by Nancy Calabrese | Nov 14, 2023 | Podcast
About Gary Garth: Gary Garth is a serial entrepreneur, Founder & CEO of 360° Solution for Behavioral Health Center elev8.io, Author of ‘The Zero to 100 Million Sales Blueprint ‘book, and ‘The Goals, Grit & Greatness’ Planner. He also leverages his resources via Great Dane Ventures as an angel investor, helping high-potential startups to go to market, scale, and become profitable via 360 degrees sales and marketing support, incubator programs, advisory services and proprietary technology engineered to empower entrepreneurs. He has been featured in Inc., Forbes, Success, and many other prominent publications. A serial entrepreneur since 2002, Gary has started and successfully exited six companies, including large outbound sales call centers, radio advertising networks, and an award-winning, eight-figure digital marketing agency. Born in Denmark, Gary now lives and works in Medellín, Colombia. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Gary.
In this episode, Nancy and Gary discuss the following:
- The reasons why Gary pursues the behavioral industry.
- Gary’s view on why less than 10% of addicted get treatment.
- The challenges Gary sees right now in the behavioral health marketing industry.
- The best advice Gary gives to the centers is to reach the people who need the therapy.
- Key factors that inspired Gary to write ‘The Zero to 100 Million Sales Blueprint ‘.
- How Gary addresses the challenge that fewer than 10% achieve revenue beyond a million in his book.
- The top 25 sales metrics that everybody should monitor and improve.
Key Takeaways:
- People must make the decision that they want to recover.
- The main challenge is combining the right strategies and having the right team to execute.
- If you don’t have the financial means, maybe give them some equity in the company to ensure sales get off the ground.
- An obvious metric is to understand your lifetime value.
- When you start measuring those metrics, you’ll identify where you can optimize your marketing and sales process.
“Believe it or not, Nancy, there are 20+ million in America alone that are seeking treatment or need treatment, but there are only a couple of million that receive treatment every year. So less than 10%. So that, for me, is wrong. That statistic. The opiate crisis is killing more people than any other means in the US: homicide, traffic incidents, everything combined doesn’t even surpass opiate. So, I said, this is a way to help facilities that may not be at full capacity because they’re not using the right marketing or sales strategies. If I can apply my skillset there, I can help people out of suffering and help that business grow. So that’s why I focus on behavioral health.” – GARY.
“ But I never really came across a book where it’s like “Here’s a blueprint.” If you’re starting a company, if you’re running a sales team, if you want to scale, if you want to go from zero to a hundred million, here’s a step-by-step process that you can follow. So that’s why I ended up plus for the pages because I said, “I need to include everything needed.” I had to document what was working. And I always recommend to readers that you don’t have to read it from end to end. You can just cherry-pick a chapter on the given stage you’re in, or the early wind, and leverage that by just reading it and applying it, then moving forward.” – GARY.
Connect with Gary Garth:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Gary Garth, the founder and CEO of Elevate.io, a serial entrepreneur since 2002, Gary has started and successfully exited six companies, including large outbound sales call centers, radio advertising networks, and an award-winning eight-figure digital marketing agency. Gary now spends all his energy on changing the game in the behavioral health industry by helping addiction treatment and mental health centers across the US with growing their facilities. He is also the author of the Zero to a Hundred Million Sales Blueprint book and the Goals, grit, and Greatness Planner. It’s going to be a really engaging conversation, Gary. Welcome to the show.
Gary Garth: Thank you so much for having me, Nancy. [1:21]
Nancy Calabrese: I’m excited. So, you know, let’s just jump right into the behavioral industry. What made you want to, you know, pursue that route?
