by Nancy Calabrese | Oct 24, 2023 | Podcast
About Valeria Grunbaum: Valeria helps entrepreneurs excel in sales with a strategy adaptable to every industry. Her program condenses more than 30 years of international sales expertise into a comprehensive training course. From working in multinational corporations and founding her own marketing and sales consulting firm, where she served Fortune 500 companies such as Procter and Gamble, General Motors, Avon, DHL, Nestlé (among many others), to helping many small and medium-sized businesses such as Chambers of Commerce, Franchises, Attorneys, Real Estate professionals, and many more in different industries, diverse markets all over the world, you won’t find more valuable insight to support your sales education journey. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Valeria.
In this episode, Nancy and Valeria discuss the following:
- The belief that no one is born a salesperson, but every business owner should be one.
- How everyone embodies a salesperson in some way.
- Tailoring communication with customers or prospects based on their personality type throughout the sales process.
- Detailed descriptions of various communication styles.
- Unique traits of each DISC personality style.
Key Takeaways:
- The truth is that without sales, there’s no business.
- For those people with a negative emotion towards the word sales, the truth is that sales are nothing more than a communication process.
- We are all different, but we are predictable and different.
- Sales is the heart of the business.
- Make your sales the primary business focus if you want to grow.
“About 28 years ago, I learned to work with DISC, which is a behavioral assessment, where based on your personality style, you have different ways of how you communicate and how you need to receive the communication. And what happened is that I started using DISC within my sales process. I understood very early in my years that I shouldn’t communicate how I want to communicate with people. Instead, I should communicate with people how they need to receive the communication. So, this is the transformation that happened in my business after that. Before I realized I could use this methodology with my sales process, I was closing out of 10 clients or 10 customers; let’s call it customers; I was closing only two clients. But then when I started implementing these techniques, this methodology within my sales process, I was working with 10 clients or customers and closing eight clients.” – VALERIA.
“So, there are four main personality styles; depending on how you behave or think, you will most likely have the four, but you will have one in the driver’s seat. Imagine that you are a car; the car has four seats. So, you have all four, but you have one in the driver’s seat, one on the co-pilot, and then two on the passenger back in the passenger seat. So, based on the one driving the car, you’re going to filter the information that you hear, feel, or see. And then, based on that, is how you will respond or react. So, the driver’s seat is the one that decides how you see the world. ” – VALERIA.
“We have the “D,” the “I,” the “S,” and the “C.” The “D” is that person who is direct, focused on the results that one thinks should be done fast, doesn’t get hooked on the details, and makes things happen. They know that they don’t know how they will make it happen, but they know that they can make it happen, and they do. They are very fast-paced. And then the “I” is people that are focused on people. I mean, the “D” s are focused on the task. The “I’s” are focused on the people. They are great cheerleaders. They are very optimistic. They talk with their arms open. Sometimes, they talk even louder. They want to be noticed. When someone who is a high “I” enters the room, everybody will know that person came. The high “S” are very loyal people; they’re introverted. They are people-oriented but different from the “I” ‘s because the “I” s is more out, and the “S” is more in. What I mean by these is that they love people and want to serve. They want to nurture people. They want to help people. And they are very loyal. They are great employees. 69% of the population are high “S”. The high “C’s” they are detail-oriented. These people want to know the step-by-step; they want to get all the information before they decide, so they take time to make decisions. They are task-oriented like the high “D’s,” but the difference is that the high “D’s” don’t need a step-by-step process; they just make it happen. But “C’s” won’t skip a step, and they need proof before they decide.” – VALERIA.
Connect with Valeria Grunbaum:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Valeria Grunbaum, CEO and lead facilitator at the International Business Academy. She provides corporate training, coaching, and consulting services tailored to her clients’ leadership, communication, and sales needs. Valeria is a 30-year sales marketing and leadership veteran recognized for her exceptional ability to speak with clarity, conviction, and insight on a full spectrum of topics about achieving success in the global marketplace. She’s been an internationally renowned trainer, coach, and public speaker for over 20 years. She’s trained and coached specializing in leadership and international sales and marketing strategies to more than 4,000 professionals from more than 40 nationalities. Welcome to the show, Valeria. Let’s get started.
Valeria Grunbaum: Thank you, Nancy. It’s a pleasure to be here with you. [1:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Yes, well, you know, one thing that jumped out to me when I was doing research for this program is what you post on your website. No one is born a salesperson, but every business owner should be one. So, listen, why would you say that?
Valeria Grunbaum: Yes. Well, because we have the false perception or a lot of people have the false perception that a business is about the product, is about the service they do, is about operations, is about admin. But the truth is that without sales, there’s no business.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. That is so true. And we spoke before the podcast, everybody’s a salesperson. They may not want to admit it, but we’re all in the business of getting what we want. Isn’t that true?
Valeria Grunbaum: Since we are kids. I mean, if we think about a kid in the supermarket with his mom saying, hey, I want this candy or I want this cereal, there is a process of negotiation happening there, right? Between the mom and the kid. So, we are in cells since the moment that we are born and we learn that if we cry, we get something in return. So now cells are just a grow-up process of stating what we want and what we offer and getting something in exchange. Actually, I want to say that for those that have, I mean, those people that have kind of a negative emotion towards the word sales, the truth is that sales are nothing more than a communication process. That’s it. [3:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Totally agree with you and that’s a great segue. Another point that you believe in is, how do you communicate with customers or prospects through the sales process based on their personality style. Talk to us about that.
Valeria Grunbaum: Okay, so about 28 years ago, I learned to work with, I don’t know if you know about DISC, which is a behavioral assessment, where based on your personality style, you have different ways on how you communicate and how you need to receive the communication. And what happened is that I started using DISC within my sales process. I understood very early in my years that I shouldn’t communicate with people the way that I want to communicate. Instead, I should be communicating with people the way that they need to receive the communication. So, this is the transformation that happened in my business after that. Before I realized that I could use this, methodology with my sales process, I was closing out of 10 clients or 10 customers, let’s call it customers, I was closing only two clients. But then when I started implementing these techniques, and methodology within my sales process, I was working with 10 clients or customers, and I was closing eight clients. [5:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Yeah, you know what? Describe this to the audience though, the different communication styles.
Valeria Grunbaum: Okay, so we understand, I want to talk about the person that created this back in the 1920s, that he realized that there were, after the studies, the research that they did, they understood that there were four main personality styles. So, we are all different, but we are predictable and different. So, at that moment, they were doing all these studies about personality styles, but it was not used in business until the 40s and 50s. And then they started using it for human resources to recruit personnel for the companies. But nowadays we use it for communication, for sales, for many other things, for leadership and so on. So, what it is that there are four main personality styles, and depending on how you behave or how you think, you will most likely have four of them, but you will have one that is in the driver’s seat. Let’s put it that way. Imagine that you are a car, the car has four seats. So, you have all four, but you have one in the driver’s seat, one on the co-pilot, and then two on the passenger back in the passenger seat. So based on the one that is driving the car, you’re going to filter the information that you hear, or you feel, or you see. And then based on that is how you are going to respond or react. So, the driver’s seat is the one that decides how you see the world. [7:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Valeria Grunbaum: The one that is on the co-pilot has a lot of influence on how you see the world. So, when we start thinking, yes, we are a combination of those four, and you and I, we may have the same driver on the driver’s seat, but we may have the other three in different orders, different scales. And based on that, the report, the assessment will give you a report that tells you how you…communicate how you need to receive the communication, even how you sell, because we have one of the assessments specifically for sales. And so how you sell and how you need to communicate with each type of customer, type of customer based on their personality style, when you combine your personality style with your customer personality style. It’s very fascinating, Nancy. To me, almost in every conversation that I have, in my first two or three minutes, I have a goal to understand the personality style of the person. So, asking the right questions, and understanding how the other person thinks and how the other person behaves, help you to predict how the person is going to react when you present the information. [8:40]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. All right. But what are the four communication styles? Let the audience hear from you.
Valeria Grunbaum: Okay, so we have the D, the I, the S, and the C. So I’m not gonna say the names that we put into it because there are three million, if you go to Google, you will find three million different names for each of them. So, I don’t want even to people think about the names. I’m gonna talk about each of these, okay? So the “D” is that person who is direct, who is focused on the results that one thinks to be done fast, who doesn’t get hooked on the details, and who makes things happen. They know that they don’t know how they’re going to make it happen, but they know that they can make it happen and they do. They are very fast-paced. And then the “I” is people that are focused on people. I mean the “D”s are focused on the task. The “I” s are focused on the people and are more about them showing up. They are great cheerleaders. They are very optimistic. They talk with their arms open. Sometimes they talk even louder. They want to be noticed. When you have someone that is a high eye entering the room, everybody will know that person came. And they’re very, very social and they are very influential. And then you have the “S”, the high “S”, which is people that are very loyal, they’re introverted. They are people-oriented, but different from the “I”’s because the I’s is more out, and the “S” is more in. What I mean by these is they love people, and they want to serve. They want to nurture people. They want to help people. And they are very loyal. They are great employees. And they are 69% of the population are high “S”. Now, they are very slow-paced because their biggest fear is certainty. So, if, I should say uncertainty, right? I mean, the change of what they know. [11:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh really? Okay.
