by Nancy Calabrese | Feb 1, 2024 | Podcast
About Nate Morse: Nate Morse founded the APEX Conversion System, a company dedicated to helping industry leaders generate high-quality leads on LinkedIn. Apex’s mission is to assist those with valuable offerings who struggle to find and attract the right clients. They have a three-phase approach that begins with a discovery phase, where they identify the client’s values and target audience. Nate’s experience in the online world has taught him that understanding the buyer’s journey can significantly impact lead generation. Apex Conversion System works with coaches, consultants, agencies, nonprofits, and financial advisors who offer high-ticket products or services. Nate has also authored a book, “The LinkedIn High Ticket Handbook,” which guides optimizing LinkedIn profiles and building an audience for conversion. This book is a valuable resource for individuals who know they should be on LinkedIn but need help getting started and making their profiles stand out. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Nate.
In this episode, Nancy and Nate discuss the following:
- APEX’s approach to helping industry leaders generate high-quality leads
- Identifying ideal clients and standing out on LinkedIn
- Why is it that some businesses thrive on LinkedIn and others are lost
- The importance of relevancy and personalization in messaging
- Rating clients based on various criteria to identify the best fit
- Optimizing profiles and avoiding brochure-like content
Key Takeaways:
- The Better Client Blueprint is a process we go through, and we have clients rate their current clients based on different criteria.
- On LinkedIn, we’re not playing the quantity game.
- The number one reason businesses fail statistically is the lack of market research.
- When trying to build genuine, lasting relationships on LinkedIn, most people underestimate the initial reason they’re reaching out.
“ So when we talk about industry leaders, I want to ensure that that’s defined because we want to look more at the revolutionary aspects. So, they’re leading an impact inside the market. And those are the people that their clients, the clients they get, essentially decide what the business creates and turns into—figuring out who is the best client we should be going for. And then what we help them do, once we’ve helped them figure that out, is find those that are in the market right now and how to stand out versus all the other competition that’s trying to go after those ideal clients. So, we do that through LinkedIn. ” – NATE
“When I was younger, I did door knocking. I knocked on a lot of doors for door-to-door sales and cold calling. In both of those, I noticed that if I knew something about the person I was talking to, there was a way higher chance that they would listen to me because of a genuine relationship. But if I was just approaching them and trying to give them, you know: “Hey, here’s the offer,” then no matter how good the offer was, it never really hit because it was like approaching someone in a dating scenario and being like, the first thing you say is like: “Hey, here’s all the reasons that we should get married.” It doesn’t matter if you’re a good fit or not; that initial building of it must happen. Then we went, okay, how do we help people do this at scale without having to door knock or cold call? That’s where we ended up on LinkedIn because we can add a connection note, and we can reach out directly to their ideal clients and make sure their profile is optimized, make sure their messaging converts highTop of FormBottom of Form.” – NATE
“I think that you’re doing, everybody’s doing acquisition. They’re trying to get new clients, but they need to take a step back and look at and evaluate their current clients and the clients that are getting to see like: “What’s the actual impact that you can act strategically versus reactively?”. Whether you’re on LinkedIn or doing, you know, Facebook or whatever clients you get are, are super important. So before going out there and wanting to be like, Hey, I just need to get clients focused on getting like, okay, who’s the right client? What’s the impact they’re going to have on my culture? All of this, and then when you have that down, everything that you do from there is going to be much more relevant to them, and most likely, even your energy about who you’re going after is going to change in other areas of your business.” – NATE
Connect with Nate Morse:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Nate Morse, a LinkedIn marketer and sales strategist and the founder of the Apex conversion system with valuable offerings who struggle to find and attract the right clients. They have a three-phase approach that begins with a discovery phase where they identify the client’s values and target audience. Nate is also the author of the LinkedIn High Ticket Handbook, A Bridge Between You and High-Ticket Clients Using Strategies, Frameworks, and AI. So welcome to the show, Nate. Given our shared focus on lead generation, I know this is going to be an incredibly engaging conversation.
Nate Morse: Should be. Thanks for having me. [1:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, definitely. So, I know you state that your company is dedicated to helping industry leaders generate high quality leads. Basic question, how do they do that?
Nate Morse: Yeah, so when we talk about industry leaders, I want to make sure that that’s defined, because we want to look more at the revolutionary aspects. So, they’re leading an impact inside the market. And those are the people that their clients, the clients that they get, essentially decide what the business creates and what it turns into. So, figuring out who is the exact best client that we should be going for. And then what we help them do, once we’ve helped them figure that out, is find those that are in the market right now and how to stand out versus all the other competition that’s trying to go after those ideal clients. So, we do that through LinkedIn. [2:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Okay. And so how do you stand out? I mean, there’s so much noise in LinkedIn nowadays.
Nate Morse: Yeah, totally. So, when I, let’s go back a little bit. So, when I was younger, I did door knocking. I did a lot of doors knocking for door-to-door sales and cold calling. And both of those, I noticed that if I knew something about the person I was talking to, there’s a way higher chance that they were going to listen to me because there was a genuine relationship there. But if I was just approaching them and trying to give them, you know, like, hey, here’s the offer, then no matter how good the offer was, it never really hit because it was like approaching someone in a dating scenario and being like, first thing you say is like, hey, here’s all the reasons that we should get married. It doesn’t matter if you’re a good fit or not, that initial building of it must happen. Then we went, okay, how do we help people do this at scale without having to door knock, without having to cold call? That’s where we ended up on LinkedIn because we can add a connection note and we can reach out directly to their ideal clients and make sure their profile is optimized, make sure their messaging converts high. And so, we get for the last four years, between 50 and 90% of people that we’re reaching out to are responding with interest. And we’re going after big whale clients here. So, it really is the relevancy drives a lot of the urgency. [3:47]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Yeah, well how do you identify someone else’s ideal client?
Nate Morse: So, we have a process. It’s called the Better Client Blueprint. And it’s a process that we go, and we have them like rate their clients that they currently have based on different criteria. Even one of them will be like their value, seeing how much that person aligns with their values, how much they pay them, what’s their like longevity potential. So, it really must do a lot with figuring out who they are based on who they have right now and who they like, who are the ones that would give them the most leverage and the biggest impact on what they’re doing. [4:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, wow. So why is it that some businesses thrive on LinkedIn and others are lost?
Nate Morse: Yeah, so I think that from what I’ve seen over the years is that some of them are just going in and doing what everybody else is doing. And so, they really just blend into everything else. Cause even if someone’s like, hey, this is what works. And then everybody does that. Well, it’s not going to, it’s not going to work as well then. Um, I mean, really with anything, a lot of businesses just, they lack the consistency of like continuing to go and trying to stand out and things like that. So, I would say again, it’s basically just not trying to follow everybody else and trying to do something that really stands out and makes an impact on that person and I mean I feel like that has to do with looking at people as actual people and what’s going to excite them versus what do you think? Is going to I don’t know fit into some Programmatic way of converting like a lot of people do. [5:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Yeah, they say if your competition is doing it, stop. Do something different. Right? Yeah. So many talks about the power of LinkedIn, but how do we move from just being present on the platform to truly leveraging its potential for business growth? What are some of the steps?
Nate Morse: Yeah. Totally agree. Great question. Yeah, great question. So, a lot of people are on LinkedIn, and they set up their profile, for example, just like a resume, right? So, it shows like what you do. So, if someone has gone through the entire buyer’s journey and they want to work with someone like you, and then maybe they like the positioning that you have on your profile or whatever, then they might pick you out. But that’s at the end of the buyer’s journey, okay? I like to talk about… How do we compete not only on positioning, but also proximity? So when someone is, let’s say, looking at your profile, because LinkedIn loves to put your profile in, do well with SEO, so it’ll show up on Google, people are searching on LinkedIn, but how do you make it so that your profile is relevant to each stage of the buyer’s journey and the internal questions that they have to answer, because that will make it so that a larger portion of people that are visiting your profile are going to turn into leads and you’re not just waiting for them to complete the buyer’s journey on their own and then decide you. [6:47]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Well, I mean, you’re the expert, so it has to make sense. I mean, in your experience, how has harnessing like the existing data transformed the LinkedIn strategies for businesses and professionals?
Nate Morse: Yeah, no, that’s, I have a great example for that. So, I’ve had clients come in and, or let’s say, yeah, so I have clients come in and they’ll be like, hey, we want to go after this audience with this messaging. And a lot of times if you go work with someone, whether they help you with ads or whatever, that’s a lot of times a setup that they have. Well, what happens is that once you start down that journey, what happens if that messaging in that audience, what if that didn’t work? Then whose fault, is it? Right? And so, the number one, reason statistically that businesses fail is lack of market research. And so, the first step that we do is look into LinkedIn to see, okay, within this group that you want to go after, what are the segments that have the highest potential and have the pain point that you have right now, and the competition might not be, you know, you might be better positioned versus them. [7:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. But how do you find out their pain points via LinkedIn?
Nate Morse: So that you can do that through data analysis. So, we have data analysts that will go and look through like the content and different things that are on there.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, cool. So, you know, again, you’re the expert here, but what do most people overlook when trying to build genuine, lasting relationships on LinkedIn?
Nate Morse: They underestimate that initial reason that they’re reaching out. So, like if you’re just going after a group of people and then you’re sending some message that’s just based on demographics, so like who do they, what do they look like right now, where are they at, stuff like that, that messaging is not going to convert nearly as high as if you have some psychographics in there. So, if you’re researching someone and you’re finding like, maybe they engage in someone else’s content, maybe they’re hiring for a specific role, like mention something in that connection note that is going to get them to, you know, sparks and go to, you know, cold to warm. [9:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, okay. And then how long does it typically take in your experience when you start the outreach? Does it take for a LinkedIn prospect to become an appointment?
Nate Morse: That could take anywhere from a couple days to a few months, depending on what your target is. Some of the bigger companies, they have, you’re talking to someone who’s an employee of a bigger company and they have this quarterly buying process or something like that. So, you might have to fit into theirs, the bigger clients that you’re going after. But we’ve had people get calls booked within the first couple days of launching. [9:45]
Nancy Calabrese: Really? Wow. And I know you mentioned becoming a trusted guide for perfect fit clients. Can you elaborate on what that means? And how do we achieve that status?
Nate Morse: Great question. So, a lot of people when they’re just competing on positioning, it’s like: “Hey, look at us, look at how great we are, you know, choose us because of how great we are”. But I like to find the people in the buyer’s journey and then make them the hero. Kind of like, you know, we’re Yoda and they’re Luke. We’re finding them and helping them become the hero of their own journey. And a lot of times that’s, you know, having resources and different things perhaps that on your profile or offering them to them that help them through that specific stage that they’re in versus just like, look how awesome we are. [10:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. And so how do you differentiate between a transient connection and a meaningful relationship?
Nate Morse: Yeah, so leading with value, if you see where they’re at, and let’s say you offer them a resource, maybe you made, if you want to be the guide for them, you could literally just make a guide for them. But you might have some resource, something that you can give to them for free that’s going to help them get value and move along the stage, so you’re building this relationship where they’re going to open up to you and you guys can actually go through the buyer’s journey together. [11:05]
Nancy Calabrese: Cool, cool. How did you get involved in this?
