by Nancy Calabrese | Sep 25, 2024 | Podcast
About Drewbie Wilson: Drewbie Wilson is the Founder of Call The Damn Leads, where he empowers sales professionals through innovative tools like an e-commerce platform, a robust CRM, and educational resources designed to maximize success. Drewbie is a mindset and sales expert dedicated to helping individuals and businesses unlock their full potential. With a focus on personal growth and proven strategies, he has empowered countless clients to achieve remarkable success. Through his books “Crushing The Day” and “Social Media Mastery,” Drewbie shares insights on overcoming limiting beliefs, implementing effective sales systems, and mastering marketing techniques. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Drewbie.
In this episode, Nancy and Drewbie discuss the following:
- Description of the “call the damn leads” approach
- Why people avoid picking up the phone and calling the leads
- How to crush the day by calling the damn leads and create a version of success that makes them happy
- The number of leads that should be called daily and the importance of tracking metrics
- The importance of understanding the value of your time and using it wisely
- Drewbie’s advice to someone just starting in sales to overcome their fears
Key Takeaways:
- Everything in life has always come back to sales, for me personally.
- The one thing that I can always count on to get me a result in sales is to pick up the phone and call the damn leads.
- Sales is not always the most fun job, as there are many rejections and a lot of work.
- People want to do business with people. They don’t want to deal with robots.
- You have to keep filling the pipeline because if you go and harvest everything without putting anything new in the dirt, there will be nothing to harvest a little bit later.
“I like to take it one step further and look at it as I’m a servant first. We don’t have to get too into the religion or spiritual side of things. But ultimately, I look at myself on this planet as a servant first. And so, I’m going into every conversation looking at how I can serve this individual and leave them better off than when I entered this situation, whether helping them with a product or service or sharing some wisdom or knowledge. And to me, I think that’s a big differentiator; when you can get into a service-first mindset, you’re not calling to sell someone. You’re just calling to help. And it feels less transactional. And that’s where you can build relationships. And I’m sure you’ve talked about this before, but people buy from people they know, like, and trust. And I think that trust comes from the ability to communicate, “Hey, I understand you, and I want to help you,” because that’s why people do business with anyone. They want to get out of pain or get into pleasure. And so, if you can help to be the conduit for that situation, then the transaction is easy to occur.” – DREWBIE
“So, I started thinking about time, where I’m spending it, and what I’m spending it on, which led me to understand that I get to choose my own work. I get to pick how much my time is worth, where I spend it, and where I invest it. The difference is I must have the skillset and the confidence to show up and deliver that to someone else who’s going to be willing to pay me for my skillset, for my time, because time is our one true resource. You cannot buy it. You cannot win it in a poker tournament, as much as we’d love to get a box on Christmas or a card on our birthday. It never goes that way. So, that conversation sent me down a path of realizing that I get to decide what I do daily. And I get to decide where I spend my time, who I spend it with, and what I spend it on to know the kind of return I will get on that investment. As a sales professional, we aim to help prospects understand that the value of what they will receive far exceeds the price they will pay. So, when you can have that conversation with yourself about your time, it’s amazing what you can truly start to accomplish.” – DREWBIE
“Know what your time is truly worth. At the end of the day, that is the one thing I can encourage anyone to take stock of. What is your time worth now? And what would you need it to be worth to live the life that you want to live? It’s a matter of increasing your skill set or spending more time working doing what you do great. That’s it. It’s always a matter of what your time is worth. Where are you spending it? What are you spending it on? And who are you spending it with? Because that’s what’s going to end up being the recipe for the life that you get to live.” – DREWBIE
Connect with Drewbie Wilson:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Drewbie Wilson, the meme lord, the renowned branding expert and creator of the revolutionary call the damn leads approach and action. A taker with his finger on the pulse who focuses on service to others above all else, leading him to produce more than seven figures in revenue, no matter what industry he’s worked in. Not one to turn away from a challenge, he looks to get out of his comfort zone as much as possible. A servant first, operating with the utmost integrity and humility, but not afraid to tell it like it is. Confidence and empathy are his superpowers. Welcome to the show, Drewby. I’m going to love this conversation.
Drewbie Wilson: Nancy, thank you so much for having me and to the listener. Thank you for being here with us. I am grateful you’re investing a little bit of your time to be here with us today. And you’ll hear me talk a lot about that time is our most valuable asset. So, I’m excited to be spending a little bit of it with you here today, Nancy. [1:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Okay, call the damn leads approach. What is that about?
Drewbie Wilson: Well, it’s really a mantra for doing the work. I have been in sales for a little over two decades now. I’m coming up on my 36th birthday and I grew up in the streets selling anything and everything. As I got older, realized I didn’t want to be dead or in prison. You know, I got married, had a beautiful young son. Everything in life has always come back to sales for me personally. And the one thing that I can always count on to get me a result in sales is to pick up the phone and call the damn leads. And so ultimately for me, it’s, it’s kind of extended into many areas of my life, personally and professionally, but it is, it’s just a mantra for doing the dag gum work. And that’s what a lot of people are avoiding, unfortunately. So, I just like to shoot them straight and tell them what it’s going to take. [2:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Why do you think people avoid that?
Drewbie Wilson: Well, we could get into a couple different theories I have but first and foremost I think people are afraid of rejection which is one thing that prevents someone from picking up the phone and calling leads I think there are situations where someone is selling a product or service that they don’t 100 % believe in or trust which is hard because if you have to sell something to someone that you don’t believe in, there’s no confidence. And honestly, without confidence, it’s hard to deliver that enthusiasm or get someone else to have that faith and belief in it. And so, you know, on top of that, there’s something I think there’s that’s called imposter syndrome. You may or may not have heard that term before, but it’s that idea or feeling where, you know, you’re afraid to step up in front of someone or have a conversation because you don’t know everything. You know, we could go deep on how to me that’s a theory of integrity. But ultimately, I think the biggest thing is people get in their own way. [3:34]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, when I think about picking up the phone and calling the leads, I think of it as phone networking versus face -to -face networking. And, you know, when you go to a networking event, you’re really meeting strangers, right? Shaking their hands, but you don’t know them. And picking up the phone is the same concept. You may not know them if it’s, say, a cold call or a lead that somebody gave you, but it’s a form of introduction. What do you have to say about that?
Drewbie Wilson: I like to take it one step further and look at it as I’m a servant first. You know, we don’t have to get too into the religion or spiritual side of things. But ultimately, I look at myself on this planet as a servant first. And so, I’m going into every conversation, looking at how can I serve this individual and leave them better off than when I entered this situation, whether that’s helping them with a product or service, sharing some sort of wisdom or knowledge. And to me, I think that’s a big differentiator is that when you can get into a service first mindset, you’re not calling to sell someone. You’re literally just calling to help. And it feels less transactional. And that’s where you can really build relationships. And I’m sure you’ve talked about this before, but people buy from people who they know, like and trust. And I think that trust comes from the ability to communicate, hey, I understand you and I want to help you because that’s why people do business with anyone. They want to get out of pain or get into pleasure. And so, if you can help to be the conduit for that situation, then the transaction is easy to occur. [5:28]
Nancy Calabrese: So, describe to the audience how to crush the day, yes, by calling the damn leads and creating a version of success that makes them happy. How will that make them happy?
Drewbie Wilson: You know, I, well, I appreciate you asking. This is one of the things, you know, those mantras crushed the day before it crushes you called a damn lead. Again, it’s kind of a, all comes back to doing the work and what I have learned, you know, if you go and check out, I’ve written a couple of books or if you, you know, listen to some of my other podcasts that I’ve done, I talk about at one point in my life, I weighed over 300 pounds and I had to go on a really big physical weight loss journey. At one point I was very unhappy, unfulfilled in my job. So, I had to go on a personal development journey. And for me, crushing the day is where it all started to, hey, I’m going to wake up and I’m going to be intentional with my time first, because at one point in my life, and some of you may relate to this, I was very reactionary. The alarm went off, so I got up and I did the things and then something happened. So, I did the thing. And then there was another fire that I had to put out in another fire. And I was just reacting to everything that came at me instead of being proactive and intentional. And so, crushing the day is if I know I wake up on time, I read, I meditate, I focus on gratitude, and then I go do the things that I know need to be done first. That to me is crushing the day. And if I can avoid the negative news, the toxic, politish, you know, political nonsense, things that go on and, and avoid the toxicity of social media. Well, those are the things that will crush you. If you’ve ever opened up the news first thing in the morning and its bad news, bad news, bad news, maybe one small clip of a good thing, but then right back to the bad news, it’s easy to let that energy kind of just throw your whole day off. So, to crush today is really to just be intentional with your time know that you’re doing the things that are moving you forward towards the life that you want. And ultimately, that’s what’s going to create happiness because you’re going to get the result that you’re looking for. [7:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, you know, and, you know, as it relates to sales, I think it’s important to focus on the activities that you can control each and every day that will help you move the bar, right? Get closer to hitting your goals. I’m curious, is there a story the audience would find interesting? You sound like you’ve had a real interesting life so far.
Drewbie Wilson: Nancy, I could tell you about 10, 12 hours worth of stories if we had all day, but we only have about 18 to 20 minutes for the sake of time. So let me start with this. at a point in my life, like I said, I grew up in the streets running and gun and doing all the things we’re not supposed to. So, I’m very blessed to even be here to begin with. But there was a conversation I had with another Nancy, funny enough at one point where I was starting to learn marketing. I was great at sales, and I realized, hey, if I don’t learn how to generate my own leads, I’m always going to be limited by what’s provided to me. And not that I wasn’t doing okay, but as you know, good will steal from great every chance it gets. So, I decided to go out and learn marketing. And I was like, if I can just get more leads, I can sell more stuff and make more money. So that’s what I started doing. And I had a little success with that. And this wonderful woman named Nancy, she reached out to me, and she said, Hey, Drewbie I see you’re, you’re using this software that I’m also using. How much for an hour of your time to show me a few things on what you’re doing. And what a humbling question that was for me, because at the time, you know, I grew up 10 bucks an hour was kind of grunt labor. Like that’s what you made. If you didn’t have any education and you just did like hard labor, you made 10 bucks an hour in sales at the time. I think I was making 25 bucks an hour. So, I was like, you know, for a kid who barely graduated and came out of the streets, like that’s not too bad. However, if I was working overtime or on a holiday, they’d pay me double time, time and a half. So, I’m doing this set like hourly mindset math. And I realized, okay, well my time’s worth $50. And Nancy says, well, I’m gonna give you 75. I thought that’s amazing. I’ll take it, right? I’m not gonna say no to that. That’d be silly. And so we have the call. She sends me the Venmo for 75 bucks. And I remember messaging my wife and going, this is amazing. How do I do this? Like three times a day. And I would make in one day what it takes me a week to make currently. So, I started thinking about time and where I’m spending it and what I’m spending it on, which led me to understanding that I get to choose my own work. I get to pick how much my time is worth and where I spend it, where I invest it, the difference is I must have the skillset and the confidence to show up and deliver that to someone else who’s going to be willing to pay me for my skillset for my time, because time is our one true resource. You cannot buy it. You cannot win it in a poker tournament as much as we’d love to get a box of it on Christmas or a card of it on our birthday. It never goes that way. So that one conversation sent me down a path of realizing that I get to make the decisions of what I do every day. And I get to decide where I spend my time, who I spend it with and what I spend it on to know the kind of return I’m going to get on that investment. And as a sales professional, our whole goal is to help prospects understand that the value of the thing they’re going to receive far exceeds what the price they’re going to pay is. So, when you can have that conversation with yourself about your time, it’s amazing what you can truly start to accomplish. [11:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Wow. That’s really awesome. Is there anything in particular you want me to spotlight about your company and what you do?
