by Nancy Calabrese | Sep 1, 2023 | Podcast
About RJ Redden: RJ Redden is the Founder and human-in-charge at Black Belt Bots. Coaches hire RJ to skyrocket their engagement. RJ creates epic engagement experiences that motivate people to click that button, connect with you, and enroll like crazy. She holds two Master’s degrees at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, a Master of Public Administration and a Master of Science in Management Information Systems. She is an adjunct faculty member at the University of Nebraska at Omaha and teaches technology skills to small businesses and nonprofits in the Omaha, Nebraska, and Council Bluffs, Iowa, metropolitan area. Redden specializes in websites, administrative streamlining, and social media campaigns. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about RJ.
In this episode, Nancy and RJ discuss the following:
- The definition of epic engagement adventures.
- Standing out from the crowd in the modern marketing world.
- Ways of having personal and unique thumbprints in each marketing sphere.
- The psychology of Disneyland’s journey.
- The number of interactions needed before leads are converted into clients.
- The importance of being yourself in the sales world.
Key Takeaways:
- The problem is that we are imprinted into our brains this idea that we need to reach the masses to be heard by a few.
- Engagement First Marketing reframes the funnel concept into what that client’s journey will be like.
- If you know exactly what you provide that’s unique to this world and that they desperately need, and if you know your people, it could take one or two times reach, and they’re sold.
- If you ever get into a coaching relationship or a program that demands that you be someone else to accomplish the goals – Run! Run away!
- You must embrace and own that brilliance to shine brightly!
“ The way to stand out right now, as I see it in the marketplace, is to do your writing, make your video, make your podcast, make everything personal, have that thumbprint in there. Do not accept “Oh, I could send 800 messages that all say the same thing to 800 people on LinkedIn today. Let’s go ahead and press that button”. Do not accept mass, you know, mass marketing, mass messaging. It’s not the way to go. Make it personal. Make it personal because everybody is using these AI writers nowadays to, you know, throw out an article or two. You know, those sound like they’re produced by robots, Nancy.” – RJ
“And Disneyland thinks about every moment of the journey that you are taking, and they do their best to make it a frictionless journey. What I mean by that is, this was a couple of years ago, they developed these watches that your watch opens your hotel room door. Your watch pays for dinner. Your watch basically does everything. They give you information right when you need it so that you can use it right there so you’re not carrying the cognitive load of where they say the thing was. All that kind of stuff. That intentional journey setting makes Disneyland what it is, which is a preferred destination for many, even those without kids. That journey is what your people need to take. That journey needs to be full of interaction with you. Some of its stuff that we kind of write into a process. The quizzes, games, choose your own adventure videos, all of these types of things allow people to get to know you at their own pace. You get to know a little bit about them, and that way, by the time they’re sitting across from you. They know that they want to be part of your tribe.” – RJ
“Here’s the really important part. Here’s the part that changed everything for me. I could just be myself in the conversation because they weren’t expecting a marketing expert. They were expecting a person who’s crazy enough to wear a caping mask to an event. They weren’t expecting a normal conversation. So, I could really be myself, and connect with them.” – RJ
Connect with RJ Redden:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with RJ Redden, AI chat box strategist and CEO of Black Belt BOTS. Entrepreneurs hire RJ to skyrocket their marketing message because most are shouting into a black hole or they’re carbon copies of everyone else and they can’t get traction to save their lives. So, RJ creates epic engagement adventures that get people to click that button, connect with them, and convert like crazy. And the bottom line is RJ is on a mission to motivate a million people to change their marketing. Now I am thrilled to have RJ on the show. Can’t wait to explore her insights and experiences with all of you. This promises to be an exciting, and I think funny, enlightening conversation. Welcome to the show, RJ.
RJ: Thank you, Nancy. It is absolutely lovely to join you today. [1:25]
Nancy Calabrese: You see, we’re already started with the cackle.
RJ: That’s right.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so define epic engagement adventures.
RJ: Absolutely, so you know what a funnel is like. You know, we’ve got three or four pages to click through. There’s usually a one-time offer or two or 16 at the end. You know, everybody’s been through thousands and thousands and thousands of these things. The trouble with those is that you have 100 people come in at the top of the funnel, and maybe three people are coming out at the bottom. My question has always been, what happened to the other 97%? What happened to those people? They were interested. They just didn’t know if they wanted to buy right now, or maybe their circumstances were different. We didn’t find anything out about them. We did not engage them. We just engaged the people that were ready to buy right now. And we hope we hope someday that some of their other content will get them to, I don’t know, wake up and do something. To me, this is not the most efficient use of resources in the entire world. [2:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
RJ: I want, I don’t want a funnel anymore. I want a waterfall. I want a waterfall, Nancy, of people who, a smaller amount of people, say 20 to 30, are super interested in me and what I really want at the bottom of the waterfall. is a great big pool that everybody can swim around with, get to know each other, get to know me. Maybe we’ll be partners, maybe we’ll be referrals, maybe we’ll bundle some programs, maybe they need to buy from me. It doesn’t matter. When you enter the pool, you can swim to a different part of the pool. So, in short, giving people an epic adventure is about interacting with them, true interaction. I am not talking about likes and shares here. That is not interaction, my friend. True interactions where you get to find out about them, they get to find out about you, and by the time they fall through that waterfall, they’re already ready to do something. To me, that’s the answer to the question of where did the other 97% go? [3:49]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Now you claim that everyone is guessing as it relates to marketing. Why is that?
RJ: Sure, we are imprinted into our brains this idea that we need to reach the masses to be heard by a few. That is a problem because when we are thinking about the masses, then we’re thinking about a mass industrial spray and pray message. I say everybody is guessing about marketing because algorithms change, people change, worries and fears and frustrations change. It is a moving target when you are shooting for a mass of people to get a few people back. I’d rather not guess. I’d rather have a laser. [4:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, but how do you develop a laser? What do you do?
RJ: Okay, well, first, we take a really good look at you. What is it that your unique thumbprint puts out there in the world? I am not interested in what everybody else is selling. I’m not interested in you being a carbon copy of something that worked for somebody else five years ago. Haven’t we seen enough of that? No, I’m really interested in what you do that’s special. How do you provide a service that is different? We move to the next step, which is who are your people? Who are the people that when they hear your voice go “Oh my God, I need to talk to her right now”? When they hear your voice or read something you’ve written or see you on a summit or in a video or something, they go, it’s like they’re hearing their favorite song for the first time, and that resonance is there. That’s what we’re working toward. And so, to build that resonance and build that laser focus, we need to know who your people are. We need to take 60 different looks from different angles. We need to dice and slice the information. We need to know who our people are for sure. And then we need to point that laser. [6:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, we live in a world bombarded with marketing outreach. I’m sure you agree. And you believe in making it genuine and stand out from the crowd. How do you do that?
RJ: Oh, well, my friends. And that was something that I wrote before AI became, the new next, basically the air that we’re breathing.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep.
RJ: The way to stand out right now, as I see it in the marketplace is, to make your writing, make your video, make your podcast, make everything personal, have that thumbprint in there. Do not accept “Oh, I could send 800 messages that all say the same thing to 800 people on LinkedIn today. Let’s go ahead and press that button”. Do not accept mass, you know, mass marketing, mass messaging. It’s not the way to go. Make it personal. Make it personal because everybody is using these AI writers nowadays to, you know, throw out an article or two. You know, those sound like they’re produced by robots, Nancy. [7:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, I think, you know, as it relates to AI, it might give you a start, but you must make it your own then. You must get into the document and use your own words so that you do stand out. And I know that you have a product, engagement first marketing. What is that?
RJ: Engagement First Marketing reframes the funnel concept into what that client’s journey is going to be like. Have you ever been to Disneyland? [7:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Me? Oh no, world. Oh no, I was on Land when I was very young.
RJ: Okay, well, Land World, both the same for the purposes of these questions. And Disneyland and Disney World, think about every moment of the journey that you are taking, and they do their best to make it a frictionless journey. What I mean by that is, this was a couple of years ago, they developed these watches that your watch opens your hotel room door. Your watch pays for dinner. Your watch basically does everything. They give you information right when you need it so that you can use it right there so you’re not carrying the cognitive load of where they say the thing was. All that kind of stuff. That intentional journey setting makes Disneyland what it is, which is a preferred destination for many, even those without kids. Yes, I’ve been there. [8:59] That…
Nancy Calabrese: Yep.
RJ: That journey is what your people need to take. That journey needs to be full of interaction with you. Some of its stuff that we kind of write into a process. The quizzes, games, choose your own adventure videos, all of these types of things allow people to get to know you at their own pace. You get to know a little bit about them, and that way, by the time they’re sitting across from you. They know that they want to be part of your tribe. They know. [9:34]
Nancy Calabrese: So, as it relates to engagement though, how many conversations or interactions do you think are necessary before, you know, you go to convert them to a client?
RJ: Absolutely. So how many engagements are necessary? We’ve all heard it takes seven to twelve times to convert people. We’ve all, you know, kind of heard that statistic. And I guess it does for some people. But for me, the interaction ramps that it’s like when you go to a three-day event. And by the end of the three-day event, at least me, I feel like I know everybody there and I’m going to terribly miss them when I go home. An event ramps up, and face-to-face ramps up the trust factor. [10:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
RJ: Interaction, marketing, engagement first marketing works in the same way. It starts to help people, and it also qualifies people, which is very important, but it qualifies the right people. So, my answer to that question is that it doesn’t have to take seven to 12. If you know exactly what you provide that’s unique to this world and that they desperately need, and if you know your people, it could take one or two times and they’re sold. And they just ask you in a message, how much is it going to be? They don’t even have to sit down with you to know. [10:59]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, huh? Okay, everyone out there listening, Unfortunately, this is audio only, but our guest is a big believer in wearing capes and goggles. So, why the cape and goggles?
RJ: Yes. Oh, well, that is a little story. And the story goes like this. So, I used to be a person who offered marketing services on the Internet. I offered chatbots, which I started with those. I’ve been working with those for about six years. At the beginning of my journey, I wore a polo with my logo on the left side of my shirt chest, you know what I mean? I said the words that I was supposed to say to get picked up by SEO. I said the words that I avoided saying the words that I wasn’t supposed to say because I didn’t want Facebook to debunk my videos. You know what I mean? I did all the things that you’re supposed to be able to do and it was boring. [12:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
RJ: Nobody really was super attracted to me, and I didn’t know why because I know a heck of a lot. And so anyway, I was low-key looking for a solution to that problem. I ran into a lady who was putting on an event. When she was describing the event, she said it was going to be themed as a superhero event. And I, being a smart aleck, wrote in the comments, “Oh, well, if it’s a superhero event, I’m wearing a cape”. And she stopped the event. She read my name out and she said, “RJ Redden, you bleep and well better wear a cape”. And then she went on with her presentation and I’m like, okay, I think I’m committed now. And so, you know what? I bought a cape on Amazon for $7.97, came with an itchy mask that did not fit my head properly. And I went to this superhero event dressed up. [13:05] Now,
Nancy Calabrese: I love it.
