by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 18, 2024 | Podcast
About Christian Palmer: Christian Palmer is the Senior Manager of Sales Enablement at Justt, the only company fighting chargeback disputes for merchants and winning. Christian’s background includes working as an L&D Consultant/Sales Trainer at Phaidon International, where they provided foundational academy training to new consultants and coached and mentored them on both team and individual levels. Christian also worked as a Clinical Consultant at ProClinical, a global recruitment company specializing in the life sciences industry. Earlier in their career, Christian worked as an Associate Consultant at Real Staffing, an international pharmaceutical recruitment agency, and as a Corporate Recruiter/HR Associate at Dutch-X. Christian began their professional journey at Apple, where they served as an Expert. Christian Palmer, M.S.Ed., has diverse experience in sales enablement, recruitment, learning and development, and leadership roles. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Christian.
In this episode, Nancy and Christian discuss the following:
- Definition of sales enablement
- Importance of sales enablement within a company
- Necessary tools for enablement
- Role of sales playbook in enablement
- Enablement in one-person teams vs. global departments
Key Takeaways:
- It’s of tremendous value to businesses to bring somebody who can identify the gaps first, then fill them in and be the main voice for the salespeople.
- I’ve only seen playbooks succeed at larger organizations with more structure and infrastructure.
- Everything you say will not be listened to if you don’t have it.
“Sales enablement can be defined in a number of different ways. Because it is such a newer field, it tends to get mis-defined if that’s a phrase all the time. And the best way for me to describe it is essentially twofold. I’ll probably start with the more form formal definition of it. That is to provide the tools, resources, skills, processes, and infrastructure for sellers to enable them to be more efficient, skilled, and proficient with their actual product offering to sell more effectively over time. That is the more formal side, but I would say maybe something a little bit softer that I guess you could say is more layperson’s terms for folks is going to be that I am more or less bridge or support system or the voice of the salespeople. And that can stretch across different cross-functional teams to senior leadership and stakeholders and be able to bridge that gap between what’s going on in the ground with sellers and what’s happening strategically in the organization.” – CHRISTIAN
“In probably an ideal world is that you have your LMS, your learning management system, that you’re able to create content with and a CMS, a content management system, of which you’re able to organize that content of what you made in the LMS into a digestible format for sellers and anybody else looking at it. Both of those tools, more so the CMS, should be able to help you measure success rates of reps over time. That could be done in a number of ways, through their behaviors, actions, and results, corresponding those specific results to maybe some items that they had done during the onboarding within that CMS. But those are probably the main tools. You could throw in another authoring tool or whatnot if you wanted to facilitate making even more differentiated content, like maybe an articulate or something along those lines. Any place that doesn’t have either of those. It will be a bit more of a lift for an enabler to assemble something. Those tools make it a lot easier. But there’s a ton of them out there. It’s hard to know what’s going to be best.” – CHRISTIAN
“I think the easiest way, or the standard way you’ll see amongst most enablers, especially those with sales experience, is leveraging that you’ve been there before. Of course, this gets harder the longer you’re not in a sales role. The harder it’s going to be to align. However, I think the main foundational selling parts don’t change. So, those aspects are what you can align with a rep. Whether it’s somebody going on a performance improvement plan, I’ve been on it several times in my career. One time, it didn’t work out too great; the other time, it worked out for me. Using that as leverage and explaining to a seller, like, hey, look, this isn’t the end; it’s just the beginning, shows vulnerability on my part and shows them that I can relate to what this is—the vulnerability aspect I bring up because that’s how you build relationships with anybody. So, whether or not they’re actual sellers doesn’t matter as much to me. But the fact that they are, and I go in and let them know maybe areas that I’m weak in upfront, maybe areas that I know I’m strong in or where I think I can help them, and start adding value to them without them even asking for it.
An example of this would be if you come into an organization where you don’t have industry knowledge. This is very much how it was at Riskified for me. I knew nothing about chargebacks or the fraud or policy abuse space. But I did know all the different selling skills I’ve accumulated and enabled over the years. So, I was able to come in and create sessions and content and additional resources around some of these skills that were agnostic to what Riskified is and what industry it’s in.” – CHRISTIAN
Connect with Christian Palmer:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Christian Palmer, a global revenue enablement manager at Riskified Global Enablement Team. His company focuses primarily on global onboarding and coaching. Christian has a combined 11 years within sales and enablement. Starting off in the hospitality and retail world, he honed his skills within customer service. This translated to the recruitment third party staffing world, where he moved from individual contributor to sales trainer. His enablement career started there. And since then, he’s been fortunate to work with a number of early stage startups. It is a pleasure to have you on the show, Christian. Let’s dive right in.
Christian Palmer: Heck of an intro, Nancy. Thank you so much for having me. [1:18]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I’m excited. You know, but I have to tell you, global revenue enablement manager is a tongue twister. I had to practice that a few times to get it straight. I guess it’s something that you get used to, but let’s just start with the basics. Tell everyone what sales enablement means.
Christian Palmer: I want to preface this with sales enablement can be defined in a number of different ways. And quite frankly, because it is such a newer field, it tends to get mis-defined, if that’s a phrase all the time. And the best way for me to describe it is essentially twofold. I’ll start with probably the more form formal definition of it. And that is to be able to provide the tools, resources, skills, processes, and infrastructure for sellers to enable them to be more efficient, skilled, and proficient with their actual product offering to be able to sell more effectively over time. That is the more formal side, but I would say maybe something that’s a little bit softer that I guess you could say is more layman’s terms for folks is going to be that I am more or less bridge or support system or the voice of the salespeople. And that can stretch across different cross-functional teams to senior leadership and stakeholders and really be able to bridge that gap between what’s going on in the ground with sellers and what’s happening strategically in the organization. [2:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Great. Oh, you said sales enablement is relatively new. How new is it?
Christian Palmer: You know, I don’t have like, I guess the official point of when it started, but I will say I did not really see the word enablement until around like four or five years ago. And it was honestly it was around the time when I had started my tenure as a trainer, and I was doing enablement work before the word enablement even came up. Yeah. [3:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Huh, okay. So why is this so important, you know, to implement within a company?
Christian Palmer: I think it’s being able to have businesses strike a balance between the activities that most folks in a go-to-market organization, as far as the go-to-market function of a business is concerned, to be able to speak effectively on all the different things that are going on within the seller’s function and be able to translate that to other areas of the business um, or largest businesses need somebody like an enablement person on their side and on their team because they help bring their expertise, maybe as an individual contributor in their past sales life or other, um, you know, maybe other, uh, prerequisites that they bring to the table. Um, but also I think, uh, on the other end of it, they want to have somebody who’s able to come in and make the sellers better and more successful. And not to say, um, you know, a sales manager could not do that. A senior sales leader could not do that, or you know, maybe anybody else high up. A lot of the times, even the time I’ve been a sales manager, I did a lot of enablement work, but being a resource to them, not only coaching their reps and onboarding their reps and doing all the other associated enablement activities, but also working with the managers to help them get better as well. And I end up being, more of a resource and a support system and a true partner in the strategic aspects of the business, but also on the ground level working with reps directly. So, it’s of tremendous value to businesses to bring somebody on like that, that’s going to be able to really fill in the gaps, identify, I’m sorry, identify the gaps first, then fill them in and be able to be that main voice for the salespeople. [5:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. What are some of the tools you mentioned that are necessary for enablement?
Christian Palmer: You know, I’ve been in roles where I’ve had absolutely nothing except my Google account. You know, I’ve had to deal with just having spreadsheets and organizing everything and what I like to say a spreadsheet, HE double hockey sticks. That’s essentially what it is. And then using docs and everything else accordingly. But I would say in probably a more ideal world is that you have your LMS, you’re learning management system, that you’re able to create content with, and a CMS, a content management system, of which you’re able to organize that content of what you made in the LMS into a digestible format for sellers and for anybody else looking at it. Both of those tools, more so the CMS, should be able to help you measure success rates of reps over time. That could be done in a number of ways, through their behaviors, through their actions, their results, corresponding those specific results to maybe some items that they had done during the onboarding that are within that CMS. But I would say like those are probably the main tools and you could probably throw in another authoring tool or whatnot if you wanted to facilitate making even more differentiated content, like maybe an articulate or something along those lines. But I would say any place that doesn’t have either of those. Obviously, it is going to be a little bit more of a lift for an enabler to put something together. Those tools make it a lot easier. But there’s a ton of them out there. It’s hard to know what’s going to be best. I’ve worked with a bunch of them, so it can be difficult. So, I see it from both sides, but certainly those two would be the most important. [7:15]
Nancy Calabrese: So, is creating like a sales playbook part of sales enablement?
Christian Palmer: I would say not always, but a lot of the times, yes. I have been tasked with making a playbook in past roles. I think playbooks can take on different formats. They sometimes can be a tool to help upskill folks maybe on industry or product knowledge. You know, when there is a complex sale at hand and maybe you have people or sellers coming into the role that you know, don’t have that experience upfront. So, for instance, like Riskified is in the fraud management space within finance. And I think, you know, if you don’t know all the specific jargon coming into the business, a playbook for that could be of tremendous value to be able to upscale really, quickly, and early. But also, in addition to that, I would say playbooks themselves are only going to be as good as your best rep. [8:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Christian Palmer: And the reason why is because a lot of times, I’ve been in this situation before, you get asked or suggested to make a PlayBic or you take it upon yourself to make one, you put what you think is out there as best practice to sell product or product suite effectively, let’s say, and it doesn’t always resonate with every single person. You must know what good looks like first within your organization before you can then put that down in writing and say, this is how it’s going to be, and people can then follow it. I’ve only seen playbooks be really successful at larger orgs that have more structure and infrastructure in place where the sale is a little bit blacker and whiter than it is all over the place in gray, not knowing how to make a quote, having different types of products, different personas and things of that nature. [9:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, so where should enablement sit within an organization?
Christian Palmer: It’s a great question. It’s a question I’ve been guests on other podcasts where this was the entire topic. It’s fun to think about, you know, and I think different orgs would say and argue that it should sit with maybe marketing, maybe your revenue operations team. Those are probably the most common non-sales functions I’ve seen enablement report into. It really is going to be dependent on how built out or not built out your executive leadership team is, I would say generally, it should report into a VP of sales or whatever senior equivalent there is for sales. And the reason for that is because everyone’s goals, metrics, and things they’re working towards are going to be the most aligned in that regard. Whereas if you are, let’s say, reporting into a marketing, a CMO, um, you know, perhaps somebody else in a, in another part of the organization, uh, those folks tend to have different goals and metrics and things that they’re working towards where your roles and responsibilities may not correspond with that. So, I would say it’s, it’s harder to be set up for success in those situations. And on the softer side of things, you don’t have as much buy-in, um, cause you’re not a marketer. You’re not, um, a revenue operation professional, although it’s somewhat close. And, if you’re on the sales side of things, you’re going to be like kind of one of them if that makes sense. Not to put salespeople in a box, but let’s be real, right? If you’re not a part of the sales org, you’re going to get looked at a certain way. So, I think that that’s proven to be the most successful in my eyes as far as like organizational structure. [11:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. And you mentioned revenue operations. So how, how would you suggest to best work with that department for successful outcomes?