Drewbie Wilson: I mean, I think the most important about my company, you know, call the damn leads. Our whole goal is just to be a reminder for sales professionals and business owners everywhere. Listen, sales are not always the most fun job is a lot of rejection. It’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of nos, but at the same time, it’s so fulfilling. There are so many amazing things that can happen. It doesn’t matter where you come from, what background you have, if you’re willing to trust the process and do the work to call the damn leads, you can have any life that you want. And so that to me is the spotlight. It’s not about me or the company. It’s about the individual who’s listening to us today, investing their time to learn something that could help them better their life. So, to me, if you want to spotlight anyone. Spotlight the listener for investing a little of their time with us today so that they can learn and grow because they’re the next future They’re the ones that I hope to get to listen to at some point because I always want to learn as well. [12:47]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, that’s really cool. Do you have a recommendation how many leads should be called on a daily basis?
Drewbie Wilson: You know, I have a personal metric that has worked well for me for the last 10 years in like regular sales. And it’s this, I always look to make at least a hundred outbound contact attempts a day. And that could be phone calls, text messages, emails. You might send, you know, direct messages on social media, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, wherever. You might also do in -person meetups, right? But a hundred attempts every day to have a conversation. Cause out of those hundred attempts, my goal is to have 10 good conversations. That means that I’ve built rapport. I’ve gone through all of my pre -qualifying questions to determine if this person is a good fit for our product or service. And then I’ve made a, a presentation to move forward with the next step. So, it’s kind of like I’ve made an offer. Maybe I’ve sent a contract, maybe not, but we’re moving forward in the next process of those 10. I want to get two sales. And so, it may sound like a lot of Nancy, right? 110 to is like, my gosh, that’s a lot of work every day. But the truth is out of a normal month, I’m working anywhere from 20 to 22 days, right? For, you know, Monday through Friday, maybe a Saturday here and there, about 20, 22 days a month. So, during those workdays, I want to get two out of the three of those metrics on any given day. And I know that at the end of the month, it’s going to add up to success because you might make a hundred contacts and not have a lot of conversations, but you might close a couple of deals or you might have 10 good conversations and close to sales, but you don’t have a chance to go and make a hundred contact attempts. I understand time is very limited. You must have a real good conversation, it takes 20 minutes, 30 minutes, sometimes longer. So, it’s all a matter of just hitting those metrics on a consistent basis. Because if I’m doing that day after day after day, I’m planting a few seeds on this day, then I’m nurturing them, then I’m harvesting them, then I’m planting some new seeds where those were harvested, right? You’re consistently filling the pipeline. And that’s the key to long -term sales are you have to keep filling the pipeline because if you just go and harvest everything without putting anything new in the dirt, well, there’s going to be nothing to harvest a little bit later. So, it’s always about finding that balance of a hundred, ten, two, and getting two of the three of those on any given day. Hopefully that made sense. [15:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. I mean, and do you actually track those metrics?
Drewbie Wilson: Yes, ma ‘am. If it gets measured, it can be improved. And I think that’s a thing that a lot of professionals are missing out on right now is they’re just guessing how much work they’re doing without having a solid tracking or a measurement system. And I could tell you without fail, if you woke up and got on the scale every day, you would notice whether you were doing the work or not.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Drewbie Wilson: Same thing, if you look at your bank account right now, if the number’s lower than you’d like it to be, it’s because you’re not calling the damn leads. It’s because you’re not doing the work. And so it’s always a math problem at that point. [16:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Drewbie Wilson: I think that it’s still really important to pick up the phone and call the damn leads. I think a lot of people are saying that, well, texting is better, or emails are better. But at the end of the day, it’s easy to hide behind a keyboard and use AI and all these fancy tools that exist. But you know what’s still the bottom line? People want to do business with people. They don’t want to deal with robots. They don’t like the kiosk. They want to know there’s someone at the other end of that conversation that they can truly speak with and have a relationship with. That’s my belief. Not everybody agrees, but it is what it is. [16:59]
Nancy Calabrese: You’re not gonna replace the human conversation with all this technology out there. It’s just, it’s that exchange of information between two human beings cannot be replaced by AI and all the other things, you know, online. You know, I can’t believe we’re almost up in time. What is the one takeaway you wanna leave the audience with, Drewbie?
Drewbie Wilson: To know what your time is truly worth. At the end of the day, that is the one thing that if I can encourage anyone to truly take stock in, it’s what is your time worth now? And what would you need it to be worth to live the life that you wanna live? Because it’s a matter of increasing your skillset or spending more time working doing the thing that you do great. That’s it. It’s always a matter of what is your time worth? Where are you spending it? What are you spending it on? And who are you spending it with? Because that’s what’s going to end up being the recipe for the life that you get to live. [18:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I guess now you’ve triggered another thought. How does somebody figure out what their time is worth?
Drewbie Wilson: So, it’s a math problem, like everything in life. Here’s what I always tell my clients. This is usually the first thing that we do when we start working together is take all of the money that you made last year as a total. So, your day job, if you work a W -2 job, take all of that money. If you have a side gig or you have, you know, little hustles that you do where you make a couple bucks on the side, even if you’re not reporting it, I’m not here to judge you. I’m just saying take all that and add it up because you spent the time to earn that money. Maybe you have one of those spicy websites where you share pictures of your feet or something. I don’t know. I’m not judging. Just take all the money that you made and add it up as a total. And then you want to divide that total by 2000. And here’s why. Because if you worked a typical job, Monday through Friday, nine to five, 40 hours a week, you’d work 50 weeks a year. Cause you get your two weeks of vacation time, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That would be an average individual. If you’re here with us today, you’re not average. You’re taking the time to learn and grow. So I already know you’re not average, but if you were, you’d work 2000 hours a year. So quick math, if you made a hundred grand last year and you worked 2000 hours, your time is worth $50 an hour. That may not be terrible, but here’s where I really trip you up, Nancy. Let’s say I put on a black cape, and I come knock on the door and I say, Hey, congratulations, Nancy. My name is death. You have 24 hours left to live. Your time is worth $50 an hour. Here’s 50 bucks. I need you to come with me. What are you gonna say? [19:49]
Nancy Calabrese: No way Jose!
Drewbie Wilson: I mean, I could think of several different, you know, very, very mean things that I would want to say to that person if they were me in that situation. However, here’s what I know. A lot of people are operating as if they have an unlimited amount of time. Nobody knows for sure when that their end of their clock runs out. No one can say for sure, but everyone still runs around and says, I’ll do that later; I’ll do that thing when; I’ll take that trip after. But how you know for sure you’re going to get there. And so, the thing that’s interesting to me is that at a certain number though, you’re going to be willing to exchange that hour because you realize money is a tool, is a resource that we use to get the things that we want in life, to share the things that we want with the people we care about. So, you just must determine what is that number for me that I’m willing to exchange my time for. And if it isn’t like the monetary dollar amount, what does the exchange have to be for me? Like, what do I have to get out of that time invested for it to be worth it to me? Because maybe your time is invested with your friends, with your family, at church, doing good for the homeless, whatever it is that brings you joy, I encourage you to do that. But know, what is your time worth and what’s the return on the investment that you’re getting for it? [21:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, powerful stuff. How can my people find you?
Drewbie Wilson: The best way to find me, you can go to calledadamleeds .com. You can just Google call the damn leads. We’re on every social media platform that you could find us on, whether that’s Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, I hit all the major places. So, wherever you like to hang out, go to call the damn leads. You’ll find us. We’re there. We’re always giving away tons of valuable content for sales professionals. And more than anything, if there’s something you heard today that you got value out of, I’d love to hear about it 30 days from now and see how it’s truly affected your life by implementing because that’s the most important part. You can hear it. You can think it’s awesome, but if you don’t take action on it, unfortunately you won’t get the results. So let me be the reminder for you that if you heard something great, the first thing you should do is go take action and review this episode for Nancy and let everybody know that you appreciated her taking the time, energy and effort to make this show possible because as a host myself, Nancy, I appreciate that you go above and beyond to share your time and your resources. So, if anyone got anything of value, do me that favor first, go follow Nancy and share the show because that’s what’s going to help us get in front of more great people. [22:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Love it, love it. Drewbie, you are fantastic. And actually, I want to be on your podcast. I went on your website. So, I sent you a note earlier. Folks, reach out to Drewbie. He’s an expert. I love Call the Damn Leads. We have a lot in common. So, for all of you people out there, pick up that phone and make it a great sales day. [22:55]
by Nancy Calabrese | Sep 12, 2024 | Podcast
About Tom Latourette: Tom Latourette has been a disciple of the M3 Learning process since 2000 when he was the VP of Sales and Marketing at SBR, Inc. With over 30 years of marketing, sales, and sales management experience, Tom can bring a unique, real-world perspective to your M3 Learning experience. His knowledgeable application of ProActive solutions can greatly impact your productivity as a sales manager or salesperson. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Tom.
In this episode, Nancy and Tom discuss the following:
- The importance of practical, bottom-line sales tools for both sales reps and managers to improve performance
- The importance of understanding what activities top performers do daily to replicate success across the team
- Challenges in managing senior salespeople and the importance of aligning their goals with their personal “why”
- Using proactive solutions, like the COD method (Cause, Outcome, Decide), to guide sales discovery calls effectively
- The value of consultative selling over feature-based selling by focusing on uncovering client needs before pitching solutions
Key Takeaways:
- One of the biggest things is that space of really understanding what creates success in your organization.
- When I’m interviewing salespeople, I watch how they handle the interview because they will interview the same way that they will sell.
- Ask a few good outcome questions and ensure you’re finding out their decision-making process.
- We’ve got to do kind of a yin and yang. Sometimes, we have to answer the question but ensure we’re flipping.
“And our answer was, well, Rich always hits his goal. That’s what A players do. That’s what high performers do. We didn’t have to worry about Rich. And he goes, “Great. Great, I get it. But let me ask you guys a question. You’re sitting here at this two-day leadership training program. We’re going to be talking about a lot of great stuff. But what’s Rich doing today? What’s he doing to make success happen 12 months from now?” And, Nancy, we couldn’t answer that question. We didn’t know. We couldn’t answer the question. Rich was already a really good salesperson. We didn’t know. We didn’t feel we could bring anything to the table for him. But what Skip helped us see was that if we couldn’t articulate what success looked like, what the steps a successful salesperson was doing daily, then as a leadership team, or even as a company, we couldn’t hire more Riches. We couldn’t coach the rest of our people to be like Rich. And maybe we were going to lose Rich because he’s watching us spend all of our time with our non-performers, trying to help them get better. Right? And that was a big moment. I remember midway through my career, I felt like my mind expanded and really got to that space of “What are things? How do I get my people to do the right things? And what are those things that they need to do? And how do we do more of them?” – TOM
“Ithink, one, you know, probably one of the biggest things we have to do a better job of as leaders, not just of salespeople but leaders of humans, as other people, is. I think sales leaders often don’t understand the “why” behind the humans we’re working with. One of the questions I like to ask sales leaders I work with is, “Tell me why this person wants to perform better. What are they striving for?” You know, the great thing about Rich was that on January 1st of every year, Rich would take a picture of what he would spend his commission check on at the end of the year. And so, one year, it was a new truck. The next year, it was a hot tub. The year after that, it was a new deck. And so, as Rich’s leader, every time I’d work with Rich, I’d go, “Hey Rich, what are we working towards today? What are we working towards this year?” And then I could get alignment on helping him achieve his goals, right? So, I think the first thing, Nancy, is we have to be better humans aligned with our people and understand their “why” better. What is it about this job? What about the goal they’re setting for themselves that is important to them? I don’t know if that makes sense, and it seems like a soft skill, but I see that too many leaders don’t know the answer to that.” – TOM
“Think about your relationship with a client much like your relationship on a first date. A first date is not about telling you how great I am; it’s about uncovering what you’re looking for. The objective of a first date is to determine if a second date makes sense. Then, after a second date, you determine if a third date makes sense, and so on, until a strong relationship is formed. One of the things we talk about is getting salespeople out of the space where they think people want to be educated. People don’t want to be educated; they want to be validated. Good discovery is about validating your needs and allowing you to be heard. I think salespeople have to get better at discovery, asking better, deeper questions, and being okay with asking before they tell.” – TOM
Connect with Tom Latourette:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Tom Latourette, managing partner and certified trainer of M3 Learning, a company dedicated to empowering sales professionals with practical, bottom line sales tools that help them take control of the sales process, improve performance, and drive measurable results in organizations worldwide. With over 30 years of marketing, sales, and sales management experience, Tom is able to bring a unique real world perspective to your M3 learning experience. His knowledgeable application of the proactive solutions can make a big impact on your productivity, either as a sales manager or a sales person. Welcome to the show, Tom. Let’s get started.
