploring accountability methods for successful remote work.
- The rewards of having a remote staff.
- Reviewing potential pitfalls associated with remote work.
- The advantages to the business owner of having a remote staff.
Key Takeaways:
- In the world of Executive Assistant, KPIs are a little bit hard to come up with.
- When you’re doing it by yourself, it’s so much simpler, but when you have a team, it becomes less simple.
- We have mental health benefits because, without that, I’m sure you know that if people aren’t doing well outside of work, they’re going to carry that into work.
- When people come to us for services, when they try to negotiate less than our six-month minimum, they’re not fit, and I try to very politely tell them that they’re not.
- Keep asking questions.
“ VA has a few names that people recognize: virtual assistant, executive assistant, virtual executive assistant, virtual office assistant. A VA superhero is somebody who comes in and basically takes things off the plate of a business owner, a CEO, the president of the company, or someone in the C-suite. So, you’re busy, you’ve got day-to-day things going on, and as you are a small business and you start growing, those to-do things become more. And that’s exactly what these people do for you. Take those off your plate.” – DENISE
“We have had to guide team members on how to maximize their time. We have a very flexible schedule first off, okay, so, and we use a system for them to clock their time, so we know their time down to the second. So, one of the things is that they sometimes feel like they need to be on all the time. We explain to them, no, that’s the purpose of having a flexible schedule. We don’t expect you to respond in three minutes to an email because part of the prep we do is explaining to people what the response time would be. So, prepping them, and that seems like such a small thing, but that really, really goes to how they just manage their day. And if they’re starting to feel burnt out because they feel like they’re having to be on for all day, they’re only paid for the hours they work, that’s, you’re going to have a lot of turnover.” – DENISE
“The thing is that you have to be a good communicator and a good listener. It goes with anything. You have to be willing to have even the tough conversations, the ones that are not easy. Because sometimes you need to dig in and find out what they’re not telling you. I know you can relate to that. And I know that because you do Conversational Selling and it’s the “Who, What, Why” digging in and finding out the pain points. It’s the same thing for your team members.” – DENISE
Connect with Denise Cagan:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Denise Kagan, the Founder of DCA Virtual Business Support. Denise was running a virtual workforce at DCA before COVID forced most companies to do so. Her company offers VA superheroes, social media management, graphic design and website support for growing businesses. Denise is also the host of Nurture Small Business, where she shares small business growth ideas, survival strategies and stories of how women entrepreneurs creatively nurture your businesses for success. Welcome to the show, Denise. Let’s get started. [1:09]
Denise Cagan: Absolutely, I’m excited to be here, Nancy.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, and what I was saying before we start, Denise and I live in the same world. My business is remote. Denise is the expert on remote. So, I’m going to really pick her brain in this conversation. But let’s, for starters, what’s your definition of a VA superhero?
Denise Cagan: Ah, okay. So, VA has a few names that people recognize: Virtual assistant, executive assistant, virtual executive assistant, virtual office assistant. So just with that said, a VA superhero is somebody who comes in and basically takes things off the plate of a business owner, a CEO, the president of the company, or someone in the C-suite. So, you’re busy, you’ve got day-to-day things going on, and as you are a small business and you start growing, those to-do things become more. And that’s exactly what these people do for you. Take those off your plate. [2:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, superheroes.
Denise Cagan: Superheroes.
Nancy Calabrese: We probably don’t give them as much credit as we should, don’t you think?
Denise Cagan: I think that’s possibly true. Yes, I think it is. We’ve got something and this goes to, you know, the remote team and motivating them. We do something called shout outs and friays where we’re constantly looking for where our team members have gone above and beyond. And we do, it’s a public forum where we shout them out in front of the whole company.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, I totally agree with that approach. And the world of remote has been my world, as I said, for many years. And yet I was reluctant to take the leap, as I think many are. Why is that?
Denise Cagan: Uncertainty causes anxiety, simply put. The fear of the unknown, How is this going to work? At the time when I went into that space, which was right around 2013 – 2014, there were a lot of unanswered questions. And, when you’re doing it by yourself, it’s so much simpler. But when you have a team, it becomes less simple. Now you must not only worry about cybersecurity, but what other people are doing. And if it’s not a company-provided computer, then you’re also having to worry about what they’re doing on their own personal computer, which could impact your work. So, there’s a lot of things, you know, there has to be a trust factor built up, there has that cybersecurity is taken into account. And then systems, what systems will you use? In an office setting, those things seem to come more naturally, even though they’re not much different remotely. [3:58]
Nancy Calabrese: I think my biggest fear was loss of control. Like I couldn’t visually see my people working. And so, let’s pivot to, like what kinds of accountability methods do you recommend if you’re going to go remote or doing remote work?