Nate Morse: So, before LinkedIn, I was actually in the RV industry, and I was getting clients through LinkedIn and then COVID hit and then the RV industry got all wonky. But I was doing this as a side business, but when all that happened, then I went full time in on it because this is the thing I like to do. And these are, the biggest part was the clients. Who are the clients that you want around you? So, the context that you live in. [11:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. And you know, I love stories. So, can you share a story where a shift in LinkedIn strategy led to predictable success and increased revenue?
Nate Morse: Yeah. So, in the beginning, when I was doing this, I was literally just using whatever was out there. So, I was like trying to see, okay, I’m LinkedIn. What messages are people using? What strategies are they doing? But everything was just volume-based, and it was like quantity was the strategy. And I was not a fan. And so, I took a step back to what I had been doing in cold calling and door knocking and like just online sales and it was me remembering going between, because I was a car salesman at one point and everyone who came on the lot, I could take down their wants and needs and help them through the journey. But I noticed that online the journey was totally different. Uh, you know, like 1% of a website’s traffic converts into any type of lead. Um, there’s a lot of information out there, but there’s not much for helping them, at these different stages. And so, basically took a step back and then just, I know you’re not supposed to recreate the wheel, but I basically tried to do that and that almost quadrupled our results from everything. That was about four years ago. But yeah, I was just reminiscing on, okay, what’s the online world, which is great for information, then the in, not the inline, but the in-person world. And that’s mostly built about relationships. And so just recognizing, okay, these people online, they might not have tried the in-person route before and then tried to do it. So that was it was really just that being confused of like, why is it so much different online versus in person? [13:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. You know, people have commented, not recently, but in, I’d say in the past year, they’ve complained that LinkedIn is becoming like Facebook. What are your thoughts on that?
Nate Morse: You say in the past couple years? Yeah, so, well, when you say they’re complaining, like, you want to elaborate a little bit more.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Yeah, they’re putting personal stories on LinkedIn. I haven’t seen it as much lately, but in the past couple of years, people are posting about their kid, their cat, their dog. What are your thoughts on that?
Nate Morse: Yeah, they’re pushing it to become more of a social media platform versus before it was just for hiring mostly. They have celebrities going on there and pushing this aspect. And I think it should be, there’s a lot of people moving from Facebook to it because there’s a lot less crap on there. But yeah, I guess that may just be early people doing it. And if there’s someone that’s posting and you don’t like their stories or whatever, then just, I don’t know, remove them. [14:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Yeah. Remove them, yeah, delete them. You know, for me and our listeners who feel that we’re struggling to make an impact on LinkedIn, what are some of the common pitfalls we might be falling into?
Nate Morse: Yeah, so if someone is wondering like, hey, what’s the, you know, what’s the low hanging fruit? That’s going to be your profile. So, make sure that it doesn’t read like a brochure, right? So just information like I was talking about earlier. You know, for example, in that bio area, some people say like, hey, you know, I’m this, I do that. And that’s, you know, what people see. But when you’re showing up in search results or maybe you’re engaging in someone’s content or you might be posting yourself, that little area right there is always seen. So… put some type of call to action there to show that you have a resource for someone that’s in the buyer’s journey. That would be, that’s the easiest low hanging fruit, but just expand upon that on your profile and go: Okay, if someone were to, you know, go here and they have, you know, this question or they’re at this stage of the buyer’s journey, is there something that allows them to connect with me and actually start that relationship so that I can nurture them through the journey? But yeah, it’s just optimizing the profile and making sure that the people that are visiting it today, maybe even right now, there’s something relevant enough for them to start a relationship with you. [15:40]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I guess, you know, what I keep thinking about is how to identify those people on LinkedIn that are in the buying mode. I just I’m not wrapping my head around it.
Nate Morse: Okay, yeah, so let’s say that an easy example, because it’s psychographic, so it’s something that they’re doing right now. So, let’s say for example, you sell a service, and you have a competitor and there’s people engaging with their content and they’re commenting, and you can see those comments. If you can find people within there that are a good fit, they’re literally putting their hand up in the buyer’s journey right now, or they might be engaging in different posts, or they might be hiring for a role. You might do social media management and they might be looking for a role for a social media manager. [16:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Mm-hmm. And are you a big believer in sales navigator?
Nate Morse: Um, I don’t use it that much. I think most of the results are crap, but depending on the scenario, um, it’s good. Like I still have it. Uh, biggest reason for that though, is that LinkedIn made a thing where you get like extra, you can send more connection requests and I just believe that, you know, content, whatever, whatever you’re doing, if you’re paying the platform, it’s going to, you’re going to be in favor for them. [16:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Okay. Yeah. How many requests can you send out a day?
Nate Morse: a day, so it’s more of a week, it’s about 100 to 200 a week.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. And does that vary or is that stagnant?
Nate Morse: Yeah, it’s stagnant. It’s stagnant. In 21, they limited it because people were sending like 200 to 500 connection requests a day, sometimes even more. But in 2021, they put out these limits that were that were stopping people from sending more than that, which was good for me, honestly, because that’s all we were sending because it’s much harder to go this route. But again, we’re not playing the quantity game. But yeah, that was a that was a good thing. [17:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Well. Yeah. Cool. So, I can’t believe we’re like up in time. I could go on and on, but what is one takeaway you’d like to leave the audience with?
Nate Morse: Yeah, I think that you’re doing, everybody’s doing acquisition. They’re trying to get new clients, but they need to take a step back and look at and evaluate their current clients and the clients that are getting to see like, what’s the actual impacts that you can act strategically versus reactively. Whether you’re on LinkedIn, you’re doing, you know, Facebook or whatever. Um, the clients that you get are, are super important. So before just going out there and wanting to be like, hey, I just, I just need to get clients really focused on getting like, okay, who’s the right client? What’s the impact they’re going to have on my culture? All of this, and then when you have that down, everything that you do from there is going to be much more relevant to them, and most likely, even your energy about who you’re going after is going to change in other areas of your business. [18:35]
Nancy Calabrese: I totally agree with you on that. How can my audience find you?
Nate Morse: So, you can find me on social media, Nate Morse. You can also go to natemorse.com. And if you go to.com slash gift, I have free resources there as well, like the book you mentioned earlier. There’s some other worksheets and things like that. [18:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. Take advantage of that, everyone. Nate, thank you so much for spending time with us today. Just say that website again, natemorris.com.
Nate Morse: Yep. Nate Morse. N-A-T-E-M-O-R-S-E dot com slash gift. G-I-F-T.
Nancy Calabrese: OK, I don’t know about you all out there, but I’m going there as soon as we get off. Nate, you were wonderful. I encourage everyone to take advantage of Nate’s generous offer. Reach out to him and make it a great sales day. [19:31]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jan 30, 2024 | Podcast
About Malina Poshtova Delamere: Malina Poshtova Delamere is the Founder and President of Vida Rose Coaching Solutions, a leading executive coaching practice for women whose business, career, and life are in growth mode. Trained and certified by the Center for Executive Coaching and the Fowler International Academy of Professional Coaching, Malina is a Certified Executive Coach, Certified Professional Coach, and Certified Disaster Recovery Coach. She is a Fellow Member of the Institute of Coaching at McLean Hospital/Harvard Medical School and a member of the International Coaching Federation (ICF). A former Fulbright Scholar, Malina holds Master of Arts degrees from New York University (Journalism) and St. Kliment Ohridsky University of Sofia, Bulgaria (English Philology). Malina’s coaching practice helps people – leaders, entrepreneurs, team builders – to achieve goals, accelerate growth, solve problems, move forward, and drive change.Malina is a lifelong learner. She is fluent in English, Bulgarian, and Russian and nearly fluent in French. In 2019, Malina learned to sail; Vida Rose is the name of her yacht. Sailing has taught Malina much about leadership, teamwork, trust, resilience, and creative problem-solving. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Malina.
In this episode, Nancy and Malina discuss the following:
- Malina’s position in coaching primarily women
- The difference in coaching a woman versus a man
- Why Adventure Makes People Better Leaders
- Malina’s belief that opportunities often come in disguise
- Success is an attitude
- How sailing and the sales world are connected
Key Takeaways:
- Women tend to be more creative but slightly hindered by limiting beliefs.
- You’re not just a woman leader; you’re a leader! Period!
- You never know where your next opportunity is going to come from.
- You can overcome your biggest fears with the right team in the right circumstances.
- When you meet someone, listening to their story and looking for connecting points is important.
“ My dream job is to coach women. And here’s why. Obviously, as a woman myself, I have been there. I have experienced the challenges of professional women, be they business owners, be they on the corporate career track, or entrepreneurs; I’ve been there, I’ve done it, I’ve felt it, I’ve learned a lot of lessons that I love to share with my clients to help them succeed. As a woman, I am deeply invested in women’s success. And I’ve also had a lot of practice in my 20 years of corporate experience and corporate leadership experience. I coached a lot of men. So I also have the other side’s view, if you will. And that is a very helpful perspective.” – MALINA
“Growth mode is my way of saying you are ambitious, you have goals, and perhaps you need a little bit of help to get you there, or you need an accountability partner or a sounding board to check your decisions. But you are a woman on a mission who wants to succeed, whether in private practice, a corporate career, or as a business owner, and you have very specific goals. At least I can help you clarify and get those goals. So it’s not just I want to start a business and grow it; it’s more you know I want to start it within the next three, six, 12, 18 months. My goal is to achieve X in my first year and Y in the second year. X and Y could be monetary targets, revenue targets, the size of your team, and how many employees you want to have. I wanna grow my business to where I get to sell it to a larger corporation Top of FormBottom of Form.” – MALINA
“My unique idea is that adventure makes people better leaders. When you put someone very comfortably and safely out of their comfort zone. For example, I own a small yacht and take my clients sailing. It’s not about the sailing. It’s about being out on the water, making fast decisions, being aware of the situation, being in a small space with other people, and learning how to communicate with them clearly and impactfully set a strategy, for example, going back to the sailing. Depending on which way the wind blows, it may take you a longer time to get to your destination or a longer time to get back. And it would help if you kept that in mind when planning. Where are you going? Do you have enough time to get there? Do you have enough time to get back? What if changes or the current? What if there’s other shipping traffic all around you? On my boat, which is fantastic, I have two helms and two wheels to drive the boat side by side. So, I like to put clients on one side. It’s perfectly safe because a qualified captain is holding the other wheel or is standing by at the other wheel. But you put someone who wants to be a leader on a boat with six other people and tell them, hey, you’ve never driven a boat before; six other people’s lives depend on you, drive. Yes, exactly. It’s a very safe and controlled environment. But on the other hand, it puts you out of your comfort zone, and it challenges you to make fast decisions, to look all around, to be aware of what’s going on.” – MALINA
Connect with Malina Poshtova Delamere:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with a human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Malina Poshtova Delamere, an executive coach, business consultant, and high-performing team facilitator. She is the founder and president of Vita Rose Coaching Solutions, a leading executive coaching practice for women whose business, career, and life are in growth mode. Malina has over 20 years of business leadership and helps women leaders, entrepreneurs, and teen builders communicate confidently, build their brands, and confidently embrace their leadership style. Her clients value her as a trusted advisor and sounding board who helps them gain clarity, overcome limitations, and make sound business decisions. I am so happy to have you on the show today, Malina! Welcome!