Tom Latourette: Nancy, thank you. First, thank you so much. Thanks for that great introduction. And yeah, I’m pleased to be here and I can’t wait to love these conversations. [1:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, me too, especially when I speak with other sales experts. So, you know, what really jumped out at me is you have you use practical bottom-line sales tools that are really helpful to sales reps and managers. So, can you describe what they are?
Tom Latourette: Yeah, you know, probably the best way to describe. So, I’m a little bit. I’ve been doing this for a while and probably about 21 years ago, I was the vice president of sales for a large vinyl window company. We were about a hundred-million-dollar company and one of my regional managers. So I had 50 salespeople, five regional managers. One of my regional managers read this book called Proactive Sales Management by this guy, Skip Miller. So, we hired Skip to come in. He’s going to work with our regional management team. Skip sits down. Nancy, I remember thinking, I was probably about 36, 37. We had grown sales about 25, 30 % a year. I remember thinking that this gentleman is going to be so impressed with me and my sales leadership skills. He’s going to write a chapter about me in his next book. And so, he sits us down and he says, it’s myself and my five regional managers. And he says, Hey, let me ask you, who’s your best salesperson? And we go, that’s Rich Fenlock. Rich was our number one salesperson for three years in a row. And Skip goes, great, great. Why is he your best salesperson? And Nancy, of course, you know, the answer we gave him was, well, Rich sells the most. That’s why he’s our number one salesperson. That skip was great, great, great. I get it. Let me ask you another question. How do you guys know Rich is going to hit his goal 12 months from now? And our answer was, well, Rich always hits his goal. That’s what A players do. That’s what high performers do. We didn’t have to worry about Rich. And he goes, great. Great, I get it. But let me ask you guys a question. You’re sitting here at this two -day leadership training program. We’re going to be talking about a lot of great stuff. But what’s Rich doing today? What’s he doing right now to make success happen 12 months from now? And Nancy, we couldn’t answer that question. We didn’t know. We couldn’t answer the question. Rich was already a really good salesperson. We didn’t know. We didn’t feel like we could bring anything to the table for him, but what Skip helped us see. Was that if we couldn’t articulate what success looked like, what the steps that a successful salesperson was doing on a daily basis, then as a leadership team, or even as a company, we couldn’t hire more riches. We couldn’t coach the rest of our people to be like rich. And maybe we’re going to lose rich because he’s watching us spend all of our time with our non -performers trying to help them get better. Right. And that was a big, I remember midway in my career, I felt like my mind expanded and really got to that space of what are the things, how do I get my people to do the right things and what are those things that they need to do and how do we do more of them? Does that make sense, Nancy? [4:58]
Nancy Calabrese: Absolutely. I mean, you know, the one thing that I’ve learned in sales is you want to do the activities that you can control. It’s all activity based. So that’s really interesting. So how did you then go back to this guy, Rich, and learn what he does each and every day?
Tom Latourette: What a great question. And so what we did is, I remember this, Nancy, we fly Rich in to the office. You know, he’s a high performer. We’re going to pick Rich’s brain. We’re going to, you know, we bring them in. We’re rich. We got two days. And you know, Nancy, Rich couldn’t answer that question because Rich just did it in his gut. There was that space. I mean, we see that a lot with high performers, right? They, they don’t like when you ask them to articulate what they did. It was really hard for them to do. So, what we saw, what Skip really helped us see, that a lot of times our job as leaders, our job as the manager, as Rich’s manager, wasn’t necessarily to you know, coach rich or to make him better. It was to observe what he does so that we could then replicate that throughout the rest of the organization. And so all of a sudden we started, we started, we were very purposeful about looking at, rich asks this question all the time when he’s meeting somebody for the first time, or he uses this piece of literature. He goes in and has this conversation about a feature or benefit that was important to a client. We recognize that those were things we could teach. And so, you know, that space of really helping salespeople understand what are those things that I do that are creating success or moving the ball forward? How do I keep replicating those, you know? [6:52]
Nancy Calabrese: Let me ask you this, and I think a challenge for many business owners and sales leaders, when you are dealing with a senior level salesperson, how do you manage them? A lot, in my experience, they’re not open to, not always open to be managed, that’s number one, or not always open to continue training because they feel they know it all. So, what are your thoughts on that?
Tom Latourette: Yeah, you know, I think one, you know, probably one of the biggest things we have to do a better job of as leaders of not just salespeople, but leaders of humans as other people is. I think too many times sales leaders don’t understand the why behind the humans that we’re working with. You know, one of the questions I like to ask sales leaders I work with is, tell me why this person wants to perform better. What are they striving for? You know, the great thing about Rich was on January 1st of every year, Rich would take a picture of what he was going to spend his commission check on at the end of the year. And so, one year it was a new truck. The next year it was a hot tub. The year after that it was a new deck. And so, as Rich’s leader, every time I’d work with Rich, I’d go, hey Rich, what are we working towards today? What are we working towards this year? And then I could get alignment on helping him achieve his goals, right? So, I think the first thing, Nancy, is we just have to be better humans aligned with our people and understand their why better. What is it about this job? What is it about the goal that they’re setting for themselves that is important to them? I don’t know if that makes sense and it seems like a soft skill, but I see that too many leaders don’t know the answer to that. [8:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, so Tom, my experience is, and I hear this complaint time and time again from sales leaders and business owners that they just don’t, I guess, attract or recruit the right type of sales candidates that are good for the company. How important is like a cultural fit even versus who they know when you hire a producer or sales rep.
Tom Latourette: That’s a great question. Yeah, I would agree completely. I mean, I think, you know, one of the one of the biggest things is that that space of really understanding what creates success in your organization. What are the activities I need people to do? What are the behaviors? What are the how do they need to be wired? If I can articulate that powerfully, that helps me in my hiring. It helps me in my onboarding. But I think a lot of times we go a lot of leaders will go by gut and go, I like this person instead of really thinking about the science behind it. You know I’m a big fan of a lot of the tools that are available to help you maybe do some assessments things like that before but I but I also caution that you have to use those as tools and not as you know absolutes, right. I think a lot of times, sometimes the best exercise I’ve seen is you give candidates, especially people that you want to hire, give them a project, give them something. Hey, come to the next interview and pretend you’re doing a sales call and watch how they operate. They plan a sales call. In fact, if anything, especially when I’m interviewing for salespeople, watch how they handle the interview because they’re going to interview the same way that they’re going to sell and getting them out of that space of, one of the things we teach is watch for how people flip you. We call it the flip. When I answer a question, ask another question. You know, I continue the conversation. Too many salespeople have one -sided conversations and you can watch that in an interview. You can see how well somebody’s going to do that in an interview. How well do they prepare for the interview? How well do they follow up? What do they, you know, if you don’t reply to them for four or five days, what’s their follow -up structure look like? I can’t tell you how many salespeople in my career that I’ve realized have not been a good fit because they got too pushy or they didn’t get pushy enough. Does that make sense? [11:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah, really. Let’s talk about proactive solutions. What is that?
Tom Latourette: You know, so one of the philosophies that Skip taught, so Skip Miller has written seven books. I don’t know if you knew Skip, but he passed away last year. And so it’s been, you know, an interesting space for our organization. We kind of feel like a 28 year old startup, but one of the reasons I liked Skip so much and I worked with him for 20 years was that he took a tool -based philosophy, tool -based methodology to these sales conversations. How do we help a salesperson becomes strategic in their discovery. What would a tool look like? And so, you know, a good example is one of the things that we teach is on a discovery call, you’ve got to uncover cause, outcome, and decide. We call it COD. And getting a salesperson getting really good at what’s the cause? Why are we having this conversation in the first place? What’s happening for business in your organization? And don’t just accept that first answer. You want to dive down into that. Tell me more about that. How is that impacting your business, your organization? How’s it impacting your team? You can uncover a lot before you go into, let me tell you how great we are. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that’s call me. Then outcomes. What are the positive outcomes you need to see and what are the negative outcomes you need to avoid? And getting in a conversation about that in discovery really starts uncovering the clients’ issues and the challenges and the problems, what they can afford to overcome and what they can’t. And then lastly, that space of not just who’s making the decision, you know, too many times we see salespeople, who’s the decision maker. Instead of asking a what’s your decision-making process? How do you get how does this organization go making decisions? Those are tools that you can easily teach a salesperson and go, okay Your next discovery call, ask a few good cause questions, ask a few good outcome questions and make sure you’re finding out what their decision-making process is. And creating questions behind that then creates a place where I can become more proactive and intentional. [14:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, you know, you kind of touched on this a few minutes ago. What are your thoughts on these two forms of selling features and benefits and consultative selling?
Tom Latourette: Yeah, it’s a great question. I mean, I think, yeah, one of the things that we try to caution salespeople about is, you know, too many times we walk in and the client pushes us to education. They start the conversation, hey, we’ve done all of our research. We like what you guys do. Tell us why you’re better than X or how you can help us. And we launch into, because the plan asked us, we figure our job is to answer their question. And then we talk for 40 minutes about what we can do and how we can do it. And let me show you a demo. And we jump right over discovery. We jump, the energy in that conversation is, why are we having this conversation in the first place? What’s broken? What needs to be fixed? What’s happening? And so, cause, outcome, decide. We’ve got to find out what’s the problem and what’s the size of that problem. Our belief is Nancy, I shouldn’t even be talking about features and benefits until I understand why it would be of value to you. And I can’t do that unless I operate like a consultant or a strategic partner. I need to uncover and I need to ask questions. Now, as you know, the challenge is a lot of clients push us to education. They believe that they’ve done a lot more research. And so we’ve got to do kind of a yin and yang that’s sometimes we’ve got to answer the question but make sure we’re flipping. We’ve got to give a short 30 second 45 second answer and then okay tell me more you know give me some more information. So, we have to make that a two -way conversation right? [16:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Well, it’s kind of like, you know, when you go to a doctor, they don’t diagnose you immediately. They have to ask you a lot of questions before they can offer a solution. Same thing, right?