Gary Garth: Oh, great question. I know that’s kind of a change in career trajectory, a vertical focus per se. It’s for many personal reasons, to be frank. I’ve been a serial entrepreneur, as you mentioned since I was 19, had several businesses. I’ll be frank, especially in the early days, I was very revenue, profit-oriented. I was in it for the glory, the significance, et cetera, like many other entrepreneurs probably was fortunate to become a millionaire with the first or second company and tasted a little bit of glory then. So that kind of faded away after a while and I just remember waking up one day with my last company. We were successful and had thousands of clients and hundreds of millions of managements and I just looked myself in the mirror and said, how am I? Making a difference. You know, yes, we’re creating a lot of jobs. Yes, we’re creating impact. Yes, we’re helping businesses from that perspective. But I was looking at like, who are our clients? And a lot of them were like, personal injury lawyers or finance loan companies, you know? And I felt like, you know, I’m just adding money to technology companies. Maybe that doesn’t pay tax per se and helping lawyers with the next lottery coupon case that they’re pursuing, how’s that leaving a legacy? And simultaneously with that, not to go into a rant, I had a friend who died from drugs and addiction and overdoses, and all those experiences coupled together, I kind of saw the other side of the coin, a lot of entrepreneurs and successful executives that they typically have to cope with the stress through addictions, alcohol, drugs, etc. So, I said, okay, let me try to put all my skills, my resources, and my experiences into an industry where I can help close the gap. Believe it or not, Nancy, there are 20 million something plus in America alone that are seeking treatment or need treatment, but there are only a couple of million that receive treatment every year. So less than 10%. So that for me is wrong. That statistic. The opiate crisis is killing more people than any other means in the US. You know, homicide, traffic incidents, everything combined doesn’t even surpass opiate. So, I said, this is a way where I can, you know, help facilities that are maybe not at full capacity because they’re not using the right marketing tactics, the right sales strategies. If I can apply my skillset there, I can help people out of suffering and help that business grow. So that’s why I focus on behavioral health. [4:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, why do you think there are so few that are getting treatment?
Gary Garth: Ah, great question. There are a lot of reasons for that. People must be, make the decision that they want to recover. Maybe they still have experience in mental health challenges that they haven’t, and that’s deviating them away. But I think a lot of it is because of the options in the market, it’s complicated. It’s almost, it’s very political. You must have the right insurance to get accepted. There are a lot of people who want treatment but can’t necessarily get it. And, you know, addiction is not something to take easy. That’s a disease that is very difficult to combat. So, for all those reasons, it’s, uh, it’s something that needs extra attention, extra focus. [5:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So, what are some of the challenges right now in the behavioral health marketing industry?
Gary Garth: Yeah, great question. Great question. Because there’s such a big demand, there’s a lot of… The competition is fierce. I’ve worked with most industries like I mentioned, legal, technology companies, finance, typically are those kinds of industries where you say, okay, that’s a tough market to enter. That’s where your cost per click on Google Ads, something $100, but I have not to date seen anything as competitive as behavioral health. I was even caught a little bit by surprise when entering the space, a while ago. So, the number one challenge for these facilities is to acquire patients at a profitable rate and stay at full centers, you know, maximizing the occupancy rate. Some centers pay tens of thousands of dollars per patient, that’s when it doesn’t go right. And so, getting a winning strategy that’s both consistent and predictable and gives them the right margin so that they can grow and cover the high operational costs, it’s not easy. So, you try to rank for something with SEO organic, good luck with that, that’s going to take a while and you have to sharpen your pencil to get ahead of that. Google Ads, you can easily spend a fortune. So, it’s about combining the right strategies and having the right team execute that. And that’s easier said than done. That’s why I entered this space. [6:52]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow. So, what’s the best advice you can give them or the centers to reach the people who need the therapy?