Valeria Grunbaum: So, they are very stable, they are very steady. Now the high “C”s, are detail-oriented. These people, want to know the step-by-step, they want to get all the information before they decide, so they take time to make decisions. They are task-oriented like they hide these, but the difference is that they hide these, they don’t need a step-by-step process, they just make it happen. The hide “C”s, need the step-by-step. They won’t skip a step, and they need proof before they decide. So, if we take this in cells, like if I’m working with a high-d client, my meeting is going to last 10, 15 minutes is going to be straightforward. Hey, let’s talk about business. If I’m talking with a high “I”, it’s going to be more kind of like “How is your family doing? How are you doing?”. So, I know that a meeting with a high “I” is going to last probably an hour because the high “I”s, we have to touch on a personal level. The high “D”s don’t touch the personal level. It’s kind of like, okay, yeah. But for the high “I”s, you need to touch on the personal level, and you need to let them talk. Right. If I keep interrupting a high “I” and I don’t let them share their story with me, I will break the rapport with them and I will lose them. So, the high “I”s, they are more, they are more about telling the story. And if they to decide, they will, they will call their friends. They will call the family. Sometimes I have high “I”s that they call me and say, hey, you know, because my friend worked with you, I want to work with you. So, they are very, they guide their decisions based on also what other people say. [13:16]
Nancy Calabrese: I’ve read somewhere that most salespeople are an “I”. Is that your experience?
Valeria Grunbaum: No, not really. I mean, high “I”s, are great salespeople because they tell great stories, they are very influential. High “D”s are great people also on sales because they are very straightforward. I mean, high “D”s can be on the phone prospecting with cold calls for hours and they don’t care about rejection. The high “I”s, do care about rejection. The biggest fear of a high “I” is rejection. So, you put a high “I” on the phone and it’s just gonna have a challenge. If high “I”s are great to work with, I will say warm customers, high Ds are great for cold calling or cold customers. Now, if we think about the “S” and the “C”, they are also great salespeople, but each of them is on their level. For example, the high “S”, because they are service-oriented, they are people-oriented, they are great for customer service. They are great to work with hot customers who already know our product, already know our company, because they are great. So, if you’re selling service, having someone who is a high “S” taking care of the customers after they were pre-qualified, is a great decision because that person will take care of that customer until the end. And then the high “C”s, they are great salespeople when you require a lot of information. For example, if you sell technology, if you sell something that has to be with a service or a product that requires something like computers, something that requires a lot of data, the high “C”s are great for doing that. Now, if we see it from the perspective of the customer, the high “C” is the customer that will ask you for information over and over and over and over and repeatedly. Right. And then if you put a high “D” salesperson working with a “C” customer, imagine the challenge that they’re going to have because the “D” wants things fast. The “C” needs information. It may take six months or eight months to make the decision, but the “D” doesn’t have the patient. So, what happens is that the “D” says, oh, this guy is wasting my time and they stop working with the customer. But the thing is the “S” and the “C” customers, take longer to make the decision, but they are very loyal customers. [16:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so funny. You know what? I am a “D” in an “I”. And I know when I’m speaking with a “C, I really must remind myself just to be patient and make sure that I pull out all the numbers and the stats. So, like you, I find this completely fascinating. Moving on, what is the biggest gap you’re seeing in businesses today?
Valeria Grunbaum: The lack of understanding that sales is the heart of their business. Period. That’s it. Business is struggling because they are so distracted by 10 million other things, and they are not putting effort into sales. Look, when we started, I remember the first few months of COVID, I remember speaking with some of my clients or clients or contacts, right? Business owners were calling me and saying: “Hey, you know, I just fired part of the company. I just fired these”. I was impressed how in most cases, the first team that they fired was people from their sales team. And I was like: “You’re doing it wrong” [18:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Why would they do that?
Valeria Grunbaum: Right, because if you don’t see sales as the heart of the business, then most likely you won’t have a business.
Nancy Calabrese: You won’t have a business. I totally agree with you. I can’t believe we are out of time, Valeria. You are fascinating. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Valeria Grunbaum: I would say pay attention yes to your process, to your products, to your operations, to your admin but make your sales the main focus of your business if you want to grow and if you want to have everything else operations products all of that will happen when you have sales.
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. How can my people find you?
Valeria Grunbaum: Well, they can find me on LinkedIn by Valeria Grunbaum or even go to my website valeriagrunbaum.com. But the easiest way, is LinkedIn, I’m there. So, it’s the easiest way to reach out to me. [19:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Yes, spell your last name.
Valeria Grunbaum: Grunbaum is G as in George, R as in Robert, U, N as in Nancy, B as in boy, A as in apple, U, M as in Mari. So, Valeria Grunbaum.
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. Beautiful name, beautiful name. Hey folks, reach out to her, please. She’s a wealth of knowledge. And you know, remember, no one is born a salesperson, but every business owner should be one. I hope you come back sometime Valeria and make it a great sales day everyone.
Valeria Grunbaum: Thank you. [19:49]
by Nancy Calabrese | Oct 17, 2023 | Podcast
About Eric Recker: Eric is the Owner and CEO of WintheNOW, LLC, where they help High-Achieving Leaders to #WINtheNOW and design a life where they are working to become the best version of themselves for themselves and those around them. He has also been a dentist since 2002 and has led a team of 18 dentists since 2002. Eric has been a pilot since 2018, traveling to 12 countries and 46 states. He has been mentoring and coaching most of his life. As a Certified Elite Success Coach, he works with high-achiever personalities who want to #WINtheNOW and enjoy life while realizing their goals. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Eric.
In this episode, Nancy and Eric discuss the following:
- What’s common in dentists and coaches?
- The story of Eric’s burnout journey.
- Lessons from climbing the mountain of life.
- Tips for leading a team of 18 and staying like a family.
- A pivot from dentistry to coaching and speaking.
- 30 minutes of quiet: the technique to hear yourself.
- How has COVID-19 changed Eric’s burnout phase?
Key Takeaways:
- One of the biggest things that I’ve been gifted with is to be able to teach from my journey.
- I had been so distracted by achievement, and I wasn’t getting any satisfaction out of any of this.
- As business owners, entrepreneurs, people in the business world, and even people in life, we must understand why we are working so hard, or we’ll end up with many hollow achievements.
- We won’t make it if we don’t have time for our brains to idle when we’re not consumed with screens.
“I believe that one of the most important things we have in our life is our relationships. So, in our office, we are a family. We go through highs and lows together. We go through the journey of life together. So, one of the significant things in our office is knowing our patients’ stories and our other team members’ stories. So, people from this other company had noticed: “Boy, when we come in for our appointments, we’re not just a number; we’re asked how we’re doing. We have a little bit of conversation before we sit down. And then, through every step of the process, we know what’s going on. We know the next step, and we’re noticed”. So that’s one thing I stress with my team is that we have to notice people because many people go through life and they’re never noticed. They may be because they’re isolated working from home, maybe because it can be a laundry list of reasons, but when they come into our office, if their name calls them and they are asked how they’re doing, then that’s two touch points right there where someone feels like they’re seen, heard, and they’re valued. And that’s huge in our current society.” – ERIC.
“Through those 30 minutes of quiet, and believe me, I failed big time when I started this. The first day I looked at my watch, 45 seconds into it, I thought: “Boy, I got to be getting close.” So I tried to give my mind just some space to run. Faith is a big part of my life, so having some quiet space for God to be able to speak to me or to be able to hear what’s impressed upon my heart. During that time, I had to bring myself back to the moment for the first couple of times, probably every minute or two as my mind would wander and use a re-centering phrase like: “I am here”. I would say to myself: “I am here, right here, right now”. And then, I would get back to focusing on my breathing. And things like that helped me stay in that moment, in that quiet moment. And I think without that the burnout would have spiraled more and more.” – ERIC.
“Yeah, I think what we’re going to find in our lives is the biggest regrets that we’re going to have been going to be at the end of our life when we realize things that we didn’t try, things that we more of the regrets of omission. The things that we didn’t put ourselves out there for. So, it’s important for people to know what success looks like at this stage of life. And then also to know that that’s dynamic. So, a year from now, success might look different. So, to keep re-examining that and realize: “Okay, what are the opportunities I have in front of me that I’m not taking advantage of? And the decisions I must make if I don’t do these things… Are these the things that I will regret five years down the road, ten years down the road?” – ERIC.
Connect with Eric Recker:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Eric Recter, owner and CEO of Win the Now. Eric helps high-achieving leaders design a life where they are working to become the best version of themselves for themselves and those around them. He is also a dentist, keynote speaker, elite success coach, author, pilot, mountain climber, and a recovering triathlete. Eric, I’m gonna just jump right in. Welcome to the show.
Eric Recker: Thanks for having me, Nancy. I’m excited to be here. [00:58]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I mean, I don’t honestly, I don’t know where to begin. You have such a fascinating background. I, and I’ve never had a dentist on the show before.
Eric Recker: Well, I don’t know if that’s good or bad. Maybe there are no expectations. So, it’ll be, it’ll just flow.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, I think there’s always a first time for everything. So, first question, I mean, how do you go from dentist to coaching and speaking?
Eric Recker: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, I think one of the biggest things that I’ve been gifted with is to be able to teach from my journey. So, the reason that I can speak, and coach is because I have a story of overcompensating. I have a story of chasing a lot of things that really didn’t matter. And the reason that you read so many things about me is because I have pushed my life to the limit. And for most of my life, I didn’t really know why I was pushing my life to the limit. So now that I’ve discovered that a little bit more, I love to help other people in their lives. [2:07]
Nancy Calabrese: I know you mentioned you have your burnout journey. What is that about?
Eric Recker: Yeah. So, I think I became, uh, burned out because I was bullied when I was growing up. And so, when I was younger in elementary school, I was not allowed to play recess kickball, so that doesn’t seem like much of a big thing when I’m 46 years old. But recess kickball was life. Among other things, as I was bullied, I was told that I wasn’t good enough. And so, I believe that story that I wasn’t good enough. And I remember as a third grader standing on the recess kickball field, off to the side, making a pact with myself that I was going to be so darn good at everything in my life that no one would ever not pick me again. And so, when you make such a declaration to yourself, then you live that way, and you chase everything to try to make people believe that you’re good enough. And burnout for me, largely came from pushing too hard and not taking care of myself. [3:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Whose decision was it that you weren’t allowed to play?