Malina Poshtova Delamere: Thank you, Nancy. It is such a pleasure to be here. [1:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, my goodness. So, the first thing that jumps out to me is why do you only coach women?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: I do not only coach women, but I coach primarily women. And my dream job is to coach women. And here’s why. Obviously, as a woman myself, I have been there, I have experienced the challenges of professional women, be they business owners, be they on the corporate career track, be they, entrepreneurs, I’ve been there, I’ve done it, I’ve felt it, I’ve learned a lot of lessons that I love to share with my clients to help them succeed. As a woman, I am deeply invested in the success of women. And I’ve also had a lot of practice in my 20 years of corporate experience, corporate leadership experience. I coached a lot of men. So, I also have the view of the other side, if you will. And that is a very helpful perspective. [2:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Sure. Is it different coaching a woman versus a man?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: It is. Women tend to be more creative. They tend to be also a little bit more hindered by limiting beliefs. It is a well-known statistic that, for example, when applying for a job, especially one that is a bit of a stretch assignment. Men will apply for that job with 60 to 65 percent of the qualifications if they feel like they meet 60 to 65 percent of the requirements, they feel they’re qualified, and they will apply for these jobs. Women, on the other hand, need to have 90 to 95 percent of the qualifications and need to feel that they have those qualifications before they dare to apply. And so, it’s very different when it comes to confidence when it comes to overcoming objections, a completely different ballgame. [3:33]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, you know, that surprises me. I just don’t get it. Why should it be different?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: Um, you, you know, you tell me, it’s kind of funny. I consider myself a business leader. I also consider myself a sailor and that’s a whole other side to my story, which I hope we’ll touch upon. But you know, every time I work with someone, or I qualify myself as something, there’s always this woman, a business leader, woman sailor woman journalist, woman executive. And it shouldn’t have to be this way. So hopefully my work does a little bit of a contribution to, you know, if you’re an executive, you’re an executive. If you’re good at your job, you’re good at your job. You’re not just the woman leader, you’re a leader period. [4:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So, you said that you like to work with women in growth mode. What do you mean by growth mode?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: Growth mode is my way of saying you are ambitious, you have goals, and perhaps you need a little bit of help to get you there, or you need an accountability partner, or you need a sounding board to check your decisions. But you are a woman on a mission who wants to succeed, whether it is in private practice or a corporate career or as a business owner and you have very specific goals or at least I can help you clarify and get those goals. So, it’s not just I want to start a business and grow my business, it’s more you know I want to start this business within the next three, six, 12, 18 months. My goal is in my first year to achieve X, in the second year to achieve Y. And X and Y could be monetary targets, revenue targets, the size of your team, how many employees you want to have, could be, I want to grow my business to where I get to sell it to a larger corporation. [5:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Wow. Share with us the unique idea that is different and sets you apart as a business coach.
Malina Poshtova Delamere: My unique idea is that adventure makes people better leaders. When you put someone very comfortably and safely out of their comfort zone. For example, I own a small yacht and I take my clients sailing. It’s not about the sailing. It’s about being out on the water, making fast decisions, being aware of the situation, being in a small space with other people, and learning how to communicate with them, impactfully to set a strategy, for example, going back to the sailing. It is, depending on which way the wind blows, it may take you a longer time to get to your destination or a longer time to get back. And you need to keep that in mind when you’re planning, you’re, where are you going? Do you have enough time to get there? Do you have enough time to get back? What if changes or the current, what if there’s other shipping traffic all around you? On my boat, which is fantastic, I have two helms, and two wheels to drive the boat side by side. So, I like to put clients on one side. It’s perfectly safe because a qualified captain is holding the other wheel or is standing by at the other wheel. But you put someone who wants to be a leader on a boat with six other people and tell them, hey, you’ve never driven a boat before, six other people’s lives depend on you. [7:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, drive safely, right?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: Yes, exactly. It’s a very safe and controlled environment. But on the other hand, it puts you out of your comfort zone and it challenges you to make fast decisions, to look all around, to be aware of what’s going on. Who’s doing what? Are they safe? Is everybody wearing their life vest or whatever the case may be? It’s a fantastic way, adventure is a fantastic way to build leadership skills and especially who can be more timid. [8:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Well, you know, I’ve read, I don’t know if I saw this on your website or when we spoke earlier, you state that life is an adventure and opportunities often come in disguise. What do you mean by that? We know life is an adventure, but what about the opportunities?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: You never know where your next opportunity is going to come from. And it could come from in the form of meeting someone, a business partner, for example, as it happened to me, on a vacation. I do retreats for women all over the world. And I met my business partner while I was on a retreat in South Africa a few years ago. And together now, back then, I was of eight of us from different corners of the world, met in Cape Town and proceeded to have this fantastic two weeks together. I was the only person in that group with a corporate job. And therefore, the only one who at the end of the two weeks had to rush back and be back in the office on Monday morning. Everyone else? Decided they loved it so much. They stayed, they explored different corners of the continent and so forth. But through this, I kept in touch with some of them. And I certainly kept in touch with the leader who, you know, is now a business partner of mine. And we hadn’t spoken to each other for several years. Here I am now with my own executive coaching practice. I practice what I coach. I go on adventures myself. [9:54]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah.
Malina Poshtova Delamere: And I value meeting people. It’s important when you meet someone to listen to their story and look for connecting points. And that’s where these opportunities come in this guy, someone that you think you have absolutely nothing in common with turns out, you know, five years down the line, your business partners. [10:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, I love that you also state success is an attitude. I think that’s so true. Why is it true?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: It is because if you believe that you can succeed, there is really nothing that can stop you. And that is the attitude. Will there be pitfalls along the way? Absolutely. You may need to course correct. Again, my sailing metaphors come here. It’s just your sails to the wind. It doesn’t, it’s not like you sometimes you must take a zigzag line to achieve your goal. But if you have that attitude that I am here today. I have this goal that I want to achieve with the right attitude, you can get there. It may take a while, take a few detours, or you may even discover along the way that your initial goal is ultimately not your final destination. And that’s okay. [11:10]
Nancy Calabrese: It’s all mindset, all mindsets. They, you know, for many years I’ve been coach, you get rid of the head trash. And if you approach things optimistically and you do the right activities, the rest will come, right? Yeah. All right, we need to talk about your sailing story, please. Let the world know.
Malina Poshtova Delamere: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. All right, we need to talk about your sailing story, please. Let the world know. Why sailing? How’d you get there?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: Um, that is a fun story. That absolutely is a fun story. So, sailing has been a lifelong dream of mine, a childhood dream of mine. You know, other kids may dream of being astronauts and going to the moon or Mars these days for me. It was sailing, crossing oceans, exploring the world. Uh, but I never lived anywhere near water. I never had an opportunity to sail. And I, you know, once I was an adult and career woman and a mother and a family woman, it kind of became more and more remote of a dream. Other things took priority. Until one day, my son was 12 years old. He got invited to sailing camp. And watching him learn to sail, he invited me to sail in his little boat with him. At the end of camp, I had an opportunity to be sailed by my 12-year-old kid. That inspired me to investigate it again and to find out that yes, there are classes that you can sign up for. You can learn to sail at any point in life. And as I was taking my first sailing class, I also discovered this race around the world takes about a year for amateur sailors for people like me, people with very little or no sailing experience. They take you; they train you, and then you can do either one leg, or you can go several legs or around complete the full circumnavigation. I signed up for it at the drop of a hat. And what I learned, again, going back to opportunities come in this guise, this was about five years ago, the year before COVID. So, you know, everything’s happening with a little bit of a delay and a pandemic thrown in the middle. What I discovered is that when they take you into those trains, they throw you into this massive 70-foot stripped-down racing yacht, very little comfort, and a group of, you know, 10 to 15 mostly middle-aged adults’ people who have achieved success in their lives and are now looking for this extra adventure. Big egos, a lot of them are leaders in their businesses, in their industries. And within a week, living in significant discomfort, there are no luxuries on these boats. You form a team, and the leaders emerge, and the team players emerge and the, you know, non-collaborators emerge in the process. And it’s an incredible experience. So, as I was training for this race, the idea occurred to me, hey, I am buying a boat. I now feel five years after I learned to sail, I’m buying a boat, a brand-new boat, and this has been a leadership experience of my own. I will take this concept and apply it to my clients. And use that to use sailing as a metaphor for trust building, strategic thinking, impactful, clear, very clear communication. And yeah, my opportunity is guys. [15:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Were you frightened at all during that time? Yeah.
Malina Poshtova Delamere: Many times, absolutely many times, but I will tell you with the right team in the right circumstances, you can overcome your biggest fears. I have had a lifelong fear of heights. Absolutely, I have a fear of heights. I freeze. I just completely freeze. With the encouragement, this summer with this team.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, me too. Yeah.
Malina Poshtova Delamere: on this roof that I was in, I went up the mast, you know, held by two basically ropes in a little harness. They hoisted me up and I didn’t dare go all the way up. Maybe next time I will. But even just going up about a third of the way is something that I never would have done before. And that’s the sort of attitude and mindset and…
Nancy Calabrese: Great. Oh my goodness.
Malina Poshtova Delamere: desire for success and ability to overcome fears that I try to help my clients with. [16:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, that’s amazing, but I got to tell you, I can’t even go on adult rides in an amusement park, okay? And it brings me back to, I was in the kiddie section on a carousel, and we were at the top and I was like bone white. So, unlike you, I don’t ever have to get over that fear. That’s it, I’m just not going to do heights anymore. So funny.
Malina Poshtova Delamere: I’m going to go ahead and close the video. Yep, and I was there myself, but you know, I decided, you know what, this is one thing I need to conquer, especially having my own boat. Sometimes things happen out at sea, you must do it. And I wanted to see what it’s like and in a safe environment surrounded by people who are supportive, who know what they’re doing. It was easy. Now I regret not going any higher. I look back and I say, hey, I should have just paused to regroup myself and tell them keep going. [17:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Great. So, you’ll do it next time.
Malina Poshtova Delamere: I sure hope so. I hope to have the opportunity or create the opportunity for myself.
Nancy Calabrese: Yes, you will. No, you will. Not sure, you will. Last couple of questions. Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Malina Poshtova Delamere: Huh, that’s a very, very good question. Something that’s true that nobody, almost nobody agrees with me on. It’s not that they don’t agree, but I think in the world today, in the discourse today, common sense is not very common. We get wrapped up around big ideas or big buzzwords, we get wrapped up in taking sides or deciding that there’s only one way that something can be done. And common sense is rare. So yeah, I don’t know that people necessarily, nobody would disagree that common sense is valuable. And yet I feel that a lot of people today It is lost to them. [18:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, I think that’s a great observation. I’ve never thought of it that way. Finally, what is one takeaway you’d like to leave the audience with?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: Believe in yourself. Dare to be different.
