by Nancy Calabrese | Jan 25, 2024 | Podcast
About Joe Pallo: Joe Pallo is the Founder of Sell Nothing, a consulting company where he works with C.E.O.s, E.V.P. s, top salespeople, and sales leaders who want to grow their business by establishing emotional relationships with their clients and team members. Drawing from 35+ years of commission sales and 30,000+ sales calls, Joe Pallo is a top sales producer who first earned his hard knocks and big rewards with door-to-door selling. He’s developed proven systems and processes through which hundreds of top producers double or triple their business without investing additional time. Clients include non-profit organizations, defense contractors, financial advisors, the top mortgage broker in the United States, and an Olympic champion and flag bearer. As a coach, he focuses on understanding and implementing basic sales principles. He adds a layer of accountability while training and modeling relationship-building skills. Joe is also a creator of the E.A.R.N.I.N.G Sales System and a bestselling author of How To Sell Nothing. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Joe.
In this episode, Nancy and Joe discuss the following:
- Why the word “selling” is such a scary word for so many people
- Sell Nothing: The story under the company name
- Peculiarities of the E.A.R.N.I.N.G Sales System
- Four uncommon ways to ask for quality referrals without being a jerk
- The importance of script in sales
Key Takeaways:
- We’ve all been on the receiving end of being part of a bad sales presentation or a bad sales call.
- Referrals are given to confident people.
- Get a silver bullet on your existing referrals, freshen them up, and then leave a message in a voicemail.
- E.A.R.N.I.N.G Sales System is the essence of selling Nothing.
- Listening and then repeating back what they said – that’s the talking you should do: ask questions and repeat back.
“ It seems like we all know there are two sales that need to happen to get to the next step, or two buckets that need to be filled: the logical sale or the logical bucket, and the emotional sale or the emotional bucket. Both are important, but we all know the emotional bucket needs to happen first; that makes people decide. The logical bucket confirms the sale, and the emotional bucket makes it happen. “Sell Nothing,” the book, was written with the concept that we want our clients, my clients, to tell me what they want and why they want it. That’s the emotional sale. My role as the salesperson is to fill that logical bucket with words because I know all the logic and numbers, and I have a marketing department behind me. I’m good at making that logical sale. The emotional bucket is filled up with their words. Emotions are weird things—they’re fickle and change. They don’t make sense. We have to get them talking about what they want and why they want it. The art of selling Nothing is selling what people want and why they want it” – J.O.E.
“But that’s the value of the silver bullet. Yeah, it gets them calling back in, and it will work. It’s incredibly effective, but you must take your time and get them immediately. Right? I’ll also say something else that may help your listeners. This works well when you get a referral, but it also works well with all the referrals you’ve gotten for the past three or six months. What’s to stop you from returning to the referral and saying, “Hey, a while back, you referred me to so and so. I tried catching them, but what type of decision-maker is he? A numbers guy, is he a talker, a driver?” Right? Get a silver bullet on your existing referrals, freshen them up, yeah, and then you leave it on a message on a voicemail.” – J.O.E.
“Um, I would say it’s using scripts when you’re selling, having a talk, having scripts. Yeah, if I’m speaking in a group and I’m going to talk about scripts, I’ll always say, “Hey, just curious if there are any idiots. Can you raise your hand?” And a couple of people do because they’re idiots. But I kind of joke that the reason I ask is that I’m going to talk about using scripts, and many times, I hear people saying, “I can’t use a script because I’ll sound robotic.” And here’s my thinking on that, which people may disagree with. But we work hard to get the name; they get the phone number. Then, if we get the phone number, we must get through to the secretary. That’s a lot of work. Or we try to get the cell number; we don’t have to get him on the phone. That’s a lot of work to talk to a prospect. Right? Well, let themselves be passive and sound robotic on a live call. Right? And if that’s the case, that person may be in the wrong job. Now, if you think about it, and here’s the thing, you didn’t sound robotic when I was doing my role-play and calling Aaron. You heard me insert a chuckle. That’s intentional because that makes me focused and present on the call. You cannot be passive and insert a chuckle, you know? I’ll repeat, it says when I talk to him, I said, “Aaron, it’s Joe Pallo. I don’t want you racking your brain trying to figure out who I am. We haven’t met yet, right?” I’m chuckling right there; he hears it. Yeah, because if you say the same thing consistently, you’ll get consistent results.” – J.O.E.
Connect with Joe Pallo:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation! Today we’re speaking with Joe Pallo, Founder of Sell Nothing, a company where he trains CEOs, EVPs, and top sales professionals to build emotional relationships with clients and team members. Joe’s unique approach to sales called the Emotional Sale, focuses on leveraging emotions for sales success. Drawing from his 30,000+ personal sales calls and diverse clientele, Joe has helped hundreds of individuals and teams double their productivity. Besides sales consulting and coaching, his expertise extends to keynote speaking, sales presentations, and a Creator of the E.A.R.N.I.N.G Sales System™. And I believe a relatively newer program called Silver Bullet. Welcome to the show Joe! This is going to be a fun discussion! [1:20]
Joe Pallo: Hey Nancy, looking forward to it, and thank you for having me!
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, I’m so excited! So, you know, why is the word “selling” such a scary word for so many people?
Joe Pallo: I think it’s probably because we’ve all been on the receiving end of being part of a bad sales presentation or a bad sales call. I think we’ve all seen it, and it just says that ickiness that’s out there in sales. But I don’t believe it’s needed itself; I believe that’s the right way to sell.
Nancy Calabrese: No, I mean, I just can’t get enough of selling. So, the next question I had is, how do you keep track of 30,000 personal sales calls?
Joe Pallo: Well, the majority of those, I spent six summers—that’s how I paid my way through college—selling books door-to-door. OK, so door-to-door sales, you’re going to get that number up pretty high; you’re going to learn how to sell, or you’re going to starve one way or the other. [2:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Your company name is very clever, Sell Nothing. What prompted you to name it that?
Joe Pallo: Well, I think it’s with the understanding of all my experience in sales. It seems like we all know there are two sales that need to happen to get to the next step, or two buckets that need to be filled: the logical sale or the logical bucket, and the emotional sale or the emotional bucket. Both are important, but we all know the emotional bucket needs to happen first; that makes people decide. The logical bucket confirms the sale, and the emotional bucket makes it happen. “Sell Nothing,” the book, was written with the concept that we want our clients, my clients, to tell me what they want and why they want it. That’s the emotional sale. My role as the salesperson is to fill up that logical bucket with words because I know all the logic and numbers, and I have a marketing department behind me. I’m really good at making that logical sale. The emotional bucket is filled up with their words. Emotions are weird things—they’re fickle and change, they don’t make sense. We have to get them talking, not only about what they want but why they want it. The art of selling nothing is selling what people want and why they want it. [3:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, it really is all about them. So, first, you have to kind of uncover what it is they need and what issues they’re having, determining if we can solve their problems. Tell us a little bit about the E.A.R.N.I.N.G system that you created.
Joe Pallo: Having a sales plan is like having a battle plan. It looks really good. But when the battle starts or the sales meeting starts, take the plan and check it out the window; it doesn’t work. Okay, so “E.A.R.N.I.N.G” is an acronym, and each letter stands for part. Ideally, we want to go through it in the cycle, but it doesn’t have to be; it just keeps us on track. Okay, it’s just getting them. The “E” stands for, I just need to evaluate your current reality. I need to ask questions, my data quality. If I’m going to make an apples-to-apples comparison, I need to ask enough questions and what type of apples they have. I’ll ask apples, oranges; I still need to start out with that point. So, that’s the “E.” “A” stands for what are the advantages, what do they like about their current vendor. And I get a lot of times; I get people pushing back, saying, “Joe, I don’t want to ask that question. I’m talking them into staying with who they want to be with.” Right? I like asking that question because one, I get different results because I do things differently; that differentiates me. Two, me asking what they like about their current vendor screams confidence. Sales are given to confident people. But the biggest reason, they’re literally telling me their hot buttons. When I say, “What do you like about your current vendor?” They say, “I like his communication,” or “I like this.” Back in my mind, I’m thinking, “I’ve got to close on that in another five minutes, or five weeks, or five months, and I’m not going to know unless they tell me.” So, that’s the “A.” The “R” is revise—what do they want to change? That’s the major reason why they’re going to go forward. But I don’t lead off with that. Okay, the current reality, and then ask what they like about it. Then I must ask what they want to change. The “N” you can say no. Who else needs to be involved in the sales, right? Sometimes you can back out, sometimes you can’t. But I want to know who are the other decision-makers, right? That’s E.R.N.I. This is an important one. You need one step that you can apply tomorrow. I simply interpret back what you just said. Just say, “Hey, just for clarity, I’m going to take two minutes and just rattle off what they have. It does a lot of things because I start hearing things like what Paul—you said it better than I did. Uh, that’s why I’m on their side of the table. I have not even started selling because the biggest complaint with sales is no one listens to me. I’m just repeating back what they just said. The second “N” is nothing. What if nothing changes because I need that to give a sense of urgency. And I’ll generally ask, “Well, what else?” They’ll get a fluffy answer. So, I ask, “Well, what if nothing changes? Well, tell me more about that.” I’ll get them talking about that. And then the “G” is the gain, the pay value. I have not even started talking about my product or service yet. That’s the essence of selling nothing. We go through this process on every sales call. If it’s a longer selling second, we just repeat it. [6:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, well, I think you’re right. Repeating what you think you heard not only is it telling the prospect that you’re listening, but you may uncover some additional information when you do that. Yeah, very much so. Okay, let’s talk about four uncommon ways to ask for quality referrals without being a jerk.
Joe Pallo: Well, the first part is that we must be confident when we’re asking. I think most people are passive when they’re asking for referrals. They might say something like, “I kind of maybe like to have a referral if it’s not too much trouble. Oh, never mind. Here’s a business card.” Referrals are given to confident people. We need to have a confident ask. A better way of saying it is, when we’re on a sales call, I’ll ask my clients, “How do you want to be perceived?” Now, here, where it’s like, “I’m confident, upbeat, professional, educated, caring, trustworthy.” Okay, you got a good picture of who that person is. They say, “Yeah, that’s the person we’re asking for referrals.” What happens in sales is we go out and we give that confident, upbeat, professional presentation. But when it comes to referrals, we downshift. We’re passive when we ask for referrals. The same person who’s selling should be the same person asking for referrals. It’s a big piece. Also, when I’m asking for a referral, some people don’t want to come across the wrong way. If I were talking to you, let’s be hypothetical. You’ve been a client of mine for a couple of years. I would say, “Nancy, can I ask you a question?” You’d say, “Yeah.” I’d say, “I just want to get some feedback. We’ve been working together for a year or two. We’ve taken care of this problem, helped you out here, took care of that. What are some things you liked about working with me or my team?” I literally ask for feedback on what you liked about working with me or my team. I’ll say, “What else?” And then I just simply pivot, saying, “Nancy, who are two people who would appreciate those things?” [8:40]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it.