Eric Recker: The other kids on the playground. So right now, I’m 6’5″, pretty athletic, pretty lean. At that point, you could call me Husky. So, I was uncomfortable in my body. I was young for my class. I was rough around the edges. And quite honestly, I probably wasn’t very good, but my only hope was to be good enough, to be able to be on the field to prove to others that I was good enough to play.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Yeah, well, you know what? Shame on the teachers. They should have jumped right in, but sorry you had to go through that. Lessons from climbing the mountain of life. Talk about that.
Eric Recker: Yeah. So, this is part of the realization that I came to. It was always what was going to be good enough. So, I started with a 5k and that wasn’t good enough. And that got to a 10k half marathon, then into a triathlon through the Ironman distance. And none of that was ever good enough. And then I found myself at the top of a mountain in Colorado a couple of days before I was going to do a hundred-mile mountain bike race. And the realization I had at the top of that mountain is if you don’t know why you’re climbing the mountain, you’re not going to find the answer at the top. And so, I had been so distracted by achievement and I wasn’t getting any satisfaction out of any of this. So, it was just climbing the next mountain, doing the next thing, signing up for everything. Keep proving that you’re good enough. And I realized that I need to know why I’m climbing the mountain. And I think as business owners, entrepreneurs, people in the business world, and even people in life, we must understand what our why is. We must understand why we are working so hard or else we’re just going to end up with a bunch of hollow achievements. [5:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, Simon Sinek and his talk about why. And so, you have a team of 18 people, correct?
Eric Recker: Absolutely. I do, yes, in my dental practice.
Nancy Calabrese: In your dental practice and you shared with me that you were approached, or the front desk team was approached by another company asking to teach them communication skills. What was that about?
Eric Recker: Yeah, so I believe that one of the most important things that we have in our life is our relationships. So, in our office, we are a family. We go through highs and lows together. We go through the journey of life together. So, one of the things that’s extremely important in our office is knowing our patients’ stories and knowing our other team members’ stories. So, one of the things that our front desk is amazing at, and our entire team really is amazing at, is knowing people’s stories, walking along the journey with those people. So, people from this other company had noticed: “Boy, when we come in for our appointments, we’re not just a number, we’re asked how we’re doing”. We have a little bit of conversation before we sit down. And then through every step of the process, we know what’s going on. We know what the next step is going to be, and we’re noticed. So that’s one thing I really stress with my team is that we have to notice people because a lot of people go through life, and they’re never noticed. They may be because they’re isolated working from home, maybe because it can be a laundry list of reasons, but when they come into our office, if they are called by their name and they are asked how they’re doing, then that’s two touch points right there where someone feels like they’re seen, like they’re heard, and like they’re valued. And that’s huge in our current society. [7:33]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, I agree. I mean, communication is everything, you know, in sales, in business, in life in general. How did you pivot from dentistry to coaching and speaking?
Eric Recker: Yeah, great question. So, from the different seasons of burnout that I went through and especially ramping up towards COVID, COVID was, was crazy for everybody, but my family had a vacation plan to the south of Spain. So, we were going to stay in the Mediterranean Sea. We were going to do a whole bunch of fun stuff. We were going to travel to Morocco, to Tangier to see some of the places where the James Bond films were shot. And it was an important vacation for my family because my oldest son was graduating high school and it felt like the walls were closing in. He was going to head off to college. So then suddenly all our plans changed, and my plans changed, your plans changed, everybody’s plans changed. So, I had to figure out what to do with some discretionary time as my dental office was closed for eight weeks. And we were super fortunate in Iowa that we were only closed for eight weeks. I’m super thankful for that. But during that time, I committed to 30 minutes of quiet every day. And that was a foreign concept for me. I was always pushed through everything. [09:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Eric Recker: But through that 30 minutes of quiet and believe me, I failed big time when I started this out. I think the first day I looked at my watch, 45 seconds into it, and thought, boy, I got to be getting close. And I think a lot of people can resonate with that because we have, I don’t know about you, Nancy, but my head spins a lot of the time with a whole bunch of stuff, and quiet has been huge for me to try to slow that down. And during that time, that’s when I discovered the win the now message, which is all about helping people live present in their own lives, present to the current moment. So, we’re not stuck in the past or worried about the future because what we have is what’s right in front of us. [10:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, so 30 minutes of quiet, what are you thinking?
Eric Recker: Yeah, so what I tried to do is give my mind just some space to run. Faith is a big part of my life, so having some quiet space for God to be able to speak to me or to be able to hear what’s impressed upon my heart. During that time, I really had to bring myself back to the moment, you know, for the first couple of times, probably every minute or two as my mind would really wander and just use kind of a re-centering phrase like I am here. I would just say to myself, I am here, right here, right now. And then I would get back to focusing on my breathing. And things like that helped me stay in that moment, in that quiet moment. And I think without that the burnout just would have spiraled more and more and more. [10:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So, it sounds like you really changed the burnout phase during COVID, is that correct?
Eric Recker: Yeah, that was the attempt. Uh, but what was crazy about our profession is that we were kind of dentistry was kind of seen as, maybe not public enemy number one, but we were pretty high because the procedures that we did generate aerosols and there was the potential for high contact of COVID with our patients. So that’s why we were shut down. Well, when we went, came back, there were all kinds of new air purifiers and vacuum machines that we would put close to people’s mouths while we were doing procedures and extra PPE and all of that. So ironically, the burnout got worse because I was trying to manage my team who was overwhelmed by how hot we were when we worked with all this extra gear on, how hard it was to breathe behind an N95 mask, and all of that. So, the burnout increased after COVID, which is not what I was hoping would happen. Yeah, and ultimately, I got very close to selling my dental practice and walking away because of the level of burnout. [12:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Well, things have changed now, haven’t they?
Eric Recker: Things have absolutely changed. And at this point, I did end up selling half of my dental practice to a partner. It’s a fantastic relationship. And so now I’m able to through win the now and the different things that I, that I have learned over my life. I’ve started doing some keynote speaking, some coaching, and some writing. And now I have, so Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I see patients in my office. Thursday and Friday, I work on what I call the content side of my business. So that’s the speaking and coaching and content creation. [13:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, you’re still juggling a lot though, would you say?
Eric Recker: For sure, for sure. And so, I must be careful with how I structure my days because it can lead to burnout again. So, things like making sure I stick with the quiet, and making sure I do things like time blocking to make sure that I’m not just letting my mind run are important. [13:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Eric Recker: Hmm, something that’s true that no one agrees with me on. I think we’ve bought the lie that, and I know maybe not everybody doesn’t agree with this, but we’ve bought the lie that, um, it’s okay to be isolated and it’s okay to spend all the time that we do on our devices and on our streaming services and all of that, but I really think that we are in a time that if we don’t have good quality relationships, and if we don’t have times for our brains to idle when we’re not consumed with screens, then we’re not going to make it. We might survive, but we’re not going to thrive. [14:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh! And what is the one takeaway you’d like to leave the audience with?
Eric Recker: Yeah, I think what’s what we’re going to find in our lives is the biggest regrets that we’re going to have been going to be at the end of our life when we realize things that we didn’t try things that we more of the regrets of omission. The things that we, that we didn’t put ourselves out there for. So, to me, I think it’s important for people to know what success looks like at this stage of life. And then also to know that that’s dynamic. So, a year from now, success might look different. So, to keep re-examining that and realize: “Okay, what are the opportunities that I have in front of me that I’m not taking advantage of? And the decisions that I must make if I don’t do these things… Are these the things that I’m going to regret five years down the road, 10 years down the road?” [15:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Do you have any other aspirations, any feat that you want to achieve?
Eric Recker: Yeah, so I, it’s been a little while since I’ve had, a physical challenge. So, I kind of kicked triathlon to the curb several years ago. I’ve climbed a couple of mountains. There’s a, there’s a challenge that I want to do next year that involves, involves mountain climbing, but basically, there’s a place that will rent out a ski resort for the weekend and you hike up and take the sky tram back down or ski lift back down until you get to a total of 29,000 vertical feet. So, it’s a Mount Everest climbing simulation without the snow and the risk of dying and all that kind of stuff. It’s a 36-hour challenge so that’s what I’m hoping to get on my calendar for next year. We’ll see where the locations are. They haven’t been released yet, but I need a physical challenge. [16:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, my goodness. And did you ever make it to Spain?
Eric Recker: We have not made it to Spain yet. It remains on the bucket list and, uh, but we’ve had a lot of life transitions with my oldest son getting married, my youngest son, we moved him to college just this last weekend. So, we’re kind of in the take a deep breath phase right now.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, okay. Eric, how can my people find you?
Eric Recker: Yeah, the easiest place to find me is my website. It’s just www.ericrecker.com. From there, there are links to all my social media. There are links to my keynote speaking and coaching and the book that I wrote. And the blog that I do weekly. So that’s kind of home base for me and a great place to start. [17:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Wonderful. I can’t thank you enough for sharing your amazing story. I mean, now I’m motivated. I’ve got to figure out something I must do, but I don’t think it’s going to be athletic. Not the way you are athletically anyway. So, everyone, reach out to Eric. He’s so fascinating. And he is, as you can hear, very welcoming to listen to. Share your stories with him. Make it a great sales day. And Eric, again, thanks for being on the show.
Eric Recker: Thanks so much for having me, Nancy. [17:57]
by Nancy Calabrese | Oct 10, 2023 | Podcast
About Jessie van Breugel: Jessie is the Founder of Realigned Coaching creator of Brand Yourself as A Creator: The Ultimate Guide and The Branded Creators Community. Co-founder of Build Your House Club, a vibrant community of creators to clarify your message, produce consistent value, & grow your audience. He views himself as a visual copywriter, using words and design to share his message. His vision is to bring wisdom to everyday life and inspire others to live on their terms—currently, 3x Top Writer on Medium in Inspiration, Social Media, and Entrepreneurship. A former employee of one of Europe’s hottest tech unicorns turned digital creator. He is building his business at the crossroads of writing, visual design, product management, and digital marketing. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Jessie.