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. Dare to be different. Everybody listens to that. Dare to be different. How can my people find you?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: They can certainly find me on LinkedIn. They can find me on my website, which is www.vidarose.com. Vida Rose, by the way, is the name of my boat. You can also find me on YouTube. If you do a search on Malina and Vida Rose, the makers of my boat had so much fun selling the boat to me and the whole journey was so fantastic. Another opportunity, I made friends for life in the process, and they did a video, here I am in midlife, finding myself sort of the star of a commercial for a boat, something I never could have imagined. [19:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Listen, I think if nothing else, get in touch with this wonderful lady. You might be able to go sailing with her. Who knows where, right?
Malina Poshtova Delamere: I know where, sailing to success. That’s exactly where I will take you. I can’t tell you what body of water we’ll be on, but I will definitely take you sailing to success. [20:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, I love it. Thank you so much for being on the show and for sharing your story. You’re very inspiring. And I really encourage everyone out there to say hello to Malina. Your story is really heartwarming. So, I hope you’ll come back to the show sometime.
Malina Poshtova Delamere: Thanks, Nancy. It was a pleasure to be here today and I’d love to be back sometime. Bigger and better, right? Always.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you come back when you get your next boat. How’s that? Bigger and better. All right, everyone, make it a great sales day and we’ll see you next time. [20:56]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jan 26, 2024 | Podcast
About Nicolas Toper: Nicolas Toper is the Co-founder at Inboxbooster. His mission is to help email senders achieve better deliverability and avoid spam filters. With over 15 years of experience in web development, email technology, and cloud computing, he is passionate about creating innovative and scalable solutions for online communication. Before launching Inboxbooster, Nicolas founded and led CritSend, the first SMTP relay service that guaranteed email success. He also invented Pilo, a renewable energy battery that recharges when shaken. Nicolas holds multiple patents and certifications in computer science, and he graduated from Y Combinator and the Conservatoire National des Arts et Métiers. Fluent in French, German, and English, he enjoys sharing his insights and learnings in his newsletter. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Nicolas.
In this episode, Nancy and Nicolas discuss the following:
- Nicolas’ story of getting into this business
- Practical tips for email senders to achieve better deliverability and avoid spam filters
- How to avoid getting important emails to spam
- Gmail and Outlook practical insights
- How long does it take to correct spam issues?
- Why do emails from the same sender intermittently shift between my inbox and spam folder?
Key Takeaways:
- Ten years ago, sending emails was straightforward with clear rules, but today, it’s a complex and unclear landscape, creating a significant challenge for email senders.
- Outlook wants your domain to have a good history, whereas Gmail doesn’t care about the IP and the domain, but they care about your users’ behavior.
- If you’re doing cold emailing, you need to test your email on InboxBooster or another way once a week to ensure you don’t have any problems.
“ So, you have a free tool on our system, the InboxBooster, that tells you how to, analyzes your little list, and tells you where you’re emailing. Because if you’re emailing just on Gmail, it’s not the same thing as if you’re emailing on the form of two Fortune 500 companies, which is not the same thing if you’re emailing, so there is kind of because usually a lot of SMBs are using Outlook. Some other kinds of startups, lots of startups, are using Google Workspace. So, you really, the first step is really to investigate that. And until you know that it’s kind of, you will not be able to sound efficiently. ” – NICOLAS
“Email has become a bit of a puzzle lately, and let me break it down for you. A decade ago, sending emails was a breeze—clear rules, automated stuff, and personal messages. Fast forward to today, and the line between human and machine-generated emails is blurred, thanks to outreach tools like AdRage and Apollo. Cold emails, though less annoying than cold calls, face skepticism, especially from Google, which prefers ads. Now, onto a fixer-upper story about Y Combinator: despite its strong brand, it battled spam on Gmail. Why? They imported a MailChimp template, and some pruning oversight led them back to the promotion tab. We sorted it out, and they saw a 35% click boost. The lesson? Fixing email glitches is like solving a puzzle, sometimes iterative but worthwhile.” – NICOLAS
“Sometimes we have customers sending probably more than a couple of thousands of emails per day on cold average, and it’s working very well. So, it depends on what you’re selling. The key elements are as follows: First, you need to know who you sell to if you do cold average. You need to know: “OK, So this is my ICP,” and know those people will sell. And then what I’m saying usually is if you don’t know who your ICP is, you need to experiment until you figure it out, but you shouldn’t sell a lot of emails to be very careful. In deliverability, once you know who you’re selling to, you can sell a lot. And the second thing is sometimes because you care about who you’re selling to, so basically, what’s your revenue? There is another side to it, and I mentioned it: engagement. So, you want one unsubscription link. One clicks the unsubscription link, now it will be a requirement for Google. And the second thing you want is to be between 0.5 and 1.5 of the unsubscription rate. If you do that, you’re fine. This means that you have found a Via Negativa if that makes sense, your ICP. If you want people to unsubscribe a little bit because it’s a little bit trying to sell them some stuff and some are not going to be interested, then that’s fine, but you don’t want too many of them not to be interested because if you’re there, this means they don’t care, and you’re not emailing the right people.” – NICOLAS
Connect with Nicolas Toper:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Nicolas Toper, the CEO and co-founder of Inbox Booster, a platform that uses AI to ensure emails don’t end up in spam promotions on Gmail, Outlook, and Yahoo. The platform serves over 2,000 clients, including Y, Combinator, Zango, and Wisby, and has recently been featured in several articles, including Forbes, FIM, SMEs, and BusinessMall. Nicholas has a Master of Science in Computer Science and has been awarded four patents computer, compiler, optimization, and email, deliverability. Boy, that’s a mouthful, Nicholas. Welcome to the show!
Nicolas Toper: Thank you, thank you. [1:13]
Nancy Calabrese: I guess my first question is, how did you get involved in this business? And what’s the trick?
Nicolas Toper: So, first there is no trick and the second answer is it kind of happened randomly. I was studying and working at the same time and the people I was working with, the company I was working with, started to have email trouble and actually the teacher at my school was part of the team who built AOL’s fan feature so I kind of got some cheat codes here and that’s how I got super good person in my new company because I knew how these things worked just because I had the right connection and so that’s kind of how I got started and then I got real so it was initially just totally random and opportunistic and then I built a business in that space I sold it I worked in compilers afterwards, and then I also had my children, so I stopped working for a couple of years. And after moving to the US, I went back to it, mostly because the ecosystem has changed a lot, I feel, and not for the better. So, my point being that 10 years ago, it was very, it was straightforward to send emails and the rules were kind of simple. Now it’s basically a mess, as everybody knows, but besides being a mess, it’s very unclear. So, nobody really knows what’s working. [2:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Nicolas Toper: And a lot of people are selling like snake, all type of, oh, do this and that and it should work. But on top of that, the kind of playing film is very uneven. So, for instance, we’ve lost a customer recently because they raised a lot of funding and they had someone at Google at their board. So, Google told them that they wouldn’t be in spam. So, they donated us. So basically, if you know the right person or spend the right amount of money, then you will have certain advantages, and I just feel that’s wrong, and that’s also a good business opportunity. [3:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So, you are on a mission to help email senders achieve better deliverability and avoid spam filters. Give us some practical tips. How do we do that?
Nicolas Toper: So, first, the way to do that is actually… So yeah, as you mentioned, I’m on a mission, but this mission is mostly to explain how this thing works because the real problem you have right now is when you’re in spam, you have no clue why. And that’s kind of the problem because what we find out is if you’re in spam, and we explain that to people, in 90% of the time, they’ll do the right thing, and they fix their problem which is good for everybody because usually it’s because they’re sending better emails. That’s what usually that means. And so, the receipts are happier. The customer is happier because he’s selling more and it’s easily it’s more it’s easier. So, everybody’s kind of its kind of good for everybody. And there is 10 percent of the cases where they expect a magic trick. And so now, after I’ve contextualized this answer a little bit, the way to reach inbox, the first is deep. So, the first question is, who are you selling to? So where are you emailing to? So, you have a free tool on our system, the inbox booster that tells you how to, that will analyze your little list and will tell you where you’re emailing to. Because if you’re emailing just on Gmail, it’s not the same thing as if you’re emailing on the form of two Fortune 500 companies, which is not the same thing if you’re emailing, so there is kind of, because usually a lot of SMBs are using Outlook. Some other kind of, lots of, most startups are using Google Workspace. So, you really, the first step is really to investigate that. And until you know that it’s kind of, you will not be able to sound efficiently. And you’ll see that… [5:10]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Well, why are they all different? I don’t understand.
Nicolas Toper: They all have their own inducing creases, so they all have their own quirks and way of working. So, for instance, Outlook, they really want your domain to have kind of a good history. Gmail, they don’t really care about the IP and the domain, but they really care about the behavior of your users. And other spam filters like for instance, Proofful, they’ll care about the age of the domain, they’ll care about a lot of factors. But for instance, if you look at what proof point, which is a spam filter used a lot for Fortune 500 and Gmail, they will classify spam. If you remove like the phishing email and all those things, the overlap is probably to be 25%. So that means 75% of your emails will be considered spam by let’s say one or the other spam filter, but there will be no overlap. So, you really need to be careful here. And that’s really the first step is, who are you emailing to? [6:11]
Nancy Calabrese: How long does it take to correct that?
Nicolas Toper: So usually, we can do that depending on what problems you have, but can take a day to a couple of weeks. And now once you know where you’re emailing to assuming, for instance, you’re emailing on Gmail, the first step is, are you in spam? For instance, I can use Proofpoint as an example or Gmail. But figuring it out is not that easy, because for Proofpoint, you need to buy this platform to figure it out, which we’ve done for you. And we share that information for free. Or, and even with Gmail, it’s very hard, because if you’re sending an email to your own Google Workspace account, Google is super smart that you want to receive that email, but that doesn’t mean that the rest of the world wants to receive it. So, you must use a specific way to even test if you’re in spam. So, the second step is, are you in spam? This you can do for free on Inbox Booster, and we’ll tell you if you’re in spam. Because what we do is we change, we have some test addresses that we change regularly. So, this way we know that they’re not getting trained, and they don’t learn what kind of emails our software would like to receive. So that’s kind of how we do it. And if you do it yourself, you can, but you need to create a test address almost each time you’re going to do test. So that’s roughly what we’ll do. So that’s the second step for you. So, before we can get to the inbox, the first question is which inbox? And the second question is, does it work? Now, assuming it doesn’t work, then same thing, you can use inbox booster and we’ll tell you why you’re interested, because there can be a lot of different reasons. And it starts to be very, very complicated. You really have two types of problems. The first one is it’s tied to your past behavior. So, for instance, you’ve sent emails to people you shouldn’t have, you shouldn’t have, or it has nothing to do with you, but it’s really like just a word that’s triggering the spam feature. And we’re going to tell you both and then you can fix it. If it’s a word, there is nothing to do, you just change the word and you’re there. So, for instance, we’ve had a customer, they were sending like a sign-up confirmation, and they were in spam. And that’s because they had a word tag in your HTML. So that’s the reason. And the second problem you’ll have, and for Google Develop, there’s going to be a lot of that. Well, it’s going to be a mix. It’s going to be also sometimes you’ve sent to the wrong person; you haven’t targeted well enough your email. And Google, if you’re sending to Google, they take that into account a lot. And they’ll assume that you’re not able to target. So, you’ll honor their users. So, to understand how Google works, the way they do it, they want people to like your email. To like meaning to engage with it, which means really to open the email, answer it, archive it, and search it without unsubscribing or deleting it without reading it. Or just reading it and deleting it or marking it as stuff. So that’s what you want to do, and if you’re able to do that, then there is no problem for sending on Google. On Outlook they care about similar things and proof points, they don’t really care too much about that. They care a lot more about certain keywords and all that. [9:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Why is it sometimes when I see, I’ll get from the same party the email in my inbox and other times it goes to spam? Why is that?
