About Rachel Cossar: Rachel Cossar is a leader in the field of nonverbal communication and leadership presence facilitation. As a former nationally ranked athlete and professional ballet dancer, Rachel has a knack of translating unique skills into relatable business skills and competencies. Virtual Sapiens comes as an evolution of Rachel’s combined work as founder of Choreography for Business, a nonverbal communication consulting firm as well as a faculty member with Mobius Executive Leadership and as a leadership presence facilitator with Ariel Group. Rachel has worked with leaders from GE, BCG, Pfizer, Accenture, McKinsey, HBS and more. With the increased dependency of video events as a way to connect and drive impact across organizations, Rachel and her team at Virtual Sapiens are excited to open up a world of access when it comes to one of the most human, and most important skills in business – communication. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Rachel.
In this episode, Nancy and Rachel discuss the following:
- Importance of self-reinvention.
- Mistakes that sellers make when they’re on video.
- The significance of video call backgrounds.
- The role of the background in the world of remote jobs.
- Non-verbal cues and behaviors that need to be mastered to be an effective communicator.
- Hand gesture etiquette on remote meetings.
- The hacks with lens and seat cushion and their role in making an impression.
- Rachel’s way to success.
Key Takeaways:
- There are transitions and changes around us all the time, whether we realize it or not.
- In the sales process, it’s more than making the sale, it’s about building the relationship and the rapport.
- The background speaks volumes about choices you’ve made or not made when you’ve decided to show up on video with the other person.
- Using hand gestures is a wonderful tool to create a sense of openness, warmth, of invitation.
- The importance of developing a new sense of muscle memory around the way we express ourselves on a screen.
“You know, I think a lot of us felt that or experienced that at some point during the pandemic and there tends to be, of course, fear around change and transition, but sometimes I find people turn to wherever they’re going next and forget where they came from.And so, in my experience, the process of reinventing myself, which I’ve done so many times, is always on the shoulders of these past identities I’ve had. And I think that concept is really fascinating and powerful.” – RACHEL
“Some of the top cues and behaviors that need to be mastered to be an effective communicator are posture, where you’re looking, how you use your eyes when you’re speaking, and as a listener. The way you use your hands and facial expressions. Those would be some of the top four non-verbal categories to be aware of. And on video, of course, all of them are very present. The one thing I’ll say as a caveat on video is the way you frame yourself is critical because if you are going to have your lens positioned such that we can only see the very top of your head, or we can’t see your face because you’re looking at a different screen and your lens is somewhere else like those are things that are just from the get-go, very detrimental to your presence because you’ve ruined the human connection that we can take advantage of on video.” – RACHEL
“Using hand gestures is a wonderful tool to create a sense of openness, warmth, of invitation. It helps people trust you more because they know that you are present with them, that you’re not fiddling around with some unseen phone or tablet or… animal or whatever, right? People like to see open-palm hand gestures. It’s very soothing. It’s very reassuring. So that’s number one. On the other end of the spectrum though, some people over-rely on hand gestures to communicate. And when the hand gestures are kind of waving around nonsensically and there’s not an intentional connection between the way hand gestures are being used and the words that are being communicated, hand gestures, in that case, can be distracting. So yeah, I mean, it’s all about, and then there’s like different types of when you’re touching your face with your hands, that can signal stress and anxiety and discomfort. And so, the way, what it really comes down to is developing a hand gesture vocabulary that supports the message you’re trying to send.” – RACHEL
Connect with Rachel Cossar:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachel-cossar
- Virtual Sapiens: https://www.virtualsapiens.co/
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/oneofakindsales
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/One-Of-A-Kind-Sales-304978633264832/
- Website: https://oneofakindsales.com
- Phone: 908-879-2911
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ncalabrese/
- Email: leads@oneofakindsales.com
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today, and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Rachel Cossar, the CEO and co-founder of Virtual Sapiens, a machine learning SaaS platform that helps client-facing professionals develop and amplify their communication skills and presence in a virtual world. As a former professional ballet dancer and gymnast with unparalleled expertise in nonverbal communication and live performance, Rachel has a knack for translating unique skills into relatable business skills and competencies. Her thought leadership has been featured on the TEDx Northeastern stage, Harvard Business Review and the Boston Globe to name a few. And she’s worked with leaders such as G.E.M. Pfizer. Welcome to the show, Rachel. This is gonna be a great discussion. [1:18]
Rachel: Thank you, Nancy, for having me.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, my goodness. So, you talk a lot about reinvention. Why is that so important for all of us?
Rachel: Reinvention, it’s interesting. I find transitions and changes around us all the time, whether we realize it or not, but I also find that everyone is at some point in their lives, or maybe multiple times in their lives is going to have to face a pretty big transition. You know, I think a lot of us felt that or experienced that at some point during the pandemic and there tends to be, of course, fear around change and transition, but sometimes I find people turn to wherever they’re going next and forget where they came from. And so, in my experience, the process of reinventing myself, which I’ve done so many times, is always on the shoulders of these past identities I’ve had. And I think that concept is really fascinating and powerful. [2:20]
Nancy Calabrese: So, you basically are taking your prior experiences into your new experience when you reinvent yourself. Is that what you’re saying?