In this episode, Nancy and Jessie discuss the following:
- How to make the most out of LinkedIn.
- Master the art of selling on LinkedIn without sounding too pushy.
- Understand how building connections on LinkedIn can lead to successful sales.
- Explore why the term ‘sales’ often has a negative perception.
- Determine the ideal posting frequency on LinkedIn for optimal results.
- Gain insights into the algorithms that LinkedIn uses to block certain accounts.
- Avoid common mistakes when creating content on LinkedIn to enhance engagement.
Key Takeaways:
- You never know who’s watching on LinkedIn because people are scrolling the feed and waiting for that message or content to help them act.
- Sales has a negative connotation because people often think about the door-to-door salesman or woman, car sales dealers, etc.
- To sell your stuff to your audience, people need to see it. That’s why reactions are essential.
- A lesson that I learned over time is that you want to let a post-run for a few days because if a post does well, even a week later, it could still reach new people.
- I am like, “Hey, educational content is great, but move towards more authority-building content, and then we can transform it into lead-generating content.”
“I would say the traditional thinking of LinkedIn is that it’s still a place where people share updates about new jobs or certain company updates. I had that too out of sight till about three years back, but I also figured out that LinkedIn is still the number one business platform in the world. And as we see with all the content platforms, like the social media platforms, there is a big drive towards content creation. I started writing online, and at a certain point, I wondered why not go to LinkedIn. Because as I just said, there are so many decision-makers, potential people watching there waiting for that, waiting for the call to action also say.” – JESSIE
“One of the frameworks that I heavily use for myself and my clients is the acronym FODOFs. It stands for fear, objections, desire, obstacles, and frustrations. Of course, we don’t want to always use them all in one piece of content, but by strategically using each for a specific type of content, we can show our audience or our prospect that we understand them.” – JESSIE.
“I hear that perspective, and I would say earlier on in my career, I also had this notion that selling is bad or self-promoting is bad. So, I had to debunk that for myself. And now I believe that if you genuinely know that you, your service, or your product is helping your audience or your clients, it’s almost a disservice not to tell them about it because I know I solve a very hot topic, like lead generation on LinkedIn. And I know that I help a lot of people with that. Like if I look at my clients’ results, I’m helping them get more business. I’m helping them make more money. So sure, like I’m selling to my audience, but I also know that the right people were like: “Hey, this really helps me!”. And I think that’s for all of us. Like if we know that because that’s what entrepreneurship at its core is, right? It’s like, someone has a problem, someone else has a solution, and it’s either a service or a product that helps them get from A to B.” – JESSIE.
Connect with Jessie van Breugel:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Jessie Van Breugel, a LinkedIn expert and founder of Realign Coaching and the Creator Academy. He is also a Co-founder of Build Your House Club, a vibrant community of creators to clarify your message, produce consistent value, and grow your audience. Jesse identifies himself as a digital creator who’s building cool stuff and helping as many like-minded experts generate high-quality leads for their service business through LinkedIn and email. Jesse was named as a top-50 LinkedIn creator worldwide. Congratulations on that, Jesse, and welcome to the show.
Jessie van Breugel: Well, that’s an interesting introduction, but thanks for having me, Nancy. I’m excited to chat with you and the audience today. [1:18]
Nancy Calabrese: The one thing that jumps out and you have posted on your website, LinkedIn has over 63 million decision-makers. That’s amazing.
Jessie van Breugel: Exactly. And that brings me to, I’ll say, one of my favorite sayings that I keep repeating to my clients. You never know who’s watching on LinkedIn, because there are always people scrolling the feed and waiting for that message or that piece of content to help them act.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So how, you know, as a novice, right, you’re the expert, how do you leverage the potential on LinkedIn?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, that’s a great question because most, I would say, the traditional thinking of LinkedIn, okay, it’s still a place where people share updates about new jobs or certain company updates. I had that too out of sight till like three years back, but I also figured out that LinkedIn is the, like, it’s still the number one business platform in the world. And as we see with, like, all the content platforms, like the social media platforms, there is such a big drive towards content creation. I got started on writing online and at a certain point I was like, why not go to LinkedIn? Because as I just said, there are so many decision-makers, potential people watching there waiting for that, waiting for the call to action also say. [2:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Sure. How do you know what to write to really get the attention of the audience?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, I think that’s like trial and error. It comes in the beginning from like speaking to as many people as possible from your target audience, like from peers, and competitors, but also from your prospects and to really infuse those emotional angles in your content. So, one of the frameworks that I heavily use for myself, and for my clients, it’s the acronym called FODOFS. It stands for fear, objections, desire, obstacles, and frustrations. Of course, we don’t want to always use them all in one piece of content, but by strategically using each one of them for a specific type of content, we can show our audience or our prospect that we really understand them. [3:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, okay. Can you repeat that acronym?
Jessie van Breugel: for sure. So, it’s FODOF, which stands for fear, objection, desire, obstacle, and frustration. So those are the main five buckets.
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, okay. So how do you sell on LinkedIn without being salesy?
Jessie van Breugel: That’s a good question because I think that’s one of the bad raps selling on LinkedIn has because people feel, okay, it’s too much promoting and like in your face. And I think that’s where like implementing the photos has been a big game changer for me, but also really applying like storytelling principles. Because in the end, we learn as humans through stories. And especially as we’re all working with our clients, mostly on a one-on-one or a group setting of service providers, we have tangible results of before and after with our clients. So that’s of course where a case study framework always comes into play because we can write a story about how their life was before working with us and that’s often painful or frustrating. [5:01] We did work together.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Right.
Jessie van Breugel: And at the end, it’s rainbows and sunshine. It’s like the desired state, and it comes with a lot of peace of mind and relief. So that’s, I think, a simple example of how we can infuse selling into storytelling. Because people on LinkedIn, they see the post, they see the first two, or three lines, and they want to click see more. And only at the end, if the story’s, of course, captivating enough, they will see, oh, I’m being sold to, in a bit of a quote, instead of straight out of the gate, like asking people for their contact details or whatever. I don’t think that’s the right way of doing it. [5:37]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, I have a colleague, and we didn’t agree on this, but she also works in the LinkedIn space, and she doesn’t believe that connecting in LinkedIn should be used to sell. And I disagree. You know, I mean, it’s very nice to have a conversation, but…You know, the goal is to connect with like-minded people in the hopes that it might convert to business. What do you have to say about that?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, I hear that perspective and I would say earlier on in my career, I also had this notion of like, like selling is a bad thing or like self-promoting is a bad thing. So, I had to like, like debunk that for myself. And now I really believe that if you genuinely know that you, your, service, or your product is helping you, your audience, or your clients, it’s almost a disservice to not tell them about it because I know I solve a very hot topic, like lead generation on LinkedIn. And I know that I help a lot of people with that. Like if I look at the results of my clients, I’m helping them get more business. I’m helping them make more money. So sure, like I’m selling to my audience, but I also know that the right people, they were like, hey, this really helps me. And I think that’s for all of us. Like if we know that because that’s what entrepreneurship at its core is, right? It’s like, someone has a problem, someone else has a solution to it, and it’s either a service or a product that helps them get from A to B. [7:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. I mean, why is sales such a bad word? I don’t get it. It’s just, you know, an opportunity to communicate with someone else. And if it’s a match, that’s like you just said, I think it would be a disservice not to want to go to convert to, you know, a client.
Jessie van Breugel: Exactly. Yeah. And I think sales have a negative connotation because people often think about the door-to-door salesman or woman the sleazy cars, car sales dealers. Back when I was in high school. I liked for one year I did like the door-to-door sales, but of course, like it’s Super cold because I was just walking like a small village in Holland where I’m from and that’s of course like that what gives selling a bad thing because people are just enjoying their dinner because we always went to like dinner time or like the end of the afternoon. And people were not waiting for us. So, they opened the door and there I was like pitching them straight out of nothing. So of course, that’s like the old way of like doing sales. I think has given a bad rep. But as your show is, of course, also like brilliantly named, it’s like Conversational Selling is a different aspect of that because you’re selling something based on like the conversation and like a mutual connection, understanding that you can help this person, or this group of people get closer to where they want to go. [8:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, you just triggered a memory when I was in, I don’t know, even think I was in high school, maybe junior high, I went door to door selling cards, and I hated it. I hated it. You know?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, exactly. It was not my favorite job either, but it taught me a lot about rejection and just putting in the reps and all those things. [9:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Right. You know, it’s funny. I want to talk to you about impressions. And maybe you can tell the audience what an impression is and how to convert them to conversations.
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, so in a nutshell, impressions on any platform, but let’s take LinkedIn for the example, of course, is someone that sees your content. So that’s the pair of eyeballs that sees your content. And it’s often said that impressions are like a vanity metric. You don’t want to care too much about it. But still, to sell your stuff to your audience, to put it plainly, people need to see it. So, it’s like a fine line between, okay, I need to have people see my things, but I also don’t need to care about too much. And I think the interesting part is where, there is a difference between like, let’s say transactional things, like let’s say consumer goods or like high ticket services as we’re here doing here, because people that see my content for the first time the chances are extremely low that they will buy instantly, because especially with high ticket service, it also needs to be a lot of trust and credibility built. And by just having a consistent output of content, each piece of content will of course move the prospect closer to reaching out to you signing up for your program, or booking a call. And I think that’s why content is such a highly leveraged asset you can build. That’s how I see it because I push out content every day knowing that I see it as like an army of digital warriors. So, they all go out and they travel the world as to say, getting impressions, getting people to see my name, to see perhaps my profile, to get them closer to working with me. So, I think that’s like the short answer to the impressions and how they, I would say tie into getting people to buy your things or to do business with you. [11:15]
Nancy Calabrese: So how do you find the impressions of people who looked at it?