Christian Palmer: Definitely, I think collaborating with them on where their strengths are going to be versus yours. I’ve seen, this has happened at a couple organizations I’ve been in, I’ve seen revenue operations focus a little bit more on the reporting aspects of things, whether that’s Salesforce Tableau or whatever equivalent tool we want to talk about, being able to understand the stats a little bit more, the correlations between the metrics and maybe what’s going on within the market or within the industry to bring conclusions to why those metrics are the way they are. But I think in tandem, using those or leveraging them with enablement to say, how could we help sellers get better at their role or improve this stat over time? That’s where enablement could come in and say, well, you know, there’s a number of things we could do, whether it’s a session, a self-guided learning, some type of assignment or a combination of all three of those things to get sellers to be able to get up to speed as quickly as possible, make that change with the support of revenue operations. So, I think it’s just playing to each role strengths. But with that being said, I’ve seen revenue operations professionals act as enablers in some organizations and vice versa. I’ve been in an enablement role where I’m the one pulling all those stats if they don’t have a revenue person. I’m the one who’s kind of making those connections and then carrying out whatever enablement activities there need to be. But at least in the larger orgs where things are a little bit more built out, that tends to be what I’ve seen and heard. [13:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. OK. Now, you mentioned earlier that it’s important to earn stakeholder buy-in early and continuously. Why is it important?
Christian Palmer: If you don’t have it, everything you say is not going to be listened to. I think that that’s probably the biggest aspect of this whole thing. And it is imperative that when you come into an organization, you’re able to build up those relationships immediately. It takes a long time, you know? And I think a lot of stakeholders may or may not agree or align on the sentiment of needing enablement or what its value is. So, for those folks, sometimes it’s more of like, I need to prove it. But with stakeholders themselves, I think if you have their buy-in and it’s done early enough, they’ll be able to echo your sentiments. They’ll be able to reinforce things that you’re showing their team and be able to do all those things when you’re not around. And excuse me, I think that’s when it tends to be the most valuable because everybody is going to appear more aligned and you’ll feel more comfortable knowing that, hey, I can leave this in the manager’s hands. Additionally, there could be some other things that they would then help with on the side, not to say I would want every stakeholder to do this, but maybe they can help look over material that I create. Maybe they participate in some of the things that I’m doing with the sellers. That makes it a lot more valuable to a seller and to me, because then the weight of the world’s not on my shoulders. A seller is going to hear something from the horse’s mouth, their manager. Let’s say that’s a stakeholder and that ends up being a lot more successful. [14:45]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, but how do you establish credibility with the reps, the sales reps? How do you get their buy-in?
Christian Palmer: This can be done a number of ways. I think the easiest way or standard way you’re going to see amongst most enablers, especially ones that have sales experience, is leveraging that you’ve been there before. Of course, this gets harder. The longer it is that you’re not in a sales role, the harder it’s going to be to align. However, I do think the kind of main foundational parts of selling don’t really change. So, like those aspects are what you can really align on with a rep. Whether it’s somebody’s going on a performance improvement plan, I’ve been on performance improvement plans a couple times in my career. One time didn’t work out too great, the other time it did work out for me. And being able to use that as leverage and to explain to a seller like, hey, look, this isn’t the end, it’s just the beginning, shows vulnerability on my part and shows them that I can relate to what this is and the vulnerability aspect I bring up because that’s how you build relationships with anybody. So, whether or not they’re actual sellers doesn’t matter as much to me, but the fact that they are, and I go in and kind of let them know maybe areas that I’m weak in upfront, maybe areas that I know I’m strong in or where I think I can help them and start adding value to them without them even asking for it. So, an example of this would be maybe you come into an organization, you don’t have the industry knowledge. This is very much how it was at Riskified for me. I didn’t know anything about chargebacks or the fraud or policy abuse space, any of that. But what I did know was all the different selling skills I’ve accumulated and enabled on over the years. So, I was able to come in and kind of create sessions and content and additional resources around some of these skills that were agnostic to what Riskified is and what industry it’s in. [16:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Christian Palmer: So that helped me build up that rapport very quickly. Also reveal to them what my vulnerabilities are. But a lot of it is like coming in, sending a video, introducing myself to everybody in the main general channel on Slack or something, just being very open and available. And sticking my neck out for them when it comes to supporting them is so important to help them start getting by in with me or I get by with them. [17:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, you know, what’s the difference when you work with a one-man team versus a global department? Is there any difference in enablement?
Christian Palmer: I’d say so. I think on the one hand of it, when you’re on a solo enablement team, the weight of the world is on your shoulders most of the time, you’re going to be in a position where not only are you ideally identifying where there are gaps and how you could enable upon them, but every Tom, Rich and Harry is going to be reaching out to you about something they need, whether that’s people that are not big on enablement or people that are enablement happy and want to training for everything. Generally, when you’re a one-man person, it’s going to be a little bit, I don’t want to generalize, but at least what I’ve seen is like, you’ll be a little bit more responsible for quantity of production rather than the quality because of how fast things are generally moving. If you’re a solo enabler, usually you’re in a little bit more of a lean organization. They’re going to be scrappy. They’re going to want things done yesterday, although I would say bigger orcs still do that too. [18:28] But with all that.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I don’t think you get away with that in any organization.
Christian Palmer: Yeah, yeah. No, that’s a great point. And I think like if you’re if you’re solo, I think it just will come down to, you know, being able to spread yourself across a bunch of different areas simultaneously, pivot and adapt when necessary. Know that maybe some of the projects that are a priority today may be dropped as priorities tomorrow. On the other side of it, if you’re in a larger organization or like a global team. A lot of the times those teams are separated by function, by skill, by region. And with that means that people are going to have a little bit narrower swim lane. Maybe there’s people that are just focused on content. Some people that are just focused on bringing tools onto the team and integrating them. Like all those different thing’s kind of need to come together. Generally, there’s going to be a little bit more, I don’t know if red tape is the phrase, but You know, like the kind of bureaucratic tendencies of larger orgs where, you know, there’s a resource, meaning a person for everything and things will need approvals. You’ll need to work more cross-functionally. And in different ways than you would, if you were a solo person, you’d still would work cross-functionally as a solo. But I think in this regard, you’re going to be a little bit more like, okay, we’re going to do one piece of this enablement activity that I’m going to pass it on to a product marketing team or a data team or something along those lines. Whereas the solo thing, I would include them, but I generally would be doing everything from start to finish. So, I think there are pros and cons to both, but they are different. [20:07]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, can you believe it? We’re up with time. We could go on forever. No, not at all. I mean, you have a lot to share with us. So how can my people find you?
Christian Palmer: Did I speak too much? Did I say too many things? Definitely look me up on LinkedIn, Christian Palmer. I have a comma after my last name, MSED. And definitely find me on LinkedIn. Feel free to view the other podcasts and content that I’ve created in my featured section. And don’t be bashful. Hit me up with a message. If you need any help regarding enablement sales, maybe on the job search, I am available. And yeah, here to help. [20:47]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, hey folks, let’s take advantage of Christian’s generous offer. You were wonderful. And you could tell listening to you, you’re very passionate about what you do. And so, I’m going to end the show today and encourage everybody again, take advantage of Christian’s offer. Christian, you’re terrific. Thank you so much for your time and make it an awesome sales day, everyone. [21:14]
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 16, 2024 | Podcast
About Jeff Savlov: Jeff Savlov is the Founder of Blum & Savlov, LLP, and consults with business families, legacy wealth families, and the advisors who serve them. He brings more than 30 years of unique experience in sales and marketing, business ownership, entrepreneurial endeavors, family dynamics/psychological training, and a common-sense style to his consulting work with families. By integrating his diverse business background, extensive academic work, and family dynamics/psychological training with his experience working in his family’s commercial printing business, Jeff helps enterprising families balance family and business/wealth so both will thrive for generations. Jeff has consulted on relationship and team dynamics with Fortune 500 companies such as Bristol-Myers Squibb, Johnson & Johnson, and Schering Plough. He also devotes a portion of his time to performance enhancement with corporate executives and elite high school athletes. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Jeff.
In this episode, Nancy and Jeff discuss the following:
- The role of the Sandler methodology in understanding client needs and building relationships
- Jeff’s background and journey into family consulting
- The challenges faced by wealthy families and the specialized assistance they require
- Strategies for acquiring clients: speaking engagements and referrals
- Jeff’s unique approach to using Metallica’s story in his workshops
Key Takeaways:
- It’s easy to idealize being wealthy, but there are many challenges.
- One of my areas is parenting in the context of family wealth and how to start when kids are young to raise them so that those values will remain there when they learn about money.
- DISC is excellent for people who don’t have the training to help them think about the general categories that people fall into.
“I got trained as a family therapist. After grad school, I did another seven years of training in a psychoanalytic institute for seven years. Like I said, I got fully certified and started a private practice doing talk therapy 30 years ago. And just by coincidence, some of my early therapy clients also had significant wealth or family businesses. I was working with them as a therapist, and I could see that there was a need that was different than therapy, but that lawyers, accountants, and wealth managers didn’t have the training and background to go into the family dynamic side. So, I saw an opportunity to do something that was not therapy but between what a therapist and business consultants do. I started to work slowly and consult with families. Again, I’m not working on finance taxes or operations. I’m helping families develop strong family teams and work together two or three generations at a time. Now that people are living longer, you can easily have, you know, 80-year-olds, 50-year-olds, and 20-year-olds working together. I help them work together, develop leadership, communicate well, and make transitions from one generation to the next, helping the senior generation step back, give the next generation opportunity, and developing the next generation to step up and take over.” – JEFF
“ In terms of meeting people and those early stages when I’m trying to decide if I want to work with them and they’re trying to decide if they want to work with me, Sandler has been incredibly valuable. And what I just said is really at the heart of it. Sandler talks about a level playing field. So, it’s not like, “Hey, I’m the poor guy with the poor schmuck with something to sell. I hope you’ll buy it.” It’s more like I have something of value; I’m looking for people who need it, have pain around it that I can solve, and have respect for what I bring. And they’re looking for someone to help them with their pain, and it’s mutual. And Sandler, that part of the Sandler attitude is that it’s a level playing field but a two-way street. I’m not just looking for anyone who’ll hire me. And that’s a big piece of it. I feel like the rapport part of the equation is something I’ve always been good at just naturally, and certainly years of being a therapist, and that’s a big part of the Sandler piece.” – JEFF
“I find sales is fun. Even though I am primarily sort of a consultant and I’m doing, you know, professional consulting services, I must find— I’m a solo guy. I must find my, you know, my clients and serve them. And that is sales. And I think that sales— really, life is sales, not in a manipulative way, but life is about understanding people, seeing if there’s a common need or desire, and then going for it. And so, I find it a lot of fun. Sometimes, I land a big client, and then I’m disappointed. I must do the work. Not that I don’t enjoy the work, but I find sales— I love the hunt. And I find it enjoyable. I don’t know, people think it’s crazy that aren’t into it.” – JEFF
Connect with Jeff Savlov:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with my colleague Jeff Savlov, family business and wealth consultant, speaker, coach, and facilitator. He brings more than 25 years of experience to his work with families and family enterprises through his consulting work with Blum and Savlov. Jeff helps multi-generational family enterprises manage complex decisions related to their shared assets. He guides families as they move along the continuum from operating businesses to owning and managing multiple assets where a family’s emotional and financial lives are tied together in pursuit of the common future. Welcome to the show, Jeff. I’m so happy to have you.