Rachel: Right.
Nancy Calabrese: Cool. So, you’re all about virtual selling and presentation, which is my world, by the way. And you talk about mistakes that sellers make when they’re on video, especially when it comes to their… What do you mean by that?
Rachel: Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting because we’ve video was really activated during the pandemic. And during the pandemic, it was just about showing up, and having your video turned on was a bonus, right? Because few of us had much choice in where we were connecting from because there were so few choices we had at that time. And now that we’re evolving out of the pandemic, and video continues to be a primary channel of connection with our prospects and clients, there’s a big gap I find in the education and awareness around some of the messages we may be sending when we show up on video. Specifically, if you think about these squares of real estate we have on video, they accentuate some of the most expressive parts of ourselves, our faces, our upper bodies, our shoulders, the way we move our heads, our hand gestures if we’re framed properly and you can see those. All those components of visual communication can send a very powerful message of preparedness and respect and perceive trustworthiness and authority, or they can really undermine those things, right? And we both know that in the selling or sales relationship, you know, it’s more than making… the sale, it’s about building the relationship and the rapport. And a lot of that can be made or not over video. [4:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, I’m often surprised at the backgrounds some people use or, you know, or in when they do video. How does that impact, you know, a potential customer?
Rachel: Definitely. The background speaks volumes about choices you’ve made or not made when you’ve decided to show up on video with this other person, right? And I think it’s very easy to become… to almost forget… what, or to get used to the background you have, right? And the background you have becomes very normal and you don’t pick up on little details that someone who’s seeing the background for the first time will be like, oh, like what is that thing there in the corner? And oh, that ceiling fan is just going round and round. And every time I think it’s going to biff them in the head, or these little distractions of an unintentional background can require mental energy from your audience, that would be better on your message. [5:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, distractions are exactly, you’re right. Well, you know, in my space, you’re not seeing this, but I have a huge picture of Paul McCartney. He’s, my idol. And it is, he is an icebreaker though, I must say, for a lot of people. And I’m shocked some people don’t even know who it is. So, well, go figure. Okay, you talk about nonverbal cues and behaviors that need to be mastered to be an effective communicator. What are some of the top ones? [6:12]
Rachel: Definitely. Some of the top ones are posture, where you’re looking, how you use your eyes when you’re speaking, and as a listener. The way you use your hands and facial expressions. Those would be some of the top four non-verbal categories to be aware of. And on video, of course, all of them are very present. The one thing I’ll say as a caveat on video is the way you frame yourself is critical because if you are going to have your lens positioned such that we can only see the very top of your head, or we can’t see your face because you’re looking at a different screen and your lens is somewhere else like those are things that are just from the get-go, very detrimental to your presence because you’ve ruined the human connection that we can take advantage of on video. [7:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, talk more about hand gestures though. What do you mean by that? Because I talk with my hands.
Rachel: Yeah, definitely. Hand gestures are a fascinating category of non-verbal because it’s quite rich. And yes, using hand gestures is a wonderful tool to create a sense of openness, warmth, of invitation. It helps people trust you more because they know that you are present with them, that you’re not fiddling around with some unseen phone or tablet or… animal or whatever, right? People like to see open-palm hand gestures. It’s very soothing. It’s very reassuring. So that’s number one. On the other end of the spectrum though, some people over-rely on hand gestures to communicate. And when the hand gestures are kind of waving around nonsensically and there’s not an intentional connection between the way hand gestures are being used and the words that are being communicated, hand gestures, in that case, can be distracting. [8:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Rachel: So yeah, I mean, it’s all about, and then there’s like different types of when you’re touching your face with your hands, that can signal stress and anxiety and discomfort. And so, the way, what it really comes down to is developing a hand gesture vocabulary that supports the message you’re trying to send.
Nancy Calabrese: Right, yeah. Now, when we first got into COVID, I met with this woman who used to do broadcasting. One of the tricks that, tips she gave me was to buy a seat cushion to raise myself up. So, I’m looking square in the camera. Is that something that you recommend as well?
Rachel: Yes, whether it’s a seat cushion or propping, sometimes people need to prop their lens up a little bit higher so that they’re not looking down on the camera. The lens is like the other person or it’s like your audience’s eyes, right? It’s their vantage point. If you investigate the lens, you’re looking directly into their faces. And so, the way you orient around the lens is important. And that the level of the lens, making it easy for you to investigate the lens when you’re speaking increases your authority. Little hacks like that really go a long way. [9:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, and you know, it’s interesting what she taught me was I wasn’t looking at the camera. I was looking at her on Zoom. And so, I was looking down. So, I’m glad that she pointed that out to me. Okay, AI is big news nowadays. So how does that come into the equation with what you do?