Nicolas Toper: Say that again, sorry.
Nancy Calabrese: So, let’s say you’re emailing me, and I’ve gotten your emails in my inbox, and then all of a sudden, your emails start going to my spam folder. Why is that?
Nicolas Toper: Oh, it’s the same principle either. It’s because I’ve sent you an email with a word or a part they don’t like at Google. Or I’m assuming you’re using Google. You’re using Google, right? [10:02]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. No, I use Outlook.
Nicolas Toper: OK, so Outlook is different. So, for Outlook, it’s because I have done so in most, so it’s almost the same thing. Sometimes because I have used a bad keyword like I’ve used, and those words changes all the time, so it’s very, so it’s kind of almost in real time. This is very uncommon with algorithms, I put a lot more with Gmail. What you will usually have been I would have sent bad emails afterwards, and because of that, I would put all my emails in spam. But Google is a little smarter, so they can just put a certain type of email. So, Google is going to do it like that so that is kind of the reason. So, it’s because of stuff I’ve done and in parallel, like for instance, I’m emailing you and at the same time I’ve sent a cold outreach campaign to people who absolutely don’t like my email and that’s what will happen. [11:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Is there a story the audience would find interesting?
Nicolas Toper: Oh, in email, yeah, of course. My story or in email deliverability story?
Nancy Calabrese: Any kind of story you want to tell.
Nicolas Toper: Ah, okay. So let me tell you the problem of email, before I talk about the story, I just want to explain why it’s starting to be a problem, because it used to be easier. The problem is 10 years ago, you really had automated emails, like newsletter, sign-ups, like a bank statement and all that. And then you had personal emails for business emails, like people that have been written by email that had been written by human. But now if you do called email, you’re probably using an outreach tool. You’re using AdRage, Apollo, whichever one of them. And those are automated emails. So, the kind of the line is blurry now. So, what’s an email being written by human? What’s an email being written by a machine? Nobody really knows. And I don’t usually want to receive an email. So that’s why this problem happened. And the reason also I think it’s important is because cold email is, first, it’s a lot less intrusive than cold calls, and two people need to sell. So, in some markets, this is how people expect to be sold for some products. So that’s kind of how you must do it. And it’s a good thing if you think about it. The main problem is Google is not very happy about that, because they would prefer you to pay some ads instead. That’s kind of the thing. And that’s the story. So, for instance, we fixed, you mentioned, a white combinator. So white combinator is not a company doing average. They don’t really care about that. They’re doing marketing. And they have a very, very high brand, a very good brand. It’s very powerful. So, they don’t really have deliverability problem. But they were still in spam on Gmail. They were in promotion in spam and Gmail for the Renewsator. And the reason? That’s kind of the interesting bit is the first one is because they re-imported their MailChimp template. So, they’ve imported, they used the MailChimp template, and they rebuilt it from that, but they kept some key elements of it. And that for Gmail was a very good predictor of promotion. So, they moved their newsletter into promotion. And the second reason they’ve had is, so we’ve did that, and it worked. But then they went back in promotion. [13:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Nicolas Toper: And the reason is because they haven’t, they never pruned their inactive users. In newsletter it’s important, meaning that some people haven’t opened their email in like maybe five years or clicked on anything, and they were still sounding to them. So, we fixed it and then the newsletter worked. And the information here and the story here is when I told them that, they were not very happy about the results the resolution we found were increased, their total number of click by 35%. But on top of that, what’s very interesting is this process is iterative. Like you had to fix it the first time, then you had to investigate it the second time. But after that, they had no problems. So, it kind of worked and they stopped paying us because they don’t have any problems. [14:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Well, that’s not a good thing, is it?
Nicolas Toper: For us it is because it’s just a way of working with customers. We know that some customers will stay forever or a long time because it’s going to be a recurring problem. Most people don’t call Dimmers, usually. And for some others it’s just going to be like a one-time thing because they will not have any problems afterwards. And we can tell ahead because usually it’s email for you, business critical. Like will you be dead if your mail doesn’t work as a company or as a department? And usually, if the answer is yes, we usually have good customers. If the answer is no, usually it’s just a one-time event, but for us it’s still useful and it’s important to do it. So that’s kind of because it helps explain and all that. But what’s interesting in this story is one, the iterative nature of this kind of fix to do it a couple of times until you get there. And two, the second interesting element is that once it’s fixed, you really don’t have any problems in a lot of cases. And it’s the same thing with cold average, because one question I always have, it’s how many emails can I send? I’m proud to be your question list. And the answer is as many as the spam field lets you, meaning as many as you can with good engagement. [16:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Nicolas Toper: Sometimes we have customers, they’re sending probably more than a couple of thousands of emails per day in cold average and it’s working very, very well. So, it really depends on what you’re selling. And the key elements here are, and I’m kind of going a little bit outside of the initial discussion, it’s one, you need to know who you’re selling to if you do cold average. Very, very important. Like you need to know, okay, so this is my ICP and you need to know those people are actually going to sell. And then what I’m saying usually is if you don’t know who your ICP is, you need to experiment until you figure it out, but you shouldn’t sell a lot of emails to be very, very careful. And in deliverability, usually once you know who you’re selling to, you can sell a lot. And the second thing is sometimes because you care about who you’re selling to, so basically what’s your revenue, there is another side to it, and I mentioned it, it’s engagement. So, you want one unsubscription link. One clicks unsubscription link, now it’s going to be a requirement for Google. And the second thing you want is you want to be between 0.5 and 1.5 of unsubscription rate. If you do that, you’re fine. This means that you have found a vial negativa, if that makes sense, your ICP. Because you want people to unsubscribe a little bit, because it’s a little bit trying to sell them some stuff to them and some are not going to be interested, then that’s fine, but you don’t want too many of them to not be interested because if you’re there, this means they don’t care and you’re not emailing the right people. So, you want to, yeah. [17:45]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, okay. How many emails is it safe to send out a day?
Nicolas Toper: Again, as I mentioned, there is no limit if you’re able to reach this pattern. If you’re able to reach those KPI, you can sound as many as you want.
Nancy Calabrese: Well, hey, I can’t believe we’re up with time. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Nicolas Toper: that you absolutely need to test your email. If you’re doing cold email, you need to do that on InboxBooster or do it yourself, but you need to do it once per week just to make sure you don’t have any problems. Because there is another problem, because I can talk about this subject for hours, but it’s very, very important to test your email. That’s kind of, that like really, this is kind of the stats I mentioned. And even if you don’t think you have a problem, you need to do that, you need to check where you’re emailing to, like what mail server is behind it, and two, do you have a problem? Because the thing about this kind of thing is it’s not to compound, so if you wait too long, not only you will lose sales, but you might lose your whole mailbox. So, you must be very, very careful here if you start to see a problem. It’s kind of like a leak when you have a water leak in your home. You don’t usually want to wait too long. This is the same type of thing. It’s kind of just a problem that kind of explodes if you don’t take care of it. And so, you absolutely want to check that regularly to make sure you don’t have a problem. And you can do that for free. So that’s kind of… And it’s very, very important. [19:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Cool. So how can my audience find you?
Nicolas Toper: So, they go on Inbox Booster and they can even book a meeting with me on the website. They can also test it for free if their email is in Inbox.
Nancy Calabrese: Cool, cool. You know, folks, we all live in email land. You’ve got an expert here. And I know for me, without having this discussion that Nicolas, I had no idea, no idea. So, thanks so much for being on the show. And for all of you, I strongly suggest that you reach out and you have that offer, right? You could do some free emails. Isn’t that what you said?
Nicolas Toper: Yes, that’s correct. They can test for free; they can test and again we’re happy to do that for free, there is no problem. And they will even get some diagnosis if they have a problem. And there’s no need to sign up or anything, it’s just on the homepage. [20:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. Love it. So here we go. Another fabulous conversation with an expert in what we all need to be better in. I wish you all a great sales day. And Nicholas, thanks so much for being on the show.
Nicolas Toper: Thank you. [20:32]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jan 25, 2024 | Podcast
About Joe Pallo: Joe Pallo is the Founder of Sell Nothing, a consulting company where he works with C.E.O.s, E.V.P. s, top salespeople, and sales leaders who want to grow their business by establishing emotional relationships with their clients and team members. Drawing from 35+ years of commission sales and 30,000+ sales calls, Joe Pallo is a top sales producer who first earned his hard knocks and big rewards with door-to-door selling. He’s developed proven systems and processes through which hundreds of top producers double or triple their business without investing additional time. Clients include non-profit organizations, defense contractors, financial advisors, the top mortgage broker in the United States, and an Olympic champion and flag bearer. As a coach, he focuses on understanding and implementing basic sales principles. He adds a layer of accountability while training and modeling relationship-building skills. Joe is also a creator of the E.A.R.N.I.N.G Sales System and a bestselling author of How To Sell Nothing. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Joe.
In this episode, Nancy and Joe discuss the following:
- Why the word “selling” is such a scary word for so many people
- Sell Nothing: The story under the company name
- Peculiarities of the E.A.R.N.I.N.G Sales System
- Four uncommon ways to ask for quality referrals without being a jerk
- The importance of script in sales
Key Takeaways:
- We’ve all been on the receiving end of being part of a bad sales presentation or a bad sales call.
- Referrals are given to confident people.
- Get a silver bullet on your existing referrals, freshen them up, and then leave a message in a voicemail.
- E.A.R.N.I.N.G Sales System is the essence of selling Nothing.
- Listening and then repeating back what they said – that’s the talking you should do: ask questions and repeat back.
“ It seems like we all know there are two sales that need to happen to get to the next step, or two buckets that need to be filled: the logical sale or the logical bucket, and the emotional sale or the emotional bucket. Both are important, but we all know the emotional bucket needs to happen first; that makes people decide. The logical bucket confirms the sale, and the emotional bucket makes it happen. “Sell Nothing,” the book, was written with the concept that we want our clients, my clients, to tell me what they want and why they want it. That’s the emotional sale. My role as the salesperson is to fill that logical bucket with words because I know all the logic and numbers, and I have a marketing department behind me. I’m good at making that logical sale. The emotional bucket is filled up with their words. Emotions are weird things—they’re fickle and change. They don’t make sense. We have to get them talking about what they want and why they want it. The art of selling Nothing is selling what people want and why they want it” – J.O.E.
“But that’s the value of the silver bullet. Yeah, it gets them calling back in, and it will work. It’s incredibly effective, but you must take your time and get them immediately. Right? I’ll also say something else that may help your listeners. This works well when you get a referral, but it also works well with all the referrals you’ve gotten for the past three or six months. What’s to stop you from returning to the referral and saying, “Hey, a while back, you referred me to so and so. I tried catching them, but what type of decision-maker is he? A numbers guy, is he a talker, a driver?” Right? Get a silver bullet on your existing referrals, freshen them up, yeah, and then you leave it on a message on a voicemail.” – J.O.E.