RJ: Was anybody else dressed up? No, they were not, Nancy. It was really just me. But what I found out was so important. Here I was trying to stand out in all the ways that they tell you to stand out and no one was interested. I put on a cape and goggles. People came up to me. They came running up and asking me about the cape and goggles. And I realized that I didn’t have to worry about being shy anymore because they’re… [13:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
RJ: Running across the room to talk to me. And I also, here’s the really important part. Here’s the part that changed everything for me. I could just be myself in the conversation because they weren’t expecting a marketing expert. They were expecting a person who’s crazy enough to wear a caping mask to an event. They weren’t expecting a normal conversation. So, I could really be myself, and connect with them. [14:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow.
RJ: And that just, that tipped it all off. I started wearing a cape and goggles everywhere when I was working when I was working.
Nancy Calabrese: It’s your brand.
RJ: I don’t wear it to walk the dog unless I forget to take it off.
Nancy Calabrese: Come on. That’s a whole other business that you develop, right?
RJ: My wife will be so happy to hear that.
Nancy Calabrese: So, yeah, well, listen, cape goggles, we’re cackling. What is a fun fact about you want to share with the audience?
RJ: Oh my gosh. All right, I’ll share with you the most fun fact I have. This is known between my sisters and me as the can you be my friend question. Because if you can be my friend after hearing this fact, then you can really be my friend. Okay, so I’m eight years old. Picture it, Omaha, Nebraska. I’m eight. I have a sister who’s two years older. I have a sister who’s two years younger. My mom was a very interesting human and married some very, very interesting humans that really, you know, they believed, my mom and my stepdad and there you know, the crew that hung around them, they believed that the world was too commercialized, that we really, what we really needed to do was head to Oregon in a 1950 bus that had been renovated, and I say that with air quotes, renovated into an air quote mobile home and live off of the land while the guys panned for gold. There was a group of about eight to 10 of us, depending on which leg of the trip we were on. We drove the bus to Oregon. It took us a month and a half because that bus was not in good repair, my friends. [15:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh my goodness.
RJ: And we stayed in the mountains. They panned for gold and that was going to be our lives. And my grandmother flew to see us. She came up the side of the mountain and she said to my mother, “Rebecca, I love you. You can do whatever you want for the rest of your life, and I will always love you. And that’s never going away. But unless you move to a home with plumbing and a school for the kids to go to, I’m taking them home with me”. It was a thing. And so very quickly, there were plans and we moved into a place with plumbing. I just thought it was so fantastic. That is how I spent the summer of 1983. And I think from there, you can probably guess a lot about me. That’s the most fun fact I have. [16:49]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, I don’t think I can top that one. I don’t think I’ve heard one like that. That’s quite an experience and I’m sure a memory that’s never going to fade in your mind.
RJ: Oh no.
Nancy Calabrese: No, you know, we’re coming up to the end of our program. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
RJ: Here’s the takeaway. Many, many people, particularly when you’re first in business, many, many people will, you know, they’ll want to show you the way. They’ll want to give you the 18-step program or, you know, whatever they want to do. If you ever get into a coaching relationship or a program that demands that you be someone else to accomplish the goals, run, run away. [17:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, totally agree.
RJ: That’s right. You must be yourself. You must embrace and own that brilliance for you to shine brightly out there because there’s a lot of noise out there, my friends. But you, if you’re resonating with the sound of my voice right now, if you know that that’s the truth, do it. Always embrace the path that lets you be you first and you’ll get to your goals faster. [18:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Cool. Now I’m going to tell you a funny story talking about being yourself. So, I have curly hair. And when I was growing up, in high school, it was not cool to have curly hair. And I would spend hours under a blow dryer with huge rollers to straighten my hair. As soon as I got outside, it would curl. So fast forward, I finally graduated high school. And then I did something dramatic. I got my hair cut short and I let it curl. And when I let it curl, I was free. [18:46]
RJ: Yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: I was me. So that kind of coincides with your story of being true to yourself. How can my people find you?
RJ: Oh, well, there are many places to find me. I am always lurking around that LinkedIn platform. Yes, look me up, RJ Redden. Obviously, I would love to connect with you there. Also, there’s just, you know, there’s my website, obviously, blackbeltbots.com. Black belts like in Karate Ninjas, that’s totally my branding. So, RJ at blackbeltbots.com. And you know, if you want to meet with me, meet with RJ.com, we’ll send you right to my calendar, and we can get into some ninja strategy for whatever you’re going through. And have some fun in the meantime. [19:42]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. And remember everybody to wear your cape when you meet with her.
RJ: That’s right. That’s right, my friends. Any sort of cape, a prop of some kind, I accept wigs, whatever you got.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, and every cut, this is too funny. So, listen, you were great. I’m going to have you back on the show and everyone take advantage of RJ’s expertise and her approach to business at the end of the day, it’s going to be a lot of fun. So, make it a great sales day, everyone. [20:15]
by Nancy Calabrese | Aug 28, 2023 | Podcast
About Amanda Kohal: Amanda Kohal is the Founder & Digital Strategist of the Wolfe Co. Amanda provides business owners with access to reputable resources, community connections, and trusted guidance/education to start converting on social. After working as a brand marketing manager in corporate, Amanda ventured on her own, took her love of digital marketing, and ran with it. Amanda has turned many personal brands and service-based businesses into cash cows by helping clients earn $10k from just 2 Instagram stories, $77k from one DM, and $28K social media launches. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Amanda.
In this episode, Nancy and Amanda discuss the following:
- Secrets of turning a company into a cash cow.
- Tips on getting deeper into the funnel.
- Why selling on social is an important marketing channel.
- Applying strategies on different social media platforms.
- Why LinkedIn differs from other social media.
- How often to post on social media.
- Latest news on Google integration with AI.
Key Takeaways:
- I have never really focused on chasing the followers rather than on the community that was already there, who are a little bit deeper in the funnel to convert.
- So having a presence and a place where people can buy in the spaces that they’re now searching for is really important if you’re running a business online.
- LinkedIn is a great space for organic reach.
- Our InstaSite is a static grid of all the information that you would typically find on a website.
- When it comes to a space like TikTok Start, start with at least a 15-day sprint of daily posting to accelerate the algorithm.
“I created a unique approach to social and a strategy called Instasite. And it’s basically looking at social media platforms in two different categories. One category is those platforms that are good at achieving growth, visibility, and reach. And then those platforms that are good at nurturing and converting from the platforms that are driving that reach and visibility for you. So, when you pair them together, you now have more of a holistic approach to your strategy, as opposed to leaning too far into just focusing on growth or leaning too far on just doing heavy selling on your social. You’re now covering all your bases, bases of grow, connect, and convert.” – AMANDA
“ Google has now come out saying that they’re going to be integrating AI into their entire search experience. So one of the things that we’re going to start seeing is when you’re searching on Google, it’s going to become a little bit more visual. Like you would find on Instagram, TikTok, or even YouTube. So, if I’m typing in keywords like, social media strategy into Google, because, you know, I have content that is all about social media strategy. My actual posts from Instagram or TikTok are now going to show up in Google searches as opposed to it just simply being mostly text searches right now. So that’s another reason why getting into LinkedIn would be a good idea, especially if you’re posting content. Really optimize those keywords, your captions, and any of the text on the screen. So, in the future, the very near future, when people are searching topic-specific because maybe they’re not aware of you just yet, content can now show up on Google your actual posts.” – AMANDA
“Start with two platforms, one good for the reach and visibility, whatever that might be. I’ll give you a few examples and you can pick one from the category. We’ve got TikTok, LinkedIn, YouTube, Pinterest, or blogging in the visibility category, and then create yourself an Instasite, and mimic the experience of a website. There are over 200 examples out there right now. So, you can really drive traffic over to your Instasite, which then drives traffic to your website, checkout page, landing page, whatever it might be. You’re going to find a lot more success like that than spreading yourself so thin across all the platforms.” – AMANDA
Connect with Amanda Kohal:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation! Today we’re speaking with Amanda Kohal, Founder & Digital Strategist of the Wolfe Co. Amanda provides business owners with access to reputable resources, community connections, and trusted guidance/education to start converting on social. After working as a brand marketing manager in corporate, Amanda ventured on her own and took her love of digital marketing and ran with it. From helping clients earn $10k from just 2 Instagram stories, $77k from one DM, and $28K social media launches, Amanda has turned many personal brands and service-based businesses into cash cows. Welcome to the show, Amanda! Let’s just dive in!
Amanda Kohal: Thank you, Nancy, and thank you for the great introduction. [1:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, okay. I want to talk about making my company into a cash cow. I mean, what’s the magic in what you do?
Amanda Kohal: I have a little bit of a unique approach to social media. So, since day one, I have never really focused on chasing the followers. I’ve always focused on the community that was already there, who are a little bit deeper in the funnel to convert. And when I speak about conversion, I’m of course talking about the monetary conversion for your business. But as well as converting folks into super fans of yours, as well as advocates for your brand and message to potentially refer you to others and to just support your content as a whole. [2:12]
Nancy Calabrese: But tell me more about that. How do you get deeper into the funnel?
Amanda Kohal: Yes. So, I created a unique approach to social and a strategy called the Instasite™️. And it’s basically looking at social media platforms in two different categories. One category is those platforms that are good at achieving growth, visibility, and reach. And then those platforms that are good at nurturing and converting from the platforms that are driving that reach and visibility for you. So, when you pair them together, you now have more of a holistic approach to your strategy, as opposed to leaning too far into just focusing on growth or leaning too far on just doing heavy selling on your social. You’re now covering all your bases, bases of grow, connect, and convert. [3:16]
Nancy Calabrese: So why is selling on social an important marketing channel?
Amanda Kohal: I mean, most folks now are using social media as their initial search platform. So, I think we’re at like 42% of people are going to either Instagram, TikTok, or Facebook groups first when they’re searching for a brand business or even a specific niche and topic over going to Google. So having that presence and a place where people can buy in the spaces that they’re now searching for is really, important if you’re running a business online. We can’t just simply rely on maybe somebody finding us over on Google. We need to now have some sort of a presence on various specific platforms that work for our businesses. [4:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, so is your model really geared towards companies that sell online?