Joe Pallo: It’s my simplified referral ask, but they just told me why they should give me referrals and gave me a compliment. I’m in a great spot to ask for referrals. Yeah, yep. The other piece I’ll do, and I think this is really relevant nowadays when it comes to referrals. I think people are too busy, or a name and a number are not enough. Okay, I mean, we’ve all had referrals or maybe business cards have been referred to people who left a message, they’ve never called us back. So, I’ve kind of created a silver bullet, it’s what I call it a silver bullet, it’s to get through all that muck and noise out there and have that referral catch attention and call me back. The definition of a silver bullet is a bit of information that I know that an average Joe on the street doesn’t know. A bit of information that I know that an average Joe on the street doesn’t know, and I want to draft off the referee off of their relationship onto that first voicemail, onto that first phone call or that first meeting. [9:43]
Nancy Calabrese: How do you find that out?
Joe Pallo: Let’s just say if you’ve referred me to Bill Anderson, we’ll just use that name, and I’d say, “Alright, have some generic questions. How long have you known them? How big is his team? Where’s he at?” There’s some stuff that I think we do good, answer question, answer question. I think we do a pretty good job with that. Then I shift gears and say, “Just curious, what type of decision-maker is Bill? Is Bill a numbers guy, a talker, or is he a driver?” Okay, and I watch them in their face like, “I gotta think about him.” Yeah, I want you thinking about that relationship because that’s what I’m drafting off of, right? We see what type of decision-makers you see. Numbers guys, talkers, drivers. And then I’ll hit them with the one I love asking, “Just curious, what do you respect most about him? Love asking that question. I really have to think about it.” Yeah, you do. And what do you think about them? And I’ll usually, generally, I’ll even ask, “What else?” Yeah, so I’m just writing down all these silver bullets. And some examples of the identified silver bullets. Mark referred me to Aaron. Aaron used to work for him, had three people underneath them, now has 50. He’s a great guy, great family guy, progressive thinker. He’s not a meathead. Okay, that’s what the referee gave me about Aaron. Okay, when I called Aaron, I said, “Hey, Aaron, and I’m a script guy. He’s the same.” So, “Hey, Aaron, it’s Joe Pallo. We haven’t met. I don’t want you racking your brain trying to figure out who I am. Mark mentioned your name the other day. You said you’re not a meathead. 612-805-7576.” And I left. That’s it. [11:27]
Nancy Calabrese: That’s it? HAHA
Joe Pallo: 15 min later, Aaron called me back, being a good client, good friend, and he is a meathead. But that’s the value of the silver bullet. Yeah, and it gets them calling back in, and it will work. It’s incredibly effective, but you must take your time and get them right away. I’ll say something else too that may help your listeners. This works well when you get a referral, but it also works well with all the referrals you’ve gotten for the past three months or six months. What’s to stop you from going back to the referral and saying, “Hey, a while back, you referred me too so and so. I tried catching them, but just curious, what type of decision-maker is he? A numbers guy, is he a talker, a driver?” Right? Get a silver bullet on your existing referrals, freshen them up, and then you just leave it on a message on a voicemail. [12:24]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it!
Joe Pallo: One other thing that’s important: when I left that message for Aaron, I put his number in my phone because I want to have that call me back within 15 minutes. A lot of people want to jump in and give their presentation or their pitch right then. I don’t. Yeah, it’s hard to do, but I’ll just say, “Hey Aaron, thanks for calling back. I saw it was you. I wouldn’t take your call. I’m jumping on something else. Can we set up a time for next week?” I’m talking to the person. I could have had the time on my calendar to do that. We’re on the call, but I didn’t, and the reason I don’t is I don’t want to get halfway through my call, and he says, “Hey Joe, I got to jump on a plane,” and I lost all that momentum. Well, that’s one reason. The second reason it gently puts me in control of the call. It’s my show when I’m selling, and it’s your show when you’re selling, but this gently allows me to do that too, right? I’m not just a random thing. We put things out on the calendar, right out there about a week or so because I want them looking, saying, “What’s that? That’s Joe Pallo. That’s the guy who said I’m not been out there for a week,” and thinking about me before we even get to that call. But the biggest reason it allows me to be focused. In sales, I do not want to wing it. I’m going to clear my desk. I probably have a skill set where I could probably run the call, but I don’t want to do that. I want to make sure that I am in control of that space, and this allows me to budget for that. [14:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, but it also gives you time to do more research, correct? I totally am in your court. You know, I never, never take a call and jump right into a sales call. They always try to find time on the calendar and, you know, do my due diligence. But I love your recommendation about the silver bullets, that is awesome. Isn’t there a website that you have?
Joe Pallo: We can go to silverbulletreferrals.com. I’ll put in the chat silverbulletreferrals.com. Okay, download where it walks through that piece. Yeah, there are a couple of other steps on there, and I did, for the time, I didn’t go through all of them, but it’s just a process that is very duplicatable, and we get you in that system. I do not count a referral unless I have a silver bullet attached to it. [14:50]
Nancy Calabrese: What a great notion! You know, on your website, I think we’re not on the first page in bold letters. How do you exceed your most ambitious sales goals without working harder? How do you?
Joe Pallo: Well, you have to sell nothing. I say it’s, it’s until you’re comfortable selling nothing, you really can’t sell anything. And what that means is really what I sell. The whole concept is literally taking the time to have my clients tell me what they want, why they want it, and then I just sell that. Yeah, it’s a heck of a lot simpler. [15:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, tell me something you believe in that many people wouldn’t agree with you on.
Joe Pallo: I would say it’s using scripts when you’re selling, having a talk, having scripts. Yeah, if I’m speaking in a group and I’m going to talk about scripts, I’ll always kind of say, “Hey, just curious if there’s any idiots, can you raise your hand?” And a couple of people do because they’re idiots. But I kind of joke that the reason I ask that is I’m going to talk about using scripts, and a lot of times I hear people saying, “I can’t use a script because I’ll sound robotic.” And here’s my thinking on that, which people may disagree with. But we work hard to get the name, then they get the phone number. Then, if we get the phone number, we must get through the secretary. That’s a lot of work. Or we try to get the cell number, don’t have to get him on the phone. That’s a lot of work to talk to a prospect. Only idiots will let themselves be passive and sound robotic on a live call. And if that’s the case, that person may be in the wrong job. Now, if you think about it, and here’s the thing, you don’t sound robotic when I was kind of doing my role play when I was calling Aaron. You heard me insert a chuckle. [16:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah
Joe Pallo: That’s intentional because that makes me focused and present on the call. You cannot be passive and insert a chuckle, you know? I’ll repeat, it says when I talk to him, I said, “Aaron, it’s Joe Pallo. I don’t want you racking your brain trying to figure out who I am. We haven’t met yet, right?” I’m chuckling right there; he hears it. Yeah, because if you say the same thing consistently, you’re going to get consistent results. [17:06]
Nancy Calabrese: I am such a big fan of scripts, and you know, when I’ve gotten pushback from other people, you know, I remind them, look at the actors and actresses on the big screen. It all starts with the script, right? Because without a script, you would never know it. We work off scripts. But with time, it becomes internalized. You don’t have to use the exact wording; you want to make it your own. So, anybody that does not script risks losing the deal because they’re winging it.
Joe Pallo: I agree 100% because people say, “Joe, I’m not getting referrals.” I said, “Well, give me your pitch. If they say the same thing every time, I’m going to fix it. But if they say something different, heck, I don’t know what’s right, I don’t know what’s working right. But the other thing too, most people in sales are sitting there in the meetings, thinking, ‘What am I going to say next? What am I going to say next?’ That’s all they’re thinking. They’re not listening. If you know what you’re going to say, you can listen. What a huge benefit in sales, actually hearing what your client wants.” [18:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Totally! And you know, when you think about it, so you have your script in your head, and the real work comes when you shut up and you start listening to their issues, their pains. You can empathize with them and really get them to, you know, continue to talk about their pain. That’s success in sales. Hey, believe it or not, we’re up in time, Joe. Didn’t that go by fast?
Joe Pallo: Sure did. Yes.
Nancy Calabrese: Holy cow! Now, what is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Joe Pallo: Um, I would say if they wanted to apply something in sales, take a minute just to repeat back what they just said. It’s incredibly valuable and differentiates yourself from everybody else. Get away from the show up, throw up pitch that everyone does. I personally believe whoever’s talking is buying in a selling situation. If I’m talking more than you are I’m selling you and I’m buying your objections. Listening and then repeating back what they said—that’s the talking you should do, asking questions and repeat back. [19:21]
Nancy Calabrese: I totally agree. Folks, listen to this man; he knows what he’s talking about. Joe, how can my people find you?
Joe Pallo: You go to sellnothing.co, the website. Sell nothing, dot C. Couldn’t afford the ‘m’ as a Bitcoin company bought sellnothing.com, and they want like 15,000 for an ‘M’.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh my God!
Joe Pallo: It’s sellnothing.co, CEO. Okay, we’ll take it. We’ll find you. I’m sure you’re on LinkedIn as well. I’m on LinkedIn, and my book, “How to Sell Nothing: The Logical Way to Make the Emotional Sale,” is also on my website as well. [19:58]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome! All right, first, thank you so much for spending time with us today. You’re fascinating. I love your silver bullet referral approach, and I’m definitely going to look at it myself. And for everyone out there listening, take advantage of Joe’s expertise. Reach out to him, get a copy of that book, and make it an awesome sales day. See you next time. [20:24]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jan 15, 2024 | Podcast
About Ben Albert: Ben Albert is the owner of Balbert Marketing LLC. He found in marketing that he has a unique opportunity to empower business people to reach the RIGHT community, the RIGHT clients, and the RIGHT partners, who share the same beliefs and values as the clients. He is also the curator of The “Real Business Connections Network,” where he hosts five podcasts: “Rochester Business Connections,” “Learn Speak Teach,” “Ben’s Bites,” “Five Minute Fridays,” and “Real Hits.” Ben chats with everyone from executives, entrepreneurs, convicts, behavior scientists, sales trainers, wellness experts, and more. It’s his role to extract the best nibbles of wisdom from these experts so we can compress decades of wisdom into minutes for the listener. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Ben.