“Um, I would say it’s using scripts when you’re selling, having a talk, having scripts. Yeah, if I’m speaking in a group and I’m going to talk about scripts, I’ll always say, “Hey, just curious if there are any idiots. Can you raise your hand?” And a couple of people do because they’re idiots. But I kind of joke that the reason I ask is that I’m going to talk about using scripts, and many times, I hear people saying, “I can’t use a script because I’ll sound robotic.” And here’s my thinking on that, which people may disagree with. But we work hard to get the name; they get the phone number. Then, if we get the phone number, we must get through to the secretary. That’s a lot of work. Or we try to get the cell number; we don’t have to get him on the phone. That’s a lot of work to talk to a prospect. Right? Well, let themselves be passive and sound robotic on a live call. Right? And if that’s the case, that person may be in the wrong job. Now, if you think about it, and here’s the thing, you didn’t sound robotic when I was doing my role-play and calling Aaron. You heard me insert a chuckle. That’s intentional because that makes me focused and present on the call. You cannot be passive and insert a chuckle, you know? I’ll repeat, it says when I talk to him, I said, “Aaron, it’s Joe Pallo. I don’t want you racking your brain trying to figure out who I am. We haven’t met yet, right?” I’m chuckling right there; he hears it. Yeah, because if you say the same thing consistently, you’ll get consistent results.” – J.O.E.
Connect with Joe Pallo:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation! Today we’re speaking with Joe Pallo, Founder of Sell Nothing, a company where he trains CEOs, EVPs, and top sales professionals to build emotional relationships with clients and team members. Joe’s unique approach to sales called the Emotional Sale, focuses on leveraging emotions for sales success. Drawing from his 30,000+ personal sales calls and diverse clientele, Joe has helped hundreds of individuals and teams double their productivity. Besides sales consulting and coaching, his expertise extends to keynote speaking, sales presentations, and a Creator of the E.A.R.N.I.N.G Sales System™. And I believe a relatively newer program called Silver Bullet. Welcome to the show Joe! This is going to be a fun discussion! [1:20]
Joe Pallo: Hey Nancy, looking forward to it, and thank you for having me!
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, I’m so excited! So, you know, why is the word “selling” such a scary word for so many people?
Joe Pallo: I think it’s probably because we’ve all been on the receiving end of being part of a bad sales presentation or a bad sales call. I think we’ve all seen it, and it just says that ickiness that’s out there in sales. But I don’t believe it’s needed itself; I believe that’s the right way to sell.
Nancy Calabrese: No, I mean, I just can’t get enough of selling. So, the next question I had is, how do you keep track of 30,000 personal sales calls?
Joe Pallo: Well, the majority of those, I spent six summers—that’s how I paid my way through college—selling books door-to-door. OK, so door-to-door sales, you’re going to get that number up pretty high; you’re going to learn how to sell, or you’re going to starve one way or the other. [2:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Your company name is very clever, Sell Nothing. What prompted you to name it that?
Joe Pallo: Well, I think it’s with the understanding of all my experience in sales. It seems like we all know there are two sales that need to happen to get to the next step, or two buckets that need to be filled: the logical sale or the logical bucket, and the emotional sale or the emotional bucket. Both are important, but we all know the emotional bucket needs to happen first; that makes people decide. The logical bucket confirms the sale, and the emotional bucket makes it happen. “Sell Nothing,” the book, was written with the concept that we want our clients, my clients, to tell me what they want and why they want it. That’s the emotional sale. My role as the salesperson is to fill up that logical bucket with words because I know all the logic and numbers, and I have a marketing department behind me. I’m really good at making that logical sale. The emotional bucket is filled up with their words. Emotions are weird things—they’re fickle and change, they don’t make sense. We have to get them talking, not only about what they want but why they want it. The art of selling nothing is selling what people want and why they want it. [3:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, it really is all about them. So, first, you have to kind of uncover what it is they need and what issues they’re having, determining if we can solve their problems. Tell us a little bit about the E.A.R.N.I.N.G system that you created.
Joe Pallo: Having a sales plan is like having a battle plan. It looks really good. But when the battle starts or the sales meeting starts, take the plan and check it out the window; it doesn’t work. Okay, so “E.A.R.N.I.N.G” is an acronym, and each letter stands for part. Ideally, we want to go through it in the cycle, but it doesn’t have to be; it just keeps us on track. Okay, it’s just getting them. The “E” stands for, I just need to evaluate your current reality. I need to ask questions, my data quality. If I’m going to make an apples-to-apples comparison, I need to ask enough questions and what type of apples they have. I’ll ask apples, oranges; I still need to start out with that point. So, that’s the “E.” “A” stands for what are the advantages, what do they like about their current vendor. And I get a lot of times; I get people pushing back, saying, “Joe, I don’t want to ask that question. I’m talking them into staying with who they want to be with.” Right? I like asking that question because one, I get different results because I do things differently; that differentiates me. Two, me asking what they like about their current vendor screams confidence. Sales are given to confident people. But the biggest reason, they’re literally telling me their hot buttons. When I say, “What do you like about your current vendor?” They say, “I like his communication,” or “I like this.” Back in my mind, I’m thinking, “I’ve got to close on that in another five minutes, or five weeks, or five months, and I’m not going to know unless they tell me.” So, that’s the “A.” The “R” is revise—what do they want to change? That’s the major reason why they’re going to go forward. But I don’t lead off with that. Okay, the current reality, and then ask what they like about it. Then I must ask what they want to change. The “N” you can say no. Who else needs to be involved in the sales, right? Sometimes you can back out, sometimes you can’t. But I want to know who are the other decision-makers, right? That’s E.R.N.I. This is an important one. You need one step that you can apply tomorrow. I simply interpret back what you just said. Just say, “Hey, just for clarity, I’m going to take two minutes and just rattle off what they have. It does a lot of things because I start hearing things like what Paul—you said it better than I did. Uh, that’s why I’m on their side of the table. I have not even started selling because the biggest complaint with sales is no one listens to me. I’m just repeating back what they just said. The second “N” is nothing. What if nothing changes because I need that to give a sense of urgency. And I’ll generally ask, “Well, what else?” They’ll get a fluffy answer. So, I ask, “Well, what if nothing changes? Well, tell me more about that.” I’ll get them talking about that. And then the “G” is the gain, the pay value. I have not even started talking about my product or service yet. That’s the essence of selling nothing. We go through this process on every sales call. If it’s a longer selling second, we just repeat it. [6:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, well, I think you’re right. Repeating what you think you heard not only is it telling the prospect that you’re listening, but you may uncover some additional information when you do that. Yeah, very much so. Okay, let’s talk about four uncommon ways to ask for quality referrals without being a jerk.
Joe Pallo: Well, the first part is that we must be confident when we’re asking. I think most people are passive when they’re asking for referrals. They might say something like, “I kind of maybe like to have a referral if it’s not too much trouble. Oh, never mind. Here’s a business card.” Referrals are given to confident people. We need to have a confident ask. A better way of saying it is, when we’re on a sales call, I’ll ask my clients, “How do you want to be perceived?” Now, here, where it’s like, “I’m confident, upbeat, professional, educated, caring, trustworthy.” Okay, you got a good picture of who that person is. They say, “Yeah, that’s the person we’re asking for referrals.” What happens in sales is we go out and we give that confident, upbeat, professional presentation. But when it comes to referrals, we downshift. We’re passive when we ask for referrals. The same person who’s selling should be the same person asking for referrals. It’s a big piece. Also, when I’m asking for a referral, some people don’t want to come across the wrong way. If I were talking to you, let’s be hypothetical. You’ve been a client of mine for a couple of years. I would say, “Nancy, can I ask you a question?” You’d say, “Yeah.” I’d say, “I just want to get some feedback. We’ve been working together for a year or two. We’ve taken care of this problem, helped you out here, took care of that. What are some things you liked about working with me or my team?” I literally ask for feedback on what you liked about working with me or my team. I’ll say, “What else?” And then I just simply pivot, saying, “Nancy, who are two people who would appreciate those things?” [8:40]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it.
Joe Pallo: It’s my simplified referral ask, but they just told me why they should give me referrals and gave me a compliment. I’m in a great spot to ask for referrals. Yeah, yep. The other piece I’ll do, and I think this is really relevant nowadays when it comes to referrals. I think people are too busy, or a name and a number are not enough. Okay, I mean, we’ve all had referrals or maybe business cards have been referred to people who left a message, they’ve never called us back. So, I’ve kind of created a silver bullet, it’s what I call it a silver bullet, it’s to get through all that muck and noise out there and have that referral catch attention and call me back. The definition of a silver bullet is a bit of information that I know that an average Joe on the street doesn’t know. A bit of information that I know that an average Joe on the street doesn’t know, and I want to draft off the referee off of their relationship onto that first voicemail, onto that first phone call or that first meeting. [9:43]
Nancy Calabrese: How do you find that out?
Joe Pallo: Let’s just say if you’ve referred me to Bill Anderson, we’ll just use that name, and I’d say, “Alright, have some generic questions. How long have you known them? How big is his team? Where’s he at?” There’s some stuff that I think we do good, answer question, answer question. I think we do a pretty good job with that. Then I shift gears and say, “Just curious, what type of decision-maker is Bill? Is Bill a numbers guy, a talker, or is he a driver?” Okay, and I watch them in their face like, “I gotta think about him.” Yeah, I want you thinking about that relationship because that’s what I’m drafting off of, right? We see what type of decision-makers you see. Numbers guys, talkers, drivers. And then I’ll hit them with the one I love asking, “Just curious, what do you respect most about him? Love asking that question. I really have to think about it.” Yeah, you do. And what do you think about them? And I’ll usually, generally, I’ll even ask, “What else?” Yeah, so I’m just writing down all these silver bullets. And some examples of the identified silver bullets. Mark referred me to Aaron. Aaron used to work for him, had three people underneath them, now has 50. He’s a great guy, great family guy, progressive thinker. He’s not a meathead. Okay, that’s what the referee gave me about Aaron. Okay, when I called Aaron, I said, “Hey, Aaron, and I’m a script guy. He’s the same.” So, “Hey, Aaron, it’s Joe Pallo. We haven’t met. I don’t want you racking your brain trying to figure out who I am. Mark mentioned your name the other day. You said you’re not a meathead. 612-805-7576.” And I left. That’s it. [11:27]
Nancy Calabrese: That’s it? HAHA
Joe Pallo: 15 min later, Aaron called me back, being a good client, good friend, and he is a meathead. But that’s the value of the silver bullet. Yeah, and it gets them calling back in, and it will work. It’s incredibly effective, but you must take your time and get them right away. I’ll say something else too that may help your listeners. This works well when you get a referral, but it also works well with all the referrals you’ve gotten for the past three months or six months. What’s to stop you from going back to the referral and saying, “Hey, a while back, you referred me too so and so. I tried catching them, but just curious, what type of decision-maker is he? A numbers guy, is he a talker, a driver?” Right? Get a silver bullet on your existing referrals, freshen them up, and then you just leave it on a message on a voicemail. [12:24]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it!