Jeff Savlov: Yeah, thanks, Nancy. It’s great to be here. [1:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so Jeff and I go back many years and I’ve been trying to get him on the show for quite some time. We finally made it. Talk about how you got involved in this business. What’s your background?
Jeff Savlov: Yeah, so it was sort of by accident. Its kind of just fell together. I grew up in my family’s family business. I’ll give you the quick and dirty. Grew up in my family’s family business, middle school, I would go to the New York City on weekends. And then we opened a second location in New Jersey. High school, I got involved. Even during college, I stayed involved. As the business grew, my dad, who was really a blue-collar technical guy who started his own business, wasn’t really experienced as a manager or a leader got super stressed out, took out his stress on me, which is an unusual in family business. My mom found a family therapist that worked with parents and kids in family businesses. My dad agreed to go, the whole family went, my sisters too, they weren’t involved in the business. Had a really, transformative experience for the business, but also as father and son and for our family. I decided, you know what, I don’t love commercial printing and I love you dad and working together isn’t working for us, so I’m going to go my own way. I went into sales and marketing and that was my first sales job, which was interesting and had a lot of good experience while I was still actually in college. So had that experience, like I said, left the family business. But I was so moved by what that family therapist had done for us that I went back to grad school. I studied family and group dynamics. I got trained as a family therapist. After grad school, I did another seven years training in a psychoanalytic institute for seven years, like I said, got fully certified started a private practice doing talk therapy 30 years ago. And just by coincidence, some of my early therapy clients also had significant wealth or family businesses. And I was working with them as a therapist and I could see that there was needed that was different than therapy, but that lawyers and accounts and wealth managers didn’t have the training and background to go into the family dynamic side. And so, I saw there was an opportunity to do something that was not therapy but was sort of in between what a therapist does and what business consultants do. And I started to slowly work and consult with families. Again, I’m not working on finance or taxes or operations. I’m helping families develop strong family teams and to work together two, three generations at a time. Now that people are living longer, you can easily have you know, 80-year-olds, 50 year olds, and 20 year olds, all working together. I help them work together, develop leadership, communicate well, and make transitions from one generation to the next, helping the senior generation step back, give the next generation opportunity and developing the next generation to step up and take over. [4:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So, what’s talk therapy?
Jeff Savlov: Psychotherapy, talk therapy, it’s what you think of as therapy or counseling. I use talk therapy for sure, but some people just use therapy, but it’s what you think of when you think about going to someone and talking about your problems. [4:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so why do rich people need special help?
Jeff Savlov: You know, being rich ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. You know, it’s easy to idealize being wealthy, but there’s a lot of challenges. How do you raise kids? Especially 70 something, 75% give or take of millionaires are self-created in the U.S. right now. So, these are people that develop their own businesses, companies, whatever it was that they did to be entrepreneurial, develop their own wealth, and often they come from working class or blue-collar backgrounds. And so, they had built into their own childhoods, the need to work hard and create what they wanted to create. Now they have children who are growing up and it’s already there, the nice house and the cars and the vacations. So, there’s a lot of challenges with creating wealth and then how do you raise kids who can deal with that and won’t be spoiled and will have their own work ethic. It’s trickier than you might think. I mean, if you had a billion with a B, just say you had a billion dollars, how would you handle that with your kids? Would you tell them? When do you tell them? How do you raise them so that they’ll be responsible, and they won’t just sort of blow it all in their wild teenage and early adult years? So, there’s a lot of challenges there. And that’s really my expertise. One of my areas is parenting in the context of family wealth and how to start when kids are young to raise them in a way that they will be motivated and responsible, so that when they learn about the money, those values will still be there. [5:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, so how do you find your clients and sell them?
Jeff Savlov: So, I do a lot of speaking, paid speaking around the country, which is fun to do. I write a blog that’s popular. I’ve over the last 30 years met a lot of professionals whose clients, you know, trust and estate attorneys, accountants. Wealth managers who have wealthy clients and they’ve all seen the issues families face, but they never really knew what to do with it because they didn’t have my kind of a background. So, they’re really thrilled often to know somebody like me and make introductions, but it is hard because they’re also nervous. They’re not familiar with my world. They’re nervous. They’re going to insult their clients by saying, hey, here’s a guy that can help you parent better or help you work better as a family. They’re afraid they’re going to insult the client. So I’d have to do a lot of education with these people, these professionals who refer their clients, how to bring this up, how to keep it positive, how to say that this is normal stuff every family goes through, but now there are professionals like Jeff who have a different kind of expertise and I’d like you to meet him and not make it in terms of something’s wrong with your family, but more there’s an opportunity here and there is some danger coming your way and there’s an opportunity to manage it and get ahead of it. [7:10]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. So, you and I both study Sandler methodology, and I know that we’ve been colleagues for many years now. How does Sandler help you in working with your clients?
Jeff Savlov: So, in terms of meeting people and those early stages when I’m trying to decide if I want to work with them and they’re trying to decide if they want to work with me, Sandler has been incredibly valuable. And what I just said is really at the heart of it, Sandler talks about a level playing field. So, it’s not like, hey, I’m the poor guy with the poor schmuck with something to sell, I hope you’ll buy it. It’s more like I have something of value, I’m looking for people who need it have pain around it that I can solve and have respect for what I bring. And they’re looking for someone who can help them with their pain and it’s mutual. And Sandler, that part of the Sandler attitude of it’s a level playing field, it’s a two-way street. I’m not just looking for anyone who’ll hire me. What’s that? Eagle stature. [8:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, equal stature, right? Equal stature. I think that’s so important.
Jeff Savlov: And that’s a big piece of it. I feel like the rapport part of the equation is something I’ve always been good at just naturally and certainly years of being a therapist and that’s a big part of the Sandler piece. And the other thing I would add is once you’ve gotten through sort of the initial rapport and there’s a back and forth around, I feel like you’re a client that I could help and I would want to work with and you’d be fun to work with and they feel like, Jeff, you’re a good guy, you have something to offer, we’d like to work with you. Once all that is solidified upfront, to really have an open, honest conversation about budget. [8:47]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Jeff Savlov: And what kind of fees were they expecting to pay? What kind of fees do I charge? Is there a match? Is it too far apart that it just doesn’t fit? And just talk it all out. I think in the old days before Sandler, I do the bonding and rapport and have a conversation, and then I just email them a proposal and keep my fingers crossed. And sometimes they were shocked by the number, but there was no conversation. It was like, it was shocking. And that’s one of the best things, most valuable things I’ve got from Sandler’s while I’m still in the room meeting them and talking with them is to say, Hey, let’s talk about budget, let’s talk about the amount of money you thought this would cost. Let me tell you about my fees. Let’s see if there’s a fit for what we’re both looking for and having that conversation and really getting that kind of cleared up directly face to face before sending a proposal. So now the proposal is a rubber stamp. They’ve already heard the number and agreed to it, or we decided to go separate ways. It seems crazy that I used to just send a proposal and hope for the best compared to this. This is one of the most powerful things I’ve gotten from Sandler. [9:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. And you know, my early days in sales, I would do the same thing. But now understanding, I think what I gain most from Sandler is the opportunity to really determine are we going to be a good fit? Am I going to be a solution for this customer? Are they going to be a good fit for my people and my organization? So, what’s your unique idea that’s different and sets you apart?
Jeff Savlov: So, I like to say, surprise them upfront, rather than coming in with the hard sell or going right to business, I try to find something out from the prospect. I’ll look at LinkedIn, social media, something where we might have something in common. So rather than sitting down and getting right into the business thing, I might sit down and say, hey, I saw that you like to volunteer at a soup kitchen in Texas where you live. I’ve been volunteering for 15 years at a soup kitchen in Trenton, New Jersey for you and it’s really not only is it disarming but honestly I’m interested in the same thing as them and I want to have a conversation it’s really genuine and so I think that kind of let’s just talk about something that neither one of us was expecting just to sort of start getting some common ground it’s a really powerful thing and because it’s genuine it’s not manipulative and I’m interested it I think it comes off well. [11:10]
Nancy Calabrese: So, we just came out of a class all about DISC, communication styles, right? And somebody brought up in our meeting, how do you do it when you’re having a conversation? How do you figure out their communication style? How do you go about it? Like what are some of the things you listen for or look for?
Jeff Savlov: Yeah. So, you and I happened to be in the same small group and we were discussing that. And when I was starting to say, and we got our, we timed out of our little breakout, just as I was finishing up, because I’ve had such deep and, and such long experience in, you know, as a family therapist, as a psychoanalyst working deeply with people. This is aside from the consulting work, this is sort of the, the psychotherapy work that I do for so long, which feeds into the consulting work. [12:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Jeff Savlov: Um, for me, DISC kind of throws me a little bit because it sort of puts me in my head when I have sort of an instinct for this based on 30 years of meeting all kinds of people and helping get deeply into their problems. So, I feel like for me, there’s an intuitive process of, um, of, so I might not use the disc terms of, you know, Eagle or dove or parrot or what, owl. Um, but for me, it’s clear to me that someone is, is sort of aggressive. Um, they clearly want to keep things moving. They might curse. If somebody curses in the first few minutes or first meeting, I might throw in a curse in a playful way and I think they appreciate that. I’ll keep things moving because I see that there’s someone that wants to keep things moving. If there’s someone that’s really talking a lot and telling stories, I can see that they’re the person that wants them back and forth and getting to know each other. For me, it happens intuitively based on all that training. I think DISC is great for people that don’t have that training to help you think, the general categories that people fall into. Here’s what they might be looking for. Here’s how you might want to handle it. Would you add anything to that or what would you say? [13:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. I mean, it’s powerful when you think about it. And I think I said this in the group. It makes selling fun to me, you know, trying to understand, um, you know, Jeff’s communication style as I’m speaking with him, because our goal in sales is to communicate like them, right? Not like yourself. And I, from that point of view, uh, look, my opening pitch is the same, pretty much to everyone, but then you get into really understanding the dynamics of, you know, how they like to learn, how they like to be spoken to. And I find it fascinating myself.
Jeff Savlov: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really interesting, right?