Rachel: AI is central to what we do at Virtual Sapiens. So, all those nonverbal cues that I just mentioned, we’ve trained our AI to recognize. And so, when you’re interacting with any of our solutions, our AI will analyze your video feed and then provide you with personalized feedback on how you were showing up throughout that video recording or video meeting and provide you with suggestions on how you might level up your presence essentially. [10:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I’m just curious. So, I know your background is ballerina and gymnast. How did you wind up in this role and this, you know, being the owner of this company?
Rachel: Yes, through a series of reinventions, full circle back to the beginning of the conversation. But it does sound like a drastic leap, but when you follow the thread, it makes sense. I retired from Boston Ballet after dancing with the company for 10 years in 2016 and started working at Harvard in their fundraising department, which is heavy on relationships. And I noticed that there was a general lack of awareness when it came to the way people were showing up physically, their body language, their presence. And so, because of this like dancer spider-sense, right, as a dancer, you’re performing, and you only use your body to communicate. There are no words. And so I had this like nonverbal communication sensibility already and so I started studying the field and the different applications of it in restaurants, with sales teams, leaders, et cetera, started consulting in that space in my own right, but then also as a facilitator with other companies. And then when the pandemic happened, I was just like, if we’re going to be on video, we can use technology to our advantage here. [11:43]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow. And so, going back to AI, what do we need to be wary of when we use AI?
Rachel: In this application, right, so AI as a coach, and when the AI is analyzing your behaviors, whether they’re verbal, nonverbal, or vocal, the thing to really pay attention to is, where is the science behind the insights that are being shared? Have these metrics and insights, are they backed up by the most recent science and peer-reviewed research? Um, that’s one thing I would say is important to just confirm because it’s easy like information’s everywhere these days. And so, what you might see, for example, is, oh, this, um, AI coach over here will tell me how many times I’ve smiled. And it’s like, so what? Like, you know, like how is there, is there a study somewhere that says if you smile 15 times in a one-hour meeting that somehow has. You know, it’s like, it can’t be reduced to such a specific arbitrary number. Right? So, at Virtual Sapiens, we look at facial expression variation or expressivity, because we know when people engage with their facial muscles, in whatever way, it could be a surprise, shock, anger, frustration, happiness, or sadness. It depends on the context, which emotions make sense. So, we’re not going to tell you how to… how to feel or what to express, but we will tell you if you’re coming across as completely monotonous with your expressions. [13:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, funny, something I learned as well. When I listen to people over, say, a Zoom environment, my mouth droops. And so, I have to make a concerted effort to kind of keep my mouth from drooping. I was not aware of that.
Rachel: Right, right. I mean, that’s a perfect example of our habits on screens are a little, when it comes to the way we engage with a screen, we tend to be more passive, right? When we’re watching a movie, we just sit there and watch it. But now we’re having these human interactions that are alive with other human beings. And so, we must almost develop a new sense of muscle memory around the way we express ourselves on a screen. [14:09]
Nancy Calabrese: This is fascinating stuff. Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Rachel: I mean, let’s see, I think that video, when used well, both in the sense of when the human who’s on video is skilled and aware and can communicate effectively and when the video is the proper channel to use is one of the most powerful ways that as humans we can connect.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. And, you know, in wrapping up the show, what is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Rachel: I would say for all the audience members, the next time you are on a video call, which I would assume is soon, pay attention to not only some of the ways you are showing up, right? But how other people are showing up and whether you’re able to sense that they’ve had some kind of training or practice or put some real effort into the way they’re showing up as communicators. Or if they’re kind of… just turning the camera on to show that there’s a human on the other side. [15:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, one final thought before we wrap this up. Matching and mirroring is so important. What do you have to say about that?
Rachel: Yes, fascinating. So, one of our advisors who is a behavioral scientist, did her whole thesis on mirroring and mimicry. She started her thesis before the pandemic and then had to finish it during the pandemic and found that over the video, that same concept of a conversation when there’s synchrony in the conversation, people will mirror one another’s behaviors. That kind of behavioral concept is very present on video, which is fascinating because you would think that maybe the channel’s not strong enough but turns out that it is. [16:16]
Nancy Calabrese: I think it’s crucial in the sales process to use your nonverbal cues, as you’ve mentioned, and really listen in, and by listening in, like very often when I’m deep in listening, I kind of lean forward to make sure I’m getting everything. At the end of the day, I love what you do. I told you; you have such an interesting story. How can my audience find you?
Rachel: I’m most easily found on LinkedIn. So just Rachel Cossar on LinkedIn. Would love to connect with anyone who’s interested in speaking further. And our tools, anyone can try our assessment or Sidekick Coach for free on our website. So that’s virtualsapiens.co, C-O. [17:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, very good. And everyone, I really recommend you go to Rachel’s website and listen to her TEDx speech. It was fabulous. And it kept my attention for the whole time. It was great. So, Rachel, thanks for being here. I enjoyed speaking with you. I hope that we can continue this down the road and everyone has a great sales day.
Rachel: Thank you. [17:39]