Joe Pallo: One other thing that’s important: when I left that message for Aaron, I put his number in my phone because I want to have that call me back within 15 minutes. A lot of people want to jump in and give their presentation or their pitch right then. I don’t. Yeah, it’s hard to do, but I’ll just say, “Hey Aaron, thanks for calling back. I saw it was you. I wouldn’t take your call. I’m jumping on something else. Can we set up a time for next week?” I’m talking to the person. I could have had the time on my calendar to do that. We’re on the call, but I didn’t, and the reason I don’t is I don’t want to get halfway through my call, and he says, “Hey Joe, I got to jump on a plane,” and I lost all that momentum. Well, that’s one reason. The second reason it gently puts me in control of the call. It’s my show when I’m selling, and it’s your show when you’re selling, but this gently allows me to do that too, right? I’m not just a random thing. We put things out on the calendar, right out there about a week or so because I want them looking, saying, “What’s that? That’s Joe Pallo. That’s the guy who said I’m not been out there for a week,” and thinking about me before we even get to that call. But the biggest reason it allows me to be focused. In sales, I do not want to wing it. I’m going to clear my desk. I probably have a skill set where I could probably run the call, but I don’t want to do that. I want to make sure that I am in control of that space, and this allows me to budget for that. [14:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, but it also gives you time to do more research, correct? I totally am in your court. You know, I never, never take a call and jump right into a sales call. They always try to find time on the calendar and, you know, do my due diligence. But I love your recommendation about the silver bullets, that is awesome. Isn’t there a website that you have?
Joe Pallo: We can go to silverbulletreferrals.com. I’ll put in the chat silverbulletreferrals.com. Okay, download where it walks through that piece. Yeah, there are a couple of other steps on there, and I did, for the time, I didn’t go through all of them, but it’s just a process that is very duplicatable, and we get you in that system. I do not count a referral unless I have a silver bullet attached to it. [14:50]
Nancy Calabrese: What a great notion! You know, on your website, I think we’re not on the first page in bold letters. How do you exceed your most ambitious sales goals without working harder? How do you?
Joe Pallo: Well, you have to sell nothing. I say it’s, it’s until you’re comfortable selling nothing, you really can’t sell anything. And what that means is really what I sell. The whole concept is literally taking the time to have my clients tell me what they want, why they want it, and then I just sell that. Yeah, it’s a heck of a lot simpler. [15:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, tell me something you believe in that many people wouldn’t agree with you on.
Joe Pallo: I would say it’s using scripts when you’re selling, having a talk, having scripts. Yeah, if I’m speaking in a group and I’m going to talk about scripts, I’ll always kind of say, “Hey, just curious if there’s any idiots, can you raise your hand?” And a couple of people do because they’re idiots. But I kind of joke that the reason I ask that is I’m going to talk about using scripts, and a lot of times I hear people saying, “I can’t use a script because I’ll sound robotic.” And here’s my thinking on that, which people may disagree with. But we work hard to get the name, then they get the phone number. Then, if we get the phone number, we must get through the secretary. That’s a lot of work. Or we try to get the cell number, don’t have to get him on the phone. That’s a lot of work to talk to a prospect. Only idiots will let themselves be passive and sound robotic on a live call. And if that’s the case, that person may be in the wrong job. Now, if you think about it, and here’s the thing, you don’t sound robotic when I was kind of doing my role play when I was calling Aaron. You heard me insert a chuckle. [16:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah
Joe Pallo: That’s intentional because that makes me focused and present on the call. You cannot be passive and insert a chuckle, you know? I’ll repeat, it says when I talk to him, I said, “Aaron, it’s Joe Pallo. I don’t want you racking your brain trying to figure out who I am. We haven’t met yet, right?” I’m chuckling right there; he hears it. Yeah, because if you say the same thing consistently, you’re going to get consistent results. [17:06]
Nancy Calabrese: I am such a big fan of scripts, and you know, when I’ve gotten pushback from other people, you know, I remind them, look at the actors and actresses on the big screen. It all starts with the script, right? Because without a script, you would never know it. We work off scripts. But with time, it becomes internalized. You don’t have to use the exact wording; you want to make it your own. So, anybody that does not script risks losing the deal because they’re winging it.
Joe Pallo: I agree 100% because people say, “Joe, I’m not getting referrals.” I said, “Well, give me your pitch. If they say the same thing every time, I’m going to fix it. But if they say something different, heck, I don’t know what’s right, I don’t know what’s working right. But the other thing too, most people in sales are sitting there in the meetings, thinking, ‘What am I going to say next? What am I going to say next?’ That’s all they’re thinking. They’re not listening. If you know what you’re going to say, you can listen. What a huge benefit in sales, actually hearing what your client wants.” [18:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Totally! And you know, when you think about it, so you have your script in your head, and the real work comes when you shut up and you start listening to their issues, their pains. You can empathize with them and really get them to, you know, continue to talk about their pain. That’s success in sales. Hey, believe it or not, we’re up in time, Joe. Didn’t that go by fast?
Joe Pallo: Sure did. Yes.
Nancy Calabrese: Holy cow! Now, what is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Joe Pallo: Um, I would say if they wanted to apply something in sales, take a minute just to repeat back what they just said. It’s incredibly valuable and differentiates yourself from everybody else. Get away from the show up, throw up pitch that everyone does. I personally believe whoever’s talking is buying in a selling situation. If I’m talking more than you are I’m selling you and I’m buying your objections. Listening and then repeating back what they said—that’s the talking you should do, asking questions and repeat back. [19:21]
Nancy Calabrese: I totally agree. Folks, listen to this man; he knows what he’s talking about. Joe, how can my people find you?
Joe Pallo: You go to sellnothing.co, the website. Sell nothing, dot C. Couldn’t afford the ‘m’ as a Bitcoin company bought sellnothing.com, and they want like 15,000 for an ‘M’.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh my God!
Joe Pallo: It’s sellnothing.co, CEO. Okay, we’ll take it. We’ll find you. I’m sure you’re on LinkedIn as well. I’m on LinkedIn, and my book, “How to Sell Nothing: The Logical Way to Make the Emotional Sale,” is also on my website as well. [19:58]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome! All right, first, thank you so much for spending time with us today. You’re fascinating. I love your silver bullet referral approach, and I’m definitely going to look at it myself. And for everyone out there listening, take advantage of Joe’s expertise. Reach out to him, get a copy of that book, and make it an awesome sales day. See you next time. [20:24]
by Nancy Calabrese | Jan 15, 2024 | Podcast
About Ben Albert: Ben Albert is the owner of Balbert Marketing LLC. He found in marketing that he has a unique opportunity to empower business people to reach the RIGHT community, the RIGHT clients, and the RIGHT partners, who share the same beliefs and values as the clients. He is also the curator of The “Real Business Connections Network,” where he hosts five podcasts: “Rochester Business Connections,” “Learn Speak Teach,” “Ben’s Bites,” “Five Minute Fridays,” and “Real Hits.” Ben chats with everyone from executives, entrepreneurs, convicts, behavior scientists, sales trainers, wellness experts, and more. It’s his role to extract the best nibbles of wisdom from these experts so we can compress decades of wisdom into minutes for the listener. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Ben.
In this episode, Nancy and Ben discuss the following:
- The Real Business Connections Network podcasting umbrella
- Benefits of Podcasting: Building genuine connections and Reputation gain
- Importance of human-to-human connections
- Authenticity as a core value of LinkedIn’s algorithm
- Crucial importance of sharing successes, asking for testimonials, and leaving feedback in the business world
- Video Marketing as the fastest trust builder
- Importance of mindset and inner work in sales
Key Takeaways:
- We want to reach the audience where they are rather than where we are.
- It’s better to be different than just a little bit better.
- If someone helps you, leave them an endorsement, a testimonial, and a review.
- The inner work makes you a way better sales representative than any specific tactic ever could.
“Great minds think alike. You understand that in sales, in general, the best way to get a sale is from a referral. Like that’s kind of simple, common sense. And I don’t even like to call them referrals. I like nominations or recommendations. And at the end of the day, when you’re, um, creating content and sharing influence with brilliant people, it leads to reputation gain. It leads to thought leadership, which leads to people talking about you and being impressed with you because you’re adding value to their lives. What do you think that leads to? That leads to recommendations, nominations, and referrals. It’s simple.” – BEN.
“AI and tech are taking over the world in one way. But at the core, humans purchase solutions from other humans. We’re fulfilling products and services for humans, by humans, to help humans. All the tech is just facilitating that process. Really, marketing, adding value, and then making the sales process so simple for you or your team will never go away. The better you are at building those human-to-human connections, and that can be in person, but it can be through social selling. It can be through content marketing or podcasting. The better you are at building those human-to-human connections, the better art you are going to be in business. And the AI can’t replace you because there’s only one you.” – BEN.
“There’s so much going on in video at the core. People say, “I don’t have all the lights and the setup.” But if you have a phone that can take videos, you can share them. And I think the biggest reason it’s hot is that it’s such a trust builder. It shows your face, expressions, style, and personality. So, when someone gets on a call with you when someone does meet you, there’s already a rapport built because they’ve watched you, know you, and listened to you. So I think the reason video is so popular is one, it’s entertaining, but two, in a sales and marketing context, it’s the best way to build easy trust because you’re unveiling the person behind the profile, behind the phone. You’re showing an extra part of yourself.” – BEN.
Connect with Ben Albert:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Ben Albert, the owner of Balbert Marketing, a company that helps businesses save time and make money with proven marketing systems. They offer boutique marketing services that empower industry leaders to grow their brands online, including website design, landing pages, Google services, SEO, and more. Ben is also the curator of the Real Business Connections Network, where he hosts six podcasts, Rochester Business Connections, Learn, Speak, Teach, Ben’s Bites, Five Minute Fridays, Real Hits, and AB Squared C. Now, I believe marketing is one of the keys to any company’s success, so I’m excited when it comes to this topic, Ben. Welcome to the show.
Ben Albert: Nancy, I’m excited to be here with you. It, you have a great podcast. It’s an honor to spend time with you. [1:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Thank you. I know we were scheduled to do it several months ago and I don’t know what happened. We’re finally here. So, the first thing that jumps out to me is six podcasts. We got to go into that. How the heck do you juggle all of them?
Ben Albert: Yeah, I mean, you’re a sales expert. You understand that people have different personalities. They have different learning styles. They like to be taught and presented to the whole shabam in different ways. When I say six podcasts, it’s not like there’s a fishing podcast and then a business podcast and then a music podcast, they’re not all over the place. It’s all centered around the real business connections network. That’s the umbrella. And it’s all about the yin and the yang of business and personal growth. What are the tips, tricks, and tactics, but what is the person you need to be? They show up with the mindset to implement those tips. So, there’s long form, there’s short form, there’s just me giving simple monologues with simple, you know, tips and tricks. Um, then there’s conversation style. There’s a panel style. I want to reach my audience based on their learning style, but everything we do is around business and life, and those are just different segments so we can reach the audience where they are rather than where we are. [2:52]
Nancy Calabrese: All right. That’s really cool. I mean, how did you get involved in the business? What’s your journey?