Denise Cagan: So, there are a couple of different things you could do. First, in the world of Executive Assistant, KPIs are a little bit hard to come up with. You know, you have time, you have money, and they don’t deal with the money piece of it. So, then you have accuracy, okay? And they do so many different tasks that it’s almost impossible to measure accuracy. How do you measure the hundreds of tasks they do? And then the one or two that they might goof on? Okay? [4:52]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Denise Cagan: So, there is that. So, part of what we do, and I’m not saying to ditch the KPIs because if you’re creative enough, depending upon what you do, and for businesses like sales, if you’re running a sales center, or if you have a graphic design where there are specific deliverables, that is much easier to measure. Okay?
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Denise Cagan: So, when it’s a known subset of output that’s very consistent and doesn’t change definitely go with the KPIs. But beyond that, constant contact with the client. How are we doing? What can we do better? What did we do that you didn’t like so much? What did we do that we should never stop doing? [5:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. But you know, what could some of the pitfalls be with remote work?
Denise Cagan: We have had to guide team members on how to maximize their time. We have a very flexible schedule first off, okay, so, and we use a system for them to clock their time, so we know their time down to the second. So, one of the things is that they sometimes feel like they need to be on all the time. We explain to them, no, that’s the purpose of having a flexible schedule. We don’t expect you to respond in three minutes to an email because part of the prep we do is explaining to people what the response time would be. So, prepping them, and that seems like such a small thing, but that really, really goes to how they just manage their day. And if they’re starting to feel burnt out because they feel like they’re having to be on for all day, they’re only paid for the hours they work, that’s, you’re going to have a lot of turnovers. [6:42]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. What system do you use to clock the time?
Denise Cagan: So, we are currently using Clockify which we have used Toggle in the past.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. And what is it called again? Clockify?
Denise Cagan: Clockify. Mm-hmm.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, I never heard of that. Okay.
Denise Cagan: Yes, Clockify offers a free version. So, we switched there to save a couple hundred dollars a month. That was a no-brainer.
Nancy Calabrese: And, and, you know, let’s again, turn it around. What are the rewards of having a remote staff?
Denise Cagan: They can take their kids to the park in the afternoon if they’re caring for an elder, which we have some people who have both newborns and elders that they’re caring for. They have the time to take them to their doctor’s appointments, fix meals for them, and do the things that they need to do. So, there’s a lot of rewards to it. We have a very almost family-like community here. We care about our people and so. We do a couple of different things like we have mental health benefits because without that, I’m sure you know that if people aren’t doing well outside of work, they’re going to carry that into work. [7:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Denise Cagan: It’s only on rare occasions that somebody doesn’t carry that into work. And vice versa, if they’re not doing well here, they’re going to carry it home. So, we know it goes both ways. So, we do some of that as well. We have weekly. weekly, monthly, and regular touch points for various different things that we do. As a matter of fact, we had an all-team meeting today. Just, and we try very, very hard to be transparent. You know, one of the things we rolled out today as a matter of fact, was what we call a critical skills matrix. And we’re, you know, we talked to the team and told them, you know, we’ve been working on this for months. It seems like it’s taken us forever, but the purpose is to align us with our clients more closely based on what they’re asking us and what they’re expecting us to do, and then to make sure that we’re also hiring for this. So, they ask, well, what if we don’t have those skills? Well, that’s what we’re going to do gap analysis and figure out what we need to do to get you up there. [8:51]
Nancy Calabrese: What about the rewards to the business owner of having a remote staff?
Denise Cagan: So, you know, there’s some obvious like you don’t have to pay for an office space.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. True.
Denise Cagan: Okay, that’s probably the biggest, biggest one. But the same flexibilities that I told you about where if you have to care for an elder or if you have to care for a newborn, those exist for the business owner too. I take off a little bit earlier every Friday to go pick up my granddaughter from daycare. [9:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. And so how do you best manage an outsourced team? What’s your advice?
Denise Cagan: Well, the thing is that you have to be a good communicator and a good listener, okay? It goes with anything. You have to find out, you have to be willing to have even the tough conversations, the ones that are not easy, okay? Because sometimes you need to dig in and find out what… what they’re not telling you. I know you can relate to that. An example, for instance, we recently had one of our team members who told us that they wanted to train as a junior designer. And so, then we brought out the job description like, this is what this person does. Where are you on the spectrum with this? And then they suddenly realized that wasn’t what they wanted. And so, we’re working with the person, and my gut feeling is that They want some challenge, but they also want higher pay is my gut feeling. And so, getting them to open up about what it is they’re really trying to accomplish is part of the process. And I know that because you do Conversational Selling this is, it’s the Who, What, Why, digging in and finding out the pain points. It’s the same thing for your team members. [10:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Absolutely, and you know it’s so funny you bring that up because we talk constantly about the pain that we’re often given isn’t the real pain. The way to uncover the real pain is to ask good questions listen and let them talk about it. Very interesting. You know my people love stories, Denise. Share a story that you think the audience might find interesting.