Jessie van Breugel: Do you mean where you can see them?
Nancy Calabrese: Like for instance, if you had 300 plus impressions, how are you going to find those people?
Jessie van Breugel: That’s an interesting question because I currently don’t use any external analytics for LinkedIn because I had my account flagged a few times, so I don’t want to risk it to add additional tools to LinkedIn. So, I’m currently just staring at the native analytics from LinkedIn. Basically, what it shows me is the people who are engaging or who are seeing my post. [12:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Jessie van Breugel: But I don’t use it as a steering metric in my business. As I said earlier, sure, it’s nice to see for me that my impressions go up week after week. But I rate the success of my content more by the conversations it starts or the inbound leads it gets me.
Nancy Calabrese: Got it. So, you mentioned that you post every day on LinkedIn. Is there, you know, could people be posting too much content? What are your thoughts on that?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. Before I got to LinkedIn, I was active on Twitter. And on Twitter, there was much more frequency. So, tweeting a few times a day is there the norm. When I got to LinkedIn, I kind of adopted that mindset. Understanding it wouldn’t be the most strategic decision because the LinkedIn algorithm works in such a way that the posts have more of like a long tail. But in the beginning, I really understood like, okay, for me to get more data on what works and what doesn’t work, I just need to put in the reps and to see what resonates with my audience. Ideally, it’s like one post a day, which for me works the best, but a lesson that I learned over time and that ties into having LinkedIn or LinkedIn having the long-term effect of a post is that if a post of you does really well, so let’s say it’s like sometimes it’s like it does like three to four times better than other posts, you just want to let it run for a few days because if a post does well, like a week later, it could still reach new people. So, I think that’s where the difference comes into play. And that ties in with what I said earlier, like the good piece of content, I see that as like an army of digital warriors for me just conquering new ground. [14:05]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Jessie van Breugel: Tapping into new audiences and looking for new people.
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. You mentioned that you’ve been flagged. Why does LinkedIn flag accounts?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, that’s a good question. I don’t have a finite answer to that. I know they are wary of third-party tools. So, I know certain accounts just have issues with it. I’m not saying that’s the case for everyone, because I know a lot of my connections, they thrive with those tools. I think my account just got, I don’t know, marked somewhere in the system. So I’m really hesitant about that. So yeah, I don’t have a finite answer to that. It’s hard to get. clear on the algorithm and the restrictions there. [14:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh. So, what are some of the common mistakes providers make when creating content on LinkedIn?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, so the first one would be right out of the gate, like promotional posts, which ties into the quad, one of the questions you asked me earlier, because especially as a service provider, no one buys from the get-go, right? There needs to be some trust and some credibility built, which is often done to like case studies and testimonials and seeing like, okay, this works. So, I think that’s one of the big mistakes that I see happening. And then on the other side of the spectrum is that when service providers, post consistent content, they stay too much on the educational side of things. So, all they do every time that they post, they educate their audience on, let’s say the benefits of their solution or certain elements or insights from their industry, which is great to a certain degree, because I know that my clients, for example, they’re not looking for more information. Like the internet is full of information. [15:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Jessie van Breugel: they’re looking for implementation, guidance, support, accountability, like all these things that are currently missing, because if the information would be the answer to their problem, they would probably already have fixed it. So, I think that is like a big… It’s a minor tweak, but it has a massive impact. So, people that I work with, I’m like, hey, educational content is great, but move towards more authority-building content, and then we can transform it into lead-generating content, because…We’re all experts at what we do. So, I think, as I said earlier, our audience deserves to know it. But we don’t want to educate them only.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. And that brings me to something that I get a lot of. I get invited to attend events. How do you feel about that?
Jessie van Breugel: To LinkedIn events? Yeah, they’re an interesting thing because even like the, like, let’s say you’re in a LinkedIn event, the comments on the event itself count as comments to the actual posts. So, there’s like an interesting dynamic going on there, but I never really used them that much in terms of my growth. Like I prefer to do like a webinar perhaps on Zoom. [17:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Jessie van Breugel: Just use LinkedIn for the promotion and have people then sign up to the link. So that’s been my way of doing that. Plus, the fact that I don’t see that many events on my timeline and within LinkedIn’s inner circles that I’m part of, it’s just like, it’s not really talked about that way. So, for me, that’s a little bit more validation that what I’m doing and what I do to my clients, it’s not the best way of moving forward.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Wow. And you know, and we’re almost up in time, but tell me something that’s true, that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Jessie van Breugel: Hmm, within which context Nancy?
Nancy Calabrese: Maybe with LinkedIn, your area of expertise.
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, I would say within my spheres, I think more people agree with me on that, but it ties into what I said earlier, is like selling on LinkedIn is not a bad thing. Like I’m pretty like hard on that stance because sure you don’t want to like to be this annoying salesman every day all day. But again, like if you do a great job at speaking into the emotional angles of your target audience, if you hint at a better solution, if you tell them…what better future is possible? And you showed that other people got results through that as well. I do think there is, I do know that there is a lot of potential on LinkedIn because so many people are watching there at this stage. I think we have over 900 million people on LinkedIn and less than 1% of people actively like post content. So, people are scrolling, they’re scrolling and lurking on LinkedIn. So yeah, I would say. If you know, okay, I’m genuinely solving this problem for the right people, that you’re doing a service to those people. And not everyone is part of your audience. So certain people will be tuned out by you taking a more promotional angle. But I think that’s fine. [19:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Wow. So less than 1% post?
Jessie van Breugel: Consistently, yeah. So, the stats on that differ a little bit, but less than 1% like post weekly. So, you can assume that even less than that post daily, like I currently do.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Wow, interesting. How can my audience find you?
Jessie van Breugel: Yeah, so the best way of course is LinkedIn. My full name is Jesse van Breugel, pretty Dutch. So that’s why I think a year and a half back I added a purple dot to my name. So, if people just type in my LinkedIn, my first name, Jesse, and then furlough the purple dot, they can connect with me. Or if they’re interested in one of the courses that I’m building, they can go to premiumleadsystem.com. And it has all the content and modules and all the strategies that I discussed today in different forms. [20:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Cool, how do you spell your last name?
Jessie van Breugel: It’s V-E-N-B-R-E-U-G-L.
Nancy Calabrese: You got it. Everyone, take advantage of what Jesse has to offer and make it a great sales day. Jesse, I hope you come back sometime.
Jessie van Breugel: Well, thanks again for having me, Nancy, and I will take you on that.
Nancy Calabrese: All right. Have a good one, everyone. [20:40]
by Nancy Calabrese | Oct 3, 2023 | Podcast
About Steve Lowell: Steve Lowell is the 20-2021 President of the Global Speakers Federation. He’s been on the live stage for over 50 years, is a Certified Speaking Professional (CSP), and a multi-award-winning professional speaker. Steve speaks to entrepreneurs and shows them how to establish a reputation as the unmistakable authority in their field by changing how they present and sell their expertise. As a main stage speaker at your event, Steve will keep your entire audience captivated, engaged, and entertained. If your audiences are entrepreneurs, business owners, thought leaders, experts, or innovators, Steve will shake their beliefs, disrupt their perspectives, and inspire them to become more than they ever thought they could be. Steve’s content is educational, transformative, and interactive. But most of all, you’ll find Steve to be extremely easy to work with! He rarely uses slides and he always delivers. Steve is an informational keynote speaker. His content is targeted at experts who need a simple method to present, explain, and sell their complex solutions through the spoken word. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Steve.
In this episode, Nancy and Steve discuss the following:
- The art of speaking to sell without selling.
- Steve’s tips on how to become a transformational speaker.
- The best way of making money through speaking.
- Why would so many people struggle to monetize when they speak?
- Sharing information with the audience that will make it buy your product.
- Introverts are the best public speakers.
- The myths that entrepreneurs believe prevent them from making money when they speak.
Key Takeaways:
- The reason why so many people struggle is because we’re under this misconception that when we get in front of an audience, our job is to solve their problem.
- What people are looking for from a speaker is not a solution; they’re looking for clarity.
- Instead of going to an audience and saying: “Here’s the solution to your problem,” go to the audience who says: “Here is why the problem exists and why you need me.”
- As an introvert, I’d much rather be in front of an audience where I’m comfortable than at a party of 10 or 12 where I am less comfortable.
- I believe the audience needs to feel like they are understood.
“So, on that side of the business, speak to sell is where you get in front of an audience of targeted prospects, and you speak a certain way, and then they come up and hire you or buy your stuff from you. And the key there is for most people is that most people hate to sell. Most people really don’t like standing in front of an audience or even in front of a prospect and feel like a salesperson. So, when I say without selling, it means that there are techniques that one can use to generate business through the spoken word without feeling like you must have a shower afterward.” – STEVE
“We have this message that people need to hear, but having the message isn’t enough. It needs to be packaged in a way that people can receive the message openly and be able to apply it to their own lives. And so there are certain characteristics that I teach people to build into their message so that the audience can be open to receiving the message and to be able to receive it in a way that is relevant to them so that they can go forth and make change.” – STEVE
“And it’s difficult to break into that area. There are high barriers of entry, but anybody can learn to get in front of an audience, whether it’s live or virtual, and sell their products and services and make far more in a single presentation than they could ever make being paid by an association or a corporation. So, this is the way my wife and I do it. And you can, and I say you as a general you, pretty much anybody who puts a little bit of effort and thought into it can get in front of an audience and sell their products and services and generate enormous amounts of business through speaking if they know how to do it well. And that’s what we focus on, is teaching people how to do that. So that’s really the best way to make money speaking.” – STEVE
Connect with Steve Lowell:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Steve Lowell, a multi-award-winning speaker, three times number one bestselling author, and master trainer for high-impact speakers with a track record that speaks for itself. Having given over 3,500 keynote speeches, and 5,000 seminars and trained more than 500,000 speakers globally, Steve delivers innovative strategies that help speakers drive revenue from the stage and build wealth through speaking. As a main stage speaker at any event, Steve keeps audiences captivated, engaged, and entertained. He’s also a member and past president of the Global Speakers Federation. Welcome to the show, Steve. So, you’re going to teach us all about public speaking.