Amanda Kohal: Yes, it is a conversion-based strategy. So, if you would like, I can break it down a little bit more to kind of paint a picture here of how it all works together. So, let’s go to the InstaSite piece. The entire strategy covers multiple social platforms. The name of it is just the InstaSite because it kind of makes sense for what we’re doing. So, with Instagram on its own, we start to treat it like a website because of the data I just shared with you. The fact that more people are going to social for their initial search for a brand or business. So why don’t we create that website experience, but over on Instagram? So, on your InstaSite, it’s a static grid of all the information that you would typically find on a website. You’ve got case studies; you’ve got extra resources; a summary of your services or products. You’ve got reviews and testimonials and the list kind of goes on. You’ve got this static grid and you are posting it once. It is designed to last you up to 18 months, sometimes longer, depending on your business model and how often you create new services or products. or if you’re going through a rebrand or whatever it might be. So, you set up this static grid and then you’re using other features on Instagram and other social media platforms to really drive traffic over to that grid as well as between your channels. So, on Instagram, when it comes to ongoing content, you’re really playing in the stories, which I have found in my experience for my own business, as well as for clients to be the highest selling space on social media because Instagram stories are only delivered to people who are already following you. [6:25] So automatically those folks are a little bit deeper into your brand story. They’re more familiar with you. And then in technical terms, they’re deeper in the funnel. So, positioning your services and offers in there, showing behind the scenes of your business, your process, and even your personality tends to convert higher than to an audience that is newer and more top of the funnel and isn’t quite as aware or familiar with your brand. So, for posting regularly in stories, you can talk about whatever it is that we want. And then if we pair the static Instasite™️grid or ongoing stories with a platform like TikTok, which is an algorithm in my opinion that is unmatched by any social media. We are now getting visibility and awareness over on TikTok and generally driving TikTok traffic over to our Instagram accounts. And the reason for this is that TikTok has done this brilliant thing where they’ve allowed you to link up your Instagram or your YouTube channel. If you’re using YouTube, directly to your TikTok profile. And it’s kind of become a natural behavior on TikTok. When you’re watching somebody’s videos, you go over to their TikTok profile, you start binging a few more TikTok videos, and then you naturally click on their Instagram icon, if they have it linked up, and now go over to their Instagram page and consume from there. What we’ve found with the Instasite™️ because it is the static grid, it’s typically 15 posts. I know that doesn’t seem like a lot, but they’re very powerful posts that are hyper-focused on either growth connection or conversion, a call to action. [8:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Amanda Kohal: We’ve found that when people go over, they see the Instasite™️, the viewer-to-follower happens much faster because you have a bird’s eye view of the business and the content. So, within seconds you can decide without having to sift through tons and tons of content if this is a space for you or if it’s not a space for you. So the concept is to save business owners time because I know from my own creation and talking to fellow business owners, the number one thing that I kept hearing was “I’m so tired, I’m burnt out, I don’t know how to keep up with Instagram alone as one platform”, let alone maybe explore space like LinkedIn or Twitter or TikTok or YouTube or whatever it is because they’ve been so busy on this content creation hamster wheel, trying to keep up with whatever strategy a guru told them to instead of being in their business and looking for revenue-generating activities or creating content for spaces that actually circulate their content. [9:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, so, okay, you know, you just mentioned it, but I was going to ask you, I didn’t hear LinkedIn in this. Do you use LinkedIn as a tool?
Amanda Kohal: Yeah, so I was just giving you an example of, you know, if you pair a platform that is good for traffic like TikTok with a platform that is good at nurturing and making Instasite, but TikTok or LinkedIn does fall under the traffic driving and discovery and reach platform category. It is such a great space for organic reach. I love the space. I personally have been using it as more of a presence play with posting content here and there, more focused on engagement than anything until I’m ready to fully go all in and start posting more on a regular basis. But with the presence play, I recommend everybody get a LinkedIn account because if you are searching for a specific person, a business, or a brand on Google when you type in those keywords, whatever it might be, LinkedIn profiles show up first out of all of the social media platforms. [11:05] And I believe the reason is that LinkedIn is deemed a little bit more credible. There’s quite a paper trail there. There are some receipts there. You can’t simply say you do something on LinkedIn without there being a timeline and a paper trail to follow. Whereas on Instagram, TikTok, and even Twitter, you can say you do anything. Whereas LinkedIn, you just can’t really do that. So even as a presence play, having a profile that is optimized is a great choice so that you’re showing up and you get a little bit more visibility on Google. And the other thing I want to mention with this is Google has now come out saying that they’re going to be integrating AI into their entire search experience. So one of the things that we’re [12:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Amanda Kohal: going to start seeing is when you’re searching on Google, it’s going to become a little bit more visual. Like you would find on Instagram or TikTok or even YouTube. So, if I’m typing in keywords like, social media strategy into Google, because, you know, I have content that is all about social media strategy. My actual posts from Instagram or TikTok are now going to show up in Google searches as opposed to it just simply being mostly text searches right now. So that’s another reason why getting into LinkedIn would be a good idea, especially if you’re posting content. Really optimize those keywords, your captions, and any of the text on the screen. So, in the future, the very near future, when people are searching topic-specific because maybe they’re not aware of you just yet, content can now show up on Google your actual posts. [13:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, when will that happen?
Amanda Kohal: I mean, given Google’s track record, I would say it’s probably going to happen this year. I know that they’ve been testing some things out. So, the first step is getting that presence and optimizing your bios on LinkedIn or whatever social media platforms you’re using and then deciding, okay, what is going to be the space that I create content for? The one space I create my primary content for. And now what other channels am I going to use to now repurpose that primary piece of content on? And as you go deeper and deeper and kind of build up some momentum as well as you get used to your own posting cadence, that’s when you can really start to layer on more and more platforms. I never recommend signing up for all of them. On day one, you really got to pick a couple. Get into a groove and then you can go from there, expand and explore new spaces. [14:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. How often do you recommend posting on social?
Amanda Kohal: It’s really more a matter of the creator’s capacity and being able to be consistent at that capacity, whether it is once a week you’re posting to LinkedIn twice a week, every single day, twice a day, whatever it might be, as long as the capacity that you can keep up with on an ongoing basis outside of any kind of accelerated posting sprints that you might do. Now, when it comes to a space like TikTok and maybe even the other social media platforms, I recommend for at least the first 15 days, you do one of that kinds of accelerated sprints and you commit to posting every single day for 15 days straight, just to show the, it’s really to show the algorithms that “Hey, I’m here, I’m taking this seriously, I’m going to show up. It might not be. every day for the rest of my time in this space. But I’m going to now find a cadence that works for me. But I want to, you know, get on the platform, come in hot, put my content out there, get a little momentum, and show the space that I’m here to play”. We’re going to be posting content in the near future, especially with TikTok, if that’s a space that your listeners want to explore or they’re already exploring. Start with that at least a 15-day sprint. Find a cadence then that works for you. That’s a few times a week. If you still want to do it every single day, it’s up to you and your capacity. And then as you start getting closer to sales cycles, you’ll repeat another 15-day sprint to really amp up the visibility of your messaging. [16:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, and is there, do you have like any insight as to how long these posts should be?
Amanda Kohal: Well, that varies on each platform.
Nancy Calabrese: Mm-hmm.
Amanda Kohal: On TikTok right now, it seems that content that is over a minute long seems to be getting a lot more traction, whether that is in the format of a daily vlog where your voiceover is what… you’re doing in that day. If it’s a get ready with me, or if it’s an educational talking head, it seems to be that TikTok as well as looking for more enriched pieces of content as opposed to, you know, the seven-second trends and dancing that used to be really popular and used to get you a lot of visibility, but kind of left users at a dead end with a lot of creators. because they would create these short, quick posts, seven seconds long, eight seconds long, whatever it is. And then we’d be curious enough to go over to their profile, but there was nothing of substance there. There was no real reason to kind of stay in that space and continue to binge. So even TikTok is now looking at, I would say quote unquote, their version of longer-form content, because 60 seconds is not that. long. But in TikTok worlds, it is long. [18:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Interesting. It’s interesting. We could go on and on, Amanda. I’ve learned so much. So, if you had one takeaway you want to leave the audience with, what would that be?
Amanda Kohal: Start with two platforms, one that is good for the reach and visibility, whatever that might be. I’ll give you a few examples and you can pick one from the category. We’ve got TikTok, LinkedIn, YouTube, Pinterest, or blogging in the visibility category, and then create yourself an Instasite, mimic the experience of a website. There are over 200 examples out there right now. So, you can really drive traffic over to your Instasite, which then drives traffic to your website, checkout page, landing page, whatever it might be. You’re going to find a lot more success like that than spreading yourself so thin across all the platforms. [19:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow, how can my people find you?
Amanda Kohal: You can find everything over on my Instagram page at www.thewolfe.co
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, everyone, did you hear that? Amanda, thank you so much for spending time with me. And I highly encourage everyone to check out Instasite™️. I know I’m going to do it when we’re done. Amanda, make it a great rest of the day. I hope you come back sometime when you have more information or more revelations on social media. [19:48]
Amanda Kohal: I would love that. Thank you for having me.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, everyone, make it a great sales day again, and we’ll see you next time. [19:57]
by Nancy Calabrese | Aug 17, 2023 | Podcast
About Reuben Swartz: Reuben Swartz is the founder of Mimiran, the “anti-CRM” for independent consultants who love serving clients but hate “selling.” Mimiran helps companies sell faster and more profitably by streamlining the sales process, converting more visitors into leads, more leads into conversations, and more conversations into e-signed proposals. He’s also the host and chief nerd on the Sales for Nerds podcast. He went from a computer science and software engineering background to sales and marketing consulting for the Fortune 500. His mission is to help other independent consultants make a bigger dent in the universe and get more clients by using their talents to teach instead of the market, connect instead of the network, and help instead of sell. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Reuben.
In this episode, Nancy and Reuben discuss the following:
- The importance of having the right CRM.
- The key to identifying your ideal prospect.
- How to have a fun and productive conversation when you are not a salesperson and think sales are icky.
- Why do people find sales awkward?
- Being an introvert in the sales world.
- Tips on following up effectively.
Key Takeaways:
- And one of the reasons why I ended up building an anti-CRM is because all the CRMs I’ve tried (and I’ve tried dozens of them) were sort of like necessary evils for me.
- Defining your ideal client is the foundation for everything.
- You don’t have to waste a bunch of time trying to convince someone to have shoulder surgery who doesn’t need it.