Gary Garth: Yes, so I think there’s no silver bullet to give you the short answer. It’s a combination of different strategies and tactics that when coupled together work effectively. I would say one thing that I’m noticing a pattern, not only in behavioral health, but all industries, but especially, Asina, maybe at a higher rate is that conversations are not as numbers driven as they should be. Many of our clients and prospects, you know, they know which insurance providers they work with, they know the reimbursement rates, they know all those different details. But you know, when I start asking them how many calls you get, how many of those were V.O.B. qualified so that they had the right benefits, how many touch points before they turn into an admission? What is your admission conversion rate? What is the app? You know, all those different metrics, so to speak, that are mission-critical. If you want to optimize your marketing and sales process, you have to focus on the numbers and the data. I was saying, God would trust everybody else to bring data. Unless you have that data down, forget it. You’re already losing because the savvy competitors most certainly know the numbers, and they’re looking to hire people who can help them prove those metrics. So that’s the number one recommendation. In my book, I have a chat that is devoted to that, where it’s like top 25 metrics, sales metrics that everybody should monitor and improve, right? Because most executives, you know, they have the annual growth strategy session, they go offsite and they create a plan of action and say, here’s our KPIs for the quarter for the year, and here’s our growth targets. But you know, the magic happens in the metrics where you monitor that, you know this, I’m preaching to the choir in terms of, you know, measuring your sales activities, touchpoints, and you know, where can the process be optimized? Where can you put in coaching efforts that can enable your team to outshine? So that would be the number one focus, I would say. [9:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Interesting. Well, let’s pivot to, you just mentioned your book, the zero to 100 million sales blueprints. What motivated you to write it? And I want to talk, I want you to expand on some of those 25 metrics you just mentioned.
Gary Garth: Yes. So, in the last couple of years of my last project, we focused a lot on channel sales. There are channel sales, and direct sales, so we focused on enabling other companies to sell for us and sell our products. And in that process, I was head of partnerships, so I am leading that program, that initiative. So, I would be talking with prospective resellers, onboarding them, and enabling them to sell. Also training their team, like for instance, they would be selling another product, they must learn how to sell our product and how to make, you know, there’s a lot of things to consider there. So, I got a firsthand view of how many other agencies, 200 to be specific, were running their sales teams. And I met with a lot of them and coached them, et cetera. You know, throughout those couple of years, every time I had a session, they were like, there was some golden nuggets, Gary, you dumped on us right there. Is there anywhere I can find it? Do you have a book, or is it a blog post, or anywhere I can see that? And, you know, after hearing that several times, I was like, I should maybe start documenting all of this. And, because I had the blessing of working with some very smart people that I learned a lot from at big companies like Google, and Microsoft, but…Also all our partner agencies, also my former employees. And I wanted to take all that accumulated knowledge and put it into a book. I’m an avid reader. I think most entrepreneurs or top performers are. But I found that you know, while we could have a whole episode on the greatest sales books, there’s a lot out there that I could recommend. I found that most of them are maybe a little bit, most of them are subject matter specific, how to run your sales team, right? How to be a sales manager, how to close deals, sales psychology, and different topics like that, that are great. But I never really came across a book where it’s like, okay, here’s a blueprint. If you’re starting a company, if you’re running a sales team, if you want to scale, if you want to go from zero to a hundred million, here’s a step-by-step process that you can follow. So that’s why I ended up plus for the pages because I said, I need to include everything needed. I had to document what was working. And I always recommend to readers that you don’t have to read it from end to end. You can just cherry-pick a chapter on the given stage you’re in, or the early wind, and leverage that by just reading that given chapter and applying it, and then moving forward. [12:06]
Nancy Calabrese: I think that’s a great recommendation because going through an entire book, and I have a whole slew of books on my desk, it just takes time. And I think by, you know, looking at the chapters that are appealing to you right now today is a great way to kind of scale it for yourself. Now, I’ve read, and you state, you know, it’s common knowledge that 80% of companies cease to exist within 18 months or less, and less than 10% ever make it beyond a million in revenue. So how does your book address that?