Steve Lowell: Peace. Oh, well, if that’s what you want to talk about, that’s, I’m happy to do that with you, Nancy. Thank you for inviting me. [1:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, that’s, you’re the expert here. And you know, I read somewhere that you believe speak to sell without selling. What do you mean by that?
Steve Lowell: So, let’s take the world of professional speaking, and break it down into two categories, two major categories. The first category would be the speak-for-fee category. And this is where most people think they want to play where this is where you go to an event, you speak, you get paid, you go home, you go to the next one, you speak, you get paid, you go and that’s how you earn your living. And so that’s what a lot of aspiring speakers dream of, and certainly that is available and it’s one way to go. And I played in that world for many years, but there’s this other side of the world, the other side of the speaking business that we call Speak to Sell. This is particularly valuable for people who have products or services that they’re marketing, and they use speaking to drive clients into that business. So, coaches, consultants, thought leaders, experts of all different kinds, or people who are you know, going into the act B of their life. And they’ve spent all these years amassing this knowledge and wisdom, and now they want to package it up and sell it. So, on that side of the business, speak to sell is where you get in front of an audience of targeted prospects and you speak a certain way, and then they come up and hire you or buy your stuff from you. And the key there is for most people is that most people hate to sell. Most people really don’t like standing in front of an audience or even in front of a prospect and feel like a salesperson. So, when I say without selling, it means that there are techniques that one can use to generate business through the spoken word without feeling like you must have a shower afterward. [3:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, how does someone become a transformational speaker?
Steve Lowell: So transformational speaker is obviously a very wide term, but from my perspective, a couple of things need to be in place. These items are not necessarily listed in order of priority, but somebody needs to have, first, a compelling message. I mean, a real message that people really need to hear. Usually, these messages come from experience, and it might be a major life experience, a major accomplishment, a major challenge, or something like that. So, we have this message that people need to hear, but having the message isn’t enough. It needs to be packaged in a way that people can receive the message openly and be able to apply it to their own lives. And so there are certain characteristics that I teach people to build into their message so that the audience can be open to receiving the message and to be able to receive it in a way that is relevant to them so that they can go forth and make change. [4:11]
Nancy Calabrese: So, what are some of the best ways to make money through speaking?
Steve Lowell: Sure, you know, speaking to Sal is the way I do it now. That’s the way I usually invite people and encourage people to go because you can go and speak for a fee, but you’re competing against celebrity-status individuals who command tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars per speech. And it’s difficult to break into that area. There are high barriers of entry, but anybody can learn to get in front of an audience, whether it’s live or virtual, and sell their products and services and make far more in a single presentation than they could ever make being paid by an association or a corporation. So, this is the way my wife and I do it. And you can, and I say you as a general you, pretty much anybody who puts a little bit of effort and thought into it can get in front of an audience and sell their products and services and generate enormous amounts of business through speaking if they know how to do it well. And that’s what we focus on, is teaching people how to do that. So that’s really the best way to make money speaking. [5:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so, why would so many people struggle to monetize when they speak? What’s holding them back?
Steve Lowell: And speak. Yeah, sure, thanks. And what’s holding them back, generally what I see is they simply don’t know how to do it. And it took me decades to figure this out, Nancy, because what I would do is I would get in front of an audience and my mindset was if I can give them tremendous value, if I can show them how awesome I am, if I can teach them something they can really use, if they walk away with crazy, unrealistic, unexpected value, then they’re going to want to hire me. And I was dead wrong about that. The reason why so many people struggle is because we’re under this misconception that when we get in front of an audience, our job is to solve their problem. That’s what I was doing. I was giving them everything that I thought they needed to know to go and solve their problem and wonder why they wouldn’t hire me because they were walking away either thinking they had everything they needed, or they were confused. And you know, a confused audience or a confused prospect never buys, never says yes. So, I had to learn that what people are looking for from a speaker is not a solution. What they’re looking for is clarity. And if we can give our audiences clarity around their problem and why the problem exists, then they’re more likely to come to us for help. So that is the biggest challenge that I see for aspiring speakers to sell their products and services from the stage. Even experienced speakers make this mistake. [6:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, I think what I’m hearing you say is you want to approach it as a thought leader, sharing information that could help them. Am I taking that the right way?
Steve Lowell: Yeah, you’re in the right direction for sure. And I’ll add to that to round it off. And that is, yes, you’re giving them information, but the information that we want to give is: this is the outcome we’re looking for. What we are looking for is to have the audience think like this. We want the audience to think: “Oh, now I understand why I have this problem. I’ve never thought of it like that before”. That’s our desired outcome. And so, we must craft our presentation very tactically and strategically to bring the audience to that particular outcome. Because what we tend to do is we tend to try and get our audience to an outcome where they think: “Okay, now I can solve my problem. This was awesome. This lady is amazing. Now I can go and solve my problem”. And if we get that outcome, then they’re never going to hire us. [7:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. How do you draw that out of your customers?
Steve Lowell: So, there are, okay, let me make sure I understand the question. Can you paraphrase the question for me?
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, let’s say I’m engaging your services and you’re going to help me write what I need to say. How are you going to get that from me?
Steve Lowell: Through enormous amounts of questioning and digging. When a customer or a client comes to me and asks me to help them do that, this is a major engagement. And what we do is we dig into your business deeper than you ever have. And so, a couple of things occur there. Number one is I encourage you and kind of guide you to disconnect from that which you already believe to be true. Because the first thing we need to do is detach from, from you know, we get so attached to our content and so attached to our message. We need to detach from that and look at it objectively because there’s gold in there that we often don’t see because we get too attached to what we’ve created. So that’s number one. We need to detach for a while from what we’ve created and look at it objectively. Then we go deep, deep, and instead of identifying the problem that you solve, what we need to do is identify what is causing that problem for your audience, for your market. Then we dig deep into those causes. And so instead of going to an audience and saying: “Here’s the solution to your problem”, we would go to the audience who says: “Here is why the problem exists and why you need me”. And so that’s the work. And sometimes it’s challenging, you know, Nancy, because, you know, I don’t have to tell this, you know this, we get attached to our stuff and we need to detach from it and look at it objectively. And sometimes what I’ll even do is I’ll challenge people to do this, and I did this, and I still do this, I try and disprove everything I know to be true. And the purpose is not to disprove it, but the purpose is to go through the exercise of trying to disprove it, because the things we learn, the perspectives that we uncover, and the wisdom that we find when we do that exercise can really be life-changing to our message. [10:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, you know, before we jumped on, you and I had a conversation about introverts. You’re an introvert. So am I. Actors are introverts. Why do they make great public speakers?
Steve Lowell: Not all of them do. No, not all of them do. But here’s my belief, you’re right, I’m an introvert. And if people are listening to this podcast, they’re not going to see introvert or hear introvert in my voice. If they see me on a stage or on a screen, they’re not going to see me introverted. But if they see me sitting at a social event, if they see me sitting at a restaurant, they’re going to see an introvert. And I think for me, I can only speak for myself on this, but I believe this is true for others as well. And that is, you know, as I was mentioning to you before the call when I’m on the stage or even right now in my studio speaking to you, this is my space. And I’m on a stage in front of, you know, maybe a thousand or 2000 people. It’s still my stage. It’s my place. And I’m here by myself. There just happens to be a whole bunch of people watching and listening. And I will engage the audience. I’m very good at engaging and getting them in conversation and activities and all those things, but it’s still my space. And if I’m in public, at a restaurant, at a networking event, at a chamber of commerce, or wherever we go. It’s not that I’m uncomfortable, but it’s not my space. And so, I don’t feel as free to be as self-expressive in those places. And so, I’d much rather be in front of an audience where I’m comfortable than at a party of 10 or 12 where I am less comfortable. [11:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, interesting. So, what are some of the myths that entrepreneurs believe that prevent them from making money when they speak?
Steve Lowell: Yeah, the biggest one is, and I really like that question because not that many people ask that question. I think the biggest myth is like the one that I fell victim to, Nancy. And the myth was, if I give them crazy, ridiculous value, if I teach them a whole bunch of great, amazing things, they’re going to love me and they’re going to want to buy from me. And I think here’s the extension of that myth is, you know the adage, Nancy, that says people buy from those they know, like, and trust. You’ve heard this, I’m sure.
Nancy Calabrese: Yes.