Tom Latourette: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the problems in the answer, I was just going to say, I think what happens a lot of times too is maybe I’m, you know, if I’m a new salesperson, I’m talking to some people who maybe have been in their position or been in their industry for as long as I’ve been alive. And so, there’s a space where maybe I don’t feel confident or comfortable asking those questions. But I’ll tell you, if I could go back to my 25-30 year old self, what I would tell myself is I would say, you know, the thing I’m recognizing is it’s not so important what you say, but it’s really what I get you to say and the questions I ask so that you talk more than me. And that’s a skill that you have to teach young salesperson and young salespeople. But then Nancy, you also talked, I think the challenge with veterans is they’ve become so good at it that they want to short circuit the process instead of really doing the discovery and the uncovering that they know they need to do it. They just don’t do a good enough job of it, right? [18:10]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Yeah. You know, it’s the old 70 -30 % rule, right? 70 % of the time, clients should be talking. 30 % should be the sales rep. You know, I can’t believe I’m really enjoying our discussion, but we’re out of time. Let me, let’s, one more question. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience?
Tom Latourette: This has been great, Nancy. Thank you so much. Yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So what’s the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with, Tom?
Tom Latourette: Yeah, probably the biggest takeaway in this conversation, I think, is, you know, think about your relationship with a client, much like your relationship on a first date. You know, a first date is really not about me telling you how great I am. It’s really about uncovering what you’re looking for. And, you know, the objective of a first date is to determine if a second date makes sense. And then after a second date, it’s the third date makes sense. And so, and on and on until a strong relationship is formed getting salespeople out of that space of one of the things we talk about is people don’t want to be educated. They want to be validated. And so that space of good discovery is validating your needs, allowing you to be heard. And so I think salespeople just have to get better at discovery, asking better, deeper questions and being okay asking before they tell. [19:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, love it, love it, love it. How can my people find you, Tom?
Tom Latourette: So definitely on LinkedIn, our website is m3learning .com. We’ve got a really robust community, but I’d love to connect with anybody on LinkedIn. And I answer on LinkedIn all the time. It’s probably the best way. And my email address is tom at m3learning .com. Cell phone number is 847 -528 -2738. And I just, you know, our goal is to help as many salespeople as we can and sales leaders, but this helping, you know, really feel better about those conversations. [20:42]
Nancy Calabrese: Wonderful. And by the way, Tom’s last name is spelled L A T O U R E T T E. Tom, you are fantastic. I really appreciate you spending time with me and my audience. And I hope we get to continue this conversation at another time for all you sales reps out there and leaders. He is, he’s wonderful. You really have so much wisdom. So, take advantage of his expertise and reach out to Tom. And until we meet again, make it an awesome sales day, everyone, and we’ll speak soon. [21:27]
by Nancy Calabrese | Sep 6, 2024 | Podcast
About Adi Klevit: Adi is the leader and visionary of Business Success Consulting Group. Her twenty-five years of knowledge and experience as a trained Industrial Engineer, management consultant, and business executive give her a unique understanding of the challenges businesses face. Adi utilizes her practical know-how and wisdom to help organizations and companies of any size dramatically improve their efficiency and performance. By leveraging her ability to understand business processes as well as people and drawing on her high-caliber skills in vital areas of personnel management, finance, and operations, Adi can help virtually any business owner achieve their goals and bring order to their lives. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Adi.
In this episode, Nancy and Adi discuss the following:
- The importance of well-documented processes
- The process of mapping and documenting client processes
- Identifying pain points that signal the need for process documentation.
- The impact of documented processes on business efficiency and growth
- The role of process documentation in employee training and retention
- Adi’s unique team approach and company scaling
Key Takeaways:
- You will be surprised how many growing companies do not have processes and procedures in place.
- The adaptability that you have to have doesn’t mean the processes are bad.
- Don’t be afraid to start process documentation. Just start doing it. Don’t make it complex.
“The first thing that we do is we make sure that they have the mindset that processes and procedures will be used throughout the company. That’s number one. Number two is that we have to make sure that the documented procedures and processes are accessible and written in such a format that everybody can follow them. So that’s very important because if they are stored somewhere, nobody knows where it’s very hard to follow and implement them. Then, we have a rollout process. It’s a five-step rollout process, very specific, that intends to train everybody on those procedures and also make sure that there is buy-in and that every person understands the importance of having those processes documented. The next step after that is ensuring those processes are being utilized and used in day-to-day management. In terms of what we also do, we ensure that there are regular reviews of those processes and that regular review is either driven by time.” – ADI
“I think what sets us apart is that we have a strong team. And my idea is that you know, I can’t be a solo practitioner. I have a team—a team of writers, a team of consultants, marketing, and sales. You know, I feel like I need to walk the walk, not just talk the talk, right? And I managed to scale my company. I managed to increase it, to make it bigger. All of that allows us to take on more and more clients, and we continually improve our own processes. We want to deliver a great product for our clients, and we do. So that is pretty unique.” – ADI
“You know, I think it’s important to have well-documented processes and procedures that all follow. I think that is extremely important. It’s something that people should look at, and having somebody do it for you is going to make a huge difference. Because, as one of my clients just said—and again, you can also watch her video on our website—she said if she tried to do it herself, she would still be on procedure number four. And, you know, I hear it over and over again. So, in terms of expediting things and increasing the organization, I recommend that you document your processes and procedures. And if you need help, contact us.” – ADI.
“Processes and procedures are not boring; they can actually be pretty exciting because they give you freedom, you know? That’s another truism—it does give you freedom. And people sometimes think that it’s restrictive, especially creative people. They might think that having processes and procedures is a restrictive activity, but the truth is, it’s not. Because if you don’t have your processes and procedures well-documented, that’s restrictive because then you have to reinvent the wheel every single time.” – ADI
Connect with Adi Klevit:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Transcript
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Adi Klevit, CEO and founder of Business Success Consulting Group where they identify, create and document processes and procedures so the business can grow and scale. Adi’s 25 years of knowledge and experience as a trained industrial engineer, management consultant, and business executive give her a unique understanding of the challenges businesses face. Adi utilizes her practical know -how and wisdom to successfully help organizations and companies of any size dramatically improve their efficiency and performance. And finally, Adi can help virtually any business owner achieve their goals and bring order to their lives. Welcome to the show Adi, let’s get started.
Adi Klevit: Yes! Thank you, Nancy, I’m so happy to be here! [1:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I mean, I love being on your podcast, so I couldn’t wait for us to do this. And, you know, I want to talk about your specialty and the importance of having systems in place and a process. I guess for starters, do you find many companies don’t have that in place?
Adi Klevit: You know, it, yeah, that is, that is the case. You know, we work with fast growing companies at the lacking consistency, and you will be surprised how many do not have those processes and procedures in place. [2:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, you know, I’m really shocked and I know it’s important, right? Documentation, implementation. And so, describe how it’s important for all of us to have that.
Adi Klevit: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, if you think about it, look at a company, if they are growing, they’re adding more personnel, they are selling more, et cetera, and they don’t have the systems to support it, I mean, that can create problems. [2:30]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. I mean, do you find that the systems are the same from company to company or do they vary?
Adi Klevit: You know, there are basic systems that are very similar in terms of they all have to have HR systems. They all have to have cell systems, right? I mean, you are the expert at that. They all have to have marketing operations, quality control. There are definitely systems that are very similar, but the content can be different. [3:02]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, and like how do you create the content then? When you engage a client, for instance, how do you take them through the process?
Adi Klevit: That’s a great question. So, what we do is the first thing that we do is we need to process map, basically create a map of all the processes that they have. So, we map their processes and then we decide where we’re going to start. Now we always like to start with the area that will give us the biggest return on investment. And that area, return investment, I judge it in terms of, or we qualify it in terms of. Of course, it’s money but it’s also maybe time that you are getting back. Maybe it’s…You know, like you have an employee that is coming on and you don’t have a way to train them. And if you had return on investment, you’ll be able to train them faster. And then they are not, they’re going to be able to stay longer. So, employee retention, it can be return on investment in terms of risk mitigation, whatever it is. Right. So, we decide where we’re going to start. And then what we do, we schedule a weekly meeting where we are going through the processes that we mapped and we extract information from each and every client, sorry, from each and every department or basically the processes that we want to document. We extract the information and then we write it. And then we provide it to the subject matter experts so they can review it, they can see, they can give us their opinion and anything that needs to be edited and then we repeat it until we have all the processes documented. Now we also help with process improvement and then we basically help the company to make sure that the processes are followed by all. [5:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, how do you do that? How do you know it’s going to be consistently done?
Adi Klevit: Right, so we guide the company through it, right? So, the first thing that we do is we make sure that they have the mindset that processes and procedures are going to be used throughout the company. That’s number one. Number two is we have to make sure that the procedures, processes that were documented are accessible and are written in such a format that everybody can follow them. So that’s very important because if they are stored somewhere that nobody knows where, it’s very hard to follow them and it’s very hard to get them implemented. Then we have a rollout process. It’s actually a five -step rollout process, very specific, that intends to train everybody on those procedures and also make sure that there is buying, and every person really understands the importance of having those processes documented. The next step after that is we make sure those processes are actually being utilized and used in day -to -day management. And then we also ensure that those.
Nancy Calabrese: And how do you have to ensure that heavy? Sorry about that.
Adi Klevit: Good question but let me just say that like in terms of what we also do, we ensure that there is regular reviews of those processes and that regular review is either driven by time. So, every so often, like every six months, every year, every quarter, those processes are being reviewed or it’s driven by event if there are any changes, and those processes need to be changed. So, to answer your question on how we ensure that there is utilization of those processes. So whenever there are issues that happen in a company, we handle it by, you know, it’s always a people problem, a process problem or both, right? So, we guide the company and the stakeholders or the main stakeholders on how to identify whether it’s a issue, it’s a people problem, a process problem or both, and what steps to take in order to remedy what is happening. That’s one example. [7:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, wow. I guess, you know, what I’m thinking as you’re speaking is what are some of the pain points companies are experiencing that let you know that they need your services?
Adi Klevit: Yeah. So, it’s a very good question. So, let’s say they are expanding. Okay. And they’re hiring people and let’s say, you know, you work with salespeople. So, let’s say it’s a construction company and then now hiring an estimator. Like the owner has been wearing that estimator hat and they go, okay, now I’m going to hire somebody new, but I don’t know what to do with them. I don’t know how to train them. I don’t know how, you know, how we’re going to explain to them everything that they need to be doing. Like, for example, I have a client right now that is hiring a project manager for the first time. He’s been being the project manager, but how do we actually teach the project manager what they need to do? So, we had to document everything and then train the project manager on how to do that work. So that, that is an example. [8:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, wow. How long does it typically take for a company, for the light bulb to go off when you create all of these systems, then it’s running smoothly?
Adi Klevit: I think it’s pretty fast because the more order you put in, the more aha moments they will have in terms of the light bulb. Like, wow, yeah, that works. We need to put more and more order. So I think it can be pretty immediate. [8:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. How did you get involved in this? What piqued your interest in doing this kind of work?
Adi Klevit: When I was deciding on my major in college, I look at different options. And the thing that really interested me when I chose industrial engineering, it was the fact that it was a combination of science, which I was really good at, but also understanding human nature and helping people be more productive, more efficient, and increase basic productivity and efficiency. And that really interested me because I wanted to know how I can help people. I wanted to increase their success, and I wanted to combine also science and do something that has a good methodology to it. [9:47]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. And you say that you can virtually help any kind of business in any industry. Do you do more work in one industry over another?
Adi Klevit: We’re pretty industry agnostic, so we have clients all over. We have clients that are in the trades. We have clients that are in manufacturing, professional services, even retail. So constructions, private practices, so definitely a variety. [10:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. And do you do this nationwide or throughout the world?
Adi Klevit: I do it throughout the world as a matter of fact, I mean, definitely nationwide and also throughout the world. We have clients in the UK, clients in Australia. [10:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, far reach, that is you. So, what is your unique idea that is different and sets you apart in your industry?