Gary Garth: Yes. Uh, incredible statistics, right? I address it in the way of elaborating on that point, that you need to put sales first. I like that. So, I have it, I have it as one of my first, the first chapters, uh, label it. I have 99 problems, but sales aren’t one. Uh, because if, if you, if you don’t have a revenue problem if you have sufficient clients and sales, then most likely you can have, but most likely you don’t have a cash flow problem. So, you can buy yourself out of problems. You can hire a consultant to solve this. You can add some software. You can hire extra employees. You have the means. The number one reason why companies cease to exist is when you boil it down that they fail to acquire enough customers and revenue. So that’s where I put some, like put some, shine some light. Like if you’re an entrepreneur and you’re a great, say, engineer or you’re a great craftsman in whatever profession services you’re offering, but you’re not a salesperson, then double down on your strength and delegate that to either a partner or a key hire. Find somebody who can execute that mission-critical task for your company’s existence, right? And that’s why the book also got so successful because you may have to go out and offer stock option plans. So, I leave a section for that, like, out of, you know, board key employees that are, you know, of high value. So, if you don’t have the financial means, maybe give them some equity in the company, just to make sure that sales get off the ground. So, it’s just putting sales first. [14:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. You know, I’m often blown away when I hear the companies let go of salespeople, not for performance, but for other reasons. And I don’t get why. It doesn’t make any sense to me at all. So, let’s go back to the 25 metrics. Why don’t you share a few of them with the audience?
Gary Garth: Yeah. So, I mean, an obvious one is obviously to understand your, for instance, your lifetime value. Because that dictates how much can you invest in marketing, you can better understand areas of opportunity, for instance, what your, metric is what is your same-store growth rate which is basically how are you able to grow your existing customer base. The terminology originates from the retail market per se, but it’s good. I worked with, the first time I was introduced to it was when I worked with, I worked very closely with Google’s channel sales team, and they kept talking about these acronyms as they watched your SSG has gone up and I didn’t want to sound stupid. I was like, what the hell is SSG? But you’re doing phenomenal, great, I’m happy I’m doing great, but I don’t understand what’s going on. So that was a key metric for them because they acknowledge that we can’t just acquire more and more customers. You know, at one point there’s a diminishing return in terms of how much you invest in sales and customer acquisition. So, you’ve got to start growing your customers. So that’s another key metric I would say. On the other side of that coin is customer churn, right? So, the cancellation rate is again tied up with lifetime value. That’s one of the key metrics you can improve that can significantly impact profitability. But then there are also a lot of subsequent ones like the obvious one lead to conversion rate, demo to close rate, deal loss rate, and proposal of win rate. When you start measuring those metrics, you’ll start to identify where in your marketing and sales process can you optimize. Let me give you a very good example. As I work with a lot of companies, I used to do a lot of consulting for SaaS technology and marketing agencies, all before going into behavioral health. And a lot of them are overly obsessed with booking meetings and getting demos, right? Because that’s like a core metric, like how many times can you get? But they’re not looking necessarily at the subsequent, like the close rate or the demo to close ratio, you know, which opportunities, how many opportunities it took to book that meeting. So, understanding all of those is where you can see where you should add additional coaching resources. If the closing ratio sucks, it’s because you don’t have like a demo process that will outline the suggested steps and a good flow, you’re not maybe incorporating the discovery call questions into the demo questions. Very often, I’m sure, you tried this, you want to sign up for some software, you got to speak with an SDR who’s had to qualify you that is the main objective. He wants to just qualify you. So, you’re giving him, you’re giving him 50 minutes of your time and you’re answering all his freaking questions. You’re a little bit borderline annoyed. And then you jump on the call with the account executive and the mother, F, sorry, excuse my French, just not even taking notes. And he’s asking the same questions. Like I just want to jump out of a building when that stuff happens, and it happens more often than you can believe. So, mesh right? So just measure those metrics and you know that’s where you know where you can get some quick wins. [18:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, Gary, I can’t believe we’re out of time already. You’re fascinating. Yeah, what is the, like the one, what’s the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Gary Garth: Thank you. Yeah, this was fast. One takeaway, oh that’s a tough one. Well, let’s put it like this, put sales first, I would say. And then that’s why I fake it.