In this episode, Nancy and Ben discuss the following:
- The Real Business Connections Network podcasting umbrella
- Benefits of Podcasting: Building genuine connections and Reputation gain
- Importance of human-to-human connections
- Authenticity as a core value of LinkedIn’s algorithm
- Crucial importance of sharing successes, asking for testimonials, and leaving feedback in the business world
- Video Marketing as the fastest trust builder
- Importance of mindset and inner work in sales
Key Takeaways:
- We want to reach the audience where they are rather than where we are.
- It’s better to be different than just a little bit better.
- If someone helps you, leave them an endorsement, a testimonial, and a review.
- The inner work makes you a way better sales representative than any specific tactic ever could.
“Great minds think alike. You understand that in sales, in general, the best way to get a sale is from a referral. Like that’s kind of simple, common sense. And I don’t even like to call them referrals. I like nominations or recommendations. And at the end of the day, when you’re, um, creating content and sharing influence with brilliant people, it leads to reputation gain. It leads to thought leadership, which leads to people talking about you and being impressed with you because you’re adding value to their lives. What do you think that leads to? That leads to recommendations, nominations, and referrals. It’s simple.” – BEN.
“AI and tech are taking over the world in one way. But at the core, humans purchase solutions from other humans. We’re fulfilling products and services for humans, by humans, to help humans. All the tech is just facilitating that process. Really, marketing, adding value, and then making the sales process so simple for you or your team will never go away. The better you are at building those human-to-human connections, and that can be in person, but it can be through social selling. It can be through content marketing or podcasting. The better you are at building those human-to-human connections, the better art you are going to be in business. And the AI can’t replace you because there’s only one you.” – BEN.
“There’s so much going on in video at the core. People say, “I don’t have all the lights and the setup.” But if you have a phone that can take videos, you can share them. And I think the biggest reason it’s hot is that it’s such a trust builder. It shows your face, expressions, style, and personality. So, when someone gets on a call with you when someone does meet you, there’s already a rapport built because they’ve watched you, know you, and listened to you. So I think the reason video is so popular is one, it’s entertaining, but two, in a sales and marketing context, it’s the best way to build easy trust because you’re unveiling the person behind the profile, behind the phone. You’re showing an extra part of yourself.” – BEN.
Connect with Ben Albert:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Ben Albert, the owner of Balbert Marketing, a company that helps businesses save time and make money with proven marketing systems. They offer boutique marketing services that empower industry leaders to grow their brands online, including website design, landing pages, Google services, SEO, and more. Ben is also the curator of the Real Business Connections Network, where he hosts six podcasts, Rochester Business Connections, Learn, Speak, Teach, Ben’s Bites, Five Minute Fridays, Real Hits, and AB Squared C. Now, I believe marketing is one of the keys to any company’s success, so I’m excited when it comes to this topic, Ben. Welcome to the show.
Ben Albert: Nancy, I’m excited to be here with you. It, you have a great podcast. It’s an honor to spend time with you. [1:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Thank you. I know we were scheduled to do it several months ago and I don’t know what happened. We’re finally here. So, the first thing that jumps out to me is six podcasts. We got to go into that. How the heck do you juggle all of them?
Ben Albert: Yeah, I mean, you’re a sales expert. You understand that people have different personalities. They have different learning styles. They like to be taught and presented to the whole shabam in different ways. When I say six podcasts, it’s not like there’s a fishing podcast and then a business podcast and then a music podcast, they’re not all over the place. It’s all centered around the real business connections network. That’s the umbrella. And it’s all about the yin and the yang of business and personal growth. What are the tips, tricks, and tactics, but what is the person you need to be? They show up with the mindset to implement those tips. So, there’s long form, there’s short form, there’s just me giving simple monologues with simple, you know, tips and tricks. Um, then there’s conversation style. There’s a panel style. I want to reach my audience based on their learning style, but everything we do is around business and life, and those are just different segments so we can reach the audience where they are rather than where we are. [2:52]
Nancy Calabrese: All right. That’s really cool. I mean, how did you get involved in the business? What’s your journey?
Ben Albert: Yeah, I mean, I’ll give you the short version because it’s, as you can imagine, it’s one of those, how long do we have questions? But, I was a sales exec for a corporate marketing firm, COVID head, and I got let go. As you can imagine, it was a traumatic time for me and most of us. Um, and I leaned into the things that I knew. I was a Rochester, New York native born and raised. I was a huge podcast advocate. I started a music podcast in 2016. And I was an insatiable, curious learner. Now at the core, um, I, I wanted to go off on my own. I was let go. I didn’t know what to do next. So, I’m like, I’m going to start Balbert marketing. Um, and I’m going to lean into those things that I’m good at. I was able to ultimately with Rochester business connections, my first ever business podcast talk to Rochester, New York business leaders. These Rochester leaders were mentors, they became friends and peers, and let’s be transparent, they were prospects. They were business owners, and I was starting a marketing firm. So, I had a great way to network, introduce my services, make connections, and learn during a pandemic and I just happened to use podcasting to do just that. [4:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, you know, it’s funny you bring that up because I started my podcast right as the pandemic hit, thinking that I had a pivot some way. And I have gained so much information. I’ve interviewed some amazing people, including you, and greatly improved my center of influence. Have you found that to be true?
Ben Albert: Yeah. I mean, great minds think alike. You understand in sales in general, the best way to get a sale is from a referral. Like that’s kind of simple, common sense. And I don’t even like to call them referrals. I like nominations or recommendations. And at the end of the day, when you’re, um, creating content and sharing influence with brilliant people, it leads to reputation gain. It leads to thought leadership which leads to people talking about you, being impressed with you, because you’re adding value to their lives, and what do you think that leads to? That leads to recommendations, it leads to nominations, it leads to referrals. It’s simple. [5:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, I think that’s awesome. So, you know, look, marketing, social selling, content marketing is all over the place. Why are these important channels to get your word out there?
Ben Albert: Yeah, I mean, let’s go to the core and we don’t have to dive deep into AI or tech. I’m not the utmost expert on either of those, but AI and tech are taking over the world in one way. But at the core humans purchase solutions from other humans. We’re fulfilling products and services for humans, by humans to help humans. All the tech is just facilitating that process. So, conversational selling, building a relationship, social selling and putting valuable content out there, adding value well before you ask for a sale. Really marketing, adding value, and then making the sales process so simple for you or your team is never going to go away. The better you are at building those human-to-human connections, and that can be in person, but it can be through social selling. It can be through content marketing, podcasting. The better you are at building those human-to-human connections, the better art you are going to be in business. And the AI can’t replace you because there’s only one you. [6:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, I agree with that. I mean, I often say nobody’s going to replace the human connection ever, ever. Even the millennials, people accuse them of just looking at their phone and texting. No, no, no. But they still have conversations, right? They still have get-togethers. OK, I’m going to ask you a question, because I was on with my marketing rep earlier. And one of the groups that I networked with each week would publish like a newsletter. And it’s an opportunity for us to share each other’s articles on LinkedIn and other social media platforms. She said that could be a problem. And I was really surprised to have heard that. I don’t know if you’ve heard that, that LinkedIn doesn’t favor that. But by doing that, my awareness you know, visibility increased. What are your thoughts on that? [7:58]
Ben Albert: Yeah, I would need to know a little bit more. I’d like to kind of see the case example in front of me. I can tell you with total certainty, that LinkedIn’s algorithm is smart, and it doesn’t love inauthenticity. So, give you a drastic example, you post, and then you have a bunch of programmed robots that like and comment, and they never read what you said, they didn’t read the article. It’s inauthentic and it looks authentic, that’s a no-no. And if you’re in a group supporting each other, if there are 5,000 people in that group, so you post and then all the same people react at the same time, that could trigger the algorithm saying that, ah, there’s something shady going on here. All that said, if it’s a small group of peers that are authentically going on and supporting one another. That’s not really against the terms in regards. You’re just being cheerleaders for what each other does. One thing that I would be mindful of though, is if you’re in sales and they’re in underwater basket weaving or something completely unrelated to sales, it might confuse your audience if you’re spending a lot of time interacting on posts that have nothing to do with what you do. So, it is important. [9:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, that’s real.
Ben Albert: It is important to be aligned with similar industries and similarly valued people.
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. So, what is it about your unique idea that’s different and sets you apart from other marketing agencies?
Ben Albert: Yeah. I mean, here’s the thing. I’m not an anomaly. I’m not the most unique. I’m not the next, you know, I’m not the next Jeff Bezos, maybe we’ll see. You know, we all have our unique fingerprint and it’s better to be even slightly different than the same. We don’t want to be caught in the sea of sameness. I’m a podcaster. I give away hundreds of thousands and 10,000s of hours of free value. I’m giving, I’m making connections and introductions every single day. I’m posting content every single day. So even if my services are very similar or even the same thing as my competitor down the road, my audience can hear my story. My audience can hear my journey, my values, my value of education and growth, my values of family. And so again, I don’t think I’m some anomaly, Nancy. I’m just an ordinary guy figuring it out, but by sharing my journey and by adding value that differentiates me, even if the slightest bit, and at the end of the day, you know, it’s better to be different than just a little bit better. [10:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, no, I think different is the way to go. I’m often reminded if your competition is doing it, you stop and do something different. You want to stand out of the crowd, right?
Ben Albert: Absolutely, 100%.
Nancy Calabrese: So how do you leverage a network for increased influence? What are your recommendations?
Ben Albert: I mean, first and foremost, I think for whatever reason, this is a little existential, but society tells us to dim our light. You know, humility is good, modesty is good, but people are afraid to share their success. They’re afraid to share case studies. They’re afraid to ask for reviews. If you’ve helped someone, if you’ve impacted someone, ask them for that, you know, 30-second commitment to leave you a video testimonial, to leave you a review. And if you start sharing those successes, you immediately are building rapport with the people who haven’t worked with you yet, but they can see what it’s like and do the same for others. If someone helps you leave them an endorsement, leave them a testimonial, leave them a review. I think at the end of the day, business is a giver’s game. And if you can show how much you give and give more than you receive, you’re going to build a network of people who want to support you. And honestly, it just makes business more fun when you get to do that with people. [12:28]
Nancy Calabrese: It makes you feel good when you can help someone else out.
Ben Albert: Yeah, it feels great. Absolutely.
Nancy Calabrese: OK, talk about video marketing. It’s hot. Why is it so hot?