Ben Albert: Yeah, I mean, I’ll give you the short version because it’s, as you can imagine, it’s one of those, how long do we have questions? But, I was a sales exec for a corporate marketing firm, COVID head, and I got let go. As you can imagine, it was a traumatic time for me and most of us. Um, and I leaned into the things that I knew. I was a Rochester, New York native born and raised. I was a huge podcast advocate. I started a music podcast in 2016. And I was an insatiable, curious learner. Now at the core, um, I, I wanted to go off on my own. I was let go. I didn’t know what to do next. So, I’m like, I’m going to start Balbert marketing. Um, and I’m going to lean into those things that I’m good at. I was able to ultimately with Rochester business connections, my first ever business podcast talk to Rochester, New York business leaders. These Rochester leaders were mentors, they became friends and peers, and let’s be transparent, they were prospects. They were business owners, and I was starting a marketing firm. So, I had a great way to network, introduce my services, make connections, and learn during a pandemic and I just happened to use podcasting to do just that. [4:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, you know, it’s funny you bring that up because I started my podcast right as the pandemic hit, thinking that I had a pivot some way. And I have gained so much information. I’ve interviewed some amazing people, including you, and greatly improved my center of influence. Have you found that to be true?
Ben Albert: Yeah. I mean, great minds think alike. You understand in sales in general, the best way to get a sale is from a referral. Like that’s kind of simple, common sense. And I don’t even like to call them referrals. I like nominations or recommendations. And at the end of the day, when you’re, um, creating content and sharing influence with brilliant people, it leads to reputation gain. It leads to thought leadership which leads to people talking about you, being impressed with you, because you’re adding value to their lives, and what do you think that leads to? That leads to recommendations, it leads to nominations, it leads to referrals. It’s simple. [5:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, I think that’s awesome. So, you know, look, marketing, social selling, content marketing is all over the place. Why are these important channels to get your word out there?
Ben Albert: Yeah, I mean, let’s go to the core and we don’t have to dive deep into AI or tech. I’m not the utmost expert on either of those, but AI and tech are taking over the world in one way. But at the core humans purchase solutions from other humans. We’re fulfilling products and services for humans, by humans to help humans. All the tech is just facilitating that process. So, conversational selling, building a relationship, social selling and putting valuable content out there, adding value well before you ask for a sale. Really marketing, adding value, and then making the sales process so simple for you or your team is never going to go away. The better you are at building those human-to-human connections, and that can be in person, but it can be through social selling. It can be through content marketing, podcasting. The better you are at building those human-to-human connections, the better art you are going to be in business. And the AI can’t replace you because there’s only one you. [6:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, I agree with that. I mean, I often say nobody’s going to replace the human connection ever, ever. Even the millennials, people accuse them of just looking at their phone and texting. No, no, no. But they still have conversations, right? They still have get-togethers. OK, I’m going to ask you a question, because I was on with my marketing rep earlier. And one of the groups that I networked with each week would publish like a newsletter. And it’s an opportunity for us to share each other’s articles on LinkedIn and other social media platforms. She said that could be a problem. And I was really surprised to have heard that. I don’t know if you’ve heard that, that LinkedIn doesn’t favor that. But by doing that, my awareness you know, visibility increased. What are your thoughts on that? [7:58]
Ben Albert: Yeah, I would need to know a little bit more. I’d like to kind of see the case example in front of me. I can tell you with total certainty, that LinkedIn’s algorithm is smart, and it doesn’t love inauthenticity. So, give you a drastic example, you post, and then you have a bunch of programmed robots that like and comment, and they never read what you said, they didn’t read the article. It’s inauthentic and it looks authentic, that’s a no-no. And if you’re in a group supporting each other, if there are 5,000 people in that group, so you post and then all the same people react at the same time, that could trigger the algorithm saying that, ah, there’s something shady going on here. All that said, if it’s a small group of peers that are authentically going on and supporting one another. That’s not really against the terms in regards. You’re just being cheerleaders for what each other does. One thing that I would be mindful of though, is if you’re in sales and they’re in underwater basket weaving or something completely unrelated to sales, it might confuse your audience if you’re spending a lot of time interacting on posts that have nothing to do with what you do. So, it is important. [9:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, that’s real.
Ben Albert: It is important to be aligned with similar industries and similarly valued people.
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. So, what is it about your unique idea that’s different and sets you apart from other marketing agencies?
Ben Albert: Yeah. I mean, here’s the thing. I’m not an anomaly. I’m not the most unique. I’m not the next, you know, I’m not the next Jeff Bezos, maybe we’ll see. You know, we all have our unique fingerprint and it’s better to be even slightly different than the same. We don’t want to be caught in the sea of sameness. I’m a podcaster. I give away hundreds of thousands and 10,000s of hours of free value. I’m giving, I’m making connections and introductions every single day. I’m posting content every single day. So even if my services are very similar or even the same thing as my competitor down the road, my audience can hear my story. My audience can hear my journey, my values, my value of education and growth, my values of family. And so again, I don’t think I’m some anomaly, Nancy. I’m just an ordinary guy figuring it out, but by sharing my journey and by adding value that differentiates me, even if the slightest bit, and at the end of the day, you know, it’s better to be different than just a little bit better. [10:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, no, I think different is the way to go. I’m often reminded if your competition is doing it, you stop and do something different. You want to stand out of the crowd, right?
Ben Albert: Absolutely, 100%.
Nancy Calabrese: So how do you leverage a network for increased influence? What are your recommendations?
Ben Albert: I mean, first and foremost, I think for whatever reason, this is a little existential, but society tells us to dim our light. You know, humility is good, modesty is good, but people are afraid to share their success. They’re afraid to share case studies. They’re afraid to ask for reviews. If you’ve helped someone, if you’ve impacted someone, ask them for that, you know, 30-second commitment to leave you a video testimonial, to leave you a review. And if you start sharing those successes, you immediately are building rapport with the people who haven’t worked with you yet, but they can see what it’s like and do the same for others. If someone helps you leave them an endorsement, leave them a testimonial, leave them a review. I think at the end of the day, business is a giver’s game. And if you can show how much you give and give more than you receive, you’re going to build a network of people who want to support you. And honestly, it just makes business more fun when you get to do that with people. [12:28]
Nancy Calabrese: It makes you feel good when you can help someone else out.
Ben Albert: Yeah, it feels great. Absolutely.
Nancy Calabrese: OK, talk about video marketing. It’s hot. Why is it so hot?
Ben Albert: Yeah. I don’t know all the psychology behind it, but I mean, it’s a, they say a picture speaks a thousand words as video speaks 500,000. There’s so much going on in video at the core. Like people are, they’re like, I don’t have all the lights and the setup. But if you have a phone and it can take videos, you have an opportunity to share videos. And I think the biggest reason why it’s hot is it’s such a trust builder. It shows your face, your expressions, it shows your style, your personality. So, when someone does get on a call with you when someone does meet you, there’s already a rapport built because they’ve watched you, they know you, they’ve listened to you. Um, so I think the reason why video is so popular is one, it’s entertaining, but two. In a sales and marketing context, it’s the best way to build easy trust because you’re unveiling the person behind the profile, behind the phone. You’re showing an extra part of yourself. [13:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Well, it’s funny and it doesn’t even have to be perfect, right? It doesn’t have to be perfect. I mean, I have a story. I was a dog watching a friend’s dog, little a Yorkie, and I was in the middle of a Zoom meeting and the Yorkie jumped up on me, onto the desk. And we had a great discussion. People don’t care.
Ben Albert: No, of course not. Not at all.
Nancy Calabrese: That’s so fun. So, tell me a fun fact about you.
Ben Albert: Oh man, I kind of touched on it. I am a music advocate. It started a music podcast in 2016. I was, I was a huge local music, art, and creative advocate, and you would see me at a music or art poetry event three or four days a week. So, the first entrepreneurial endeavor I ever had was just me on the side starting a podcast and a blog. Cause I wanted to get into places for free, Nancy. And since I became part of the press, I was able to go and interview interesting people like Beyonce’s drummer and go to music festivals and fun events. I never imagined that it would be a big slice of what I got to do as a career long-term, but all of this started from just a random passion project based around music. [15:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, you didn’t interview Paul McCartney by any chance, did you?
Ben Albert: Oh no, he is in a higher class than me, unfortunately. Maybe one day.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, not so. He’s a regular guy. One day I’m going to meet him, you know. That’s my goal in life. Tell me something true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Ben Albert: I’m confident you will. Something true that almost nobody agrees with me on. Oh my God. That’s such a powerful question. I’d like to think most people agree with me on most things. Let me think about this. It doesn’t have to be sales or marketing related. Oh my God. There are so many things. [15:48]
Nancy Calabrese: No, it could be anything.
Ben Albert: This is kind of going to be counterproductive, but, um, cause I’m all about strategy. I’m all about tactics. I’m all about frameworks. I’m all about playbooks. I think that having a good playbook is less important than having a good mindset and having the potential for curiosity and growth. You can have all the strategies and tactics in the world, but if you’re not taking care of your body, you’re not taking care of your mind, you’re not talking, taking care of your health and your family, you’re going to show up and you’re going to say that closing question. You’re going to go through that presentation. You’re going to say a script and you’re going to be completely misaligned. You might have commission breath. You might look like you don’t believe it. [16:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Commission breath? That’s the first I’ve heard. Ha ha ha.
Ben Albert: Commission breath is when someone gives a vibe that they’re just there for the sale and there might not be a conviction. There might not be alignment with the product. They’re just breathing out sales neediness. And it’s because they haven’t done the inner work or aligned with the right product to truly show up and serve. And so many people practice their next closing line or their presentation or at the end of the day, if you don’t have the mindset and you don’t do the inner work, you’re just going to expose yourself as someone who needs help themselves and how can you help someone if you need help yourself? I’m not trying to put shame or put anybody under the bus, but I think the inner work makes you a way better sales representative than any specific tactic ever could. [17:39]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, what comes to mind is, as you stated with the strategy and a framework, you must start with that, but then you must own it, right? And you must internalize it. And the more you do that, the more genuine you sound, right? And that boosts your confidence, right? And gives you the mindset to continue to have ongoing conversations. You know, sales are about communication. That’s it.
Ben Albert: 100%.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah and making it about them. Oh my gosh, we are up with time then. By the way, and I said this folk earlier, he has a great voice, doesn’t he? Ben, how can my audience find you?
Ben Albert: Well, first and foremost, this conversation would not have been possible without Nancy. So, if you’re listening to this and you haven’t subscribed to her show, you haven’t hit five stars, if you haven’t left a review or sent her a direct message, any, or all of the above do that. This wouldn’t be possible without her. And then you can find real business connections exactly as it sounds, real business connections anywhere you find this podcast and that’s a good way to go deeper with me as well. [19:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Hey, folks, take advantage. Get to know this gentleman here. He’s fabulous. And, you know, who knows, he might invite you to be on one of his podcasts that would help increase your visibility. So, Ben, a huge thank you for your time today. I hope this is perhaps the beginning of, you know, a long-term relationship and then you’ll come back and join us sometime.
Ben Albert: Hey, I’m all about it, Nancy. And it’s about the relationship for me. The conversation doesn’t end here. [19:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, you got it. Make it a great sales and marketing day, everyone. See you next time. [19:44]