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, so tell me something true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Jeff Savlov: So, I find sales is fun. Even though I am primarily sort of a consultant and I’m doing, you know, professional consulting services, um, I must find, I’m a solo guy. I must find my, you know, my own clients and serve them. And that is sales. And I think that sales really life is sales, not in a manipulative way, but life is about understanding people, seeing if there’s a common need or desire and then sort of going for it. And so, I find it a lot of fun. Sometimes I land a big client and then I’m disappointed. I must do the work. Not that I don’t enjoy the work, but I find sales just, I love the hunt. And I find it enjoyable. I don’t know, people think it’s crazy that aren’t into it. [14:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Great. It’s so funny, Noelle in our class for the longest time swore that she wasn’t in sales, but everybody is in sales, right? Everybody is in sales, whether they admit it or not. You want to go to a movie, and you want to persuade your partner or your family member to, or a friend, you want to see your movie, not their movie. So, I don’t know, I find sales fascinating, you know.
Jeff Savlov: Yeah, I’m with you there.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, so you come from your family business, you worked in sales and marketing, trained therapist and psychoanalyst. Is there anything else in store for you?
Jeff Savlov: Um, you know, I’ve said before, like when I became a therapist 30 years ago, I thought this was my final stop. And then I kind of fell into this. So, who knows, but I really like where I’m at now. It allows me to do a lot of things I like. I enjoy speaking and I’ve been getting sort of better and better fees for speaking. And I love speaking just on its own. So, to get paid to do it is fun. So, I think I’ll keep doing that. I like the families that I work with. Some of my families have businesses. Some of them don’t even have a business and they have just generational wealth without a business, but really big inherited wealth and they have a lot of the same issues around leadership and developing kids. So, there’s a lot of different things I can do, teaching parents, coaching parents with really young kids on how to raise them. I feel like I have so many different things that I can do that I’m not bored with it. So, who knows what the future brings. [16:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Hey, yeah, and you don’t you play a song when you travel a rock song to your people? When you go to conferences?
Jeff Savlov: I think you’re thinking of one of the workshops that I do, and I’ve done this to rooms of 200, 250 lawyers, accounts, wealth managers, as well as to families themselves. It’s called Drugs, Sex, Rock and Roll, Family Business, and Family Wealth Lessons from Metallica. And it’s, yeah, I play a song when I start it, but it’s the whole workshop is based on one-to-three-minute clips from a documentary about the band.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Metallica, right?
Jeff Savlov: Metallica, and while they’re not blood relatives in that sense of family, when I watched the documentary for fun many years ago, because I liked the band and I was interested in the documentary, when I watched it, I was shocked by how much they were very much a family and they’ve stuck together through thick and thin. And so, I use these clips from the documentary to start discussions and to teach professionals and families, and it’s really entertaining and it’s like the most well-received talk that I do. [17:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Just in general, how long does it take a family to like for the light bulb to go off, you know, with your work?
Jeff Savlov: It’s a good question. Some families just know that they’re in a lot of pain and there’s a lot of fighting and they’re looking for someone who can help other families. The light bulbs gone off and they’ve done a lot of the right things. But if you think about it, just a numbers game, you have two parents, maybe they have three kids, but they all grow up in the same family together. The kids get involved. They watch the parents build it. They’ve seen a go from nothing to something significant. That’s one transition. But then when the third generation comes. So, the three kids start to marry people who didn’t grow up in the family. So now you have outsiders coming in. Each of those kids has their own kids. That cousin generation is where it gets tricky. The people who married in might have very different ideas about how the kids should fit into the business and what a sense of fairness is. And the kids have different values based on the different families they’re growing up in. So that’s where it gets really, tricky. What was the original question? I forgot. [18:34]
Nancy Calabrese: Just how long it takes a family, you know, I guess there’s no special time, right? It varies from family to family.
Jeff Savlov: So, some people, you know, it takes a while. And for some people, there’s been a kind of a light bulb and they know that they can find someone like me to help them, especially when they hear about it. Often, they’re they don’t know that there’s someone with my experience and they’ll be talking or telling their fears to their accountant or their attorney or their wealth manager. And if that person knows me says, hey, you know, there is a world of, of help there that you might not know about. So, some people, the light bulbs already partially got off and they’re looking for help and other people they really are doing harmful things that are going to hurt their family and their business and they take some work to get them to kind of look at things a different way. [19:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I can’t believe we’re up with time, Jeff, and I could talk to you forever. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Jeff Savlov: Wow. It’s fun. For me, it’s relationships are everything in my personal life and selling. It’s really, I just, I love meeting people, connecting with people like you and I connected. And now we’re here on this podcast. I just think relationships are everything. So, if you’re selling something, you know, establishing a relationship with your prospects and just sort of in life. We just got back from a vacation in Puerto Rico and my wife just shakes her head. We get there and I’m in the pool and I’m talking to people from all over the world on vacation. She’s just sitting there reading a book and that’s what she likes to do. But I just like the relationship thing. And I developed friends in my week in Puerto Rico. [20:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Ha ha ha! Are you an I?
Jeff Savlov: I am an I, I and S. I’ve tested as I and S, I and a little D, but generally some form of I is always in there. Yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How can my rich people find you?
Jeff Savlov: Um, so it’s Jeff Savlov, S-A-V-L-O-V. My website is Blum and Savlov. So, it’s B-L- But if you search Jeff Savlov Family Business, any of those will get you to me.
Nancy Calabrese: All right. Hey folks, he’s the go-to guy. So, all of you sitting on a lot of wealth, you have kids, and you want to make sure that the wealth is, I guess, appreciated, and handled properly. Give Jeff a call, reach out to him. And Jeff, thanks so much for being on the show. We finally did it. And until we speak again, folks, we’ll see you next time. [21:15]
Jeff Savlov: Yeah, thanks, Nancy.
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 12, 2024 | Podcast
About Dave Kahle: Dave Kahle is the President of Kahle Way Sales Systems, a company where they help CEOs and VPs of Sales for Wholesale Distributors increase sales, gain market share, and significantly increase the ROI from their salespeople in 15-30 minutes a week. He is a B2B sales expert and Christian business thought leader. Dave helps his clients increase their sales and improve their sales productivity. He’s written twelve books, presented in 47 states and eleven countries, and has helped enrich tens of thousands of salespeople and transform hundreds of sales organizations. Sign up for his free weekly Ezine. Three international entities recognized his book, How to Sell Anything to Anyone Anytime, as “one of the five best English language business books.” Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Dave.
In this episode, Nancy and Dave discuss the following:
- The importance of sales processes
- Importance of sales processes: big picture vs. day-to-day
- Strategies to make prospects comfortable: first impressions, appropriate dressing, sharing personal details, effective questioning
- Investing in sales managers: their impact on salespeople’s behaviors
- Virtual selling: increased need for thorough preparation
- Use of “snippets” in sales conversations and their value in everyday life
Key Takeaways:
- Sharing something personal and unique about yourself breaks the barriers between you and the customer.
- The depth and detail of your question have a lot to do with how you make people comfortable with you.
- The sales managers are the in-between step between management and salespeople.
- Everybody can sell better if they choose to. They can.
“In that book, we talk about two different levels of sales process. The big-picture sales process is what a sales organization and the salesperson do over time. And then what I call the day-to-day or the nitty-gritty sales process is what a salesperson does with a customer or a prospect. […] Let me talk about the nitty-gritty sales process and how it relates to everyday activity. So, the first step in the prospect is to engage with the right people. And that can trump everything else. If you spend your time with the wrong people, no matter how well you do everything else, it’s a waste of time. So, step one is to engage with the right people. Step two is to make them comfortable with you. Because if they’re uncomfortable with you, they won’t react transparently and honestly. Step three: find out what they want. And again, there’s a whole body of content surrounding each of these. I mean, a couple of days’ training for each of these. The next step is to show them what you have given them and what they want. And again, that applies to anything, anywhere, anytime. That’s why it’s the title of the book. Then, you agree on the next step. And again, each one of these can be at least a couple of training days. At that point, you follow up because the decision is typically made in the business-to-business world. The decision to buy is typically made when you’re not there. So, you follow up and leverage satisfaction with this, which salespeople often neglect to do but to leverage satisfaction into additional internal or external opportunities. And then you know what? You’re back where you started from. So that’s the process. That’s the process that an individual salesperson uses to relate and sell anybody, anything. You have to do all those things regardless.” – DAVE
“There’s a whole lot of things, like number one, that is so often overlooked, and that is to make an excellent first impression—to look like you, to sound like someone that people can talk to and relate to. So that’s step one. And then there are so many things, like, for example, how you dress. I have a rule—you should dress like your customer, only a little better. So, if you’re a man wearing a suit and tie, calling on farmers, I mean, your suit and tie is separating you from connecting with that farmer, from making that customer comfortable with you. So, you dress like the customer, only a little bit better. And that’s the rule for everybody. And then, there’s sharing. I like to share something personal. It forces the customer to see you as a human being, not just a role player. You’re not just a salesperson; you’re a real person.- DAVE
“It’s here to stay, and it’s growing, and it has, and it required. It requires not necessarily something new, but the salespeople who are selling virtually have to be much better. For example, you cannot make an appointment to talk with somebody on a Zoom call and not be thoroughly prepared. You know, like so, the pressure to be thoroughly prepared so you’re not wasting time looking foolish on a Zoom call is far greater than if you stop by. You’re just going to stop by and see them, and sometimes you’re not fully prepared, but you cannot do that on a Zoom call. Now, it’s increased by a multiple. So, number one, they must be far more prepared. You know, with agendas and objectives of every sales call. That’s always been a best practice, but many have ignored it. You can’t ignore that anymore. And so, you know, that’s a big one. And then there are lots of things that kind of fall underneath that, things that you need to do when you’re selling virtually that you don’t necessarily need to pay that much attention to when you’re selling live.” – DAVE
Connect with Dave Kahle:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Dave Kahle, president of Kahle Way Sales Systems, enriching salespeople and transforming sales organizations by creating processes. strategies and systems of substance and delivering them via various media. Dave is a B2B sales guru and a Christian business thought leader. In the 30 years he has been in practice, he’s worked with over 500 individual companies. He’s presented in 11 countries and 47 states and authored 13 books, including the Good Book on Business, and How to Sell Anything to Anyone, Anytime. His books have been translated into eight languages and are available in 20 countries. Wow, Dave, welcome to the show.
Dave Kahle: Thank you, Nancy. It’s a pleasure and an honor to be here. [1:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, I’m delighted. I just want to jump right in. So how do you sell anything to anyone anytime?
Dave Kahle:Yeah, it’s about process, it’s about a sales process. And in that book, we talk about two different levels of sales process. The big picture sales process, which is what a sales organization and the salesperson does over time. And then what I call the day to day or the nitty gritty sales process, which is what a salesperson does with a customer or a prospect. [2:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Well, let’s talk about day to day a little bit. What activities should a salesperson do each day to keep their pipeline filled with qualified prospects and keep their clients happy?