Ben Albert: Yeah. I don’t know all the psychology behind it, but I mean, it’s a, they say a picture speaks a thousand words as video speaks 500,000. There’s so much going on in video at the core. Like people are, they’re like, I don’t have all the lights and the setup. But if you have a phone and it can take videos, you have an opportunity to share videos. And I think the biggest reason why it’s hot is it’s such a trust builder. It shows your face, your expressions, it shows your style, your personality. So, when someone does get on a call with you when someone does meet you, there’s already a rapport built because they’ve watched you, they know you, they’ve listened to you. Um, so I think the reason why video is so popular is one, it’s entertaining, but two. In a sales and marketing context, it’s the best way to build easy trust because you’re unveiling the person behind the profile, behind the phone. You’re showing an extra part of yourself. [13:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Well, it’s funny and it doesn’t even have to be perfect, right? It doesn’t have to be perfect. I mean, I have a story. I was a dog watching a friend’s dog, little a Yorkie, and I was in the middle of a Zoom meeting and the Yorkie jumped up on me, onto the desk. And we had a great discussion. People don’t care.
Ben Albert: No, of course not. Not at all.
Nancy Calabrese: That’s so fun. So, tell me a fun fact about you.
Ben Albert: Oh man, I kind of touched on it. I am a music advocate. It started a music podcast in 2016. I was, I was a huge local music, art, and creative advocate, and you would see me at a music or art poetry event three or four days a week. So, the first entrepreneurial endeavor I ever had was just me on the side starting a podcast and a blog. Cause I wanted to get into places for free, Nancy. And since I became part of the press, I was able to go and interview interesting people like Beyonce’s drummer and go to music festivals and fun events. I never imagined that it would be a big slice of what I got to do as a career long-term, but all of this started from just a random passion project based around music. [15:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, you didn’t interview Paul McCartney by any chance, did you?
Ben Albert: Oh no, he is in a higher class than me, unfortunately. Maybe one day.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, not so. He’s a regular guy. One day I’m going to meet him, you know. That’s my goal in life. Tell me something true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Ben Albert: I’m confident you will. Something true that almost nobody agrees with me on. Oh my God. That’s such a powerful question. I’d like to think most people agree with me on most things. Let me think about this. It doesn’t have to be sales or marketing related. Oh my God. There are so many things. [15:48]
Nancy Calabrese: No, it could be anything.
Ben Albert: This is kind of going to be counterproductive, but, um, cause I’m all about strategy. I’m all about tactics. I’m all about frameworks. I’m all about playbooks. I think that having a good playbook is less important than having a good mindset and having the potential for curiosity and growth. You can have all the strategies and tactics in the world, but if you’re not taking care of your body, you’re not taking care of your mind, you’re not talking, taking care of your health and your family, you’re going to show up and you’re going to say that closing question. You’re going to go through that presentation. You’re going to say a script and you’re going to be completely misaligned. You might have commission breath. You might look like you don’t believe it. [16:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Commission breath? That’s the first I’ve heard. Ha ha ha.
Ben Albert: Commission breath is when someone gives a vibe that they’re just there for the sale and there might not be a conviction. There might not be alignment with the product. They’re just breathing out sales neediness. And it’s because they haven’t done the inner work or aligned with the right product to truly show up and serve. And so many people practice their next closing line or their presentation or at the end of the day, if you don’t have the mindset and you don’t do the inner work, you’re just going to expose yourself as someone who needs help themselves and how can you help someone if you need help yourself? I’m not trying to put shame or put anybody under the bus, but I think the inner work makes you a way better sales representative than any specific tactic ever could. [17:39]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, what comes to mind is, as you stated with the strategy and a framework, you must start with that, but then you must own it, right? And you must internalize it. And the more you do that, the more genuine you sound, right? And that boosts your confidence, right? And gives you the mindset to continue to have ongoing conversations. You know, sales are about communication. That’s it.
Ben Albert: 100%.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah and making it about them. Oh my gosh, we are up with time then. By the way, and I said this folk earlier, he has a great voice, doesn’t he? Ben, how can my audience find you?
Ben Albert: Well, first and foremost, this conversation would not have been possible without Nancy. So, if you’re listening to this and you haven’t subscribed to her show, you haven’t hit five stars, if you haven’t left a review or sent her a direct message, any, or all of the above do that. This wouldn’t be possible without her. And then you can find real business connections exactly as it sounds, real business connections anywhere you find this podcast and that’s a good way to go deeper with me as well. [19:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Hey, folks, take advantage. Get to know this gentleman here. He’s fabulous. And, you know, who knows, he might invite you to be on one of his podcasts that would help increase your visibility. So, Ben, a huge thank you for your time today. I hope this is perhaps the beginning of, you know, a long-term relationship and then you’ll come back and join us sometime.
Ben Albert: Hey, I’m all about it, Nancy. And it’s about the relationship for me. The conversation doesn’t end here. [19:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, you got it. Make it a great sales and marketing day, everyone. See you next time. [19:44]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jan 15, 2024 | Podcast
About Brian Ahearn: Brian Ahearn, CPCU, CTM, CPT, CMCT, is a founder of Influence People, a company where they believe that Ethical Influence is the Secret to Your Professional Success and Personal Happiness. Brian is one of only a dozen individuals in the world who currently holds the Cialdini Method Certified Trainer (CMCT) designation and one of just a handful to have earned the Cialdini Pre-suasion Trainer (CPT) designation. He is also a faculty member of the prestigious Cialdini Institute. Brian’s passion is to help you achieve greater professional success and enjoy more personal happiness. He teaches you how to ethically move others to action using the science of influence. A cum laude graduate of Miami University, Brian has been in the business arena for more than 35 years and training people for over two decades. In addition to his influence, sales, and leadership work, Brian has been a business coach to regional vice presidents, sales managers, field sales reps, and wealth advisors. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Brian.
In this episode, Nancy and Brian discuss the following:
- The concept of ethical influence
- Why ethical influence is critical for success and happiness
- Revealing the secret of ethical influence
- The uniqueness of Cialdini certification
- What differs Cialdini Training from other training organizations
- The principle of liking as a foundation of success
Key Takeaways:
- Leaders aren’t going to have success if their followers don’t say Yes to the initiative.
- Scarcity is one of the things that draws people to want to engage or make decisions.
- Persuasion is about setting up the moment so that it’s easier when you attempt to persuade somebody.
- We’re learning machines, and we can be proactive about it or reactive to it, but our brains are always pulling in information and assimilating it, so we’re learning.
“ People can get influence and manipulation mixed up. And it happens quite often where somebody, you’ll talk about influence, and they’ll say, oh, it’s just manipulation. And I think there’s a big difference between ethically influencing people into decisions that are good for them. And it may also be good for you versus just getting somebody to do something because it benefits you. So, I love it when people throw up the objection that it’s manipulation because it’s so easy to answer that and educate people at the same time.” – BRIAN.
“Well, one of the things that we talk about is that everything we do is based on research. This isn’t “Hey, Nancy, this worked for me; maybe it’ll work for you.” If it worked for me, I will tell you psychologically why and support it with the principles of persuasion. So, everything that we do is based on research. The heavy emphasis is on the ethical part. And then the third thing that we try to bring forth is practical application. When talking to an audience, I always share a little bit of research to get people excited about how this could be powerful. Okay, here’s a practical way to apply it. And I want people to leave, for example, if I do a keynote, to have at least half a dozen ideas they can start doing today to become more influential.” – BRIAN.
“I would encourage everybody to start with that principle of liking because in addition to being more successful at work, think about how much better society would be, Nancy. Everybody had this mindset: I want to get to know and like you. I will look for the things we have in common: positive qualities; I will compliment you when I see the positive; I will temper myself if I see something negative and have a constructive conversation. But the world would be such a better place if people had that mindset. So that’s what I would encourage your listeners to do today. After you hear this, the next person you look at, ask yourself, what can I do to come to know and like them more?” – BRIAN.
Connect with Brian Ahearn:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Brian Ahern, the Chief Influence Officer at Influence People, an international speaker, and consultant. He specializes in applying the science of influence in everyday business situations. Brian is one of only a dozen individuals in the world who currently holds the Cialdini Method Certified Trainer designation and one of just a handful to have earned the Cialdini Persuasion Trainer designation. His passion is to help people achieve greater professional success and enjoy more personal happiness. And he teaches how to ethically move others into action using the science of influence. Welcome to the show, Brian.
Brian Ahearn: Thank you for having me on, Nancy. It’s been a little while since we’ve been able to get this recorded, but good things come to those who wait. [1:23]
Nancy Calabrese: That’s right, here we are. So, the word influence is an interesting word, and I love how you talk about how to ethically influence. What do you mean by that?
Brian Ahearn: People can get influence and manipulation mixed up. And it happens quite often where somebody, you’ll talk about influence and they’ll say, oh, it’s just manipulation. And I think there’s a big difference between ethically influencing people into decisions that are good for them. And it may be good for you as well, versus just getting somebody to do something because it benefits you. So, I love it when people throw up the objection that it’s manipulation because it’s so easy to answer that and educate people at the same time. [2:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so you state that ethical influence is critical for success and happiness. Why is that?
Brian Ahearn: Well, whenever I speak to an audience, almost the first thing I will ask is by a show of hands, how many of you would agree that much of your professional success and personal happiness depends on getting people to say yes? And inevitably every hand goes up because, for example, salespeople, they know that they’re not going to close a deal unless they hear yes. Leaders aren’t going to have success if their followers don’t say yes to the initiative. And even those who are at the top of organizations. It doesn’t matter how good the mission, vision, and values are if you can’t get people to say yes and execute. So, everybody gets it on the business side. But then when you start talking about going home, do you have a spouse, significant other, or kids? And isn’t life a lot more peaceful and happier when they more willingly say yes to you? That’s where everybody gets it. This is a 24/7, 365 skill. [3:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. And so, give me an example of ethical influence.