Steve Lowell: And this is a known truth in the world of sales. But the issue is I just don’t believe that it’s true. I don’t believe it’s complete. And the reason is, and I think it’s a myth, and the reason is this, there’s a lot of people in my life that I know, there’s a lot of people that I know and like, and there’s a lot of people that I know, like, and trust, and do services, offer services that are within my area of requirement, but I would never hire them for different reasons. [12:42]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Steve Lowell: Here’s what I believe must be in place before no like and trust. Number one is I believe the audience needs to feel like they are understood. They need to feel like, you know what, Nancy gets me. Nancy understands me, right? And I know Nancy and I like Nancy and I trust Nancy, but if I don’t think Nancy understands me, then we have an issue. So, I think that’s the first thing we need to address as speakers and as sales professionals in general. [13:10]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Steve Lowell: I get you; I understand you. So that’s number one. And then the next thing that needs to happen is the audience needs to feel like they can help me. You have the cookies, right? And I know people in my life who I know, like, and trust, but I just don’t think they have the skill level that I need for whatever project it is. So, these are two things that need to be in place before the know, like and trust thing ever rears its head. And so that’s one of the reasons I’m answering the question this way is because if I make the mistake that if they know me, I’ll tell them all about my background and my great formulas and my great history and all my great credentials and all that, then they’re going to know me. If they like me, I’ll make them laugh and I’ll be charming and funny. They’ll like me. And if I trust, if they get them to trust me because they like me, then they’re going to buy from me and generally, that’s not enough. [13:59]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, I think, you know, here, we always talk about, it’s about them, not about you. Yeah, and getting to know somebody is through a series of, you know, thoughtful questions and zoning in to, and listening to what they say. Very much so. Is there a story in your background that the audience might find interesting?
Steve Lowell: No, there are none. Now, I’m kidding. So, here’s one that I like to open up with. When I speak, I always open with this story and it’s obvious, it’s more visual, but I’m going to present it anyway. And I’ll ask you and your audience just to answer this question for yourself. If I said, are you or is somebody you know in the market for a tennis instructor? Then what I’ll do, and I do this everywhere, is I have, put up your hand if you or somebody you know is in the market for a tennis instructor. Now, generally how many hands did you think would go up? In an audience of 100 people, how many hands would go up, would you guess? [15:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Less than 10. Yup.
Steve Lowell: Yeah, like usually zero and maybe one. And I’ve done this with audiences all over the world and it’s always the same. So, then I tell the audience this, I say, okay, let’s say there are 100 people in the room, I’m going to guess that at least 30 of you, probably more, but at least 30 are either in the market for a tennis instructor right now, or you know somebody who is. And Nancy, I’m going to guess that if you’re not in the market for a tennis instructor, I’m going to guess that you know somebody who is. And so then of course the audience is thinking, well, how are you going to prove that? And so, I tell them about this guy named Brian and Brian came to me about 18 years ago and he says, he said: “Steve, I’m going to all the networking events, I’m meeting all the people, I’m shaking all the hands, I’m making all the phone calls”. He said: “I’m just not getting the business that I need”. And I said: “Well, Brian, what do you do?” He said: “I’m a tennis instructor”. [15:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Steve Lowell: And we see what the market is for tennis instructors. So, we taught Brian this fundamental principle, and the principle is this, every single time you speak in front of an audience, whether it’s an audience of one or an audience of a thousand, you are positioning yourself in one of two ways. There are only two and you’re only positioning yourself as one. And you’re either positioning yourself as somebody they need or somebody they don’t. And so, when Brian says: “I’m a tennis instructor”, he’s clearly positioning himself as somebody they don’t need. [16:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Steve Lowell: So, if you saw Brian today and you said, Brian, what do you do? He would say something like this. He would say, well, you know how sometimes kids get so much energy, they get so excited and they’re bouncing off the walls and they’re running around and making all kinds of noise. And he said, you know, the parents get so frustrated because they have no idea what to do with these kids. He’d say, well, what I do is I take kids of any age, I bring them to a tennis court. I absolutely exhaust them, and I hand them back to their parents. And then I asked the audience again, now put up your hand if you just might know somebody who just might be in the market for a tennis instructor. And suddenly, every hand in the place goes up and it goes up every single time. So, the reason that story is important is that, especially for my business as a speaker in this business, it demonstrates to the audience how just speaking differently can change the entire outcome from I’m not interested to tell me more, right? [17:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow.
Steve Lowell: And so that’s one of my favorite stories that I use because it demonstrates what I do so well, right? It demonstrates and the entire audience can see it. And I’ve had people come to me right after and say, I want a story like Brian. And of course, they hired me to do that. So, the reason I’m saying that is because for every person who’s listening to this message, what we need to understand is that the principle is the same. Every time we open our mouths about ourselves or our business, we are positioning ourselves as either somebody they need or somebody they don’t. And so, my job is to help people position themselves as somebody the audience needs. [18:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Love it. Last question? What is the takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Steve Lowell: You know, I think that would probably be the biggest takeaway for this. And I mean, there are many that I could choose, but the one that seems to have the most impact is that understanding. The understanding is that if I’m in front of any audience or any prospect if I’m doing the speaking, I’m positioning myself as either someone they need or someone they don’t. So, I darn well better know how to position myself as somebody they need. And that goes back to what you said, Nancy, about, you know what? It’s not even about me. It’s about the customer. It’s about the audience. It’s about the prospect. [18:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. How can my people find you?
Steve Lowell: The best way to find me is at my website: stevelowell.com. Everything is there.
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. What a fascinating discussion. And I do hope that you’ll take time in the future to join me again and peel away, you know, this, for me, it’s very scary to speak in front of audiences, and people are baffled because I’m so natural, I guess, on the phone. So, I think there’s some work that needs to be done and I want you to come back and help me. Is that okay?
Steve Lowell: Anytime, anytime.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, everyone, thank you, Steve, for spending some time with us and making it a great sales day. [19:34]
by Nancy Calabrese | Sep 26, 2023 | Podcast
About Rachel Cossar: Rachel Cossar is a leader in the field of nonverbal communication and leadership presence facilitation. As a former nationally ranked athlete and professional ballet dancer, Rachel has a knack of translating unique skills into relatable business skills and competencies. Virtual Sapiens comes as an evolution of Rachel’s combined work as founder of Choreography for Business, a nonverbal communication consulting firm as well as a faculty member with Mobius Executive Leadership and as a leadership presence facilitator with Ariel Group. Rachel has worked with leaders from GE, BCG, Pfizer, Accenture, McKinsey, HBS and more. With the increased dependency of video events as a way to connect and drive impact across organizations, Rachel and her team at Virtual Sapiens are excited to open up a world of access when it comes to one of the most human, and most important skills in business – communication. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Rachel.
In this episode, Nancy and Rachel discuss the following:
- Importance of self-reinvention.
- Mistakes that sellers make when they’re on video.
- The significance of video call backgrounds.
- The role of the background in the world of remote jobs.
- Non-verbal cues and behaviors that need to be mastered to be an effective communicator.
- Hand gesture etiquette on remote meetings.
- The hacks with lens and seat cushion and their role in making an impression.
- Rachel’s way to success.
Key Takeaways:
- There are transitions and changes around us all the time, whether we realize it or not.
- In the sales process, it’s more than making the sale, it’s about building the relationship and the rapport.
- The background speaks volumes about choices you’ve made or not made when you’ve decided to show up on video with the other person.
- Using hand gestures is a wonderful tool to create a sense of openness, warmth, of invitation.
- The importance of developing a new sense of muscle memory around the way we express ourselves on a screen.
“You know, I think a lot of us felt that or experienced that at some point during the pandemic and there tends to be, of course, fear around change and transition, but sometimes I find people turn to wherever they’re going next and forget where they came from.And so, in my experience, the process of reinventing myself, which I’ve done so many times, is always on the shoulders of these past identities I’ve had. And I think that concept is really fascinating and powerful.” – RACHEL
“Some of the top cues and behaviors that need to be mastered to be an effective communicator are posture, where you’re looking, how you use your eyes when you’re speaking, and as a listener. The way you use your hands and facial expressions. Those would be some of the top four non-verbal categories to be aware of. And on video, of course, all of them are very present. The one thing I’ll say as a caveat on video is the way you frame yourself is critical because if you are going to have your lens positioned such that we can only see the very top of your head, or we can’t see your face because you’re looking at a different screen and your lens is somewhere else like those are things that are just from the get-go, very detrimental to your presence because you’ve ruined the human connection that we can take advantage of on video.” – RACHEL
“Using hand gestures is a wonderful tool to create a sense of openness, warmth, of invitation. It helps people trust you more because they know that you are present with them, that you’re not fiddling around with some unseen phone or tablet or… animal or whatever, right? People like to see open-palm hand gestures. It’s very soothing. It’s very reassuring. So that’s number one. On the other end of the spectrum though, some people over-rely on hand gestures to communicate. And when the hand gestures are kind of waving around nonsensically and there’s not an intentional connection between the way hand gestures are being used and the words that are being communicated, hand gestures, in that case, can be distracting. So yeah, I mean, it’s all about, and then there’s like different types of when you’re touching your face with your hands, that can signal stress and anxiety and discomfort. And so, the way, what it really comes down to is developing a hand gesture vocabulary that supports the message you’re trying to send.” – RACHEL
Connect with Rachel Cossar:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today, and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Rachel Cossar, the CEO and co-founder of Virtual Sapiens, a machine learning SaaS platform that helps client-facing professionals develop and amplify their communication skills and presence in a virtual world. As a former professional ballet dancer and gymnast with unparalleled expertise in nonverbal communication and live performance, Rachel has a knack for translating unique skills into relatable business skills and competencies. Her thought leadership has been featured on the TEDx Northeastern stage, Harvard Business Review and the Boston Globe to name a few. And she’s worked with leaders such as G.E.M. Pfizer. Welcome to the show, Rachel. This is gonna be a great discussion. [1:18]
Rachel: Thank you, Nancy, for having me.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, my goodness. So, you talk a lot about reinvention. Why is that so important for all of us?
Rachel: Reinvention, it’s interesting. I find transitions and changes around us all the time, whether we realize it or not, but I also find that everyone is at some point in their lives, or maybe multiple times in their lives is going to have to face a pretty big transition. You know, I think a lot of us felt that or experienced that at some point during the pandemic and there tends to be, of course, fear around change and transition, but sometimes I find people turn to wherever they’re going next and forget where they came from. And so, in my experience, the process of reinventing myself, which I’ve done so many times, is always on the shoulders of these past identities I’ve had. And I think that concept is really fascinating and powerful. [2:20]
Nancy Calabrese: So, you basically are taking your prior experiences into your new experience when you reinvent yourself. Is that what you’re saying?