Dave Kahle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So let me answer that in a roundabout way. First, let me talk about the nitty -gritty sales process and then how it relates to everyday activity. So, the first step in the prospect is to engage with the right people. And that can trump everything else. If you’re spending your time with the wrong people, then no matter how well you do everything else, it’s a waste of time. So, step one is to engage with the right people. Step two is to make them comfortable with you. Because if they’re not comfortable with you, then they’re not going to react transparently and honestly. Step three, find out what they want. And again, there’s a whole body of content surrounding each of these. I mean, a couple days training for each of these. The next step is to show them how what you have given them what they want. And again, that applies to anything, anywhere, anytime. That’s why it’s the title of the book. Then you agree on the next step. And again, each one of these can be a whole couple day of training, at least. And then at that point, you follow up because the decision is typically made in the business-to-business world. Decision to buy is typically made when you’re not there. So, you follow up and leverage satisfaction with this, which is something salespeople often neglect to do, but to leverage satisfaction into additional opportunities, either internal or external. And then you know what? You’re back where you started from. So that’s the process. That’s the process that an individual salesperson uses to relate and sell anybody, anything. You have to do all those things regardless. So now back to the question of filling up your pipeline. It depends on your sales situation. There are some situations where you’re constantly looking for new customers, but I’ve had a number of clients who everybody knows all the customers already. There’s not an issue of finding new customers because they know them all in the industry that they’re in. So, it really depends. A lot of those very specific things depend on the individual industry and your sales process, your specific sales process. [4:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So how do you make your prospects or your clients comfortable with you? What are some of your tricks?
Dave Kahle: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I, you know, I guess I’m a little uncomfortable with the word tricks. I would say, you know, tactics, but, but of course, uh, there’s, you know, this is, this is an area that’s been researched and studied for a long time. And, and there’s a whole, I mean, there’s a whole lot of things like number one, you know, this is so often, uh, overlooked and that is to make a good first impression, you know, to look like you, to look like you’re someone or sound like you’re someone that people can talk to and relate to. So that’s step one. And then there are so many things like, for example, how you dress, you know, the state of your dress, you should, and I have a rule, you should dress like your customer, only a little better. You know, so if you’re wearing, if you’re a man wearing a suit and tie, calling on farmers, I mean, your suit and tie is separating you from connecting with that farmer, from making that customer comfortable with you. So, you dress like the customer only a little bit better. And that’s the rule for everybody. And then, you know, there’s sharing, I like to say share something personal, you know, because when you share something personal and unique about yourself, it breaks the barriers between you and the customer. So, it forces the customer to see you as a human being and not just a role player. You know, you’re not just a salesperson, you’re a real person. [6:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Dave Kahle: And then of course, and this was subject to one of my books, it’s called Question Your Way to Sales Success. One way is the depth and detail of your questions. It has a lot to do with how you make people comfortable with you. And again, there’s all kinds of things. So typically, in this body of content that we’re talking about here, there’s the whole idea of matching personality styles, reading personality styles, and people use the DISC format, you know, DSE. And so matching or something I call the chameleon salesperson, changing your style to fit the style of the person that you’re working with. So, I mean, you know, there’s, again, that’s a very specific, well -researched, powerful strategy that can be applied over time. I mean, you learn to do that over time. So that’s just the beginning of what is just a whole lot of strategies and tactics and habits that can be developed to make the person comfortable with you. [7:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. You know, I, I love that you brought up DISC and matching your prospects or client style. And that’s why I find sales so fascinating because you must become more like them and be less of you. Right. And you must figure it out as soon as possible. Yeah. In a conversation. Huh? Um, you are a big believer in investing in sales managers. Why is that important?
Dave Kahle: Yes. Yeah. Because one of the things I do for a living is I work with sales forces from the top down. So, the chief sales officer or the CEO, whoever is the chief sales decision maker. And typically, we look at the system first and arrange for changes to be made in the structure of the sales system. So, things like compensation plans and does your compensation plan reward the people for doing what you want them to do? Typically, it doesn’t. And typically, the decisions that have been made about structure are decisions that have been made in an earlier generation and people have them, they don’t even know why they have it. So first we work with structure and then we work with the sales managers because the sales managers, their routines, and the things that they do with their salespeople have a tremendous impact on what the salesperson does. So first the structure, then the sales managers, and then finally we work with the sales team itself to instill some of the behaviors that we’re talking about here. So, the sales managers are the in -between step between management and salespeople. [9:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh. Talk about your sales management system.
Dave Kahle: Hmm. Yeah. So, so this is a system we’ve created over the years, and you know, we’ve taught it to over 2 ,400 sales managers. We have it. We have two cohorts going on right now. It’s a, it’s a, it’s an eight-part, eight module courses. And people, people take the coursework online and then we get together for a zoom meeting with all, with all the people in the course. And we keep it. We keep it no more than 15 in each group so that people can relate to one another and talk with one another and so on. But it instills a system for sales management because what the sales manager does and what he requires and the kind of relationship that he has with his people is just incredibly important. So, we have created a system. We instill the system, say, do these things. And we have a whole series of what I call best, the best practices of the best sales managers that we teach sales managers in the system. [10:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. You also mentioned you believe that there are principles or practices that will make the greatest impact on a person’s sales performance. What are they?
Dave Kahle: Yes. Well, you know, so I’m asking, I’m often asked, Dave, is there, is there one, if there’s only one thing you could do with a business-to-business Salesforce to improve their sales, what would it be? And I answer typically there’s, there’s two things, but the number one thing, you know, if there’s only one place, I can make some changes in a sales team’s behavior and their routines. The number one thing I would do now, again, we’re talking about business-to-business salespeople. The number one thing I would do would be to teach them how to rank and prioritize their accounts based on their potential. And it sounds so simple. Doesn’t everybody do that? No, no, they don’t. They go where it’s comfortable. They go where people are calling them. Instead of doing a real formal, and again, we have a system that we teach people to do, but it begins with looking for two issues. And one is what I call partner ability. So, we rate every prospect and every customer on their partner ability, which is subjective. It’s who the customer is, not how big they are. And then number two, we look for something we call QPC, which is Quantified purchasing capacity and that one says if they bought everything, they could from me in the next 12 months How much would that be? So, we create we create some boundaries around that number so we can compare one to the other Because we know we’re talking about again everything if they bought everything, they could for me in the next 12 months How much would it be? So, it’s an annual purchase and We take both those we turn those into numbers, so there’s a number for QPC and a number for partner ability, we put them together and the highest ranking are the highest potential. I mean, it’s straightforward, although there’s quite a bit of detail to it, but it’s straightforward. And the issue is, and again, the biggest issue is getting people to understand we’re ranking prospects and customers based on their potential, not on their history. And a lot of salespeople just really have a hard time getting their heads around that. [13:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Dave Kahle: Because if I ask, if I ask, show me your best accounts, everyone will go give me a computer printout, show me how much they bought last year. And I would say, well, that’s fine, that’s fine, but nobody cares. That’s not the question. The question is not how much they bought last year. The question is how much could they buy this year? That’s a whole different question. And it gets people thinking about the future, not the past. So, there’s a whole lot of stuff around that. But I will say this, when we instill that system of ranking and prioritizing your accounts, and people do it. Typically we see dramatic impacts on performance within six months and the most common, I know this is going to sound crazy, the most common testimonial that I get from people who’ve done this, you know, used our system for a couple years, the most common thing I hear, and you’re not going to believe this, but the most common thing I hear is triple, triple. Dave, we haven’t increased our business by 15 % or 20, we’ve tripled it. This is the single most impactful, most powerful practice to instill in a business-to-business sales force that will get the biggest bang for the buck. [14:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. But how do you figure out what a company is going to purchase in the 12 months? How do you do that?
Dave Kahle: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, well, the first group, first, the simplest, sometimes the simplest ideas are the best, you know, you ask, you ask now, now, and, you know, some people won’t tell you because they don’t know or they don’t think, you know, but when you ask, you’ll probably knock off about 50 % of them. Okay. So, what do you, so what do you do with the other 50 %? Well, you, you, you get some measurable number in that organization that you can use to compare with them with something else. So, it could, and it’s almost anything, you know, so it could be numbers of employees. So, here’s a manufacturer of X with 200 employees. And here’s a manufacturer of X, same thing with a hundred employees. You know, the hundreds number, the 200, you can, you just do a little formula, you know, and you put some number on it. You know, for here’s an example. So, I have worked with a number of HVAC distributors. So, they’re selling. There’s selling to the people who fix your air conditioning furnace. So, if you say how much are you going to buy this year, how much will you buy in total of this category? And they say, well, I don’t know. You say, OK, how many trucks do you have on the road? Because there is a number for trucks. So, if they say, well, we have 15 trucks. And you know that every truck equals $50 ,000, just 15 times 50. And you got it. There it is. So, there’s almost always some collectible, accessible measurement that you can use and put a formula on it. And again, the formula’s gotta take a little work, but you create the formula, put it on some measurement, and there you go. [16:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, you know, let’s talk about virtual selling because that’s the way the world has become. I think it’s here to stay. What are your thoughts on that?
Dave Kahle: Yeah Absolutely, it’s here to stay and it’s growing and it has and it required it requires Not necessarily something new but the salespeople who are selling virtue have to be better much better for for example You cannot make an appointment just to talk with somebody on a zoom call and not be thoroughly prepared You know like so the pressure? to be thoroughly prepared so you’re not wasting time looking foolish on a Zoom call is far greater than if you stop by, you’re just going to stop by and see them and sometimes you’re not fully prepared, but you cannot do that on a Zoom call. So, you must be, the pressure to be prepared, well, it was always there. Now it’s increased by a multiple. So, number one, they must be far more prepared. You know, with agendas, objectives of every sales call. Like that’s always been a best practice, but a lot of people have ignored it. You can’t ignore that anymore. And so, you know, so that’s a big one. And then there’s lots of things that kind of fall underneath that things that you need to do when you’re selling virtually that you don’t necessarily need to pay that much attention to when you’re selling live. [17:31]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, I never thought of it that way. Are you a big fan of scripts in sales?
Dave Kahle: Yeah. You know, I’m a fan of what I call snippets. So, snippets are pieces of conversation that you use repeatedly. And you take the time to prepare them and do them as well as you can. And then you memorize them. So, things like, I mean, you know, the best example is probably what we’ve all talked about an elevator speech. Okay, so this is who you are, what your company is, why the customer should care. And so, you’re going to say that, you know, you’re going to use that piece of conversation hundreds of times. So why not prepare it? Why not sit down, put it together as best you can and then memorize it. And then when somebody says, hi, so what do you do? It comes out in a, in a powerful confident way because you prepare to be forehand so snippets of Conversation that you find yourself using over and over again those things ought to be prepared Memorized and used over and over and so I so I believe in snippets not necessarily scripts. [18:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, I’m in your corner and I think the key is once you really, if you’re saying the same thing repeatedly, it becomes a part of you. You’re not reading anything and it also grounds you, right? So, you’re not winging the conversation. Dave, I can’t believe we’re up in time already. You are fascinating. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Dave Kahle: Everybody can sell better if you choose to. You can. There are principles and practices that have been proven to help people sell better and everybody can. [19:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I agree with you again, 100%. So how can my audience find you?