Brian Ahearn: Well, I’ll give you one to start with on a personal level. My daughter, who is now 27 and married, but when she was a teenager, turning into a young woman, two-hour showers, boys, all those things, the last thing she wants to do on a hot summer day is help dear old dad by cutting the grass. But I traveled a lot, and I needed help. Now, I knew Nancy that I could offer her a reward. In other words, I could say, Abigail, I will give you a raise in your allowance if you cut the grass when I want you to. Well, now she can negotiate with me, and she might have said, no thanks, Dad, I don’t like money that much or how much? And she might have negotiated me up. And I wasn’t asking her to do this every week. And the worst thing I could have done was to say, fine, now you’re going to do it because I’m your dad. And I said so. That was not the kind of relationship I wanted with her. So rather than do that, I engaged in reciprocity. That natural feeling of obligation to give back to people who first gave to us. And what I did was, I just said, we were in the car one day and I said, Abigail, I’m going to give you a raise in your allowance and dollars a week. And she said, wow, thank you so much. Do you know why? And, and I shared with her things I was genuinely proud of. But Nancy, I also knew this when the time came when I needed her help, she would be more willing. And so, it was only a few weeks later when I was getting ready to travel and I said, Hey Abigail, I’m going to go out of town. Would you mind cutting the grass? And I could see she was ready to protest a little bit, but I just said, hey, time out just gave you a raise on your allowance. Can you help me out? And she paused for a moment, and she said, okay. And she never resisted after that because she understood Dad does nice things for me, and I should do nice things in return for Dad. And that was ethically engaging, right? She was getting a $ 10-a-week raise every week, even when she didn’t have to cut the grass, I was getting the help that I needed. We were both better off and we avoided so much friction that can come with the teenage years. [5:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, that’s an awesome example. But why is the ethical influence such a secret?
Brian Ahearn: I think people get too focused on what they want rather than, okay, sure, especially salespeople, right? Salespeople want to make a sale. But an apparent wants their kids to do things, but you must think about, okay, what’s in it for them to, how can I make this in the language of Cubby Cubby, Stephen Cubby, a win-win? I like to put it this way I think that one of the components of being an ethical influencer is to create situations that are mutually beneficial so that if I can say, you know what, Nancy, it looks like it’s good for you and it’s good for me, that means we’re good to go. We’re both getting something out of this. And so, I think most people don’t think about how the other person can benefit from this because that begins to change how you interact with people when you’re looking to genuinely help others. [6:07]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, wow. Let’s talk about Cialdini. And believe it or not, I just recently heard of him. So, it’s interesting that you’re a certified trainer and a persuasion trainer. Talk about the certification and why only a few people in the world hold that.
Brian Ahearn: Well, he practices what he preaches. So, scarcity is one of the things that draws people to want to engage or make decisions. And so, when there’s only a dozen around the world, and then only five that are certified for the pre-suasion, it adds value to people like me because what I offer people can’t get, excuse me, from other places had to, excuse me, had to wet my whistle there. But people, when people realize like, for me having spent time in the insurance industry, nobody else in the insurance industry is certified to do what I do. So, they can’t get the kind of training I offer with an emphasis on insurance. So, he practices what he preaches there. They have recently though formed something called the Cialdini Institute. They formed this because as Dr. Cialdini gets older, none of us lives forever, and he’s looking at what will my legacy be. And wanting to have an even greater reach than he already had. His books have sold seven or eight million copies, but he would like the word for ethical influence to be given to everybody. And so, they formed this, the Cialdini Institute and it has him online teaching his own very words on how you engage these principles and scope. That’s shifting things a little bit, but still, a differentiator for me is I’m one of only a dozen that can like walk into an organization and do in-person training. [8:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. Yeah, but how is his training different than other training organizations?
Brian Ahearn: Well, one of the things that we talk about, everything that we do is based on research. This isn’t, hey, Nancy, this worked for me, maybe it’ll work for you. If it worked for me, I’m going to tell you psychologically why and support it with the principles of persuasion. So, everything that we do is based on research. The heavy emphasis is on the ethical part. And then the third thing that we try to bring forth is practical application. When I am talking to an audience, I always, after I share a little bit of research to get people excited about, wow, this could be powerful. Okay, here’s a practical way to put it into application. And I want people to leave, for example, if I do a keynote, to have no less than half a dozen ideas that they can start doing today to become more influential. [9:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Huh. What about the pre-suasion trainer designation? Talk to me a little bit about that.
Brian Ahearn: So, persuasion is about how you set up the moment so that when you make your ask when you attempt to persuade somebody, it’s easier. And I’ve got a wonderful story around this. I did a TEDx talk earlier this year and the opening story was me using persuasion to ask my wife to marry me. Now, I didn’t know anything about persuasion 37 years ago, but I instinctively knew I needed to do something big because I’d screwed up pretty badly. And when I asked her, I mean, I could have just done a straight-up, Hey Jane, I’m sorry for my mistakes. You know, we were on again, off again. I, so I could say, I’m sorry for my mistakes. I love you. Will you marry me? And she probably would have said no. But what I did was on her birthday on May 14th, 1987, I sent her a dozen roses to work. She liked that. I asked if I could take her to dinner. She agreed. So, I showed up at her apartment with another dozen roses and a bottle of wine. When we got ready to leave, we went downstairs and there was a silver cloud Rolls Royce and chauffeur waiting for us. We drove to one of the tallest buildings in Columbus at the time and had dinner at one of the top floors. So, it was very romantic. And then in the back of the Rolls, I asked the question. So, you know, when you set the stage romantically, right? That makes it easier for somebody to potentially say yes, but it’s not just romance, it’s business. So, in business, what can we say or do that would maybe put somebody in a mindset that’s more conducive to ultimately saying yes to us? [10:49]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. Well, that’s cool. So, I guess you’re a charmer, a natural charmer.
Brian Ahearn: Ha ha ha, I’m a fast learner. That’s what I was. And I was highly motivated.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. What is your unique idea that is different and sets you apart? What makes you unique?
Brian Ahearn: Well, in terms of what I do around the influence, well, I think around influence, what I have come to see over the years is the emphasis on what we call the principle of liking, which everybody gets this one, right? It’s easier for you, Nancy, to say yes to me if you know me and like me. It’s not that hard to get people to like you, but what’s the most important thing for anybody is that you get to know and like the other person. So, the more that I get to know you, Nancy, the more that I see your good qualities, the more that I find things that we have in common, that I offer genuine compliments, all of those things make me like you. And the difference there is when you begin to sense, hey, Brian really likes me, he cares for me, he has my best interests at heart. That’s what changes everything because it’s no longer a guy trying to sell you something, it’s somebody who genuinely cares and is looking to help. And even if you have to say no, your no is different than somebody who’s just trying to make a sale. So, I’m always emphasizing people, especially in relationship businesses, and insurance agents are in a relationship business with their clients, do everything you can to get to know and like the people that you are working with, the clients that you are serving the insurance carriers may be that you’re interacting with, because not only will you enjoy your days more, you will get a lot more accomplished when people recognize that you really do care about their interests and not just your own. [12:45]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Huh. Is there something in particular you would like me to spotlight?
Brian Ahearn: I would say that is, for me, that’s the key. Because I think that’s the foundation. Once I get to know and really like you, Nancy, then when I want to engage reciprocity, as I did with my daughter, I understand how to give to you in more beneficial ways. I’m not just offering you a pen because that’s my company. I listen to you, and I know what you like, and so I try to cater to that in terms of how I help. It begins to inform some of the other principles that we talk about. And that’s why I think it’s the foundation for the house that you’re building on that we call influence. [13:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh. Tell me a fun fact about you.
Brian Ahearn: I was born on April Fool’s Day in Honolulu, Hawaii.
Nancy Calabrese: Somebody had to be born that day.
Brian Ahearn: But that’s right. And everybody’s like, oh my gosh, that must have been great. No, I don’t remember any of it. I was a year and a half old when we left. My dad was in the Marines, and he was stationed there during Vietnam. So, I was born in Tripler Army Hospital. And then again, at a year and a half old, we moved back to the New York area where the family was originally from. [14:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, well, I missed it by a couple of hours. My birthday is March 31st.
Brian Ahearn: You know, that’s not a bad thing, because you get teased a lot, but I tell people, I may be a fool, but I’m not stupid.
Nancy Calabrese: I know. You’re not stupid. Tell me something true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Brian Ahearn: that I’m a fool, but I’m not stupid. No. You know, what’s interesting is that I don’t know about a Grion, but people have a misperception about me. And I have a very serious look about me. I mean, it’s just, it is what it is. But when people get to know me, they realize I have a great sense of humor. And my wife says I’m rarely serious. But I have learned that makes whatever I do that much funnier, funnier because if I’m on stage and I’ve got a serious look and then I kind of cut the grain with a funny story about me and my wife or something like that, it takes people back like, ooh, I didn’t expect that. So, I’ve learned that I don’t need to be anybody who’s any different, I just need to learn how to leverage this natural quality that I have in a way that becomes beneficial for me and the people who are listening. [15:19]
Nancy Calabrese: In your experience, so when you’re working with an organization or an individual, you know, about influence and persuasion, how long does it take for the light bulb to go off? When do you see that, okay, they get it?
Brian Ahearn: That can vary so much for different people. Some people almost intuitively do the things that I talk about. I mean, after all, it’s human behavior. And so maybe they had a parent who was good at this, and they observed, or they learned directly from them. And other people, you must hold their hand for quite some time because they can think that they understand these principles that I talk about, for example, reciprocity. And they may get into a reward negotiation, thinking that they’re engaging in reciprocity and they’re not. Reciprocity is about giving and then trusting that person will be open to doing something for you in return should you need a favor. So, it’s not a negotiation strategy, it’s engaging differently. So, there are so many little things that people can get mixed up. One of the things that we’re doing through the Cialdini Institute to help overcome that is, when people go through the online training, if an organization says, let’s say they put a dozen people through, they’ll have eight one-hour coaching sessions along the way as they’re going through to solidify with a certified individual how to put these concepts into practice. And we think that that’s going to help much more than maybe an immersive two-day workshop and then people just go about their normal lives after that. [16:59]
Nancy Calabrese: And then when they get it, is there, do you recommend ongoing training or is it like a one-and-done kind of deal?
Brian Ahearn: No, I think I think when you get it you start realizing how powerful it is and you keep looking to learn more and for more application, I’ve been associated with Dr. Cialdini for 20 years I’ve been a certified trainer for 15 of those years and I am still learning and I’m still amazed at how I can reread some of his books and go. Oh, wow. How did I miss that? That seems so important now. So, I think it’s an ongoing process we need this skill like I said, every day of our lives, so why not keep looking to perfect it? You know, for some people, just a 1% change is huge because they might already be really good. [17:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, I’m a big believer in ongoing training. I mean, when I look back on my career, I was always a big fan of it. And as you said, even though I’ve been involved in training for so long, I always walk away with a new nugget of information or something’s brought up and I’ll say, oh my God, I’ve forgotten, I haven’t been doing that, you know?