- The main thing is when you have strong positioning, it acts like a magnet and it starts attracting your tribe to you, and just as importantly, it pushes the people who are not going to be a good fit for you away.
- Referral networks are relationships that are built on conversations.
- There’s a place for email marketing and automation, but when you’re in a sales cycle, you’re in a conversation-based context, and you need to talk to people.
” Try to think like a doctor rather than a sales rep trying to make quota. And me being a sales and marketing consultant for years and sitting in some of these sales meetings where people were kind of giving those always-be closing speeches was not a good influence on me. And I knew it wasn’t me, but I was like “Well, I guess this is what I must do”. I got to force myself to do it. And no, you don’t have to do that. And so, if you go back to that foundation of let’s make sure that we’re targeting the right people and attracting the right people to us, think about like the doctor who does shoulder surgeries. You don’t go to the ear, nose, or throat doctor for your shoulder surgery. You don’t go to the knee doctor for your shoulder surgery, etc. If you walked into the hospital and every doctor there was kind of trying to stab you with a business card saying “I’m a doctor and you know, by the way, you’re walking funny, let me fix your knee, etc”. That would be an absurd experience.” – REUBEN
“ You probably went to a restaurant recently and had a great experience with a waiter or waitress. That’s a salesperson. You go to the doctor. That’s a salesperson. A lot of these things that we don’t think about that’s really what we ought to be doing. We don’t want to be selling to anybody. We don’t want to be convincing them to do something that we want them to do. We want to be helping them to do the thing that they want to do.” – REUBEN
“Most introverts I know don’t want to be in a room full of tons of people, but they love having deep, interesting conversations, and they’re good listeners. They’ve got everything they need, except the mindset and the process, and the organization to do that with intention.” – REUBEN
Connect with Reuben Swartz:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation! Today we’re speaking with Reuben Swartz, the founder of Mimiran, a fun CRM Mimeran that helps companies sell faster and more profitably by streamlining the sales process, converting more visitors into leads, more leads into conversations, and more conversations into e-signed proposals. He’s also the host and chief nerd on the Sales for Nerds podcast. His mission is to help other independent consultants make a bigger dent in the universe and get more clients by using their talents to teach instead of the market, connect instead of the network, and help instead of sell. Welcome to the show, Reuben! This is going to be a great conversation.
Reuben Swartz: Nancy, so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. [1:18]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so I want to just start with this. I see the word CRM and you tie it with fun. Isn’t that an oxymoron?
Reuben Swartz: Well, it is, or it has been in my experience until now. And that’s one of the reasons that I ended up building what I call an anti-CRM because all the CRMs I’ve tried, and I’ve tried dozens of them, they were sort of like necessary evils for me. And I kept hearing the same thing from other people. And I would love to tell you that I had a flash of insight and I set out to create a fun CRM that people would want to use, but that’s not what happened at all. I started building things to plug into other CRMs. And people started asking for access to these tools that I had really built for myself. And then they started saying, hey, I really like the way Mimiran works. I hate my CRM. Can you just make Mimiran do the CRM stuff too? And of course, I said, well, the world doesn’t need another CRM. And if for some reason they did, I’d be the last person who should build it. I am fricking hate CRMs. And of course, you can see where this is going. They were like, well, that’s why you should do it because you understand what… the problem is and why we want things to be different. And I kept saying, no, that’s ridiculous. No sane person creates another CRM currently. And of course, you can see where we’re at. So, you can make whatever derivations you want about my sanity. But the point is most CRMs are for the VPS sales to keep track of the sales team. Like that’s the job. And that’s a perfectly reasonable thing to want to do. But especially for my tribe, independent consultants. We are the VP of sales and the sales team and the VP of marketing and the marketing intern. And we hate all those things and we’re trying to do them in our spare time. So, in a traditional CRM, we feel like we’re working for the tool instead of the tool helping us. And one of the things that’s interesting when I look back on my time as a consultant was when I was working with these giant companies who had enterprise CRMs, we would pull the data out of the CRMs thinking it was going to give us all kinds of meaningful insight. But the sales reps were kind of playing cat and mouse. with the CRM too and they often had their own spreadsheet on the side. So, I wanted something that would be fun, that you’d look forward to logging into in the morning because it was going to make your day not just more profitable, but a better, more pleasant, more fun time. [3:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, so but how do you make it fun though? I mean, it is what it is, right? So how do you find fun in just working through a CRM?
Reuben Swartz: Sure. Well, I think a lot of the reason that we think of sales as not being fun is that we absorb a lot of the wrong lessons about what sales means and I know I did. And we think of it as we’re going to badger a bunch of people, we’re going to strong-arm a bunch of people, the whole Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, always be closing stuff comes to mind. We’re going to do a bunch of tedious crap in our CRM because that’s how we log things, etc. And of course, it’s like you can sustain that for a while, but… Most people get worn down eventually, even people who love selling. And what I realized eventually is an introverted person, as a techie, who tried to use a whole bunch of technology to get out of selling, to get out of the conversations like, wait a second, I actually love having conversations with interesting people about topics we both care about. [4:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Reuben Swartz: I just hate having quote-unquote sales conversations. So how can I be more intentional about having fun conversations and never feel like I’m in a sales conversation? And a lot of it was realizing that I already know a ton of people who I enjoy talking to, who seem to enjoy talking to me, some of whom are prospects or partners, past clients, etc. Why am I going out of my way to try to badger people who aren’t my ideal fit, try to talk them into something that… they’re not ready for, they don’t want, they don’t need, it’s not the best thing for them, etc., when I’m not even having the conversations with the people who would really like me to call them and help them. Right, let’s start with that. And I think a lot of it is getting really clear with who your ideal client is so that when you have those conversations, one, there’s a good chance they’re going to say, oh my goodness, thank goodness you found me, I really need your help, or gosh. That’s so cool. I know exactly the person you need to talk to or even if they’re not going to buy, you’re just having a conversation almost amongst peers, colleagues, and joint experts who care about the same topic. [5:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Reuben Swartz: So, it doesn’t feel like I’m trying to sell. It just feels like “Hey, we’re just having a great conversation, more like a doctor than a salesperson”.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. OK, so I think the key to it is really identifying your ideal prospect, right?
Reuben Swartz: I think that’s the foundation for everything else. And if you don’t do that, everything gets exponentially harder. It’s like your positioning is a giant lever and it can make everything so much easier and more fun. Or if you have it the wrong way around, it makes everything way, way harder, and more miserable. And it creates a virtuous or vicious cycle depending on which way you have that lever positioned. And unfortunately, a lot of us don’t have that lever working to our advantage. [6:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Now why is this only for solo consultants?
Reuben Swartz: Well, great question. And it kind of comes back to that ideal client thing that you’re talking about because I’ve had people at larger firms, bigger sales teams, enterprise sales teams using it and it does what it says and it helps them, but eventually those other larger teams, they need some of the more traditional CRM aspects. And if I try to please them, I’m not going to do as good a job as the tools that are already dedicated to those big teams. And I’m going to lose the simplicity and the ease that my tribe, the solo folks, really cares about.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So how does one have a fun, productive conversation when they’re not a salesperson and they think sales are icky?
Reuben Swartz: I think that’s the zillion-dollar question for this day and age. And the way I started reframing it for myself was I don’t like selling, but I like helping. So, let me just go help people, right? Try to think like a doctor rather than a sales rep trying to make quota. And me being a sales and marketing consultant for years and sitting in some of these sales meetings where people were kind of giving those always-be closing speeches was not a good influence on me. And I knew it wasn’t me, but I was like, well, I guess this is what I must do. I got to force myself to do it. And no, you don’t have to do that. And so, if you go back to that foundation of let’s make sure that we’re targeting the right people and attracting the right people to us, think about like the doctor who does shoulder surgeries. You don’t go to the ear, nose, or throat doctor for your shoulder surgery. You don’t go to the knee doctor for your shoulder surgery, et cetera. If you walked into the hospital and every doctor there was kind of trying to stab you with a business card saying, I’m a doctor and you know, by the way, you’re walking funny, let me fix your knee, etc. That would be an absurd experience. But that’s the way a lot of business seems to work. And obviously, that would be miserable. But if you get known as, hey, I’m the guy who helps repair shoulders, and maybe it’s shoulders for young athletes, or it’s shoulders for senior citizens who have experienced a fall like the tighter that specialty is, people think that they’re going to give up. Business and I know I went through that process as well, but you get more of it. You get better referrals. You have easier conversations and it’s also easy for you to say, hey, somehow you ended up in this room, but you belong with Dr. so-and-so down the hall. [9:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Reuben Swartz: And you don’t have to think and worry about that. You don’t have to waste a bunch of time trying to convince someone to have shoulder surgery who doesn’t need it, etc.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So why do people find sales so awkward?
Reuben Swartz: Well, I think we have a lot of weird lessons that we absorb. And I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this because like I said, I spent a long time as a sales and marketing consultant who struggled with sales and marketing, and I tend to overanalyze anything to begin with. So, I think part of it is we can all recall instances where we have felt sold by that icky sales rep, right? Everyone can relate to that from movies and popular culture to experiences we’ve had trying to buy something call as easily I think, but what happens far more often is all the amazing times that salespeople have done stuff for us where we didn’t notice it because we weren’t being sold, we were being helped to buy. [10:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Reuben Swartz: We’re kind of wired, I think, to remember those nasty experiences to try to protect ourselves, but we have far more positive experiences with sales. You probably went to a restaurant recently and had a great experience with a waiter or waitress. That’s a salesperson. You go to the doctor, that’s a salesperson. A lot of these things that we don’t think about, that’s really what we ought to be doing. We don’t want to be selling to anybody. We don’t want to be convincing them to do something that we want them to do. We want to be helping them to do the thing that they want to do. [[10:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Reuben Swartz: And if we can do that combined with the right positioning, that means we can make a living doing that.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, you mentioned the waitress, the doctors, in my opinion, everybody’s in sales, because selling is all about communication, right?
Reuben Swartz: Absolutely. We’re all selling all the time, but somehow, and I think there are plenty, there are always those examples of people who are trying to manipulate others for their own gain against the other person’s interest. That’s always a threat. But there are far more people I think who are trying to help us, our friends, our family, our colleagues, etc., not just the people, like as you say, who have the sales rep after their title.
Nancy Calabrese: Right, right, no, I get that. So, I know everybody likes to get into the office, they’re gonna be 100% every day, but the reality is some days are better than others. So how can people find better energy for sales conversations?