Adi Klevit: It’s a tough question in terms of, because I don’t know what other people, I mean, I know what I know about my us. And I think what sets us apart is that we have a strong team. And my idea is that, you know, I can’t be a solo practitioner. I have a team, I have a team of writers, I have a team of consultants, I have marketing sales. You know, I feel like I need to walk the walk, you know, not just talk the talk, right? And I managed to scale my company. I managed to increase it. I make it to make it bigger. I, we all that allows us to take more and more clients and we always improve, improve our own processes. We want to deliver a great product for our clients, and we do. So that is pretty unique. [11:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, yeah, I would think so. And is there a story that you think the audience would find interesting?
Adi Klevit: Of course, you know, we have many case studies, like for instance, a client, if you want to look at the actual videos, you can go to our, on my LinkedIn, Adik Levit, if you look me up, there are plenty of testimonial videos in the clients onwards and it’s testimonials from the clients. Yeah, so one of the stories there is of a client that was able to sell his company for two times of what it was worth because he had well -documented processes and procedures. Another story is of a client that was able to reduce the onboarding time of new customer service representatives by 75 % because he had training materials. [12:33]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow.
Adi Klevit: Yeah, I know. There is another one of a client that was able to grow his company and was actually able to take a vacation for, he wasn’t able to take a vacation for so long and he was able to. Even today, I was talking to a client, and he was freaking out because he’s going to be two weeks with no phone in a retreat and no computer and no ability to communicate to his team. And, you know, they have great documented processes. His team. We really train them that it’s followed by all and ask them the questions. Okay. I understand you’re freaking out but tell me one specific thing that will happen that you anticipate that can happen while you’re gone. And he looked and he looked, and he looked, and he goes, nothing. It’s all going to be just fine. Nothing bad will happen. I can just leave. And that was amazing. That was an amazing win because three years ago it would have happened. [13:33]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, it’s funny. I remember the first year I was able to take a vacation. It is freeing, right? You feel like, yes, I finally got there. But for years, you know, many years ago, I never took a vacation and didn’t work. So, I know that feeling. I mean, is there anything in particular you would like me to spotlight?
Adi Klevit: You know, I think it’s the importance of actually having well -documented processes and procedures that are followed by all. I think that is extremely important. It’s something that people should definitely look at and that doing it, having somebody do it for you is definitely going to make a huge difference. Because as one of my clients just said, and again, you can also watch her video on words. She said if she was actually trying to do it herself, she would still be on procedure number four. And, you know, and I hear it over and over again is so in terms of expediting things, in terms of increasing the organization, definitely recommend that you document your processes and procedures. And if you need help, contact us. [14:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Wow, yeah, you know, it’s always a good idea to engage with an expert in whatever you need to have done. I’m a big believer in outsourcing, as you know. So, what’s a fun fact about you that the audience should know?
Adi Klevit: You know, I am, I love the outdoors. I live in the Pacific Northwest, love the outdoors. I think it’s, it’s so important to balance, you know, activity, being active and going out and have your space, have your time. And I just love doing that. And I get my brightest and best ideas when I’m actually on a hike, when I’m outside. So, I love that. [15:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Do you bring a recorder with you, so you record it when it comes to you?
Adi Klevit: You know, it’s actually a great idea, I should. Well, I have my phone, so yes, but I think it’s a different thing. Yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: You know, it’s so funny, you know, now I’m hating myself because I used to have a recorder next to my, on my nightstand. If I couldn’t sleep and I thought of something, I would like talk to it. And it always at least reminded me of the idea because then I go to sleep and forget it. So now we have fun.
Adi Klevit: You know, that’s a great, yeah, I heard it from different people, and I think it’s definitely a great, great idea.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah. So, tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Adi Klevit: that processes and procedures are not a boring activity, that it actually can be pretty exciting. [16:43]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. How so?
Adi Klevit: Because it gives you freedom, you know? That’s another truism, it does give you freedom. And people think that sometimes it’s restrictive, especially people that are creative, they might think that having processes and procedures is a restrictive activity. But the truth is, it’s not. Because if you don’t have your processes and procedures well documented, that’s restrictive because then you have to reinvent the wheel every single time. [17:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, true. What about our personal lives? Do you recommend having that for our personal lives?
Adi Klevit: I’m a firm believer in it. What about you? What do you think?
Nancy Calabrese: Well, you know, I think we’re all creatures of habit and I think it’s more in my head than documented.
Adi Klevit: Yeah, I mean, that’s why I tell people it’s like you, yeah, it is in your head, but you do it. Like I tell people, you know, you all have a process. You know, when you wake up in the morning and you make tea or drink water or make coffee, you know, there are not a lot of people that will vary it every single day. They probably have their process, right? I mean, when you go grocery shopping, you have your process. You know, even if you go online, you know, you go, I’ll start with this and this and that, or even the processes go to you. You know, shopping cart online. I mean, we select everything that you want and then add additional things, whatever it is. It’s a process. Now, you know, you must have, I mean, like everything in life, you shouldn’t do anything to excess. Right. I mean, you know, I’m not talking here about being like obsessive with order. And if something, see, that’s the thing. If something, let’s say it goes wrong, then, then you just freak out and you can move on. No, you must flow with it. Okay. So, you have a process of doing so. Let’s say you have a process of making coffee, but your coffee machine is broken. So don’t freak out about it. Go to your coffee shop down the street and buy coffee and then go fix it or buy a new one. So, it’s that adaptability that you have to have, but it doesn’t mean the processes are bad, right? I mean, for me, I know that I say, I want time to do the things that I like, right? I want time to read books. I want time to volunteer in the community. I want time to go outdoors but I want also time to complete all my tasks. And what I find is that I can cut down time by having processes. [19:07]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow, I totally agree with you. You know, we’re up in time and let me ask you one final question. What is one takeaway you’d like to leave the audience with?
Adi Klevit: that don’t be afraid from starting process documentation. Just start doing it. Don’t make it complex. Don’t make it like something that you have to wait one day. You will get to it just right now. Sit down in front of your computer. Find something that you are going, okay, I want to now document my sales process and write a few steps on how you sell. That is your sales process and call Nancy, of course, so she can help you with the sales process. But you know, you can definitely.
Nancy Calabrese: And if I can’t answer that, I’m going to refer you to Adi.
Adi Klevit: That’s right. So, we’re all going to collaborate here, but it’s true. You know, just start, do something, you know, don’t go into this analysis paralysis thing because it just doesn’t work. [20:07]
Nancy Calabrese: I agree. Listen, folks, listen to this lady. So, for any of you out there that are frustrated because you don’t know how to train or as Adi mentioned, you know, you have a new employee, you’re switching roles and you don’t have a system in place, really take advantage of Adi’s expertise. She’ll get your business straight. And if you have any issues on a personal level, she can help you with that. So, Adi, thanks so much for spending time with us today. In the future, perhaps you can come back, and we can expand on this. And for everyone out there, make it an awesome systems day. And by the way, a sales day too. We’ll see you next time. [20:58]
by Nancy Calabrese | Aug 27, 2024 | Podcast
About Roger Martin: Roger Martin is a Co-Founder and Managing Member of the industry-leading health and wellness franchises, RockBox Fitness and beem Light Sauna. Prior to RockBox Fitness and beem Light Sauna, operated as the Chief Operating Officer of a solid oral dosage pharmaceutical development and manufacturing organization. Previously served as President of a large topical semi-solid and liquid CDMO, as a National Sales Director and Sr. Vice President leading sales and marketing teams of up to 500 sales representatives in the specialty and big pharma market. Extensive expertise in pharmaceutical sales management, leadership, sales force deployment, business development, strategic selling, contract negotiation, business-to-business service contracting, licensing, and pharmaceutical and contracted service marketing. Knowledge of myriad dosage forms and therapeutic classes, as well as regulatory environments and payer systems. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Roger.
In this episode, Nancy and Roger discuss the following:
- The definition of high-impact communication
- The difference between persuasion, influence, and manipulation in sales
- The importance of storytelling in sales, positioning the customer as the hero
- The value of continual learning and personal investment versus traditional financial investments
- Keypoints from Roger’s book, An Insider’s Guide to Business
Key Takeaways:
- The best way for a salesperson to make an impact in their industry, in the world, and on others is to start with genuinely understanding what their prospect needs.
- Buying behavior is this: you’re telling a story, and the customer is the hero.
- People will buy from people they like, but more people will buy from people whom they trust to solve their issue.
“High-impact communication, by my definition, is when two individuals have a complete, thorough, and empathetic understanding of each other’s wants and needs. And what do I mean by that? Whether it’s a personal relationship, a family relationship, a business relationship, or even a vendor-customer relationship, it’s about both sides understanding what each other needs to thrive in that relationship. Too often, especially in today’s digital world, communication becomes overly transactional. I love how you started by saying that every business and everything else starts with a human interaction.” – ROGER
“I appreciate the question because it will allow me to delineate the difference between persuasion, influence, and manipulation. And they are too often conflated. The consumer conflates them; even salespeople conflate the two when really persuasion and influence are about empathetically trying to understand what your pain point, your issue, your area of opportunity is—something that, you know, you’re at point A and you’re trying to get to point C, let’s say. And then I help through persuasion, and I’m going to persuade you to understand that this problem needs to be acted upon. If you think about it for a long time, if you just keep wondering about it, if you stress about it, you’re not going to solve your issue. So I’m going to persuade you that you need to take action. And I’m going to do that through very ethical means and just skillful means, but to help build that bridge—just think of, you know, in your mind, literally building a bridge over a small river from A to C, and my product or solution and support and services will help get you from A to C. Now, manipulation is, “Hey, I want to get you to C because I make a big commission off of it, but you really don’t need C, and your A is just fine for you, or another vendor would get you to C a lot easier and cheaper than me. But I’m going to use, you know, tricks and slick lines and all that, you know, to get you there.” […] People will always exchange money for a solution to a problem that is causing them pain or a solution to a problem that will help them grow to be even more successful. And too many times—and you know this—too many times a salesperson will boast about their company, they’ll boast about their track record, about their service record, about their customer satisfaction record. You know what? Those are great. The customer couldn’t care less. The customer wants to know, “Can you solve my problem?” You know, “Can you solve my problem?” – ROGER
“I would challenge them to continue learning, listen to Nancy’s podcast, you know, buy those $997 courses from genuine, great people that you can trust and who will deliver value. Go to that weekend seminar, invest the two grand to do that because you should be investing in yourself as much as you’re investing in your business and investing in the stock market. I mean, the stock market is going to make 8 to 10% over the long run. You put that same two grand into yourself, you can quintuple that money in a year. You know, to me, it’s a no-brainer about continual learning.” – ROGER
Connect with Roger Martin:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Roger Martin, who has built a 30 year sales, marketing and C level leadership career. He is the co -founder and CEO of two national franchise brands, Rockbox Fitness and Beam Light Sauna, as well as various other businesses. Roger has led teams as large as 500 people and knows the importance of clear, high impact communication. And throughout his career, he’s extensively studied human behavior, persuasion and influence and train thousands to communicate more effectively and inspirationally. Finally, he is the host of the Thrive More podcast and recently launched his book, An Insider’s Guide to Business, Secrets from an Entrepreneur’s Playbook. Boy, you’re a busy guy, Roger. Welcome to the show.
Roger Martin: Thank you. Yeah. I’m, after that I’m exhausted. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for having me. [1:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, what a promo. Yeah, I’m so excited to have you. So why don’t we start with this? What is high impact communication?