Brian Ahearn: Yeah, I think we are, I mean, we’re learning machines, and we can be proactive about it or we can be reactive to it, but our brains are always pulling in information and assimilating it and so we’re learning, so why not direct how you’re going to learn. [18:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure, sure. I can’t believe we’re up in time, Brian. And last question, what is the one takeaway you’d like to leave the audience with?
Brian Ahearn: Well, there’s so many that I think about, you know, that influence is critical for their success that they need to know that. But I would encourage everybody to start with that principle of liking, because in addition to being more successful at work, think about how much better society would be, Nancy. Everybody had this mindset that said, I want to get to know you and like you. I’m going to choose to look for the things we have in common, positive qualities, I’m going to compliment you when I see the positive, I’m going to temper myself if I see something negative, and have a constructive conversation. But the world would be such a better place if people had that mindset. So that’s what I would encourage your listeners to do today. After you hear this, the next person you look at, ask yourself, what can I do to come to know and like them more? [19:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, I love that. How can my people find you?
Brian Ahearn: Well, two sources are the best. I’m all over LinkedIn. So, if anybody is listening to the show, if you reach out, I’m happy to connect with you. And I promise that you will get a personal reply from me. If you don’t say, I heard you on Nancy’s show, I’m going to ask you, how’d you find me? But even if you do say that you heard me on the show, I’m going to still have a personal message. I think social media should be social. And so, I always will do that with people I connect with. And then the other place is my website which is influencepeople.biz. If people go out there, there’s a wealth of information. I’ve been blogging for almost 15 years every single week. There are videos, more than 160 podcast episodes I’ve been on, videos, and links to my books. So there is a wealth of information out there on the website. [20:18]
Nancy Calabrese: Wonderful. Hey, folks, reach out to Brian. I find what you do is so fascinating. And I guess, you know, when you think about it, we all want to influence or persuade people in a way to get what we want. And you are the guy, Brian, who can teach us how to do that ethically. So, thanks so much for being on the show, Brian, and for everyone out there, and making it an awesome, influential day. See you next time. [20:52]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jan 10, 2024 | Podcast
About David D. Doerrier: David D. Doerrier founded Present Your Way To Success, specializing in transforming intelligent individuals into extraordinary speakers and facilitators. David, a premier presenter in the business world, is dedicated to helping industry leaders and trainers create captivating presentations that deeply resonate with their audiences. Drawing on his experience as a radio broadcaster, stage actor, voiceover artist, and even a professional Santa Claus, David brings a one-of-a-kind approach that combines his unique style with best practices. Having spent 28 years as an air transportation specialist and kick-starting his training career in the USAF, David has worked with numerous Fortune 15 companies. Today, he empowers speakers, trainers, and leaders to significantly elevate their presentations and achieve outstanding results. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about David.
In this episode, Nancy and David discuss the following:
- The concept of the adult learning theory
- Why should presenters be familiar with this theory
- Techniques to keep different learning types of audiences engaged
- Virtual and In-Person engagements: differences and similarities
- The tips with the camera to look more professional at the virtual presentation
- What do many presenters struggle with the most
- The definition of audience engagement
Key Takeaways:
- Presenters should be familiar with it because, going back to my tagline, talking and telling ain’t training or selling.
- Training is like running a marathon.
- One of the easiest ways of creating a connection or engagement with your virtual audience is to look into the camera.
- What you’re hoping for is for your audience to ask questions, look at you, write things down, and look like they are engaged, but the way you get them to that point is by using these adult learning theories.
“The adult learning theory, at its core, is all about creating engagement with your audience. And I believe that the more engagement you have with your audience, the more your message will resonate and stick and be memorable with your audience.” – DAVID.
“Well, there are many things, but I put three things at the top of the list that all presenters should keep in mind when presenting. The first step is to know your audience. I have seen it many times where a presenter at a networking event, for example, is talking to us in the audience as if we are experts in whatever field they are in. So, number one is to know your audience. Number two is to incorporate stories into your presentation. There is a right way and a wrong way of incorporating stories. You want to keep them short enough that you’re able to provide enough color and enough information in the story. You don’t want them to; you don’t want to ramble on about the story. So, the story should incorporate three things. What was the problem? What solution did you provide? And third, what was the outcome after your client’s solution? Now, there are many different types of stories. Now, what I described would be a business situation based on the problem, solution, and outcome. So, two of the three, number one is to know your audience, number two is to incorporate stories, and number three is to have a compelling conclusion. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone give a presentation, they get to the end, and it’s just “Okay, I’m outta here, bye-bye,” some sort of conclusion, maybe a review or a call to action or a deal of some sort. So there needs to be a compelling conclusion.” – DAVID.
“If it’s a smaller audience, that gives me the luxury of maybe asking questions that can be answered, where I could ask actual questions to the audience, get them to participate through questions. I can still do that with a larger audience, but it depends on my time. This is also where the facilitator needs to be experienced enough to manage time. Asking questions of your audience and expecting feedback can set the whole presentation off the rails because now your audience could easily take over. So here, the facilitator needs to be experienced enough to keep control. So, I would say there are many more similarities than differences, where if you’re not asking actual questions of your audience, you could ask rhetorical questions. Certainly, the way you present to a larger audience must be bigger and more robust, I guess, to be able to speak to and for everyone to hear you in that entire room. And just like acting, if you’re going to be an actor on a stage, your mannerisms need to be bigger, your voice needs to be bigger, you need to project so your entire audience can hear you.” – DAVID.
Connect with David D. Doerrier:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with David D. Doerrier, a presentation skills expert with years of expertise and a passion for seeing others thrive. He is a US Air Force retiree with a highly successful career in instructional design, classroom facilitation, and corporate leadership training. Throughout his career, throughout his time coaching other presenters and trainers, he has witnessed the lack of foundational skills needed to make an impact that matters to a listener. And David believes that without proper education on engaging with your audience, you’ll overwhelm them with information they can’t even use. Talking and telling ain’t training or selling. I love that line and I agree with this David. Welcome to the show.
David D. Doerrier: Well, thank you so much, Nancy. This is certainly a pleasure to be with you today. I have been looking forward to this interview for quite some time. So, thank you. [1:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I know we had to postpone the last time. So here we are, finally. Let’s just jump into this. What is the adult learning theory?
David D. Doerrier: Well, that’s a great question right out of the gate. So the adult learning theory at the core of it, it’s all about creating engagement with your audience. And I believe that the more engagement that you have with your audience, the more that your message is going to resonate and stick and be memorable with your audience. [1:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Okay, why should presenters be familiar with this theory?
David D. Doerrier: Well, the reason they should be familiar with it is going back to my tagline, talking and telling ain’t training or selling. So having a basic understanding of how adults learn, how adults retain information, and understanding those processes, which come from the adult learning theory. Understanding those processes is going to give a speaker an edge over others because now you have some tools in your toolbox or your hip pocket that are going to help you not only write your material but also when you’re up on stage presenting it to your audience. After all, now you have a clear understanding of what it is your audience is looking for and how they will be able to retain that information longer. [2:53]
Nancy Calabrese: But don’t adults or people in general learn differently?
David D. Doerrier: Ah, that’s a great question. Yes, we all learn differently. The adult learning theory consists of two parts. There are eight principles that all adults are looking for to be engaged. And yes, to answer your question, we are all different. Some people will learn auditory, some are visual, some are kinesthetic, some people learn best on their own, best in groups and some people need to know the entire process or the entire everything from A to Z about the topic whereas others only need to know certain pieces so yes you have to be familiar with what is it that we’re all looking for to be engaged but also be aware of the differences. [3:50]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, but how do you do that? So you have an audience, you don’t know who learns what way. So how is it all tied together to keep them engaged?
David D. Doerrier: Well, this is going to come from, a great question. I’m glad you asked that question. Some of it comes from first understanding what is the current knowledge level of your audience. I know I’m getting to how everybody learns differently. This is gonna, this takes where, as a facilitator, takes practice to under, well, let me back up a minute. As a facilitator, I should bring with me into that, let’s use the example of the classroom, I need to bring with me ways that are going to be of interest to all types of learners. So, if I’m going to be training something I need to be aware that I need to train this for people that are experienced and people that are not and have different ways of disseminating that information for different ways of learning in the audience. I hope I’m making sense. My tongue is all tied around my teeth right now. [5:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, I guess, you know, my takeaway from this part of our discussion is you must put a little bit of everything for all learning types, right, in your presentation.
David D. Doerrier: Perfect. Yes. Yeah. And that’s going to take experience. So that, that brand new trainer, there’s a lot that has to be learned. You know, training is like running a marathon. It is constantly using your head to adjust to different things that are going on in the classroom or virtually however you’re, you’re training. But it’s, there’s a lot of things that have to be incorporated into that training. Going back to my tagline. Talking and telling ain’t training or selling. There’s a lot that goes into this. [5:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Holy cow. So how has your background prepared you for this business?
David D. Doerrier: Great question. So, after high school, went into the military, and I had always had a passion for radio broadcasting and eventually, I had the opportunity to get into radio broadcasting. Radio broadcasting led me into theater because one of the folks that I worked with was, was directing dinner theater. So now I got to be on stage and then through the Air Force, I was eventually asked to be a trainer back in 1995, and that is what started my 30-year career in training and development. Along the way started training trainers and training other folks within the organization to be better presenters, workshop leaders, and so on. And I’ve been a part of Toastmasters for 30 years. So, I think all those things have contributed to where I am today. [6:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. You know, so much of today, post-COVID, is virtual. So you have virtual engagements and then you have in-person engagements. Are the techniques different?
David D. Doerrier: Great question. There are many similarities between virtual and in-person. However, virtual requires cranking everything up to an 11. In both cases, the facilitator needs to set the stage. What are we doing? Why are we doing it? How are we going to do it? What can you expect from me, the facilitator? What do I expect from my audience in both cases? But in virtual, it’s so much more important to start things off from the very beginning with engagement. Now, yes, you need to do that face-to-face, but it is so much more crucial in virtual and keeping them engaged throughout the entire presentation. [8:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, so virtual, you must look at the person that you’re speaking with, right? So, is that any different than in person?