Reuben Swartz: I think that’s a great question as well. And I think a lot of it comes down to momentum and habit. And I kind of liken it to going into the gym, right? January 1st, everyone makes a commitment to go to the gym and I can’t remember what the percentage is, but you know, by March, most of them stopped going kind of thing. [11:59]
Nancy Calabrese: They’re gone.
Reuben Swartz: And in the same token, sales teams have these great sales plans, solo consultants decide, hey, I’m going to go meet X number of people per week, etc., and then it tends to fall off. And so, what I realized is most of us try to go from zero to 100 miles an hour. Like, oh, I missed my numbers last quarter. So, I’m going to, you know, I, you create your spreadsheet and I need to talk to a thousand people and blah, blah. And you’re trying to make that big leap. You’re trying to go from, I don’t know how to snowboard to I’m going to go off the double black diamond, and then I’m going to wonder why it wasn’t a fun experience, and then you’re going to stop and repeat the process. And so instead I tell people, to start on the bunny slopes. Call the people that are easy to call. And it doesn’t even have to be a businessperson, right? If you need to get that momentum going, call a buddy that you haven’t talked to in a while. Call a past client that you know is going to be excited to hear from you. Call an advisor or a mentor or a mentee that there’s no selling going on whatsoever. [13:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Reuben Swartz: Just to remind yourself, especially as an introvert, like this was fricking hard for me.
Nancy Calabrese: Are you an introvert?
Reuben Swartz: I’m an introvert, but I love having conversations like this. And that’s what I think a lot of introverts don’t understand. They think that to have conversations, I’ve got to go to some giant networking event, get stabbed with business cards, and be miserable.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Reuben Swartz: And I think one of the silver linings of COVID was sort of forcing us to be more intentional about how we connect with people.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Reuben Swartz: And one of the big things about my CRM is… Let’s be intentional about having these conversations because if you’re in a relationship business, you’re in a conversation business, there is no way around that. And as an introvert, that seemed terrifying, but it’s totally fine. Most introverts I know don’t want to be in a room full of tons of people, but they love having deep, interesting conversations and they’re good listeners. They’ve got everything they need, except the mindset and the process, and the organization to do that with intention. [14:07]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So how can you use positioning to have a better conversation?
Reuben Swartz: I think the main thing is when you have strong positioning, it acts like a magnet and it starts attracting your tribe to you and just as importantly, it pushes the people who are not going to be a good fit for you away. A magnet has two poles of equal strength, and a lot of people try to have sort of a weakly attracting thing that doesn’t annoy or push away anybody else. You got to dial up the strength of that magnet so that the right people… are really attracted to you and most of the other people probably think you’re nuts and that’s totally fine. That way you save all those sorts of weird wishy-washy maybe conversations and you end up doing a whole bunch of sales and then they want a price cut and then if you win them as a client, it’s a nightmare, blah, blah. Because you’re working with somebody that you’re not really supposed to be working with, right? If you’re on an airplane and they ask for a doctor, they’ll take anybody. But when you go into the hospital, you want the right specialist, and your customers want the specialist. So, use that positioning to make sure that the right people are in your waiting room, and then you’re going to have conversations in your specialty, which are conversations you enjoy having with somebody who actually wants to have that conversation and that’s how you have that fun dialogue that doesn’t feel like sales versus, I mean, any specialist can give the spiel about how what they do is so important and you would benefit from it, but nobody wants to hear that if they’re not the right patient. [15:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So, what’s your definition of positioning?
Reuben Swartz: That’s funny because I should really have like a crisp 10-second view of that. But it’s just who you help and how?
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. So, it’s going back to knowing your ideal prospect.
Reuben Swartz: Exactly.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, it all always starts with that. Okay, and then, you know, you talked earlier about referrals. How can people get more referrals?
Reuben Swartz: Well, it’s funny, I think a lot of it goes back to that positioning. People have this weak wishy-washy positioning because they think it’s going to cast a wide net, but in reality, it just makes you unreformable. People say, well, I’m a business coach and I help business owners who have business problems. Or it’s like, I’m a doctor who helps people with doctor problems. That’s great if you’re on an airplane, but it’s not so great in the rest of the world. So having that tight positioning. You want to be not the little bit of something possibly good for everybody. You want to be the 800-pound gorilla for your niche. And a lot of us are trying to compete, especially my tribe, right? Solo people, they think they’re in competition with these giant firms. They’re not. [17:02]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Reuben Swartz: They want to define their market such that they’re the 800-pound gorilla so that when somebody in their referral network comes across the right fit, it’s like boom, you need to talk to Nancy. And I know exactly what to say to introduce you. Now, the next thing that comes back to conversational selling is you must freak talk to your referral partners. And I say that with such vehemence because I neglected to do that for years and it was stupid. These should not be hard conversations. They should be fun conversations. But those referral networks are relationships that are built on conversations. You must talk to these people. [17:42]
Nancy Calabrese: And you know, lastly, I think a challenge most salespeople have, maybe most people have, is how do you follow up effectively? What’s your recommendation?
Reuben Swartz: Well, it’s going to depend of course on the person and what the nature of the follow-up is, but I think the mistakes I see made mostly are trying to automate that with email or other stuff that’s not actually a conversation.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Reuben Swartz: There’s a place for email marketing and automation, but when you’re in a sales cycle, you’re in a conversation-based context, and you need to talk to people. And the next thing is… not actually offering any value to the other person. So, just checking in what’s going on. And really that’s usually because you weren’t conscientious about taking notes about the last conversation that should lead naturally to the next thing, you’re going to ask in the follow-up conversation. [18:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Well.
Reuben Swartz: And this doesn’t mean you’re going to close 100% of people, but it’s like baseball. You can go from 300 to 400 and that’ll make a huge difference. And I think… A lot of this is just basic stuff. It’s not quote-unquote sales, but people put it under the quote-unquote sales umbrella and then they feel icky and they don’t do it. I’d like to think of it more as I just want to talk to people. And if I’ve got like notes in my CRM about here’s what we talked about and when we’re supposed to follow up and then I can follow up and it’s not just a hey, just checking in. It’s Hey, Nancy, remember you asked me to check in October about the blah, blah. Just want to let you know XYZ, right? And it’s just like you’re picking up where you left off. We evolved to be in these little tribes and villages or whatever, where you already knew everything about everybody pretty much. And instead, we’re in this virtual world where people are coming and going at crazy velocity, and you can’t keep track of it all in your head. You need some way to organize and follow up effectively. [19:40]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Yeah. And that goes back to the power and the importance of having the right CRM. Our time is up, and I could continue to talk and talk with you, but tell me, how do my people find you and learn more about what you sell, even though you don’t like selling?
Reuben Swartz: Oh, that’s right. Well, they can find me on LinkedIn. I think I’m one of the few Reuben Schwartz is around. You can find my podcast, Sales for Nerds at salesfornerds.io or wherever you listen to podcasts. And of course, you can find out more about the anti-CRM at mimiran.com. M-I-M-I-R-A-N.com.
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. Another great conversation with a great expert. And I suggest you all reach out to Reuben, check out his CRM. I mean, you need a CRM as, I guess, a home base to keep yourself organized. And he has a wonderful solution. So, Reuben, thank you so much for being on the show and for everyone out there. Make it a great sales day.
Reuben Swartz: Thanks for having me, Nancy.
Nancy Calabrese: Loved it. [20:49]
by Nancy Calabrese | Aug 9, 2023 | Podcast
About Atiba de Souza: Atiba is the CEO of Client Attraction Pros and Video Content Superman. His goal is to help you discover those moments and position content that will deliver a victory for your customers. For 25 years, he ran an exclusive agency that got regional and national brands ranked on page 1 of Google. He was doing Search Engine Optimization (SEO) before the term was even invented. But one day, Atiba realized that his agency was not growing because he was not applying what he did for his clients to his own brand. Atiba has been using a unique method of blending storytelling with search keywords for more than 15 years. He has ranked regional and national brands in the US on page one of Google. He’s also an award-winning marketer who has been featured on many renowned platforms, including Fox, USA Today, Times, CBS, and many more. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Atiba.
In this episode, Nancy and Atiba discuss the following:
- The importance of video marketing in the modern marketing world.
- The background of Atiba’s story of owning his agency.
- SEO is not just about Google Search.
- Using a method of blending storytelling with search keywords.
- How does a newbie get started in the video?
- The start of AI in 1992 and Atiba’s contribution.
- Tips on getting the attention of posting the video and catchy title.
- Is YouTube the only platform for posting videos?
Key Takeaways:
- The statistics say that almost 80% of business owners are going to watch a video before they make a purchase.
- Google right now wants to rank videos that solve people’s problems on page one.
- Concerning the video length, you need to talk long enough to answer the question and not a moment longer.
- The title of the video needs to be your question.
- The truth is that as your organization grows, you need both organic and paid video marketing, and they complement each other and work together.
- When doing a video, you want to think about your target audience and the pains they may be going through.
“Every network now has a search and an SEO component. All SEO means is that whoever owns a network, whoever has the data, wants to put that data in front of the right people. That’s all it is, getting your message in front of the right people. So this now starts to get into some of the synergies between where you are in the cold calling world and the sales world and what we do as well because I think it’s no secret that those who are super successful at doing cold calling aren’t the ones who call and say “Mr. and Mrs. Jones, this is Johnny, and I’m calling today from So and So Company, and let me tell you all about the features and benefits of our thing that you’ve never heard of before.” Those people aren’t successful, okay? ” – ATIBA
“ The way we look at it is there are three buckets that content falls into before someone’s willing to call you. And those buckets are WHY, HOW, and WHAY. When you first have a problem, you ask big philosophical questions, WHY-type questions. And you’re trying to figure out what’s going on and what my options are, and you’re looking at those types of things. Those are pain point questions. Okay, the next bucket is HOW-questions You should be doing the WHY-videos, the HOW-videos, and maybe 20% of the videos you create are WHAT-videos. And the WHAT-videos should say “Okay, so we’ve looked at the different factors that it would take for you to determine how many leads or how many leads you would get from a cold calling campaign. And we’ve analyzed how to build your lead list so that you can have better results and whatever else. And now if you’re looking for help, I can help you”. So, those are the three levels of content that we bucket into for you to create.” – ATIBA
“Video marketing is an umbrella term that has two segments to it, organic and paid. Just like digital marketing has two same segments to it. Organic video marketing is video marketing, which we’ve been talking about. You create a video, we’re gonna post it on YouTube and we’re gonna allow the algorithms to rank the video.Versus paid video marketing, or paid marketing for that matter, is when you take the content and you publish content and then you go to the network and say “Hey, I created this piece of content and I’m going to pay you to show it to this group of people.” Which one is better? It depends on your goal. If you are in a massive hurry, organic is not the way to go. Because organic takes time, okay? If budget is an issue, organic is the way to go because it spreads the cost out over time. Please, hear me, I did not say organic is less expensive. I say it spreads the cost out over time. The key difference is there.” – ATIBA
Connect with Atiba de Souza:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Atiba de Souza, CEO of Client Attraction Pros, a video-first content marketing agency, and digital marketer-certified partner. In other words, Atiba is the video content Superman who was killing search engine optimization, and SEO, before the term was even invented. Atiba has been using a unique method of blending storytelling with search keywords for more than 15 years. He has ranked regional and national brands in the US on page one of Google. He’s also an award-winning marketer who has been featured on many renowned platforms, including Fox, USA Today, Times, CBS, and many more. Welcome to the show, Atiba. I told you before we started, I need a lot of help in this area. [1:26]
Atiba: Nancy, well first, thanks for having me. I really, really appreciate being here. I look forward to learning from you as well because I think the reality is these two worlds live and should live together, not separate.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Interesting. All right. Let’s just jump in. Why is video marketing so important these days?