Rachel: Right.
Nancy Calabrese: Cool. So, you’re all about virtual selling and presentation, which is my world, by the way. And you talk about mistakes that sellers make when they’re on video, especially when it comes to their… What do you mean by that?
Rachel: Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting because we’ve video was really activated during the pandemic. And during the pandemic, it was just about showing up, and having your video turned on was a bonus, right? Because few of us had much choice in where we were connecting from because there were so few choices we had at that time. And now that we’re evolving out of the pandemic, and video continues to be a primary channel of connection with our prospects and clients, there’s a big gap I find in the education and awareness around some of the messages we may be sending when we show up on video. Specifically, if you think about these squares of real estate we have on video, they accentuate some of the most expressive parts of ourselves, our faces, our upper bodies, our shoulders, the way we move our heads, our hand gestures if we’re framed properly and you can see those. All those components of visual communication can send a very powerful message of preparedness and respect and perceive trustworthiness and authority, or they can really undermine those things, right? And we both know that in the selling or sales relationship, you know, it’s more than making… the sale, it’s about building the relationship and the rapport. And a lot of that can be made or not over video. [4:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, I’m often surprised at the backgrounds some people use or, you know, or in when they do video. How does that impact, you know, a potential customer?
Rachel: Definitely. The background speaks volumes about choices you’ve made or not made when you’ve decided to show up on video with this other person, right? And I think it’s very easy to become… to almost forget… what, or to get used to the background you have, right? And the background you have becomes very normal and you don’t pick up on little details that someone who’s seeing the background for the first time will be like, oh, like what is that thing there in the corner? And oh, that ceiling fan is just going round and round. And every time I think it’s going to biff them in the head, or these little distractions of an unintentional background can require mental energy from your audience, that would be better on your message. [5:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, distractions are exactly, you’re right. Well, you know, in my space, you’re not seeing this, but I have a huge picture of Paul McCartney. He’s, my idol. And it is, he is an icebreaker though, I must say, for a lot of people. And I’m shocked some people don’t even know who it is. So, well, go figure. Okay, you talk about nonverbal cues and behaviors that need to be mastered to be an effective communicator. What are some of the top ones? [6:12]
Rachel: Definitely. Some of the top ones are posture, where you’re looking, how you use your eyes when you’re speaking, and as a listener. The way you use your hands and facial expressions. Those would be some of the top four non-verbal categories to be aware of. And on video, of course, all of them are very present. The one thing I’ll say as a caveat on video is the way you frame yourself is critical because if you are going to have your lens positioned such that we can only see the very top of your head, or we can’t see your face because you’re looking at a different screen and your lens is somewhere else like those are things that are just from the get-go, very detrimental to your presence because you’ve ruined the human connection that we can take advantage of on video. [7:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, talk more about hand gestures though. What do you mean by that? Because I talk with my hands.
Rachel: Yeah, definitely. Hand gestures are a fascinating category of non-verbal because it’s quite rich. And yes, using hand gestures is a wonderful tool to create a sense of openness, warmth, of invitation. It helps people trust you more because they know that you are present with them, that you’re not fiddling around with some unseen phone or tablet or… animal or whatever, right? People like to see open-palm hand gestures. It’s very soothing. It’s very reassuring. So that’s number one. On the other end of the spectrum though, some people over-rely on hand gestures to communicate. And when the hand gestures are kind of waving around nonsensically and there’s not an intentional connection between the way hand gestures are being used and the words that are being communicated, hand gestures, in that case, can be distracting. [8:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Rachel: So yeah, I mean, it’s all about, and then there’s like different types of when you’re touching your face with your hands, that can signal stress and anxiety and discomfort. And so, the way, what it really comes down to is developing a hand gesture vocabulary that supports the message you’re trying to send.
Nancy Calabrese: Right, yeah. Now, when we first got into COVID, I met with this woman who used to do broadcasting. One of the tricks that, tips she gave me was to buy a seat cushion to raise myself up. So, I’m looking square in the camera. Is that something that you recommend as well?
Rachel: Yes, whether it’s a seat cushion or propping, sometimes people need to prop their lens up a little bit higher so that they’re not looking down on the camera. The lens is like the other person or it’s like your audience’s eyes, right? It’s their vantage point. If you investigate the lens, you’re looking directly into their faces. And so, the way you orient around the lens is important. And that the level of the lens, making it easy for you to investigate the lens when you’re speaking increases your authority. Little hacks like that really go a long way. [9:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, and you know, it’s interesting what she taught me was I wasn’t looking at the camera. I was looking at her on Zoom. And so, I was looking down. So, I’m glad that she pointed that out to me. Okay, AI is big news nowadays. So how does that come into the equation with what you do?
Rachel: AI is central to what we do at Virtual Sapiens. So, all those nonverbal cues that I just mentioned, we’ve trained our AI to recognize. And so, when you’re interacting with any of our solutions, our AI will analyze your video feed and then provide you with personalized feedback on how you were showing up throughout that video recording or video meeting and provide you with suggestions on how you might level up your presence essentially. [10:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I’m just curious. So, I know your background is ballerina and gymnast. How did you wind up in this role and this, you know, being the owner of this company?
Rachel: Yes, through a series of reinventions, full circle back to the beginning of the conversation. But it does sound like a drastic leap, but when you follow the thread, it makes sense. I retired from Boston Ballet after dancing with the company for 10 years in 2016 and started working at Harvard in their fundraising department, which is heavy on relationships. And I noticed that there was a general lack of awareness when it came to the way people were showing up physically, their body language, their presence. And so, because of this like dancer spider-sense, right, as a dancer, you’re performing, and you only use your body to communicate. There are no words. And so I had this like nonverbal communication sensibility already and so I started studying the field and the different applications of it in restaurants, with sales teams, leaders, et cetera, started consulting in that space in my own right, but then also as a facilitator with other companies. And then when the pandemic happened, I was just like, if we’re going to be on video, we can use technology to our advantage here. [11:43]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow. And so, going back to AI, what do we need to be wary of when we use AI?
Rachel: In this application, right, so AI as a coach, and when the AI is analyzing your behaviors, whether they’re verbal, nonverbal, or vocal, the thing to really pay attention to is, where is the science behind the insights that are being shared? Have these metrics and insights, are they backed up by the most recent science and peer-reviewed research? Um, that’s one thing I would say is important to just confirm because it’s easy like information’s everywhere these days. And so, what you might see, for example, is, oh, this, um, AI coach over here will tell me how many times I’ve smiled. And it’s like, so what? Like, you know, like how is there, is there a study somewhere that says if you smile 15 times in a one-hour meeting that somehow has. You know, it’s like, it can’t be reduced to such a specific arbitrary number. Right? So, at Virtual Sapiens, we look at facial expression variation or expressivity, because we know when people engage with their facial muscles, in whatever way, it could be a surprise, shock, anger, frustration, happiness, or sadness. It depends on the context, which emotions make sense. So, we’re not going to tell you how to… how to feel or what to express, but we will tell you if you’re coming across as completely monotonous with your expressions. [13:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, funny, something I learned as well. When I listen to people over, say, a Zoom environment, my mouth droops. And so, I have to make a concerted effort to kind of keep my mouth from drooping. I was not aware of that.
Rachel: Right, right. I mean, that’s a perfect example of our habits on screens are a little, when it comes to the way we engage with a screen, we tend to be more passive, right? When we’re watching a movie, we just sit there and watch it. But now we’re having these human interactions that are alive with other human beings. And so, we must almost develop a new sense of muscle memory around the way we express ourselves on a screen. [14:09]
Nancy Calabrese: This is fascinating stuff. Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Rachel: I mean, let’s see, I think that video, when used well, both in the sense of when the human who’s on video is skilled and aware and can communicate effectively and when the video is the proper channel to use is one of the most powerful ways that as humans we can connect.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. And, you know, in wrapping up the show, what is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Rachel: I would say for all the audience members, the next time you are on a video call, which I would assume is soon, pay attention to not only some of the ways you are showing up, right? But how other people are showing up and whether you’re able to sense that they’ve had some kind of training or practice or put some real effort into the way they’re showing up as communicators. Or if they’re kind of… just turning the camera on to show that there’s a human on the other side. [15:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, one final thought before we wrap this up. Matching and mirroring is so important. What do you have to say about that?
Rachel: Yes, fascinating. So, one of our advisors who is a behavioral scientist, did her whole thesis on mirroring and mimicry. She started her thesis before the pandemic and then had to finish it during the pandemic and found that over the video, that same concept of a conversation when there’s synchrony in the conversation, people will mirror one another’s behaviors. That kind of behavioral concept is very present on video, which is fascinating because you would think that maybe the channel’s not strong enough but turns out that it is. [16:16]
Nancy Calabrese: I think it’s crucial in the sales process to use your nonverbal cues, as you’ve mentioned, and really listen in, and by listening in, like very often when I’m deep in listening, I kind of lean forward to make sure I’m getting everything. At the end of the day, I love what you do. I told you; you have such an interesting story. How can my audience find you?
Rachel: I’m most easily found on LinkedIn. So just Rachel Cossar on LinkedIn. Would love to connect with anyone who’s interested in speaking further. And our tools, anyone can try our assessment or Sidekick Coach for free on our website. So that’s virtualsapiens.co, C-O. [17:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, very good. And everyone, I really recommend you go to Rachel’s website and listen to her TEDx speech. It was fabulous. And it kept my attention for the whole time. It was great. So, Rachel, thanks for being here. I enjoyed speaking with you. I hope that we can continue this down the road and everyone has a great sales day.
Rachel: Thank you. [17:39]