Nancy Calabrese: You and I agree. Agree with him. Oh, wow. So how can my audience find you?
Gary Garth: Yes, I’m on social media, obviously, Instagram, LinkedIn, etc. You can search under my name, Gary Garth. If you want to read a little bit more on my current project, you can go to elevate.io. On that website, there are also links to my book, the Zero to 100 Million Sales Blueprint. You can also find that on Amazon alternatively. And the same goes for the Goals, Great and Greatest Planet that we mentioned briefly. There are links to both products on the Elevate.io website or my social media. [19:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. By the way, it’s elev8.io, not Elevate. All right. Well, listen, you’ll have to come back on. We’ll want to pick up where we left off. We didn’t get into the planner, so we didn’t have time, but everyone out there, look Gary up, download his book, and buy his book. He has great ideas.
Gary Garth: Good point. I love to be. Let’s do it.
Nancy Calabrese: Gary, I so enjoyed getting to know you and hope you will come back real soon.
Gary Garth: Likewise, Nancy, and you bet. You just say it, I’ll be there.
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. I love it. And everyone makes it a great sales day. [20:18]
by Nancy Calabrese | Nov 7, 2023 | Podcast
About Kevin Snow: Kevin is the Owner of Time On Target, a sales expert, and a serious technology geek who knows how to help his clients take their automation game to the next level. With a 20+ year career in business development working with brands like Frontier Communications, Nextel, Salesforce, and BNI, his knowledge, skills, and understanding of communication and technology are getting real results for the businesses he works with. Kevin knows how to integrate digital technology with your sales process authentically and professionally. He’ll show you what’s been missing in ensuring an effective outreach and trust-building system: part entrepreneur, part salesperson, part technology master, and part Star Wars fan. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Kevin.
In this episode, Nancy and Kevin discuss the following:
- Transition from teaching to selling.
- Kevin’s story of pursuing what he studied in college and winding up going in a different direction.
- Increasing sales by understanding and optimizing the sales process.
- Kevin’s tips on being in touch with prospects through automation.
- Why Kevin does not chase clients?
- Selling is making it all about prospects, not about salespeople.
Key Takeaways:
- One of the things that we must help business owners understand when I work with them is that sales are just a series of conversations with an outcome.
- As a business owner, I don’t have time to chase clients.
- Sometimes, it’s just easier to let them go.
- You understand the pain that I’m going through as a business owner, and you have a potential solution.
- I know that with all the stuff I have going on with two different companies, a couple of podcasts now, and all the other stuff going on in my life, I can’t have this huge pipeline filled with Hopium.
“When we do it for a company, all those automation emails come from whichever salesperson is supporting that prospect. So, it sounds like it’s coming from the person they know; we’re working on that relationship, it’s no longer; we’ve all gotten those emails where it’s like, “Hey, we want you to schedule a meeting with our sales team.” “I already have a meeting with your sales guy tomorrow; why are you still sending me this stuff?” And it impacts the relationship because you’re like, well, “Do they even know what’s going on with me? And how important am I if they’re not able to manage this type of communication? ” – KEVIN.
“ The conversation needs to be about what I call the Afters. How are you going to leave that prospect after they do business with you and become a client? What is the quality-of-life change that you’re going to give them? How do you keep them from being awake at [2:30] in the morning thinking about work or thinking about family stuff or whatever the issues are that you can solve? I see that a lot of people think, “It’s got to impress them with all my accolades.” And honestly, none of us care.” – KEVIN.
“Sales are just having a conversation with someone. It is literally just asking questions and getting them to talk about themselves and then being able to dive into what they’re sharing and help them solve stuff. The best salespeople I have ever encountered who have been able to get me to buy are pulling out all the issues I’m having. And then saying, “Well, have you thought about this? What if we did this type of thing?” and they’re laying out solutions for me where I can see, “Oh yeah, that would help.” As opposed to what a lot of people, especially in the tech field, do is lay out features. And I don’t care about features. I care about how it’s going to fix my problem. So, that’s the thing that people need to remember. It’s literally about diving into your prospect’s world and leaving them better, even if they don’t buy from you if they’re in a better position to fix stuff, I still won because they’ll remember me later.” – KEVIN.