Atiba: It’s a great question. And the reality of life is video was coming as the future of marketing for quite some time. But there was something that happened in 2020. I forgot what it was called. Something that started with the word, the letter P, but that thing that happened in 2020 through 2022 accelerated. The need for video. And what was that? It was that people had a choice and their choice while they were stuck at home for those two years on their devices was, they could read, or they could watch. And overwhelmingly, humans across the globe chose to watch and they have not gone back yet. They want to consume content from you. Now, that all sounds cool and wonderful, but get this, get this, especially if in the world of business-to-business sales, the statistics say that almost 80% of business owners are going to watch a video before they make a purchase. [2:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Interesting. Where do you come up with those numbers?
Atiba: So, these are numbers that attract and there are tons and tons of studies. I can share some of them with you. There are tons of studies that attract these in the marketing space of how, especially in the B2B sector, how are decisions being made.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Interesting. So how, what’s been your journey to owning this agency? Did you just out of nowhere decide to do it? What’s your background?
Atiba: Yeah, so it wasn’t out of nowhere in that sense. But I started in really in 92, but truthfully, the company started in 96 with myself and two friends. And we were a computer consulting firm back then because back in 1996, that’s all people understood. And we wrote a search engine in 1996. [3:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh wow.
Atiba: And I’ve been in search and helping people get their message in front of their ideal customer using search ever since. Yeah. It’s been a few years.
Nancy Calabrese: Well, let me ask you, you know, SEO, when I think of SEO, I think about Google search. Is that the only one out there?
Atiba: Absolutely not. Every platform at this point has SEO built in. So, if you’re on Facebook and if you ever went to Facebook and you want to look for anything on Facebook, you did a search on Facebook, guess what you’re using? Facebook’s version of SEO. It’s not very good, but they have it, okay? Instagram is, the same thing, just much like Facebook. It’s not very good. It’s based on hashtags, but they have it. LinkedIn has SEO. TikTok. Get this, TikTok when they were created years ago said that they wanted to be an entertainment platform. A year and a half ago, they changed their mission to be a search platform. So, every network, Pinterest, I mean, you name it, every network now has a search and an SEO component. All SEO means is that whoever owns a network, whoever has the data wants to put that data in front of the right people. That’s all it is, getting your message in front of the right people. [5:25]
Nancy Calabrese: So in introducing you, you have been using a method of blending storytelling with search keywords. Tell us about that.
Atiba: Yes, so this now starts to get into some of the synergy between where you are in the cold calling world and the sales world and what we do as well because, you know, I think it’s no secret that those who are super successful at doing cold calling aren’t the ones who call and say Mr. and Mrs. Jones, this is Johnny, and I’m calling today from So and So Company, and let me tell you all about the features and benefits of our thing that you’ve never heard of before. Like, those people aren’t successful, okay? [6:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Totally agree.
Atiba: And we all know that, right? But the people who are successful are able to make a connection with the person that they’re calling. And I guarantee you, 99 times out of 100, that connection has something to do with the story. It has something to do with a journey that you took someone on of identifying a problem, either in common or that they have, and a solution, and being a guide of how you can help them. What we realized is that’s exactly what search engines want too. Because that solves problems. Listen, Nancy, in today’s world, people talk about this all the time, especially after the pandemic. They say now that the average adult American’s attention span is seven seconds. Okay? [7:08]
Nancy Calabrese: That’s not very good, is it?
Atiba: It’s not very good, however, how many of us will go to a movie theater and sit and watch a movie for two hours without looking at our phones? Like… a lot of us do it. So, therefore, our attention span is longer than that if…if the story is good.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. That’s really cool. All right, so how does a newbie like me get started in the video?
Atiba: That’s a great question, Nancy. And I get the pleasure of helping lots of newbies. So, I love this question for that purpose. Okay. And here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. Your customers are asking questions of you. You got to answer those questions. Here’s another place where there’s an intersection between, cold calling and video marketing specifically. Okay. I would also wager that the majority of the cold calls that are successful, short term or long-term, are because the person that you called recognized that they had a problem and was already looking or thinking about some sort of solution for it. Okay. [8:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, right, okay.
Atiba: Nobody calls you up and just says “Hey, want to buy a new car?”, And you just, and you weren’t thinking about buying a car “Oh yeah, let me just go buy a car”. It’s that, you know what, my car broke down and you call and said “Do I want to buy a new car? – Yeah, I want to buy a new car”. Right.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Atiba: And so, in today’s society, and it’s been so for really the last 10-11 years. When I have a problem, when you have a problem, what’s the first thing that you do?
Nancy Calabrese: I go online and try to figure it out.
Atiba: Exactly.
Nancy Calabrese: Do research.
Atiba: And so that’s where video marketing helps you so much. Because Google right now wants to rank videos that solve people’s problems on page one.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Atiba: So, imagine that you made a cold call that you thought was cold, but to your prospect, they’ve already watched the video of you.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Atiba: That’s the beauty.
Nancy Calabrese: All right, so what I’m hearing you say is you want to talk about when you’re doing video, you want to think about your target audience and about the pains they may be going through. Is that right?
Atiba: Yes.
Nancy Calabrese: And then you take that and then you talk about that in the video, right?
Atiba: Even more specifically, what are the questions that they ask? So, I’m going to put you on the spot, Nancy. I hope you don’t mind. [9:53]
Nancy Calabrese: No.
Atiba: What’s a question that your customers ask you?
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, they always ask how many appointments I am going to get.
Atiba: Fantastic. So, you’re thinking and so then you would create a video, right, and the video title would be “How many appointments would I get if I hired a cold calling specialist” or however you term yourself, okay? And then you record a video. You know, I get the question, how many appointments am I going to get if I hire a specialist to help me with my cold calling? And, truthfully, the answer is, and then answer the question.
Nancy Calabrese: The answer is you just never know until you hit the lead list. And there are so many different factors, size of the company, and the availability of the person at the time of the call. And at the time of the call, are they experiencing any of the pains that our customers can solve? [10:46]
Atiba: Yes. And so that’s what you would put in the video that you create.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow! You gave me a great idea now. This is awesome.
Atiba: That’s your video. That’s your answer.
Nancy Calabrese: When you build these videos, I think you talk also about thought leadership and why that’s important. Do you need to only address the pains? What other kind of content could you include?
Atiba: Yeah, so you can include other content, and that then starts to map to the customer journey. [11:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Atiba: And let me put this pretty succinctly for you. The way we look at it is there are three buckets that content falls into before someone’s willing to call you. Now, here’s what’s interesting. For you, it’s, oh, or before they’re willing to take your call. A little bit of a caveat there, right? In terms of the twist. And those buckets are why, how, and what. When you first have a problem, you ask big philosophical questions, why-type questions, okay?
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Atiba: And you’re trying to figure out what’s going on and what my options are, and you’re looking at those types of things. Those are pain point questions. Okay, the next bucket is how-questions. So, in that example that you gave just now is about the size of your lead list, then a question that’s going to come out of that is, well “How do I grow my lead list?” We’ll create a video about that. Okay, that’s now, it’s not a pain point per se, but it’s a how to question, and you can give practical tips on growing your lead list. [12:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Atiba: Okay, then there’s what-questions. The what-questions is what most people think they should be doing when they create a video, which is blah, call me, call me, call me. Okay, and you shouldn’t be doing that at all.
Nancy Calabrese: No.
Atiba: You should be doing the why videos, the how videos, and maybe 20% of the videos you create are what videos. And the what-videos then say, okay, so we’ve looked at the different factors that it would take for you to determine how many leads or how many leads you would get from a cold calling campaign. And we’ve analyzed how to build your lead list so that you can have better results and whatever else. And now if you’re looking for help, I can help you. If this sounds like, if it all makes sense, but it’s too much, I can help. Okay, that’s a very crude example, but those are the three levels of content that we bucket into for you to create, right? [13:42]
Nancy Calabrese: How long should a video be?
Atiba: Ooh, that is the question of questions that people ask. How long do I need to talk? Well, guess what? You need to talk long enough to answer the question and not a moment longer.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Atiba: Now, what does that mean?
Nancy Calabrese: Well, personally for me, I stay away from long podcasts and videos. I just, it’ll lose my attention.
Atiba: And so therefore that doesn’t fit you and it probably doesn’t fit your audience and that’s okay.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Atiba: And if you can answer the question in three minutes or 18 minutes, it doesn’t, it’s how long it takes you to answer the question and not a moment longer. See, here’s why. Because the algorithm knows, they’re smart enough, it’s always interesting to me when people look and say, oh, AI is new and it’s so cool and it’s so fresh. AI has been around forever. I started in AI in 1992. This isn’t new, y’all. [14:47]
Nancy Calabrese: Are you the father of everything?
Atiba: No, I’m not. I’m not the father, except for my three children.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Atiba: But AI was data analytics back then. And guess what? In 1992, we built an algorithm that predicted what word would come next based on the word that came before it. Guess what? That’s chat GPT. It’s a lot better than what we built in 92, no doubt. [15:08]
Nancy Calabrese: So, let’s talk about how to get the attention of posting the video. What about the title? Do you have recommendations for catching titles?
Atiba: The title needs to be your question. There are a lot of people who will tell you differently. And I’m going to tell you why they’re going to tell you differently and why I tell you what I tell you. There are two schools of thought here. The first school of thought is trying to get your views on YouTube, which is cool. And it makes you feel really good about yourself until you realize it didn’t actually put money in my bank.
Nancy Calabrese: Right?