Dave Kahle: Go to my website, https://www.davekahle.com/. And we’ve got bunches and bunches of resources, free resources, and we do webinars and just all kinds of stuff there. But the starting point is just the front page of DaveKale .com. And click on stuff that you’re interested in. For example, I do a weekly, what I call an E -zine called Sell Better. It goes to thousands of business-to-business salespeople and their bosses every week. So, you can sign up for that. I do podcast shows a little different. I do a 10-minute sort of lesson every week. And so, you know, there’s all kinds of stuff like that. Just go to the website page and connect with something and take it from there. [20:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Hey folks, you heard it right from the expert here. Reach out to Dave, take advantage of his resources. Let’s all learn how to sell better, you know, each and every day. Dave, thanks so much for spending time with us. Again, you’re entertaining. And to all of you out there, I wish you an amazing sales day. Until next time, go get going. Reach out to Dave. Take care. [21:15]
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 9, 2024 | Podcast
About Craig Lowder: Craig Lowder is the Founder and President of the Main Spring Sales Group, a specialized client acquisition consultancy focused on creating significant, predictable and sustainable sales growth for successful Financial Advisors, Consultants and Business Leaders making a 6-7 Figure Income seeking a strategic senior-level sales executive on a part-time, contract basis to develop and execute sales strategy, including sales process development, performance management systems, and ensure sales execution. With a 30-year track record of helping business owners and sales teams achieve their goals, as author of two highly-rated books, Smooth Selling Forever and Trusted Advisor Confidential℠, and as Founder and President of the Main Spring Sales Group, Craig has learned that success in sales comes down to three things: process, teamwork and access to experience that shortens the learning curve. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Craig.
In this episode, Nancy and Craig discuss the following:
- Craig’s journey into sales
- The importance of understanding buyer journeys and aligning sales strategies accordingly
- The specifics of Craig’s target industries
- The value of choosing the right fit for sales roles within organizations
- Assessments in hiring salespeople: value or harm?
- Exploration of Craig’s new book “Trusted Advisor Confidential”
- Recommendations on maintaining a healthy sales funnel
- Increasing importance and the shift in buyer behavior towards virtual selling
Key Takeaways:
- The basis of selling is understanding the person that you’re talking to from a professional as well as a personal level so that you can communicate with them effectively.
- A professionally statistically valid assessment helps you to determine whether what you’re looking at is real.
- We were going towards virtual selling prior to COVID and COVID was just like the spark plug that initiated the change.
- If you think effective virtual selling is a 20-to-30-minute conversation at max, maybe 40, but the shorter the better.
“I have not found a company yet that has a defined, documented sales recruiting process. Step by step: what are the steps, who’s involved, what are the desired outcomes? So, number one: having a documented sales hiring process. Number two: developing filtering questions based on the characteristics that you’re seeking, so that you can also build an interview scorecard, which will tell you whether they’re a good fit for your organization.” – CRAIG
“I’ve been on a four-decade journey of being a trusted advisor, a salesperson, a business development person, a new client acquisition person. And I saw a huge gap out there for individuals who are in business. The only way that they can earn a living is by eating what they sell. Unfortunately, whether they’re financial advisors, commercial bankers, insurance brokers, consultants, coaches, or even marketing firms, they’re very, very good at delivery, but they’re not very competent or competent in developing new clients, having a process to do that. And with those, in many cases, particularly those who have letters after their name (PhD, JD, even MBA, I can say that because I have one of those), they go, “No, no, no, selling is too far below me.” So, in the book, we don’t use the word selling, but that’s really what it is. If you were to ask every one of them, “Would you like to have more of the right fit clients?” Unanimously, they’re going to say, “Yes.” Well, as you and I know, that’s technically business development and social selling. But it’s like taking the curse off the call by talking about client acquisition. So, trusted advisor confidentiality is about communicating to them what are the six stars (and we’re using that in celestial terms) that they need to follow to successively build a book of business filled with right-fit clients and significantly increase their personal income. And those stars include: targeting, messaging, sales process mapping, establishing sales success standards, effective generation, and having a healthy funnel.” – CRAIG
“Well, the six stars are developed in a hierarchical fashion. You have to have a good target audience and you have to have a message that resonates with them, and you have to have a lead conversion process that mirrors how they buy. So, it really all starts with targeting the right prospects, the right audience so that you can get the most out of your marketing activities as well as your limited sales time.” – CRAIG
Connect with Craig Lowder:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking again with Craig Lowder, author of Smooth Selling Forever, a sales effectiveness expert with a 30 plus year track record of helping owners of small and mid -sized businesses achieve their sales goals. He is also the founder and president of MainSpring Sales Group, which assists companies needing a strategic sales leader on a part -time contract or project basis to develop and execute a sales strategy, develop sales process and performance management systems, and ensure sales execution. Craig has worked with over 60 companies and increased first year annual sales from 21 to 142%. Great job, Craig. Welcome back to the show.
Craig Lowder: Well, thank you, Nancy. It’s an honor and a privilege to be here talking to a fellow sales professional. [1:24]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, we both love selling and I know I asked you this in our last podcast, but let’s, you know, review it again. Why do we love it so much?
Craig Lowder: from my perspective, I’m basically a teacher. It’s all about helping others and creating life abundance for my client. And everything starts with what we can call selling business development, new client acquisition, but helping identify the undiscovered, unknown needs that a business has in growing is the beginning of the selling process and matching the needs of that organization, that individual with some options so that they can take actual steps is what selling is all about. And selling, I think a lot of people that are not professional salespeople, and even there are some that are professional salespeople, think that sales can be a little bit manipulative. It should not be. It should be going down the road in the same direction at the same speed with your prospect and trying to define a solution that fully addresses their specific needs. [2:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. How did you get involved in sales?
Craig Lowder: Oh, gee. You know, it’s really a long story. You know, I was a wannabe professional athlete that just didn’t have the talent. But that’s all about selling the coaches or whatever on your ability to get the job done. But when I went to college, and I wanted to become a psychologist and I found there was too much gray area for me after two years. And I sat back, and I started reading some books on marketing and selling. And if you remember the old, old, old Ford commercials where the light bulb went on, the light bulb went on. And I said, this is what I want to do because I really wanted to be a teacher, Nancy. And at that time, there was no opportunity to get into teaching back in the mid-seventies. [3:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, okay. And then, so you opted for sales.
Craig Lowder: I opted for sales, and I did sales and marketing. And as we say to many of our clients, we went to the dark side. We moved away from marketing and moved out in front of the customer with the whole idea of help identifying needs and providing solutions to those needs. And I found it extremely rewarding. [4:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, and you probably used the two years that you studied psychology also in your sales skills. Wouldn’t you agree?
Craig Lowder: Oh, absolutely. The basis of selling is understanding the person that you’re talking to from a professional as well as a personal level so that you can communicate with them effectively. And when I say effectively, there’s one definition that somebody shared with me years ago, and it’s always stuck with me. Communication equals the response that you receive. And if you don’t receive the response that you’re seeking, the communication may have not been there. [5:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. Now when you describe the sales process, you use the steps assess, design, deploy, and execute. Tell us more about that.
Craig Lowder: Sure, thank you for asking, Nancy. That is really a closed loop system and everything that we do and everything that any of us do in making an informed decision, we must first assess our situation, design a solution, deploy that solution, and make sure that it’s executed effectively. And then we because the process is an iterative process, we should be always on the look -up, constantly looking for seeking ways to improve or enhance the process. [6:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. How do you execute it properly? Like what are the things that need to be put in place to ensure that execution is correct?
Craig Lowder: Oh, that’s really a great question, Nancy. And too many sellers are looking at, well, this is what we sell, and this is how we want it sold, as opposed to starting with your buying audience and identifying the steps that they’re going to go through in terms of making an informed decision for them. And that’s what I refer to as a buyer journey. And that’s where we start in developing a sales process. So, what is the buyer journey of your target audience? What steps are they going to go through? Once we define that, now we can build a process that mirrors how they buy. [7:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, interesting. Now you play in the small and mid -sized businesses. Do you target certain industries or are your industry agnostic?
Craig Lowder: Nancy, it’s really all industries apply, the principles apply, they’re executed differently. But my focus is B2B. I do a lot of manufacturing, a lot of distribution companies, and believe it or not, although they spent 20 years in professional services, application software, I do some work in that area, but most of those companies are too early stage to really take advantage of what I do. My typical audience is anywhere from five to, quite frankly, 125 million with a sweet spot somewhere between 10 and 50. [7:52]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow. And like, what are their frustrations? So, I’m speaking with a prospect, and I hear them complaining about ABC. What am I going to hear from them that would make me think of you or have them come to you?
Craig Lowder: Typically, what they will say is, our sales are not growing as we anticipated or expected. And so, we’re not generating predictable and sustainable results. That’s one area. They don’t have a system and strategy. And secondly, they say, gosh. The world has changed and my salespeople, my sales leader is not functioning in the way that they used to, which means their biggest challenge is recruiting and retaining right fit members of their sales team. [8:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. You know, which brings up a very good point, having the right people in an organization will make or break its success. So how do people recognize that salesperson A is a fit, but salesperson B is not? What do you suggest companies do?
Craig Lowder: Well, that’s a great question because I have not found a company yet that has a defined, documented sales recruiting process. Step by step, what are the steps, who’s involved, what are the desired outcomes? So, number one, having a documented sales hiring process. Number two, developing filtering questions based on the characteristics that you’re speaking are seeking so that you can also build an interview scorecard which will tell you whether they’re a good fit for your organization. A case in point. I had a client a number of years ago that sold banners and flags and their salespeople were expected to close 20 plus transactions a week in the range of 500 to $1 ,000. The owner of the company brought somebody in that sold MRI systems. And I think you know where I’m going with this, Nancy. The owner said, I love this individual. He dresses great. He’s so articulate. Wow. And I said, go through your scorecard. And he went through an agreement and goes, he’s not a fit. And I said, that’s right. He’s not a fit. MRI systems, if he sells one or two in a year in the sales process is 12 months, 24 months long. He’s not going to create enough activity for you to generate the type of sales that you’re accustomed to generating. So, it’s not that he’s a bad person. He’s just not a right fit for your role. [10:59] The other thing, Nancy, I go ahead. []
Nancy Calabrese: You know that I had. No, no, no, go, go finish.