Roger Martin: Yeah. High impact communication. My definition is going to be when two individuals have a complete, thorough and empathetic understanding of each other’s wants and needs. And what do I mean by that? Whether you’re in a relationship, if it’s a personal relationship, a family relationship, a business relationship, which could even mean a vendor customer relationship, it’s about both sides understanding what each other needs to thrive in that relationship. And too many times, especially in today’s digital world, it’s so transactional. I love how you started off and said that every, you know, business, everything, everything starts with a human interaction. And I could not agree with you more. And we’re, you know, as much as the world is trying to digitize everything at the end of the day, we’re social creatures and we want to be heard, understood and seen. And, you know, this podcast being about sales and effective sales, the best way. The best way for a salesperson to make an impact in their industry, in the world and on others is to start with genuinely understanding what their prospect needs. Even if that means Nancy, I can’t help you. You know what? I actually don’t have a product or service that fits perfectly with what you’re looking to do. And you know, that that’s taking the high ground and being a very ethical salesperson, but that high impact communication is all about truly understanding the needs and the why, you know, we always talk about the why behind the why, but to me, think of it, think of it like an iceberg. You know, if you, if a lot of times the salesperson will find out what they think is the why, which is what the prospect is volunteered, which is the iceberg above the water. But until we get, you know, this 10 stories deep into the ocean down near the bottom, that’s the real reason they’re, they’re seeking to alleviate their pain points, whatever, you know, or see growth in the business. So I would just say, you know, that mutual understanding. [3:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, see, I also, when you’re describing this, it’s the ability to ask important questions of the prospect or the customer. And I think we earn trust by asking those questions and repeating back what we believe we heard. Now, you’re big into persuasion and influence. So how do you use those two things to drive more sales?
Roger Martin: Yeah. And I, and I appreciate the question because it will allow me to also, for your listeners, really delineate the difference between persuasion, influence and manipulation. And they are too often conflated. the consumer conflates them, even salespeople conflate the two when really persuasion influence is I’m empathetically trying to understand what your pain point, your issue, your area of opportunity is something that, you know, you’re at point A and you’re trying to get to point C, let’s say. And then I help through persuasion and I’m going to persuade you to understand that this problem needs to be acted upon. If you think about it for a long time, if you just keep wondering about it, if you stress about it, you’re not going to solve your issue. So I’m going to persuade you that you need to take action. And I’m going to do that through very, ethical means and just skillful means, but to help build that bridge, just think of, you know, in your mind, building a literally a bridge. You know, like over a small river from a to C and my product or solution and support and services will help get you from a to C. Now manipulation is, Hey, I want to get you to see, cause I make a big commission off of it, but you really don’t need C and your A’s just fine for you or another vendor would get you to see a lot easier and cheaper than me. But I’m going to use, you know, tricks and slick lines and all that, you know, to, to get you there. That’s manipulation and too often a salesperson is thinking about, my God, how do I close? How do I get them down this path? If they would slow down and listen, as you said, ask important questions, meaningful questions, and then ask, well, what did you mean by that? Tell me more about, I need to understand like what, so what happens if you don’t eliminate 15 % from your budget this year on manufacturing costs? I’m just making this up, you know, whatever, but If what is the impact? What is the impact to your career? What is the impact to your department? How about your company? What does that mean for job? Like getting much, much deeper there so that you can understand so that you can persuade and then influence somebody and influence is a positive term. So you, you use that to, you know, how do you drive sales? It goes back to you solve somebody’s problem. People will always exchange money for a solution to a problem that is causing them pain or solution to a problem that will help them grow to be even more successful. And too many times, and you know this too many times a salesperson will boast about their company. They’ll boast about their track record, about their service record, about their customer satisfaction record. You know what? Those are great. The customer couldn’t care less. The customer wants, can you solve my problem? You know, can you solve my problem? [7:00]
Nancy Calabrese: That’s right. Right.
Roger Martin: And so, persuasion and influence, and I’ve just, I’ve studied this extensively and buying behavior is it’s you’re telling a story, and the customer is the hero. You are simply the guide to get that customer down the path and safely over that bridge at a fair cost that allows you to make a fair profit as you should. It allows them to achieve their goal, but it is truly storytelling using them as the hero. And too many times, you know, I And I learned in the, you know, back in the nineties, you know, feature advantage benefit and, and, you know, that’s the cost. The consumer is so much more educated now, like the, the internet has democratized information. And so, the, the old way of selling may still work at times, but it’s not going to be nearly as effective. And it’s, you’re not going to be able to help as many people using those old tactics of, you know, feature advantage benefit and my company and our reputation. That’s you’re very limited that way. [8:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Do you think that there are still a lot of old school salespeople out there?
Roger Martin: I think there are some still very successful salespeople, men and women who sell on relationship, and you know, they believe that people will buy from people they like. And I can’t disagree with that statement, but I would challenge the statement that yes, people will buy from people they like, but more people will buy from people whom they trust to solve their issue. And you know, you, you want to be liked by your customers. Everybody wants to be liked. But I would rather be trusted and be the person that they lean into. Whether we have, you know, whether we both enjoy baseball or, or, or cooking or whatever, you know, you always try to find these commonalities. And I get that. And there’s a lot of, there is neuroscience behind talking about nostalgic events that tie you together and, and take that person back to a happier place in life. And like, you know, I’ve studied NLP and there’s definitely, there’s definitely science and it works, but Boy, it’s a lot of work too. When you can just focus on the customer and then try to, instead of trying to stay five steps ahead of the customer, just stay right with them and understand them so that you can move them to a better place. Yeah. [9:17]
Nancy Calabrese: So, I’m just curious, you’ve got great business building experience, and you helped grow two national franchises. How has your background in building businesses helped you do that?
Roger Martin: Yep. So, Nancy, the, the real abridged version of this is I spent 25 years in corporate America. I’m very grateful for the time I spent in the pharmaceutical industry, which is where I spent all 25 years. I worked for fortune 50 companies down to, you know, I worked for private equity. Then I worked for like a family office that owned a company and you know, corporate America gets a bad rap and they should in a lot of ways, but in the same token, I was very fortunate that they invested a lot in me in my, in my, you know, leadership and, and, and mentoring skills and, again, finance and operations, all those skills that you need to run a business. I was able to learn that on someone else’s dime, but also give them, you know, a 10 X return on their investment in me. And so I’ve made a lot of people, a lot of money because they’ve invested in me. But in 2016, end of 16, I just had this epiphanal moment, you know, the whole story behind it, but it’s an epiphanal moment where I said to myself, I’m not happy doing this anymore. I was a chief operating officer at that time. And, you know, I’d started in the business as a sales rep and I just, I wasn’t enjoying what I was doing anymore. And it didn’t matter how much money I made. It didn’t matter the title. It just, it wasn’t, it wasn’t scratching the itch. And then, so in two, that early 2017, I, I transitioned out. I had a succession plan and all that made sure I finished impeccably to your listeners, always finished impeccably, whether it a job with a customer relationship, always finished impeccably. But, you know, I worked to do that. And then I, I left a multi multi six figure job and stock options and healthcare and all that stuff on a Friday and woke up on a Monday morning for the first time in my life, unemployed, you know, no salary, no health insurance, all that. And yes, it was scary as could be. It was scary as hell but on, on Tuesday, you know, and I had a plan. I was, it was to start this company called rock box fitness, which is a group fitness concept boxing, kickboxing and functional strength training. Nobody gets punched in the face. It’s, it’s, it’s bags and it’s all, all for a fitness set to music and color changing lighting. It feels almost like you’re in a nightclub or rock concert. And, you know, we, I wanted to grow this as a national franchise with a business partner I had recently met. And I, I honestly, it, it wasn’t, I wouldn’t say it was incredibly challenging to transfer my skills that I had learned building divisions building sales teams, building marketing groups, building, you know, manufacturing companies, because that all directly applied into my entrepreneurial journey. What I wasn’t ready for was the nothing ever goes the way you expect it. And it’s your checkbook. It’s your checking account that is coming out of right when, you know, when you work for big companies, something goes wrong. You’re like, okay, we screwed up. We need to fix this. Let’s, but you still get paid when you’re an entrepreneur, something goes sideways you don’t get, you don’t make any money. So, that, that will mature somebody at a, at a, at an exponential rate. And, you know, I, so I had to of course go through all of that learning and entrepreneur does, and I still do, seven, eight years into this, but I’m fortunate that I was able to learn a lot of those skills and I, and then I continued my learning. So if there’s any, you know, any, any message I can give to your listeners, Nancy, it’s, you know, when you’re done with school and I have my, I went back and got my MBA when I was, 30. That’s great. But my learning has, has really ramped up almost like a hockey stick when it comes to not just on the job, you know, learning as an entrepreneur, but listening to podcasts like yours, reading every book I can, you know, I read 60, 70 books a year and that’s not, that’s not a sound bite for you. I literally read 60 to 70 books a year. I just devour them because I, and I’ll go back and read some of them twice. So some of those 60, 70s, me going back to read a book that I read like three years ago, but want to revisit it. Cause now I, you know, the, the, the teacher appears when the student is ready. Right. And so, some of these books hit me a different way three years later after I’ve read them. And I still go back probably every four years and read how to win friends and influence people because it’s, you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s timeless. And, and, and so, you know, to your listeners, I would, I would challenge that it challenged them to continue learning, listen to Nancy’s podcast, you know, buy those 997 courses from, you know, genuine great people that, that, you know, that you can trust and will deliver value go to that weekend seminar, invest the two grand to do that because you should be investing in yourself as much as you’re investing in your business and investing in the stock market. I mean, stock market, you’re going to make eight to 10 % over the long run. You put that same two grand into yourself. You can quintuple that money in a year. You know, it’s it to me, it’s a no brainer about continual learning and, and Invest in the somebody, it’s not my line, but I love this, you know, invest, invest in the S and me 500, not the S and P 500. [14:27]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. I love it. You know, and I’m a big believer in investing in yourself. Keep yourself in the mix of ongoing training, learn new techniques, be around new people. I mean, I would be bored if I didn’t approach life that way myself. Okay, so let’s talk about your book, An Insider’s Guide to Business, Secrets from an Entrepreneur’s Playbook. What’s it about and what motivated you to write it?
Roger Martin: Thank you for the question. And I just want to start off with saying that all proceeds from this book from the first day it was published until, you know, it ever goes out of print are going 100 % of it. I don’t make a red sun off this book. They’re all being donated to charity called To Write Love on Her Arms, which is a charity that helps support people with mental health struggles, including suicide prevention. Rockbox Fitness is it’s our national charity partner and we really believe that. You know, strong body is wonderful, but you need a strong body and a strong mind. And in today’s world, you know, a lot of people are struggling with their mental health. So it’s, you know, available on Amazon, Kindle or the paperback. And again, whomever buys it, just know they’re supporting a charity and it goes a long way. So this book I wrote because again, I’ve read some, I’ve read, we’ve all read good to great, you know, we’ve all read some of these, you know, CEO excellence and execution and these, you know, these, these standard books. And I’ve read every Jack Welsh book. But what didn’t seem to be on the market was a book from somebody that was running a small to midsize business, you know, from, from 10 to $50 million and has scaled the business and has done it several times. you know, I could certainly buy books and I have, and I love them reading these founders books of, you know, Hey, I started this company and built it to, you know, a billion dollars. Well, that’s great, but most of us are not going to get there, you know, and I, I hope I do, but I don’t know if, you know, I haven’t. And so I can’t write that book who I can write a book for are the people that were me seven or eight years ago and were, you know, in a job that wasn’t fulfilling and now they’re ready to go out on their own or they have a company, but they’re stuck. You know, they’ve got it to a certain level of revenue and they can’t get it above that. And that’s what this book is for. It’s, it’s, it’s written, in, you know, this modular format and very simple. I, I wrote the book pretty quickly, but then I took four months of doing edits and literally did seven full cover to cover edits, meaning I had, I had four or five different people that were helping me. And it’s a real book by the way, no AI, no ghostwriter. This is me pecking out 46 ,000 words on my, on my laptop. But, but I definitely wanted to simplify this down to, you know, could, could a kid in high school read this book and know how to build a business. And then could a 45 or 50 year old executive read this book? and get just as much out of it and know how to start scale staff and build their business. And, and I believe I’ve gotten there because I’ve made it, I, you know, instead of long flowery, you know, flowery language and long, you know, compound sentences, I tried to make it just really straightforward, you know, 10, 12 page chapters that you could really digest and go back and use as a reference. But in addition, I included story format. So I, you know, I don’t just say, Hey, you should do this because I say you should do this because let me tell you about a story. I didn’t do it that way and got my nose punched in, you know, by business and you know, and, or let me tell you a story how, you know, something was wrong and here’s what I did to correct it. And here’s what I’ve learned from experts that have already been there and done that. And so there’s always usually a good story to start the chapter or to finish the chapter that makes it concrete and more of a fun read. You know, if something’s dry and boring, even, you know, I don’t enjoy it. So I wanted to write it in a way that was compelling and people enjoyed what they were reading, but also could glean a lot of information from. [18:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, people love stories. They just do, you know, and I think even in sales, third party stories really get the attention of your prospects. So it sounds like a great book. And, you know, we’re wrapping up a little bit, but I just want to talk about your Thrive More podcast. What kind of topics do you discuss?