Atiba: Now, I’m not against getting views on YouTube. Don’t hear me wrong, it’s important. And you can create catchy titles that will get people to click on them on YouTube, et cetera, et cetera. You can master YouTube SEO. You absolutely can. And you should. Here’s what I care about more though. I care about mastering Google SEO. Why? Because nobody goes to Google to search for something that they weren’t interested in. Nobody goes to Google to search for something that they aren’t interested in taking the next step of action. [16:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Atiba: And so, go ahead.
Nancy Calabrese: OK, the other question I have, so do you only put these on YouTube? Where else would you post them?
Atiba: So, everything lives on YouTube, okay? So, we start there. If you’re going to create a video, you post it on YouTube. Why? Because Google owns YouTube and Google is the largest search intent engine in the world and Google wants to rank more videos on page one. Where would they love to get those videos from the property that they own called YouTube? Now, do we get TikTok videos to rank on page one? Yeah, we do. Do we get videos from other platforms to rank on page one? Yeah, we do. But it’s way easier to get a YouTube video to rank than it is any other platform. Now, that being said, once the video is on YouTube, can you take it and cut it up and put a piece of it on Twitter, put some on Instagram, put some on LinkedIn? Absolutely. [17:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Great.
Atiba: Can you embed it in your blog on your website? Absolutely. And they all point back to… the YouTube channel.
Nancy Calabrese: Love it. So those are the snippets, right? That you’re referring to, cool. And last question, because we were running out of time. I heard that there were two terms, organic video marketing, and video marketing. What’s the difference?
Atiba: Great question. So, video marketing is an umbrella term that has two segments to it, organic and paid.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay?
Atiba: Okay, just like digital marketing has two segments to it, organic and paid. Organic video marketing, much like regular digital marketing that’s organic, is digital marketing, sorry, video marketing, where we’ve been talking about. You create a video, we’re gonna post it on YouTube. and we’re gonna allow the algorithms to rank the video. [18:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Atiba: So, we’re going to do all the right things to tell the algorithm to rank the video. Versus paid marketing, video marketing, or paid marketing for that matter, is when you take the content and you publish content and then you go to the network and sa “Hey, I created this piece of content and I’m going to pay you to show it to this group of people.”
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Atiba: Okay.
Nancy Calabrese: So I would think organic would be the way to go, isn’t it?
Atiba: That’s kind of the same as how many leads would you get. It depends, and here’s what it depends on. It depends on your goal. If you are in a massive hurry, organic is not the way to go. Because organic takes time, okay? If budget is an issue, organic is the way to go because it spreads the cost out over time. Please, hear me, I did not say organic is less expensive. I say it spreads the cost out over time. The key difference is there. The truth though is as your organization grows, you need both and they complement each other, and they work together. [19:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, Atiba, you are fascinating to me. How can my people find you?
Atiba: Well, I hope that they also find me fascinating, and thank you for that compliment. I appreciate that. But I probably opened some things for you that make you say, hmm, and that leads you to some more questions. Well, guess what? I kind of like to answer questions. That’s kind of my motif, right? Oh, and everything that we’ve been talking about so far. So, here’s what I would love for you to do. Go to meetatiba, that’s A-T-I, B’s and boy, A, dot com. That’s going to take you directly to my LinkedIn. Go to LinkedIn, connect with me, and send me a message. Let’s chat.
Nancy Calabrese: So, people take advantage of this. First, I want to thank you. I mean, I told you I was going to learn a lot in this conversation, and I have, and you piqued my interest. And everyone out there, you know, take advantage of this expert. Not only is he learning in an area that we could probably all improve on, but he’s also a funny guy. And you know, you made me smile throughout this whole time at T, but I hope you’ll come back and visit. [20:45]
Atiba: Absolutely.
Nancy Calabrese: Good.
Atiba: And thank you.
Nancy Calabrese: Well, everyone out there, have a great sales day, and we’ll see you next time. [20:52]
by Nancy Calabrese | Aug 8, 2023 | Podcast
About Mark Anthony: Mark Anthony is the Founder of Training for Success. For over 25 years, Mark has helped professionals, government institutions, corporate sales, and customer service teams worldwide find solutions to real-world challenges, leading to drastic sales, productivity, and management improvements. Mark started his first business at 19 and when he wasn’t paid his commission, he competed with that firm and took over their offices 5 years later. He has since built 7 and 8-figure businesses and loves to help salespeople create selling breakthroughs with an easy-going service-first sales philosophy. Mark is the author of the #1 best seller, Join The 7 Figure Club. He has lectured on six continents as well as over 40 states including Alaska and Hawaii. He is a top-rated speaker at corporate sales meetings, conferences, and Universities. His excellent track record has meeting planners and HR professionals re-book him regularly. In addition to speaking engagements, Mark is published in numerous business publications and has appeared on many radio & TV business programs including CNN-FN & CBS News. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Mark.
In this episode, Nancy and Mark discuss the following:
- The phenomenon of an easygoing service-first sales philosophy.
- Questions that can help callers feel or learn if they are natural-born salespeople.
- Making it easy to reach enough prospects for sales reps.
- The ways of filling the pipeline with no cost.
- The advantage of virtual networking.
- A couple of things you need to do to get referrals.
- 2 questions that uncover the needs of prospects’ family members
Key Takeaways:
- If you’re looking to get a great income, you don’t have to be a natural-born salesperson to be super successful at sales.
- They need your product, but you must speak to the decision maker and even if you’re speaking to the decision maker and they need you, you have got to focus on people who can afford your product or your service.
- Ask for referrals and you put yourself in the community where you can deliver value.
- Safety is important if you’re hitting success in sales, success in life also schedules amazing experiences.
- You’re working to build your life and to build experiences because money is only going to give you experiences, you can’t do anything with the actual pieces of paper.
- Sales is easy if you are focused not on yourself, but on the other person.
“A lot of people are afraid of sales, and I always tell them “Don’t be afraid of sales. If you like helping people if you believe in the value that you deliver”, and everyone says “Yes” to that, then enter the space from that mindset. And when you’re just there to serve people and you do that truly, genuinely it resonates with everybody. And so, when you’re doing that you’re not a salesperson because that has some unfortunately negative connotations. Be service first, be easygoing and people will want to talk to you” – MARK
“ You know, we’re all stopping for breakfast, we’re all stopping for lunch. At some point, you make that time count and reach out to people to get together and learn about them. And I do find working is by far, one of the least expensive to do. I consider it, free is actually going to fundraising and community events. Yes, you may need to pay for them. But I want to be a contributor to my community. Anyway. So, if I’m going to a Sierra Club meeting or event or I’m going to a Chamber of Commerce meeting or something in between, I’m going there to meet people because I just like meeting people and I like learning about them and helping them. And that goes back to your very first question. You don’t need to be focused on sales, you need to be just focused on people, and most-of-us-like people.” – MARK
“There were sometimes when I got out of breath. But you know what? That was very much a metaphor to me, for moving business forward. I knew exactly where I wanted to go, and I kept doing it one step at a time. Most people would have gone up the first 300ft and stopped because they would have gotten out of breath. It would have gotten hard. They would have lost patience. The other thing, I went with a couple of buddies who are younger than me. I joke I’m born in a different year, but I am the same age as them. But they were younger and so their pace was faster. But what you do in life to really get to that seven-figure breakthrough that you want is you got to know where you’re going to go, and you then need to keep pushing yourself at your pace and a little bit beyond that pace. And so, they got there faster than I did because they trained differently.” – MARK
Connect with Mark Anthony:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation! Today we’re speaking with Mark Anthony, Founder of Training for Success. For over 25 years, Mark has helped professionals, government institutions, corporate sales, and customer service teams worldwide find solutions to real-world challenges, leading to drastic sales, productivity, and management improvements. Mark started his first business at 19 and when he wasn’t paid his commission; he competed with that firm and took over their offices 5 years later. He has since built 7 and 8-figure businesses and loves to help salespeople create selling breakthroughs with an easy-going service-first sales philosophy. He is the author of the #1 best seller, Join The 7 Figure Club. Welcome to the show, Mark! Let’s get started! [1:27]
Mark Anthony: Thank you, Nancy. It’s really a pleasure. I love your podcast and just love helping salespeople and business owners. So, let’s get right down to it.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, let’s do it. So, what is an easygoing service-first sales philosophy?
Mark Anthony: You know, a lot of people are afraid of sales, and I always tell them “Don’t be afraid of sales. If you like helping people if you believe in the value that you deliver”, and everyone says “Yes” to that, then enter the space from that mindset. And when you’re just there to serve people and you do that truly, genuinely it resonates with everybody. And so, when you’re doing that you’re not a salesperson because that has some unfortunately negative connotations. Be service first, be easygoing and people will want to talk to you.
Nancy Calabrese: Well, with that in mind, I mean what questions can help people feel or learn if there are natural-born salespeople? I mean, are there any natural-born salespeople out there? [2:41]
Mark Anthony: There, there absolutely are. I mean as a little kid, you know, my mom always joked I was one of those. But if you’re, you know, looking to get a great income, you don’t have to be a natural-born salesperson to be super successful at sales. If you’re a business owner, it’s too hard to find. You know the young Nancy who is probably a natural-born salesperson. So, what I do to help people find the person who is geared towards sales and may not even know it, I tell the managers. I tell people who are even sure about themselves to throw away the resume that says you weren’t into sales your whole career. Instead, when you’re interviewing someone, ask them about how they influenced people at a young age. And they say, well, in college I did this, no, no, no, I mean at a young age, even before high school. Like, tell me where you were convincing people or getting people to follow your idea, and the people who have the ability to sell will tell you how. They started the lemonade stand as a little kid. We’re super successful at it, selling their lemonade for a dollar when the other kids were trying to sell it for $0.50. And why were you able to do that? Well, I smiled, I said “Hello Sir”, as you were. As they were driving by, I waved to the people and then they pulled over and stop their car. You know, all of those are our natural sales skills or just people skills that let people sell. So, when you get people to notice, wait a minute. I can talk to folks, right? I can talk to folks very naturally. Then they’re able to sell naturally. [4:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. I never thought of it that way. I’m trying to think as you’re saying it. I’m trying to think, well, Gee, what did I do? But I have to think.
Mark Anthony: I’ll give you one note that I did. My mother still teases me about it to this day. I probably had like a dollar for a little bag of toy soldiers. And so, I bought like the little bag that they had for a dollar, which had maybe say, 10 army men in it, and I opened it up. I sold four of them to the other kids in class for 1/4 a piece, got my dollar back and had six, and then repeated the process. [5:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you’re natural. That’s for sure. So, a lot of reps find it hard to reach enough prospects. What’s the solution or what kind of adjustment should be made?