Craig Lowder: I was going to say the other things that I find that most companies don’t do, they do not know how to effectively conduct reference checks. Or they will just give up and say, well, they’re useful. Any sales candidate can come up with two or three shills that they know that’ll say nice things about them. And I say, nay, nay, nay, during the interviewing process, as you go through your discovery, you’re either seeking to validate what you’ve learned that’s positive, and you’re also speaking to fill in the gaps where things are missing. So, when you’re doing reference checks based on your interviewing, I may say to you, Nancy, I’d like to talk to your superior at Ajax. I’d like to talk to a customer at that company. I’d like to talk to a peer or a subordinate. And very quickly, you will be able to ascertain whether they can come through or not. Too many times do I hear Oh, I had a great relationship with my boss. I left because I was looking to have the opportunity to be promoted. When I’ve asked him to talk to that superior, oh, and this is a real-life case. Oh, I don’t know where to find her. She’s retired. Well, I thought you said you had a good relationship with this person. Are they on Linkbook or face, LinkedIn, or Facebook? Well, I really don’t know. So, suddenly, you’re starting to see some bad signals there. [12:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Red flags.
Craig Lowder: Red flags, bad vibes, yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. And do you believe in assessments before you hire a salesperson?
Craig Lowder: Absolutely, Nancy, and I know you and I both believe that’s the case. There are so many variables. A professionally statistically valid assessment helps you to determine what you’re looking at is real. In fact, right before we got on the call here, I have a client that’s looking to hire a salesperson. They took the sales assessment that I use, and I gave them feedback. This is a great transactional competitive salesperson, but they’re not best suited for a multiple buying influence long -term sale. [13:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, interesting.
Craig Lowder: So, as you know, it’s just one other point that you need to check to make sure that you’re making a right hire. And the old philosophy is married slowly, is really, important here. And fortunately, too many people say, I really like this person. They worked for a competitor in our industry. They probably really know their stuff and you find out they’re looking for a reason, and in most cases, it’s related to non -performance. [14:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. Well, let’s talk about your new book, Trusted Advisor Confidential. What’s it about and what motivated you to write it?
Craig Lowder: Well, thank you for asking. You know, I’ve been on a four-decade journey of being a trusted advisor, a salesperson, a business development person, a new client acquisition person. And I saw a huge gap out there for individuals who are in business. And the only way that they can earn a living is by eating what they sell. And unfortunately, whether they’re financial advisors,
commercial bankers, insurance brokers, consultants, coaches, and even marketing firms, they’re very, very good at delivery, but they’re not very competent or competent in developing new clients, having a process to do that. And with those, in many cases, particularly those who have letters after their name, PhD, JD, even MBA, I can say that because I have one of those. They go, no, no, no, selling is too far below me. So, in the book, we don’t use the word selling, but that’s really what it is. If you were to ask every one of them, would you like to have more of the right fit clients? Unanimously, they’re going to say, yes. Well, as you and I know, that’s technically business development and social selling. But it’s like taking the curse off the call by talking client acquisition. So, trusted advisor confidential is about communicating to them what are the six stars, and we’re using that in celestial terms that they need to follow to successively build a book of business filled with right fit clients and significantly increase their personal income. And those stars include one, targeting, two, messaging, three, sales process mapping, four, establishing sales success standards. Five, effectively generation. And six, is having a healthy funnel. [16:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So how do you, how do you, well, what do you recommend people do to have a healthy funnel?
Craig Lowder: Well, the six stars are developed in a hierarchical fashion. You have to have a good target audience and you have to have a message that resonates with them, and you have to have a lead conversion process that mirrors with how they buy. So, it really all starts with targeting the right prospects, the right audience, so that you can get the most out of your marketing activities as well as your limited sales time. [17:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, wow, really cool. And you know, I want to wrap this up, but let’s just mention virtual selling, the world in which we live. I think it’s going to be around for a long time. What do you have to say about it?
Craig Lowder: Nancy, it’s going to be around for as far as we can see in our lives. And we were going towards virtual selling prior to COVID. And COVID was just like the spark plug that initiated the change. I was very blessed to be published in Forbes right after COVID started. And the writer came back to me and says, oh look at the article that McKinsey came out with. They’re saying the same thing that you are. And I said, I stand corrected. I’m saying the same things that they are saying. It’s not the other way around. They know what they’re talking about. But what we’re seeing is, and this is, here’s the insidious thing, Nancy. It’s being driven by the buyers. The buyers are saying, salespeople suck up too much of my time. [18:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Hehehe. Right.
Craig Lowder: The cordialities are too much. I cannot get all the buying influences in the room. It’s logistically impossible. It takes too much time. Bottom line, we cannot make the best-informed decisions for our business. So virtual selling facilitates our ability to make the best decisions in a shorter timeframe involving the right people who need to be involved in the process and if you think about this, when I teach virtual selling, I used to ask the question, is virtual selling new? And everyone would say yes. And I’d say, well, let’s think back. Have you thinking of a Sears catalog, newspaper ads, Ron Pappil and Vegematic? Those are all virtual selling. [19:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh my god. Vegematic. Oh, God.
Craig Lowder: So, it’s always been there, but in a B2B environment, more and more buyers are insisting that they have the opportunity to buy virtually. And if you think about more millennials getting into the market where they’re making informed buying decisions, most of them are focused on doing their research online and meeting or conversing virtually, not in -person meetings. [19:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Hey, I think, you know, virtual selling is fabulous. It saves you so much time travel to and from. And you can do it out of the comfort of your home or out of your office. And you still accomplish the same thing.
Craig Lowder: And we have. Absolutely, it must be structured differently. If you think effective virtual selling is a 20-to-30-minute conversation at max, maybe 40, but the shorter the better. So, you have more meetings, shorter meetings. What that does, it puts the onus on the seller to be well prepared in setting out the agenda in conjunction with the buying audience and making sure that they deliver on the agreed upon outcomes for that conversation. And for me as a… Go ahead. [20:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, Craig, our time is up. I hate to stop this, but how can my people find you? You’re fascinating.
Craig Lowder: Well, my wife would beg differently. She says I should be on the stage and there’s one leaving in 20 minutes. But the best way to reach me is you can call me at 630 -649 -4943 or you can email me at Craig, C -R -A -I -G, at Smooth S -M -O -O -T -H, Selling S -E -L -L -I -N -G forever, f -o -r -e -v -e -r dot com. [21:20]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise once again. You’re a great guest and audience. Take advantage of this man’s knowledge and wealth of knowledge. You know, if you are struggling with finding the right salespeople, if you’re not hitting quota, he is the go -to guy. So, thanks again, Craig, for being on the show. And for everyone out there, make it an awesome sales day. [21:51]
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 5, 2024 | Podcast
About Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Natalie Doyle Oldfield is the President of Success Through Trust, which works with some of the world’s most successful companies to increase sales, become more profitable, and increase customer trust and loyalty. She is also a keynote speaker, trainer, and thought leader. Natalie is the author of The Power of Trust: How Top Companies Build, Manage and Protect It. Success Through Trust has developed a methodology and award-winning programs based on this research. The book was named one of the Top 5 business books of 2017 by the Chronicle Herald. Natalie was named a Top Thought Leader in Trust by Trust Across America Trust Around the World in 2018 and 2017. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Natalie.
In this episode, Nancy and Natalie discuss the following:
- The fundamental importance of trust in business relationships
- Natalie’s experience as a chief marketing officer during the 2008 financial crisis
- The role of trust in business-to-business transactions
- The outcome of Natalie’s research: Trust is a fundament of every buying decision in business-to-business environments
- Why customers are willing to pay more for products and services from trusted companies
Key Takeaways:
- I created a proprietary framework and a model to help people build these relationships of trust with their customers and colleagues.
- Trust is what the most successful companies have in common.
- People and companies that are focused on building relationships of trust are the ones that are going to be most successful.
- Everybody can learn how to build a relationship or strengthen a relationship of trust and we can all cultivate and develop these skills.