David D. Doerrier: Yes. So certainly if we are in person and here I can scan my audience, I’m standing in front of my audience, I can feel my audience, I can hear them, I can hear them breathing and if they, if they’re chuckling or if they’re, if they are laughing and so on, it certainly can experience that, but in virtual world you can’t feel all of that, but as far as looking at your audience, this takes practice to look directly into the camera. And I suggest getting a camera that you can adjust the height of it. And my particular camera is the type where I have it centered on my screen. So now I don’t have to look above my screen or at the top of my monitor. I now have, it’s still difficult. You’re not looking people in the eyes because from the user side, if I was looking at my second monitor, for example, and looking at everybody in their eyes, the people that are observing me, I’m not looking at them. So, one of the easiest ways of creating a connection or engagement with your virtual audience is to look into the camera. Now, I do know that we do virtually, we need to look away many times, but at minimum, what I would suggest is looking directly into the camera during your introduction, during transitions, when you ask questions, when you’re responding to questions, when you’re telling stories, and during your conclusion, you’re looking directly into that camera. [10:02]
Nancy Calabrese: Into the camera and not at the people. So I have found that I have to minimize the view and move the screen up right below the camera. So I’m making eye contact with them. If I don’t, it looks like I’m looking down. Is that your experience?
David D. Doerrier: Exactly. And, and what you described, you’re looking down and what I’ve seen with others, they have all the faces, all the people on a second monitor. So now they’re looking either to the right or to the left, which makes it even worse.
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, wow. So based on your experience, what do many presenters struggle with the most?
David D. Doerrier: Well, there are many things, but there are three things that I put at the top of the list that all presenters should keep in mind when presenting. And the first is to know your audience. I have seen it many times where a presenter at a networking event, for example, is talking to us in the audience as if we are experts in whatever field they are in. So number one is to know your audience. Number two is to incorporate stories into your presentation. Now there is a right way and a wrong way of incorporating stories. You want to keep them short enough that you’re able to provide enough color and enough information in the story. You don’t want them to you don’t want to ramble on about the story. So the story should incorporate three things. What was the problem? What solution did you provide? And third, what was the outcome after your client’s solution? Now there are many different types of stories. Now what I described would be a business situation based on what was the problem, solution, and outcome. So, two of the three, number one is to know your audience, number two, incorporate stories, and number three, have a compelling conclusion. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone give a presentation, they get to the end and it’s just “Okay, I’m outta here, bye-bye”, some sort of conclusion, maybe a review or a call to action or a deal of some sort. So there needs to be a compelling conclusion. [12:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah. Well, what’s the definition of audience engagement?
David D. Doerrier: That’s a great question. There are so many different ways to engage the audience. And I would say that what you’re hoping for is your audience to ask questions, to look at you, to be writing things down, to look like they are engaged. But the way that you get them to that point is by using these adult learning theories. For example, I’ll give you one of them to get your audience to take ownership in wanting to listen. And the only way that your audience is going to take ownership is that the facilitator needs to create an opening that says, why are we here? What are we doing? What’s the value that you’re going to get out of this? And if you stick with me to the end of this training or the end of this presentation, you’re going to be able to leave here with a better knowledge of X. So now your audience, if they take ownership, that’s going to get your audience to be more engaged or ask questions or to participate with the chat virtually or whiteboard virtually or polls. So, yes, you want to get them engaged but there are processes that you must put into place that’s going to get them there. [13:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Great, does it take someone to pull this together? So they become a client of yours. What’s your experience in seeing the improvement in audience engagement?
David D. Doerrier: Within a 90-minute session, I can improve there, well, it depends on what their objectives are. So if their objectives are, if they want to just take their engagement up a couple of notches, I can do that in 90 minutes. What I look at is what they are presenting. Who are they presenting it to? When are they gonna be presenting? Taking their existing presentation and reformatting it in a way that we create a compelling introduction, we create transitions, we create engagement throughout the presentation, and we create an engaging conclusion. And just by doing that, the next time they present it, I guarantee it will increase engagement. [15:05]
Nancy Calabrese: Is there a difference between speaking to a large audience versus a small audience as it relates to audience engagement?
David D. Doerrier: Yes, and no. So yes, in the way of, if it’s a smaller audience, that gives me the luxury of maybe asking questions that can be answered, where I could ask actual questions to the audience, get them to participate through questions. I can still do that with a larger audience, but a lot of it depends on how much time I have. And this also is where the facilitator needs to be experienced enough to be good at time management. Asking questions of your audience and expecting feedback can set the whole presentation off the rails because now your audience could easily take over. So here, the facilitator needs to be experienced enough to keep control. So, I would say that there are many more similarities than there are differences, where if you’re not asking actual questions of your audience, you could ask rhetorical questions. Certainly, the way that you present to a larger audience must be bigger and more robust, I guess, to be able to speak to and for everyone to be able to hear you in that entire room. And just like acting, if you’re gonna be an actor on a stage, your mannerisms need to be bigger, your voice needs to be bigger, you need to project so your entire audience can hear you. [16:54]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, well how did you end up in this business?
David D. Doerrier: Well, great question. I ended up in the business through the Air Force., I did 10 years active duty then 18 years in the reserves and the entire time in the same career field. In 1995, when I was in my reserve unit in San Antonio, Texas, my first sergeant asked, said there was an opportunity to be a trainer at Dobbins Air Force Base and Marietta, Georgia. Would you like to go? And at that point, I had a theater background. I had a radio background. And I took advantage of it. That was when I started learning the craft of training and writing training, delivering training daily, and eventually working for civilian organizations and eventually training trainers to train others within the organization, and found that I loved it. I just loved this part of what I was doing. And I knew that at some point I wanted this to be my full-time job. I had it as a side hustle for five years. And then at the end of last year, I left the corporation, and now it is my full-time business. [18:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. Do what you love, love what you do, right? And just one last question, what do you love about it so much?
David D. Doerrier: Exactly. Oh, that’s a great question. You know, in my business, I’ve had an opportunity to ask this same question to hundreds of trainers. What is it that you love the most about training or coaching? And it’s the gotcha factor where I, when I see my audience, get it. You asked me the question earlier about how long I need to get someone to increase engagement in their presentation – 90 minutes. And then when they come back for their second coaching session, we evaluate how that worked and they’re telling me “Hey, this worked, this worked”. That is what feeds me. And I’ve got goosebumps right now thinking about these, these folks that I’ve worked with, and it works. [18:58]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, it works. You know, I love speaking to passionate people. You were passionate about what you do. We have to end our conversation, unfortunately, but how can my people find you?
David D. Doerrier: Oh, great question. Two ways. One is through my website, presentyourwaytosuccess.com/. The other is through LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/daviddoerrier/. So, get in touch with me through my website, get in touch with me through LinkedIn. Let me know that you heard this podcast with myself and Nancy, and I will send you a free copy of my eBook Eight Principles of Engagement.
Nancy Calabrese: Love it, love it. People take advantage of David’s offering and David you were an absolute pleasure. I hope that we’ll continue conversations in the future and make it a great presentation day. I usually say sales day, but a presentation day. Let’s get everyone engaged. So, thanks David again for coming to the show.
David D. Doerrier: Thank you. [20:09]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jan 8, 2024 | Podcast
About Clare Price: Clare Price is CEO of Octain, a marketing consultancy that is transforming the way companies do marketing. She started working remotely in the 1980s as a tech reporter for InformationWeek magazine, and later as a research director for Gartner. Before launching CFP MediaGroup (now Octain), she was Vice President of Research for Demand Metric, a strategic marketing advisory service where she led the research analysis into cloud computing applications for marketing automation, social platforms, and several other products. Clare is the author of two books and an experienced speaker with clients like the American Marketing Association, Vistage, and many others. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Clare.
In this episode, Nancy and Clare discuss the following:
- Octaine Growth Systems – the new force in modern marketing
- Ways to determine the best strategy for each company
- Transitions from trial and error to predictable revenue growth
- Encouraging sales and marketing teams to work together
- Main facts from Clare’s book “Smart Marketing Execution”
- Customer Targeting and Profiling
- AI revolution and why should we be cautious about it
Key Takeaways:
- For most small business owners and fractional consultants, the brand is your reputation.
- We recommend understanding the customer’s Why, not Who the customer is.
- You need to change the way marketing needs to redefine marketing.
- But I do think that the caution is to let AI do the work for you but don’t let it think for you.
- Challenge your assumptions.
“We start with the structure that we’ve developed is what we call a canvas model, and we start with discovery. It is understanding where that company is in terms of what we call the six areas of market acceleration, which are brand development, customer acquisition, message clarity, market expansion, sales enablement, and product innovation. So, we will do a discovery assessment of that company in those six areas to see where they are today, where are their gaps, where are their opportunities, and from that standpoint, then we do an evaluation and recommendations.” – CLARE.
“And what our sales enablement module does is bring the marketing and sales team together to create a unified team. We have a lot of tools that we use to help the team understand each other because you’re more on the sales side, and I’m more on the marketing side. We have different ways of looking at the world, right? So, the marketing person is looking at the forest, and the salesperson is looking at that one tree that is going to give them the clothes they need for that month, right? And so, we have different ways of looking at the world, and we must understand and share each other’s perspectives. So, one of the things that we recommend in the book with our sales enablement module is what we call ride-along: where the marketing person will get in the car. You want to do the physical live ride-along and drive up to the business owner’s door or the virtual ride-along where they are in the Zoom call, and they can see how the salesperson navigates through the sales call. And we feel that that’s a really good way to learn how to walk in each other’s shoes. By contrast, the sales team could also get involved with our sales enablement approach in doing some planning for a marketing event like a conference or putting together a specific piece of collateral or material so that they kind of see, well, how does that marketing person put their magic together?” – CLARE.
“I think there have been a lot of changes, but I think the biggest change is from broadcasting your offer to personalizing, individualizing, and presenting deep individual value to your target. The idea of broadcasting out, we’ve got, you know “Hey, 25% off. Will you get it now?” is not something that a lot of savvy consumers want. And particularly the younger generation, millennials and younger, don’t want to just buy a product or buy a professional service because it’s going to solve a problem. They want to be part of something that’s going to make their life, their community, and the world better. And that’s a big shift.” – CLARE.
Connect with Clare Price:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Claire Price, the CEO of Octane Growth Systems, a marketing consultancy transforming how companies do marketing. Before launching Octane, Claire was a research director for Gartner’s Internet Strategies Service. She also served as vice president of research for Demand Metric, a strategic marketing advisory service. Her new book, Smart Marketing Execution, defines the strategies, execution process, and automated systems that mid-market companies and agency owners need to use to accelerate their profits, performance, and productivity. Welcome to the show, Claire.
Clare Price: Thank you, Nancy. It’s a pleasure to be here. [1:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so let’s just jump into Octaine Growth Systems. You state that it is the new force in modern marketing. Why is that? Tell us more about it.