Denise Cagan: Ah, you caught me off guard on this one. Okay, I got it. So, I do. So, I have a long-term employee who’s been with me for quite some time. And when she came aboard, okay, first, she is a person who does not like to change. It’s like, I like it this way, and I like it this way, and I still like it this way, and I don’t want it to change, even if you give me 10,000 reasons. So, she’s been with me since 2014. So, she came on and she came on very part-time, wouldn’t leave her other job because she didn’t feel comfortable, didn’t feel like she’d get enough hours. I asked her several times, and I created a position for her that was unique, and she decided, you know, she was just very hem hot along the way. And I was like, okay, this doesn’t sound like it’s the right thing for you, the right time. Let’s just, you know, take that off the table. But she continued working here. There was no animosity or anything. It just… I recognize when, even if it’s an opportunity for a team member, if they’re not fit for it, I have that conversation with them, you know? [12:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Denise Cagan: And the times when I’ve done it, they’ve opened up and go, you know, you’re absolutely right. I don’t like this or that or whatever. So fast forwarding that just a little bit, she has now become my operations manager. She has gone through so many iterations here, you know, moving up the chain and suddenly, her eyes opening and going, wow, this is what this is. And, you know, just it’s so cool to watch her when the light bulbs come on and she realizes what that previous layer was about and what it was teaching her to do on this next piece of the journey. So, it’s been fantastic. And she’s told me recently that she is enjoying this change. I thought I was going to fall on the floor. [13:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, listen, a big bravo to you. It’s your coaching that kept encouraging her, I guess keeps encouraging her. Great job.
Denise Cagan: Thank you.
Nancy Calabrese: Tell me something true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Denise Cagan: I wouldn’t say that nobody agrees with me on this, but I have had to draw a hard line in the sand because some people don’t agree with me on this. When people come to us for services, when they try to negotiate less than our six-month minimum, they’re not a fit, and I try to very politely tell them that they’re not. And the reason why is that they’re not actually committed. If I know I’m giggling because I know you know this, but I had to have this conversation recently with somebody I’ve known for two decades.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow.
Denise Cagan: You know, and it was really hard because they kept trying to renegotiate the terms. And while I do have some flexibility to do some things, everything that they were giving me was a signal that they were not going to be a good fit. [14:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Now, this person, they were a client of yours for decades, or they wanted to?
Denise Cagan: No, I’ve just, well, they were a client of mine in a prior business, yes.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, OK. Yeah. You know, I can, I’m giggling. I get that question all the time. And we’re sticklers for six months minimum terms. Otherwise, to me, you’re wasting your money. You’re not going to see the results.
Denise Cagan: Exactly. You won’t see the ROI. You’re already telling me you’re you would just want to kick the tires a little bit. You’re not committed to a partnership to make this work. [15:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, definitely. And so how can my audience reach you?
Denise Cagan: They can visit my website. It’s DCAvirtual.com. Really straightforward. There’s a contact form on there. Also on the contact page, you can schedule a direct call with me if you just want to chat with me. That works too.
Nancy Calabrese: Cool. And are you industry agnostic?
Denise Cagan: Correct, we are.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. And, you know, I know that when I introduced everyone to you, it sounds like you work primarily with women entrepreneurs. Do you work with male entrepreneurs?
Denise Cagan: We do, we do work with everyone. We have engineering firms, we have some executive coaches, both male and female. Yeah, we do. It’s just that my podcast actually focuses specifically on female entrepreneurs. [16:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Got it, got it. And then last question, what is one takeaway you wanna leave the audience with?
Denise Cagan: Keep asking questions. Sometimes what people tell you is not, like I mentioned before, keep asking those questions and they can be very simple questions. My team and I just read the book, “Who?” And the questions are literally the who, what, when, where, how, tell me more.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, yeah. Great insight. And for everyone out there, if you’re thinking of remote and you have some concerns about it, pick up the phone. Give Denise a call. She’s the expert to go to. So, thank you so much for spending time with me and the audience today, Denise. And for everyone out there, make it an awesome sales day.
Denise Cagan: Thank you, Nancy. [17:04]