“There is nothing more important than trust. And if we think about it, every single decision we make comes down to trust. First, we decide: do we trust? Then, we decide: are we going to listen? Afterward, we decide if we’re going to have a conversation. Following that, we decide if we’re going to look at someone’s capabilities. We make these decisions subconsciously. In fact, in every business and personal relationship, trust plays a crucial role. Because I know most of your listeners are either working in a business, own a business, or are leaders in a business, trust is involved in every single relationship we have. It’s the most important question everyone has.” – NATALIE
“I became deeply intrigued by how customers decide to buy in a business-to-business environment that I went back to school. I did graduate research, which led me to the science of trust. My master’s thesis revolved around how people decide to buy in such environments. I found out quite quickly that it all starts with trust. First, we decide to trust, then we decide to buy. And you know, lonely wolf, there’s a wonderful, very, very strong, much stronger than when I started 10 years ago, business case for learning and cultivating and developing relationships of trust. And, you know, worldwide, as we know, people buy from people they trust. Well, the fact is that 80% of us buy from a company or an organization we trust. And we pay more. We pay more when we trust. If I’m going to go out for a coffee, I’m going to pay more for a Starbucks coffee because I trust that coffee. I trust the company. I know they know how to create and make an amazing coffee and it’s consistent. It tastes the same just like we know in business-to-business environments companies that will provide us with services we trust, or advice we trust, or products that are safe and secure to use, or are going to do what they say they’re going to do. So that’s how I got into it.” – NATALIE
“We all decide to trust. We make, as I mentioned, a subconscious decision. And we make that decision based on another person’s communication, how they behave, and how they service us. So, it really comes down to these three components, Nancy. So, when you and I are buying a product or service, we’re evaluating another person. And when we say we trust a company, well, companies, as we know, are made up of people. So as an example, when we are buying, say, professional services, like an engineering service, design services to ref- let’s say we’re going to renovate a factory, we would and we’re the business owner and we own this plant, this factory. Well, we would most likely talk to a few different engineering firms to get a design. And we would have conversations and as you know, because you know, this is what you share with your audience, it all comes down to conversations and connecting with people.” – NATALIE
Connect with Natalie Doyle Oldfield:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Natalie Doyle Oldfield, the president of Success Through Trust, Inc. and creator of the Client Trust Index. This index measures true customer sentiment and gives you customer insight in a quantifiable score. She has 25 years of experience in IT and has trained hundreds of technical team members to become trusted advisors to their clients. Natalie is also the author of The Power of Trust, How Top Companies Build, Manage, and Protect It. She was recently recognized as one of Canada’s most inspiring women entrepreneurs and has been named as one of the world’s top thought leaders in trust. Welcome to the show, Natalie. I trust this is going to be a great one, no pun intended.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Great to be here, Nancy. I’m so happy to be here. I know we tried to do this before, so this is so exciting to be here today with you and your listeners. [1:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, thanks for being patient, by the way. And I want to go back on being named one of the world’s top thought leaders in trust. Congratulations. How did that come about? And what did you do to earn it?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Well, thank you very much. I was named by an association called Trust Across America, Trust Around the World. And I was named actually for five consecutive years in a row. And each year I had a colleague, or a client nominate me. And focus 100% of my business on helping business owners grow by earning their customers and their employee’s unshakable trust. And I created a proprietary framework and a model, Nancy, to help people build these relationships of trust with their customers and colleagues. And I believe it’s this model that’s, you know, based on science and evidence and all this academic research and working with lots of folks and business owners around the world that makes me one of you know the people that they have awarded this to and it’s a great honor to be named one of the top world thought leaders in trust and yeah. [3:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Well, that’s a huge bravo to you and a huge accomplishment. I know you’ve said if there’s no trust, there’s no sale. So why is trust so important, especially as it relates to business?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Nancy, there is nothing more important than trust. And if we think about it, you know, your every single decision we make comes down to trust. First, we decide, do we trust? Then we decide, are we going to listen? Then we decide if we’re going to have a conversation. Then we’re going to decide if we’re going to look at someone’s capabilities. We decide this subconsciously. In fact, in every business relationship and personal relationship but in every business relationship because I know most of your listeners are working at either in a business or own a business or a leader in a business it’s in its involved in every single relationship, we have it’s the most important question everyone has. [4:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, I’m just thinking, I certainly don’t want to be around or be associated with people I don’t trust. So, you know, I guess my question is, what drew you to the science of trust? And why did you decide to focus on it?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: What a great question. Well, the short and long answer is I spent about 25 years working in various roles in companies that were either in product management or marketing or communications and in sales in a variety of different industries, but all in the IT industry to support people in financial services or education or hospitality. And what I saw was that the most successful companies all had something in common, Nancy, and I didn’t really know what it was. And several years ago in 2008, I was asked to take over while chief marketing officer for a company, a sales role. And I really was quite nervous about doing that, hesitant, let’s say. And didn’t really want to do it. Um, even though I love talking to customers and I love helping customers solve their problems. I’ve always loved that. And I’m curious and always want to help people grow their companies. So, um, eventually I did decide to take over and, um, then the market crashed in September 2008, and I was a month into this new role, and I really wanted to be successful in this new role and looked around and asked the folks that I knew who were very successful in successful companies, how is it that you sell? Like here I am in charge of sales, and I never did have any sales training. And all of them said, basically just keep focusing on the customer relationships, just keep providing value and do whatever you can do to help them out. So, we did, the entire team did, and then within 30-60 days, our sales started going back up. Well, and this was quite significant, Nancy, because our software we were selling to, the hospitality industry, and that industry, just like what happened during the pandemic, was really hard hit with the financial crisis. In the B2B world, people weren’t going to conventions and conferences, they stop traveling. That’s what they do when they cut expenses often. So fast forward, I thought, okay, well, we did all this, and it worked. We actually, not only did we retain customers, but we won some new customers by just focusing everyone on the team. I got so interested in how is it that customers decide to buy in a business-to-business environment that I actually went back to school. [7:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: And I did graduate research. And this is how I got into the science of trust. And I did a master’s in, and a thesis was all around, how is it in a business-to-business environment do people decide to buy? And I found out quite quickly, it all starts with trust. First, we decide to trust, then we decide to buy. And you know, lonely wolf, there’s a wonderful, very, very strong, much stronger than when I started 10 years ago, business case for learning and cultivating and developing relationships of trust. And, you know, worldwide, as we know, people buy from people they trust. Well, the fact is 80% of us buy from a company or an organization we trust. And we pay more. We pay more when we trust. If I’m going to go out for a coffee, I’m going to pay more for a Starbucks coffee because I trust that coffee. I trust the company. I know they know how to create and make an amazing coffee and it’s consistent. It tastes the same just like we know in business-to-business environment companies that will provide us with services we trust, or advice we trust, or products that are safe and secure to use, or are going to do what they say they’re going to do. So that’s how I got into it. [9:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, but what exactly is the science behind trust? I’m confused by that.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Well, we all decide to trust. We make, as I mentioned, a subconscious decision. And we make that decision based on another person’s communication, how they behave, and how they service us. So, it really comes down to these three components, Nancy. So, when you and I are buying a product or service, we’re evaluating another person. And when we say we trust a company, well, companies, as we know, are made up of people. So as an example, when we are buying, say, professional services, like an engineering service, design services to ref- let’s say we’re going to renovate a factory, we would and we’re the business owner and we own this plant, this factory. Well, we would most likely talk to a few different engineering firms to get a design. And we would have conversations and as you know, because you know, this is what you share with your audience, it all comes down to conversations and connecting with people. [10:49]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: And in order to connect, we have to trust. So, I’ll give you a quick example. I worked with, I worked with, I would say, medium-sized engineering firm in the US. And they focused, they do focus on doing design for factories and for, you know, they put in they have a lot of industrial engineers and mechanical engineers, and they focus on renovating plants and factories. And the owner, the senior managing partner of this firm, came to me and he said, you know, I’ve been getting a lot of complaints from my CFO, the head of finance, that our sales are down. I said, okay, your sales are down. And we’re not getting repeat business. See, typically what happens when we trust someone, we get repeat business, and we get referrals. So, he said, you know, someone suggested, another one of my clients, actually, Nancy, suggested we talk. I said, okay, well, tell me a little bit more. He said, well, here’s the problem. He said, our sales are down from our long-term customers. And I said, well, why do you think that is? He said, well, I don’t know. So, I said, well, let’s talk about your team because it all comes down to- I’ll share an example with you. I have a client, his name’s Richard, and he’s a managing partner of an engineering firm that focuses on renovating and refurbishing and bringing factories up to date to make them more efficient. And he shared with me that his sales were down and that he didn’t understand why they weren’t getting and keeping repeat customers. You see, in their world of professional services, a very large part of their revenue comes from retaining their customers, just doing more projects with the same customers. So, I said to him, it is. So, I said to him, well, tell me about your team. And the reason I said that, as you can imagine, is because trust is built in interactions with people. Companies are made up of people. So, he said, well, I have a great team. I have a lot of incredibly talented mechanical engineers, talented electrical engineers, talented project managers, junior design people, junior engineers, and they do an amazing job. I said, great. So, what else about them? Do they build confidence in the customers, in the conversations, and in the meetings? He said, well, no. He said that’s a real challenge for me. He said, you know, they’re so skilled, but they don’t know how to build relationships and they don’t know how to manage client expectations. And they’re not great communicators. He said, so, you know, not only are the sales down, he said, but he said, you know, I see new leads, expensive leads slipping away. So that was an issue. So, I said, okay, well, this is where we’re going to start. [14:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Right? Hmm.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: We’re going to talk about how to reskill and teach your team how to build unshakable trust with your customers, because when you have unshakable trust, Nancy, you get repeat customers and referrals all day, every day. So, Richard, the managing partner and the business partner, primary business owner, he joined this trusted leadership program that I have, an accelerator program with other business leaders and business owners. And we walk through how is it that customers, the clients decide to buy and how is it that they decide to trust. And we, he gained new tools and methodologies and then taught his team. See, when you teach your team how to build unshakable trust, they start building confidence in the customers. And it was fantastic because within weeks, I was going to say days, but really weeks. They, they started getting calls and Richard specifically said, got calls from some clients that, you know, sales were just flat and there weren’t new projects coming down the pipe. And clients were saying, you know, what’s going on with this person? What’s going on with that person? In fact, there was one guy, Matt, that was a very, you know, new junior engineer who really became a rock star because he really learned how to connect with customers. And so when you learn how to earn your customers trust, You get these referrals and the repeat business and they start talking about new projects and new referrals. And what I find so exciting is that it is a skill that can be learned, Nancy, and everybody can learn how to build a relationship or strengthen a relationship of trust. We can all cultivate and develop these skills. [16:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, how long does it take a person to really learn those skills?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Well, that’s a great question. And it depends. So, it depends. So, the, you know, some people, it’s quick, Nancy, because they realize it really starts with looking at and assessing your own trustworthiness. And it really starts with, you know, becoming self-aware how we are perceived by others, how we communicate. And so, you know, we have in all our programs, everything in all of the company programs, we have individual assessments that give people tools and ways to see what their communication style is, how, you know, what their strengths are, where the gaps are. And some people, it can take a couple of weeks. Some people, it can take hours. You know, I’m very practical, so we always have a lot of hands-on tools and assessments and exercises. And you know, it’s like any new skill. When you practice it and you focus on it and you’re deliberate, Nancy, big thing, right? It’s about being deliberately applying what you learn and practicing. We see turnarounds and complete transformations. Sometimes we, you know, I’m on a Zoom call in a program and you see the light bulb go off and the person’s changed forever. [18:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. It’s just amazing to me. I guess it’s your mindset. You must go into this being open-minded and it’s like developing a new habit, right?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Yeah. Yes, and it’s a hundred percent mindset. It starts with that. Nancy, I’m really glad you mentioned that. And part of that mindset is, as you said, being open. And the other part is beginning with the intention that you’re going to see the best and everyone’s trying their best and that everyone can be trustworthy. You know, I would never recommend that someone go in blindly and think, oh, you know, everybody’s trustworthy. And unfortunately, I do think that people are more skeptical now, Nancy, than ever before. I really see that. And because people are more skeptical, it means our customers are more skeptical. And it means that customers are demanding more transparency, right? They have much more access to information than they ever did before. And because they’re demanding this and they want the transparency and they want to know that people are acting in their best interests, the people and the companies that are focused on building relationships of trust are the ones that are going to be most successful. [20:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it makes so much sense. I cannot believe we’re up in time, Natalie. This is a topic that we could go on and on about, but my biggest takeaway is trust is just critical in life. And the sooner we all master the art of building trust, the happier and more successful our lives will be, right? I mean, that’s my takeaway.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So how can my people find you?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Well, my name, as I mentioned, is Natalie Doyle Oldfield. You can find me on LinkedIn at Natalie Doyle Oldfield. You can also find me on my website, which is www.successthroughtrust.com And if you go to www.successthroughtrust.com I actually have an assessment that you can download, complimentary to assess the trustworthiness of your team: https://api.leadconnectorhq.com/widget/form/e8onMX2YSfIm7b402bCi. So, there’s a number of questions there for you to go through and if you’re interested in learning more you can also sign up. I have a weekly newsletter that I send out with some information and some tips always and usually a tool or two around how to build trust and would love to hear from you. The last way you can find me is if you if you’re interested in really finding out about the science of trust and the power of trust, you can go to Amazon and find my book there, which is called, as you mentioned, The Power of Trust, How Top Companies Build, Manage and Protect It. So, lots of ways, Nancy would love to hear from you and or your listeners and continue this conversation. [22:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, listen, everyone out there, take advantage of Natalie’s generosity. I know that I’m going to get that newsletter. And it’s just in listening to you, I have a smile on my face because you get it. It’s all about trust everywhere. And as you said, it’s a more difficult time in the world these days. So, if you focus on trust, you’re focusing on something good that will make your days better. So, I want to thank everybody for taking a listen, reach out to Natalie. And again, Natalie, thanks so much for sharing your expertise. See you next time. [22:57]