Mark Anthony: Well, there, there are two parts to that. There’s not being able to find enough prospects and not being able there and being afraid to call enough prospects. I’m going to start with the fact that someone has enough prospects, but they’re just not making the calls. They get that call reluctance, or they or they just get too busy to do it. You know, I got other high-value activities. Let’s just say when you close a sale you get $1000 and to get that $1000 you need to reach out to 10 prospects. What I do is I don’t count the one person who gave me the sale as $1000 and the other people as zero rejection, difficulty, challenge, and all those crazy stories that get into our heads. Instead, I say count every one of them equal to $100. So, I call up Joe and Joe hangs up the phone on me and I call up Bill, and Bill says I never want to hear from you. I could easily stop and go on to another activity and you have gotten 0. I count every one of them as $100. And then terms, it’s the first person I call, terms, it’s the 10th person I call in each case. That makes me want to call on the abundance of prospects in my marketplace. Of course, they need to be qualified prospects. They tell this to business owners all the time. They need your product, but you must speak to the decision maker and even if you’re speaking to the decision maker and they need you, you got to focus on people who can afford your product or your service. [7:02]
Nancy Calabrese: Totally agree. I love that outlook. So, every call is worth money, right?
Mark Anthony: Yes, it is. It is 100%. This is the case, everyone.
Nancy Calabrese: I love it.
Nancy Calabrese: So, what are some ways of filling the pipeline you state that cost almost nothing? How is that possible?
Mark Anthony: There’s again an abundance and people look at that, it’s actually a big piece of what I talk about in the book. And what they need to do is go out to networking events. Every community has, has a rotary event. It’s the largest in the world. So go to Rotary and go there again with that “Hey, I’m a friendly guy. I want to learn about you and, and see how I might be able to help you with the community”, right? They want to speak to you. There’s uh business networking groups, one of the biggest in the country, but you got to pay to participate, but just a small, small fee is Business Network International. I prefer to create my own group, right? Ask, you know, three or four other businesspeople that you know, are good “Hey, let’s all get together for breakfast. Let’s all bring a friend, and every meal could be a business opportunity.” You know, we’re all stopping for breakfast, we’re all stopping for lunch. At some point, you make that time count and reach out to people to get together and learn about them. And I do find working is by far, one of the least expensive to do. I consider it, free is actually going to fundraising and community events. Yes, you may need to pay for them. But I want to be a contributor to my community. Anyway. So, if I’m going to a Sierra Club meeting or event or I’m going to a Chamber of Commerce meeting or something in between, I’m going there to meet people because I just like meeting people and I like learning about them and helping them. And that goes back to your very first question. You don’t need to be focused on sales, you need to be just focused on people, and most of us like people. [9:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Well, I hope to feel that way otherwise, why exist?
Mark Anthony: Exactly!
Nancy Calabrese: OK. So, what about virtual networking?
Mark Anthony: Virtual networking There is again an abundance of things that you can do. So many people want to gather a group of people via a tool such as, Zoom being the most common. Now, it’s basically, you know, become part of our vocabulary and you know, suggest that you get together and meet with people. It doesn’t have to be people that you’re necessarily trying to sell. Instead, it could be people that you want to create a focus group. Let’s all learn what the main trend is and invite people to come to your focus group or your research group. And while they’re talking about what they uh are challenged by needs, come out and needs are something you can solve. Sometimes I solve the needs of people which are not something related to what I’m selling. But when I’m seen as a problem solver that leads to my favorite free way of getting leads, which is referrals, right? So, everything else I said was just talking about you getting known and you establish, establishing yourself as someone who gives value. And when you’re doing that, you deserve to get referrals. That is the number one way to get leads for free and to get referrals. There are a couple of things you need to do. [11:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. What do you have to do?
Mark Anthony: Show up show up give value. You do that. People like you, they’re going to say “Hey, I have a friend, you should call”, but that’s not enough to be, you know, a seven-figure producer. The other one I had to tease people all the time and I would, I would go through the process. We had a little bit more time but it’s actually asking for the referral. It’s like “Nancy, you know so many people in my industry who could you refer me to?” And if you give me a referral, it’s sales 101. It’s, it’s seven-figure building 101. And who else do you know? In other words, ask and ask again, and if you don’t know anyone today or you can’t think of anyone right at this moment you’ve just told me that I should ask you again. So once again, ask again, I might ask you a month for now. It might be 3 months from now. But you do that, you look for referrals. Ask for referrals and you put yourself in the community where you can deliver value. And it does not have to be value pockets where it’s just about selling but you get business. [12:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, in our group any time we have a prospect on the phone, we always ask for the referral at the end whether they are interested and moving forward, or if they are not. And I think people would be surprised just to see the power of asking. People want to genuinely help other people. So, I think it raises an awesome point. I want to go back to what you said just a moment ago about the needs and uncovering the needs. You say there are 2 questions that uncover the needs of prospects’ family members. What are the questions? [12:55]
Mark Anthony: It’s so simple and everyone listening, really, please write these two things down and it turns you into a powerful closer. The very first question is what’s most important to you in selecting blank? If you’re selling catering services, what’s most important to you in selecting the right caterer? Just insert what it is. But the thing is, people will ask that question, but they don’t ask the second question. And see, when you ask the first one, like using restaurants as an example, what’s most important to you in a restaurant? And everyone says food, great service, and a reasonable price or quality. Like duh, you wouldn’t go if you didn’t get those three things. But you do need to ask how you define whatever it is that you’re selecting. How do you define great service and know it’s been achieved? Or how do you define, a quality moving company? Let’s say you’re selling moving and storage services. How do you define a quality company and know that they’re delivering the value that you said you want? And it’s in that second question where they define, and they never even stop to think about it. Now you get how they process value, their evidence, and the procedure for knowing if it makes sense to move forward. So, what’s most important to you in the blank is question number one. Great, thank you. How do you define whatever it is you just told me? And it’s in the definition that you get. [14:33]
Nancy Calabrese: It’s not the definition because the definition is going to vary from person to person.
Mark Anthony: And you sell to individuals. [14:41]
Nancy Calabrese: All right, so you have a lot of crazy stories. My audience loves stories. What do you want to talk about?
Mark Anthony: Might as well talk about this past weekend. I just got back from Jackson Hall, and I’ll relate it to sales as well. So, most people take the chair and lift it down. I was at the base of Jackson Hole Mountain on their expedition slope that’s one of their steepest double black diamonds. And hiked up it. It’s about a mile and a half up. It’s a 1500-foot vertical ascent that mile and a half. So that’s a steep slope. [15:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow.
Mark Anthony: I can’t run up it anymore. There was a day maybe when I could, but that’s pretty but I tricked up it one step at a time. There were sometimes when I got out of breath. But you know what? That was very much a metaphor to me, for moving business forward. I knew exactly where I wanted to go, and I kept doing it one step at a time. Most people would have gone up the first 300ft and stopped because they would have gotten out of breath. It would have gotten hard. They would have lost patience. The other thing, I went with a couple of buddies who are younger than me. I joke I’m born in a different year, but I am the same age as them. But they were younger and so their pace was faster. But what you do in life to really get to that seven-figure breakthrough that you want is you got to know where you’re going to go, and you then need to keep pushing yourself at your pace and a little bit beyond that pace. And so, they got there faster than I did because they trained differently. They were of different ages. I met them at the top and I got there too. And so that was just a great time trekking up. And I have a bunch of friends whom I helped; I was more supportive of them because they did formal training. They went up and down a mountain 19 times in about 30 hours. So, they turned it into an ultra-endurance event. [17:02]
Nancy Calabrese: How long did it take you to get to the top?
Mark Anthony: It took me about an hour and 20 minutes. And so, I could have just kept repeating the process just as long as them and I might have slept a little bit less and I would have done it. And another fun part of the weekend was I did what’s called a Via Ferrata. So, at the very top of the lift, there’s more mountain and there they had cables there and you have a harness, and you clip into the cable and you’re literally scrambling up the face of the mountain doing a bare climb. But if you slip, that would be very bad news. So, you are clipped in and then you get caught after dropping 3ft or so. Safety is important, I believe if you’re hitting success in sales, success in life also schedules amazing experiences. And whatever it is that you define. Mine are a little bit more extreme than some folks, but maybe it is that you want to take that trip to Italy or some other place that you’ve always wanted to go to put it on the calendar, set a financial amount that you’re going to put aside to do that, the time to do that. And then you got to make sure that when you’re working, you’re working to build your life and to build experiences because money is only going to give you experiences. You can’t do anything with the actual pieces of paper. [18:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Tell me something that is true, that very few people believe is true.
Mark Anthony: That sales process is easy. And very few people believe that’s the case. But if you are focused not on yourself, but you are focused on the other person, sales really do become easy serve people. Like, sales managers don’t always like when I say this, but I’m like if you are not achieving the goal of your prospect, if you are not positive you could help your prospect, you shouldn’t sell to them. We want to sell everybody. It’s like, no, your people will be so excited. They will feel such solid integrity. Pushing someone to buy. If they know it’s a good fit. Right. You would encourage your grandmother to take her medicine and you would nag her to take her medicine if you knew it was good for her. You can push when you know it’s good for somebody. And people don’t believe sales is easy, but it’s always been for me easy. But I’ve always only focused on wanting to deliver value, too. [20:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. And you focus on them, not you. I can go on and on I can’t believe we’re up in time. Where can my people find you, Mark?
Mark Anthony: They can learn so many of the tools that I like to share at jointthesvenfigureclub.com. That’s my book. It is packed with so many tools that have taken many businesses to seven figures. My own businesses to eight figures. Join the sevenfigureclub.com. I love answering questions. You could reach me through that site. And Mark Anthony high performance on Instagram is another way to reach me as well. [20:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Love it. So, does anybody mistake you for a singer?
Mark Anthony: Yes. I’ve signed autographs for them. I really have. I’ve been invited to some exciting events, like one with President Clinton, and when I was being invited, this young lady was about 10ft from me, and she heard, yes, this is Mark Anthony. I’d love to go to that event with the President, and I have a similar look to him. I’m better looking, but that’s what I do, have a similar look. And she thought I was the other guy, so I signed an autograph for him. [21:25]
Nancy Calabrese: That is funny. Oh, you are a blast. So, you’re going to have to come back because I know we could go on and on. And you offer such great insight into the amazing world of sales. So, thank you for your time. And everyone takes advantage of reaching out to this guru. He knows his stuff, and I’m guessing you’ll have a chuckle or two along the way. So, again, Mark, thank you and everyone make it a great sales day. [21:25]