Clare Price: Yeah, just to kind of give you a little bit of background, I’d like to share my journey to creating the system. I was a struggling small business owner and someone with both marketing and strategy, background, and knowledge. What I found in working with so many marketing companies and also what I was doing on my own was there’s so much trial-and-error marketing happening. People would throw things out there, hope it worked, didn’t work, roll it back, shift, pivot, throw it up against the wall, see if it sticks kind of mentality. And that was costing all of us so much time and money. And it’s a business killer. It’s an absolute business killer. So over the last 10 years, beginning in 2012, I’ve been on a quest to develop a new way of approaching marketing I call it redefining your marketing engine that allows business owners and fractional consultants like myself to do marketing in a very different way and how is it different it’s different because it combines and integrates strategy what we call smart execution and automation into one marketing operating system most small businesses and don’t do strategy. They just jump in and start by ads or getting their social media out or whatever. And this is a way for them to do a strategy that’s not intimidating, not expensive, and gives them results very quickly. [3:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. But how do you determine what strategy is right for what company?
Clare Price: We start with the structure that we’ve developed is what we call a canvas model, and we start with discovery. It is understanding where that company is in terms of what we call the six areas of market acceleration, which are brand development, customer acquisition, message clarity, market expansion, sales enablement, and product innovation. So, we will do a discovery assessment of that company in those six areas to see where they are today, where are their gaps, where are their opportunities, and from that standpoint, then we do an evaluation and recommendations. [4:05]
Nancy Calabrese: So how long does it take for a company to go from trial and error to predictable revenue growth?
Clare Price: We work with them for a minimum of six months. We typically see results after the first three months because as we are developing each of the accelerators, we roll it out. So, it is not the old consulting model where you have a big discovery meeting or two, run away for six months, and then come back with them, and I know Nancy, you’ve had this experience, the THUD factor, the big plan on the desk, right? We don’t do that. We involve our clients in a collaborative, what we call collaborative consulting approach, where they’re building the strategy with us. So, they can see how it works, and what we do, and provide their values, inputs, and processes into it, so it becomes theirs. And as each accelerator rolls out, we start we start seeing results from that. So, they’re continual, it’s a build factor as opposed to waiting for the big reveal and then bringing everything out at once. [5:24]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, it’s funny when I’m listening to you and I know that in my business and I think in your business, it takes time, right, to get the attention, get the word out there. And so, after six months, you say typically they work with you for six months. What happens then? You know, are they on their own or do they continue to work with you?
Clare Price: Well, six months is usually when we complete the planning and rollout. Most of our clients are engaged with us for 12 to 18 months. Some have stayed as long as three years, but beyond that, 12 to 18 months, we want to help them develop their marketing department. We’re not there to become their marketing department. We will help them hire the right people and get the right people in the right seats. We help them automate so that they have the tools to get them out of constant manual rework and into more of an automated system that they can have someone within their company run. [6:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, sales and marketing, there’s always the misnomer that there’s a clash, but I think both teams should work together. How do you encourage that? And once they work together as a team, I’m guessing they can deliver higher revenues and profits, you know, lead gen and lead qualification as well.
Clare Price: Absolutely, Nancy. That is our philosophy. That’s why one of the accelerators that we have as part of the system is sales enablement. And what our sales enablement module does is bring the marketing and sales team together to create a unified team. We have a lot of tools that we use to help the team understand each other because you’re more on the sales side, and I’m more on the marketing side. We have different ways of looking at the world, right? So, the marketing person is looking at the forest, and the salesperson is looking at that one tree that is going to give them the clothes they need for that month, right? And so, we have different ways of looking at the world, and we must understand and share each other’s perspectives. So, one of the things that we recommend in the book with our sales enablement module is what we call ride-along. [7:54]
Nancy Calabrese: What a great example, right? It’s true.
Clare Price: where the marketing person will get in the car. You want to do the physical live ride-along and drive up to the business owner’s door or the virtual ride-along where they are in the Zoom call, and they can see how the salesperson navigates through the sales call. And we feel that that’s a really good way to learn how to walk in each other’s shoes. By contrast, the sales team could also get involved with our sales enablement approach in doing some planning for a marketing event like a conference or putting together a specific piece of collateral or material so that they kind of see, well, how does that marketing person put their magic together? [8:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, I think that’s a great idea. You know, it often baffled me that there was friction between the two, whereas, you know, if you unite, I think your point is you have to look at it through their eyes, right, and see what their world is like.
Clare Price: Exactly, and I think it’s very important. I think it’s more important now. I’ll be very strong on this I think it’s more important for marketing to understand what the sales world is like Because marketing should be the front line of providing good quality leads to the salespeople. That’s the job of marketing. The job of marketing is not to create wonderful; you know branding and get brand recognition with their wonderful logos and all of that stuff. The real honest job of marketing is to provide good quality leads to the sales team that they can close. [9:49]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, let’s talk more about your book, Smart Marketing Execution. What motivated you to write it? And talk about the strategies that you recommend in the book.
Clare Price: Thank you, Nancy. What motivated me to write it was trying to put a lot of the tools strategies and frameworks that I’ve been using with my clients into an easy-to-digest system or book that someone could pick up and use and drive for their own business. So, what I tried to do in the book was again, lay out those key accelerator’s examples of the tools that we use. And my philosophy on this is really, it should be a guide, a guidebook. This should be a journey guide for anyone who wants to change or consider changing the old way of doing marketing. So, we try to take everyone step by step through the process. Why do you want to do this, why do you want to create a brand? A lot, there’s just one example there’s a lot of misconceptions about what is a brand and why you need one. For most small business owners and fractional consultants, the brand is your reputation. It’s not what we think of when we think of you know, Tide or Google or Apple or one of those big, you know, brands. If you’re a smaller mid-size company business owner or you’re a fractional consultant, your brand is your reputation. When you walk into a room, do people know you? When you hand your business card off to people, whether it’s digitally or in person, is it recognizable? Will people see you in the community? Those are the kinds of things that we talk to our clients about and our consultants about in building a brand. And we’ve walked through that very carefully in the book. The other thing that I think that I wanted to point out is that’s, I think, the secret sauce in the book is the way that we manage client and customer targeting and profiling. Because most of the time, the typical marketing approach to your ideal customer is, and I’m sure you’ve had this experience, Nancy, an agency, or someone will come to you who’s doing a website and say, okay, who’s your ideal client? And you give them three or four or five facts about who that ideal client is. Typically, those facts are demographics. They are, okay, that’s a certain size company, certain role in the company, certain industry, geographic location, right? Well, I have a marketing guru friend who said, I think one of the most spectacular comments about demographics you ever want to hear. Her comment was demographics are the least useful thing that you need to know about your customer. Because after all, who wants to get an email saying, dear female, 25 to 55, here is our offer? [13:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Ha Ha. Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. So, yeah, what do you recommend?
Clare Price: So, what we do, what we recommend is understanding the customers why. We spend a lot of time understanding, not who that customer is. Of course, we must know that. There must be that front-line or foundational profile. But why do they buy? What motivates them? What are their true needs, desires, and wants? What do they value? because if they value something, like for example, use a typical example. If someone is motivated to lose weight, they’re going to value diet programs, diet counseling, diet, workouts, personal trainers, that whole thing. If they’re motivated to drive their business into a new geographic area, which is a plant that we’re working on. But now they value understanding that new market and how to quickly become the mayor of that new market space. [14:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. You know, you talked a few minutes ago about the old way of marketing. How has marketing changed?
Clare Price: I think there have been a lot of changes, but I think the biggest change is from broadcasting your offer to personalizing, individualizing, and presenting deep individual value to your target. The idea of broadcasting out, we’ve got, you know “Hey, 25% off. Will you get it now?” is not something that a lot of savvy consumers want. And particularly the younger generation, millennials and younger, don’t want to just buy a product or buy a professional service because it’s going to solve a problem. They want to be part of something that’s going to make their life, their community, and the world better. And that’s a big shift. [15:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. How long has that been going on? You know, the change or the shift?
Clare Price: I would say that we’ve really been seeing the social responsibility shift heavily growing and becoming a huge trend. I’m going to guess here maybe five years, maybe longer, but five years.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Okay, so little change of questioning. Tell me a fun fact about you.
Clare Price: Well, we started out talking about our dogs, right? So, my fun fact is that for a good part of the last 10 years or so, I have been very active in a competitive dog sport called dog agility. I’ve taken two dogs to the master’s level in dog agility I trained with in Sacramento, California, trained with one of the top trainers in the sport and I just love dog sports. And so that was a fun thing for me. Unfortunately, like a lot of the football players and basketball players out there, I had a career-ending injury a couple of years ago and I can no longer run because I broke my knee. So, I’m working with my new puppy in obedience and rally and things that are not so athletically required. [17:08]
Nancy Calabrese: That is so cool, so cool. And folks, when you check out Claire’s website, you’re going to see which dog is on your team on the site.
Clare Price: That is ours, that’s my new puppy, Ashton. He is 14 months old, and he is our chief happiness officer.
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. All right. So, getting back to you and what you do, tell me something true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Clare Price: That is a very, very interesting question. And I would say that would be how you need to change the way marketing needs to redefine marketing. I think there’s a lot of resistance to that. People are used to doing it the way they’ve done it, especially if they’ve been profitable at it. And I think that a lot of people are used to people who are kind of stuck in that old way of doing marketing, the old way of building their business are going to get caught. The other thing, as I’m thinking about, is the other thing that I think people may not agree with me on, I think you’ve got to be very cautious about this new AI revolution. I think that there is a lot of good there. But there’s also a tendency to let it do too much of the work for you. Let it do, here’s my advice on AI. I’m doing a lot of work with AI in my own business and working with clients and been doing a ton of research on it lately. Nancy, and it’s a huge new thing, right? But I do think that the caution is to let it do the work for you but don’t let it think for you. [19:02]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, I like that. Yep. I mean, in thinking about what you just said, it’s true. I mean, if it’s a jumpstart, I think AI could be used as a jumpstart, right? And then you must make it your own. Yeah, wow. Listen, we’re up with our time and this has been a fascinating discussion. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Clare Price: Absolutely. Challenge your assumptions. And then I also wanted to, if it’s OK with you, offer the audience the opportunity to download a free chapter of my book. And, I have a brainstorming call with me. Yeah, they go to octaingrowth.com. And that is https://octaingrowth.com/myoffer/ .
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, well, you heard it folks. I think that’s a very generous offer. So please take advantage of it. Claire, you’re a fascinating lady. And I also know you love birds. But I thought you were going to bring that one up, but that’s for another conversation, okay? Yes, and everyone out there, make it a great sales day. And I’m going to say a sales and marketing day. See you next time. [20:32]