Roger Martin: Yeah. So we focus on like yours is, is, is focused on selling. And I love that. I can talk about that all day. I’ve really, opened my podcast up to business health and wealth. And so we’ll have discussions around persuasion influence, but a lot of times around business building business, I’ll have a lot of people that have built a business. but I’ve also had, you know, I’ve had like Chris Voss, who’s a, a master FBI negotiator. And we talked about persuasion influence, which is really selling. I’ve had a hypnotist that’s, that has a show on the sunset on the, on the Las Vegas strip. but, but that was really around mental health because he, he, he had some real struggles with that and he talks very openly about it and great episode for the listeners to hear. So it’s business health and wealth. I’ll have a nutritionist on one day and the next day I’ll have somebody talking about how to, you know, leverage your financing. so I want to be able to help people where they, Want to have help and they may go through the list of topics, you know, i’ve got i don’t know 70 80 shows now They may you know see hey that one really doesn’t apply to me, but this one does and i want you know, we’ll listen to that so It’s a show. I love to do again It’s i do it because I love it just like you I love having these conversations and if I can give back to somebody that is again Five ten fifteen twenty years behind where i’m at just in this journey of life as we call it you know, that’s hopefully that’s that’s my my gift back. [20:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. I think that’s great. So how can my people find you?
Roger Martin: Yeah, thank you. So, a couple ways. One, they can follow me on socials on any of the socials, LinkedIn, Instagram and YouTube at Real Roger Martin. That’s just real and R O G E R Martin. so, at real Roger Martin, or they can go to thrive more brands .com. So, rock box fitness, beam light sauna, which is another brand we have, they’re under really this, this platform that we call thrive more brands. And if they go to thrive more brands .com, you know, they’ll, if they, you know, there’s no obligation where they can learn about franchising. They can learn about, if they have a business, they’re thinking about franchising. They can learn more there. the book link is on there. I think the podcast link is on there. Sometimes I do speak like this past week, and I was doing a speaking event. they can, you know, see where I’m going to be there. So, thrive more brands .com or just follow me at real Roger Martin. [21:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Wonderful. Listen, folks, he’s the go -to guy and I’m gonna grab myself a copy of your book. I think, especially since you said you made it very simple and easy to read and not too flowery. That’s right up my alley. Yeah, yeah. So, thanks so much for being on the show. People go and get his book, reach out to Roger and until we see you again.
Roger Martin: Wonderful. There you go. Give me the facts, yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Make it an awesome sales day. And you know what, as Roger said, invest in yourself. So we’ll talk to you sooner than you think. Have a good one. [21:59]
by Nancy Calabrese | Aug 16, 2024 | Podcast
About Jake Stahl: Jake Stahl is a Fractional Chief Learning Officer who mixes innovation and mind science to redefine training and skill-building. The Chief Learning Officer (CLO) is the linchpin for organizational learning and development initiatives. Collaborating closely with key executives such as the Chief Revenue Officer, Chief Operating Officer, and Chief Marketing Officer, the CLO crafts and executes comprehensive training programs. With over 10,000 professionals trained in six countries, he has created more than 100 proprietary courses, facilitated thousands of workshops, and navigated the complexities of leadership development. His approach transcends traditional training, integrating value-based selling with the latest psychological techniques and neurolinguistic programming to offer personalized, high-impact solutions like his Adaptive Conversational Blueprint. Throughout his extensive career, he has doubled and tripled sales, sculpted award-winning sales representatives, and ignited leadership potential across ten distinct industries. His seven patents in the field force technology arena, the prestigious International Gold Award for Instructional Design, and invitations to speak nationally and globally on training and development highlight his dedication to excellence. With him, one isn’t just investing in a program; they’re embracing a custom-made experience that caters to specific needs, fueling growth and reimagining success. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Jake.
In this episode, Nancy and Jake discuss the following:
- How does a fractional Chief Learning Officer differ from other traditional roles in sales
- Difference between adaptive conversational blueprint and standard sales scripts
- Jake’s 2-10 rule
- How neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) can be used to adapt to a customer’s communication style quickly
- The power of establishing trust and matching a prospect’s communication style
- Not selling is the best way to sell
Key Takeaways:
- I teach representatives how to adapt to that quickly in a conversation so they don’t need a sales script.
- If I could eliminate any phrase from the English language, it would probably be, “Hi, how are you?”
- Two five-year-olds are the best conversationalists on the planet.
- Remember, everybody wants to be heard.
“I’ve been doing this for 30 years across six countries. I’ve trained over 10,000 people. And to me, the baseline of a good conversation will be trust. I think our flaw is that we don’t take time to build that trust in the beginning by listening, understanding the situation a person is in, and then being able to adapt our conversation accordingly. These factors are things like emotional intelligence and the company’s perception of your company, and you are taking a lot into play. But conditioning and perception, to me, are huge. If we can understand the other person’s position when it comes to conditioning and perception, and we can build trust, the sale typically follows.” – JAKE
“Yeah, when most people have a conversation or start with somebody for the first time, they’re anxious to tell them about themselves because that’s always our favorite topic, right? We talk about ourselves. So, when you get into that conversation, my theory—and it’s really shown itself to be true over the past 30 years—is that the more time I can give you at the beginning of a conversation to talk about you, the more receptive you’re going to be to me. And the more I check in with you during a conversation, the more receptive you’ll be to me. So, I established something called the 2-10 rule, which says every two minutes, check in with the person you’re talking to in some way, shape, or form. Make a statement, ask a question. So, every two minutes, you do this. And I have some of my clients set a stopwatch because this is really tough for some people to get a hold of. At the end of 10 minutes, regroup. So, Nancy, I’ve been talking for the past 10 minutes. I’ve really been let loose. Do you have any questions about what we’ve talked about so far? Is there anything you don’t understand? So, every 10 minutes, you do that. And when you do that, it takes care of one basic thing: the Q&A people typically have at the end. This whole premise, Nancy, is based on the fact that for every 10 minutes you talk, you generate two minutes’ worth of questions in the other person’s head. So, the 2-10 rule flips it on its head and says every two minutes check-in, every 10 minutes summarize and ask for questions, and your call and your trust level will go through the roof.” – JAKE
“How it works is by being interested versus interesting. So, when I get on the phone with a potential client, let me give you a great example. When I reach out on LinkedIn and try to connect, my first four connections with that person have nothing to do with me. So, I’ll reach out the first time and say, ‘Hey, I see you’re another fractional executive. Just curious if you’d want to connect and catch up.’ Then they write back, and I write—no matter their response—I write back and say, ‘So, what’s your ideal customer profile? Who are you looking for in the way of a customer?’ And then the third reach-out is, ‘So, what verticals are you in? What’s the place that you live in the most?’ And a miracle happens, Nancy. By the end of that third conversation, 80% of the time, somebody either says to me, ‘Can I get on a call with you?’ or, ‘I’ve been talking all about myself. Tell me what you do.’ Either way, Nancy, I’m a winner. And I hadn’t even talked about what I did yet.” – JAKE
Connect with Jake Stahl:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Jake Stahl, CEO and founder of Jake Stahl Consulting, which transforms sales teams’ performance with tailored solutions rooted in psychology, potentially doubling or tripling sales without needing extensive resume vetting or paying for recruiters. Jake is a pioneer in conversational dynamics and is a highly regarded fractional chief learning officer. He’s revolutionizing sales through his adaptive conversational blueprint turning sales professionals into relational architects capable of forging profound connections with prospects. Integral to his approach is the 210 rule, which challenges traditional perspectives on conversation and emphasizes the importance of rhythm and cadence. Welcome to the show, Jake. This is gonna be fun.
Jake Stahl: Thank you, Nancy. I’m thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me. [1:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, this is long overdue. And I guess my first question is, what is a fractional chief learning officer?
Jake Stahl: Yeah, great question. It’s kind of a unicorn in the fractional world, Nancy. What I do is I go in, and I act as the chief learning officer or head of training and development for a company. So, I can do anything from creating a sales department to creating onboarding programs for salespeople coming on, all the way to coursework design, curriculum mapping. Anything a training and development department can do is what I do for a company. I just do it fractionally. [2:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. And when you say fractionally, you do it for multiple companies.
Jake Stahl: Yeah, so the fractional movement is something I guess you would say started about a year and a half ago. It’s when you go into a company, you take a position where you have just about a C -suite level or director or VP level, and you go in and you work with multiple companies. So you give them a fraction of your time per month. Usually you give companies 32, 40 hours a month, and you can do in that time what they often have their full -time people doing. [2:47]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. And then how does your title differ from a chief revenue officer or VP of sales?
Jake Stahl: That’s a great question. I get asked this a lot. The chief revenue officer, VP of sales, they are typically determining the process. So how many calls should I make a week? How many calls should I make a month? What’s the demographic we’re supposed to call? What does my call cadence look like? So, they set all the standards, and they set all the budgets and all the goals. And what winds up happening is I kind of take it from there. So, they control everything up to the point where the representative enters the company and picks up the phone. And then I kind of take it from that point on. So, I work hand in hand with the chief revenue or chief sales officer at every company I do fractional work for. [3:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. I mean, do they consult with you to make sure that the goals are achievable?
Jake Stahl: Yeah, yeah, they do. And a lot of times we will find that it’s not always achievable what they’re looking for, at least not right away. And what we do a lot is we look at new hires coming on board, and we talk about how quickly we expect them to get up to speed. So, we do a lot of work together towards the end goal of increasing revenue. [4:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Got it. So, what exactly is an adaptive conversational blueprint and how is it different from other conversational formats?
Jake Stahl: So, a lot of times you’ll get a company that will hire a training company from outside. It could be Sandler, it could be value -based selling, and they’re all excellent companies and excellent methodologies. And depending on the industry you’re in, they could be exactly what your company needs. However, my approach takes away sales scripts. It takes away pre -thought out openings and closing and objections. My adaptive conversational blueprint is based in neuro -linguistic programming. So, it adapts quickly and easily to what the customer is saying. And the responses are based on our basic psychological makeup. Underneath, we’re all kind of built the same way in our brain, the way we react to things. So, what I teach representatives is how to adapt to that quickly in a conversational, so they don’t need a sales script. So, they don’t need to memorize certain things in order to make the customer happy. They’re having a legitimate, authentic conversation that leads to a sale. [5:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, but doesn’t it always start with a script? You know, I’m going to have to politely disagree with you. I mean, I believe in scripts, but you want to own it, right? It becomes internalized. Do you use that approach in training your people?
Jake Stahl: Well, first of all, thank you for disagreeing. I appreciate that. I love a hearty conversation. I think that scripts are good in the beginning while somebody gets their land legs. But if you have somebody who has this constant canned approach treating every person on the other end of the phone like they’re exactly the same, they listen the same, they process the same, they make decisions the same, we’re heading down a dangerous road. And this is where sales become a numbers game. So, a salesperson will say, well, I close one out of every 50 people. Well, that’s because the script you’re using applies to probably one out of every 50 people. [6:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Well, not so much the script, but the communication style. Wouldn’t you agree that, I don’t know if you’ve studied DISC, but there are four different communication styles. And I think as a salesperson, we need to adapt the way we speak to their style in the DISC profile. What do you think?
Jake Stahl: I don’t disagree. I think profiles like disc and a neogram and all of those things definitely have their place. But there’s a section Nancy that I would consider more reptilian. It’s kind of our base makeup that is appealed to by neuro -linguistic programming and it gets even simpler. We process through modalities. And I think that disk and anagram are phenomenal if you’re researching somebody and you have the time to do that before you call them, or you have a way to determine that. But neuro -linguistic programming allows you to adapt to that and figure it out within a minute of speaking to somebody and then adapt to that conversation quickly. So it’s almost like the step before disk is what I teach. [7:34]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, okay, so let’s talk about NLP or neuro -linguistic programming. Tell the audience what that is and how do you use it pre -disc?
Jake Stahl: Yeah, it’s a foundation. It’s a foundational study that’s been around for a long time. And it’s based on the fact that we all process in one of five different ways in in our five different senses. But we primarily process in one of three ways visual, auditory or kinesthetic. And we not only speak that way, but we make decisions based on that. And if everybody looks at the decisions they make, typically the good decisions involve all of the primary modalities and we make a bad decision or a tough decision, sometimes some of those modalities are missing. So, it says that if we can appeal to all of someone’s modalities but deal with their primary ones when we’re communicating with them, we can help them come to a decision that’s beneficial for them, because they’re using all of their senses to make the decision. And then it goes deeper than that. It talks about how are you conditioned? What is the perception that person has of you? And then it goes deeper into how is this framed. Does this person have it framed in their head as a necessary call? Like is it something they need to buy or something they may not need to buy? And how associated are they with this? So, it digs deep into the decision -making process, it doesn’t just rely on how they process information. [9:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. And you say you can do this in a minute.
Jake Stahl: Yeah. I teach a course on how to establish trust in less than five minutes and how to establish someone’s modality in less than a minute. Yep. [9:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So what are the secrets to having a better conversation that converts to a sale?
Jake Stahl: Well, this is all a personal belief, of course. I’ve been doing this for 30 years across six countries. I’ve trained over 10 ,000 people. And the thing to me that’s the baseline of a good conversation is going to be trust. And I think the flaw we kind of have is that we don’t take time to build that trust in the beginning by listening, understanding the situation a person’s in, and then being able to adapt our conversation accordingly. So, this factors things in like emotional intelligence. It factors in what that company’s perception of your company, and you are, it takes a lot into play, but conditioning and perception to me are huge. And if we can understand the other person’s position when it comes to conditioning and perception, and we can build trust, the sale just typically follows. [10:34]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Well, my experience is a way to build trust is to match their communication style and make it all about them. What are your thoughts on that?
Jake Stahl: Nancy, you’re dead on. So if you can match their communication style and match it all about them, that goes to understanding their modality and being able to match it, understanding their physical appearance and being able to match their body position, as well as going a little bit deeper, Nancy, being able to match their cadence, being able to match their speed and being able to chunk information in ways that they’ll understand it the most. So, you’re dead on with what you’re saying. [11:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, you know, and I understand that you value cadence over content in a conversation. Can you go into that a little more?
Jake Stahl: Yeah, when most people have a conversation or start with somebody the first time, they’re anxious to tell them about themselves because that’s always our favorite topic right we talk about ourselves. So, when you get into that conversation. My theory, and it’s really showed itself to be true over the past 30 years is that the more time I can give you in the beginning of a conversation to talk about you, the more receptive you’re gonna be to me. And the more I check in with you during a conversation, the more receptive you’re gonna be to me. So, I established something called the 2-10 rule, which basically says every two minutes, check in with the person that you’re talking to in some way, shape or form. Make a statement, ask a question. So, every two minutes you do this. And I have some of my clients set a stopwatch because this is really tough for some people to get a hold of. At the end of 10 minutes, regroup. So Nancy, I’ve been talking for the past 10 minutes. I’ve really been let loose. Do you have any questions on what we’ve talked about so far? Is there anything you don’t understand? So, every 10 minutes you do that. And when you do that, it takes care of one basic thing. And that’s the Q and A people typically have at the end. This whole premise, Nancy is based on the fact that for every 10 minutes you talk, you generate two minutes’ worth of questions in the other person’s head. So, the two 10 rule flips it on its head and says every two minutes check in every 10 minutes, summarize and ask for questions and your call and your trust level will go through the roof. [13:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, what are the questions that you find to be most powerful when you’re qualifying a prospect?
Jake Stahl: I’m gonna be a little controversial here too. And so, I definitely welcome if there’s pushback on this. I’m not as big into questions as I am into statements. And I’ll give you an example. So, if I’m talking with, let’s say I’m selling health benefits. So, I’m talking with a customer on the end of the phone. I know they hate this process because they go through it every year. They have to renew their health benefits. So, I may be talking to them and they’d say, Jake, I hate this process. This sucks, I’m only talking to you because I have to. I may just repeat back to them, it sounds like it’s tough and you’re not really into this call. Yeah, Jake, that’s right. And it’s because of, and then they start to list out reasons. Nancy, I make it a habit then to repeat back at least one or two of the reasons. And I find it’s better than questions. Cause they just keep opening up more and more and verifying what you said. I only start to ask questions when I really need to. [14:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. You know, it’s funny. You said you mentioned Sandler earlier in the conversation. We happen to be Sandler trained and they’re really big on asking questions and asking the right questions. So this is a very interesting point of view. You know, and one of the questions I really wanted to ask you, because I get asked this question all the time. When calling a customer for a cold call, which is what we do for a living here how do you get away from Hi, how are you? Because I think nobody cares.
Jake Stahl: Yeah, and Nancy, I couldn’t agree more. If I could eliminate any phrase from the English language, it would probably be that. Because unless it’s family or somebody we love, we don’t care. I’ll give you a great example. My wife and I were out shopping a couple of weeks ago, and I walked by a gentleman, and our eyes met, and I nodded my head, and I said, hey. And he looked at me and he goes, fine, thanks, how are you? The conversation never took place verbally, but it did in his head. We’re so preconditioned to it. So, Nancy, if that were that condition to it, we’re also conditioned to do other responses after that. So how are you telling me you’re a sales rep. So now I’m going to line up my objections. Price is too high. I don’t need it right now. I got to talk to my boss. So, the idea is get around that condition question. The way I start every conversation is, God, I was really looking forward to this phone call. Thank you for taking the time. Completely throws people out of their conditioning and it opens them up to listen to what my next words are. And if I was a good rep and I did my research on that person, I can then lead in with something valuable. So, with Nancy, you and I, it might be Nancy, I am so glad you took the time for this call. Thank you for taking a few minutes out of your day. I listened to your podcast, and I was just curious, man, how long have you been doing this? Immediately, it’s all about you. Tensions ease, everybody’s happy, you’re now gonna be more receptive, but there’s no hi, how are you involved? [16:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. You know, in order to stand out, you must be different. And that’s a quote from Coco Chanel. And I really believe that. We call it a pattern interrupt. Don’t go into a call sounding like everybody else. You want to sound a little different, which is what you did. That’s really great, Jake. I might steal it from you. Yeah.
Jake Stahl: Feel free. [17:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on?
Jake Stahl: The fact that not selling is the best possible way to sell. I get more pushback on that than I can even shake a stick at and yet I’ve been proving it true for 30 years. [17:40]
Nancy Calabrese: So how does that work?
Jake Stahl: How it works is by being interested versus interesting. So, when I get on the phone with a potential client, well, let me give you a great example. When I do reach outs on LinkedIn, when I’m trying to make a connection, my first four connections with that person have nothing to do with me at all. So, I’ll reach out the first time and I’ll say, hey, I see you’re another fractional executive. Just curious if you’d want to connect and just kind of catch up. Then they write back and I write no matter what their response is, I write back and say, so what’s your ideal customer profile? Who are you looking for in the way of a customer? And then the third reach out is, so what verticals are you in? What’s the place that you live in the most? And a miracle happens, Nancy. By the end of that third conversation, 80% of the time somebody either says to me, can I get on a call with you or, I’ve been talking all about myself. Tell me what you do. Either way, Nancy, I’m a winner. And I hadn’t even talked about what I did yet. [18:50]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Well, I mean, they’re checking you out on LinkedIn, I’m sure, but that’s pretty amazing. 80% of the time.
Jake Stahl: They are, but it doesn’t take me telling them anything. [19:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, pretty darn amazing. So, can anyone learn your methodology?
Jake Stahl: Yeah, it just takes a little bit of patience. And the reason I say that is it’s really a diversion from the way we normally do things. Think back to watching two five -year -olds. They’re the best conversationalists on the planet. I like trucks. What do you like? That’s my mom. Which one is yours? I like black. Do you like black? You know, it’s a back and forth. It’s a relentless conversation. But somewhere along the line, we kind of lose that and we lose the ability to do it because we think about it too much. So, the way I teach it, my adaptive conversational blueprint, the neuro -linguistic programming, I take people back to the basics again. Just start by listening. And I’m going to give you exercises on how to do that and techniques on how to make it work better. And we build it from there. So, anybody can learn it, but it takes dedication. It takes time and the understanding that it’s a long game. It’s not a short one. [20:10]
Nancy Calabrese: It is a long day because I was going to ask you when does the light bulb go off?
Jake Stahl: I’ve had clients that have picked it up after a month. And then I’ve had some where eight months later, they’re still pushing back on me. And a lot of times it’s, it’s how old you are and how long you’ve been in the industry. So, I enjoy working with people. I just got a new client today and the light bulb went off for him first meeting. And now I have him practicing and getting ready for our next meeting. So, depends on the person largely. [20:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Love it. Love it. You know, I can’t believe Jake, we’re up in time. This is a fascinating conversation. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Jake Stahl: The takeaway, I guess I would say is remember everybody wants to be heard. You look all the way back in our history and cavemen were drawing on walls so they could be heard, and they could remember their adventures and show other people their adventures. That has not gone away. Show somebody else you’re listening, really listen to what they’re saying and sell to their needs. Your selling will take off dramatically. [21:23]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. How can my people find you?
Jake Stahl: You can go to jakesdahlconsulting .com. My last name is S T A H L jakesdahlconsulting .com. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. There’s a couple of hundred Jake stalls on LinkedIn, but I’m the only one identifying as a fractional chief learning officer. [21:44]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. Folks, this is a great guy. I encourage that you reach out to Jake and Jake, thank you so much for spending your time with us today. You’re a fascinating guy and I think we have a lot in common in the way we think about selling and having conversations. So I hope you enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed showcasing you and for everyone out there make it an awesome sales day and really take advantage of Jason. He’s a go -to guy. So, we’ll see you next time. [22:20]