Connect with Kevin Snow:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Kevin Snow, the co-host of the Growth Mode podcast, the COO of Success Champions, and the owner of Time on Target. As a sales expert with over 20 years of experience as a sales leader and serious technology geek, Kevin knows precisely how to help his clients take their automation game to the next level. He has a proven track record of getting real results for small businesses, showing them how to integrate digital technology with their sales process authentically and professionally. Kevin is also a contributing author of multiple bestselling business books. We are thrilled to have you on the show, Kevin. Let’s get started.
Kevin Snow: Cool. Thanks for having me on Nancy. I’m excited for our chat today. [1:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. All right. So, in doing my homework on you, I noticed you have a degree in agriculture and secondary ed. So how did that get you into sales technology?
Kevin Snow: Thanks for watching! Wow. So, you went way back. Most people don’t even know that part until I tell them. So yeah, I’m supposed to be a high school ag teacher and high school wrestling coach. So, when I graduated back in 1996, I was out doing the job search thing and I was looking at both teaching and non-teaching options and I got offered a teaching job, which was cool. Not all my graduates that I graduated with did, but I got offered a teaching job. It was $19,000 a year, which like, okay, cool. But then I also got offered this sales job. It was a hybrid sales job where I was upselling and selling into existing accounts for a telecom company Nationwide Frontier Communications was who it was with and they were offering me $39,000 base plus commissions on top of that and I’m like Okay Mom, I’m moving to Minnesota because I have school loans to pay and I need to pay for someplace to live And I don’t want to keep mooching off of you. So yeah, I was it was just a better job So yeah, so I ended up completely shifting from teaching to selling telecom, you know, high-end data and voice connection. [3:07]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, I, teasing you because I find that most people, uh, don’t pursue what they studied in college and wind up going in a different direction, don’t you?
Kevin Snow: Yeah. And it’s funny because like my last semester in college, I showed up at, you know, my parents over Christmas break and I’m like “I want to change my major”. And I, they’re like, they’re like, what? It was like, yeah, I want to change my major to marketing. And I ended up, cause I had, you know, finally kind of figured out what I wanted to do and they’re like “Yeah, no, you’re graduating in May. You’ve been in school long enough. So, you know, you know, suck it up”.
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Kevin Snow: So now I tease them because I do a ton of like you with email marketing and email automation, I’m like remember when I wanted to change my degree to marketing and now that’s what I’m doing. So, you know Exactly. So, I tease them about that all the time.
Nancy Calabrese: Yup. We wound up there anyway. Now, I know you help businesses close more sales by understanding their sales process and identifying how to make the process more effective and faster. How do you do that?
Kevin Snow: So, I love the title for your show, Conversational Selling, because what, you know, that’s one of the things when I work with business owners that we must help them understand is that sales are just a series of conversations with an outcome. You know, it’s the same as we’re talking to any of our friends. No, we call each other up and say “Hey, are you going to the game this weekend? All right, cool. Let me, let me give you a call when I get down there and we can meet up”. Every time you have a conversation with someone in your circle, there’s always hey, here’s what’s here’s what we’re doing next, and it’s always designed around. Alright, so what’s the next step in the relationship? What do we do next? We’re going to do it here alright I’ll call you about that. You’re going to talk to this person There’s always those things established and that’s really what we work with our clients as well as help them understand Alright, so how are your prospects making those business decisions, what are the steps they’re going through in that process? And then how do you link up your process to that so that it’s running parallel and that you aren’t coming across as that sleazy sales guy or sleazy sales gal, because that’s usually what happens when the salesperson gets ahead of the other person, they become, they’re now, they, there’s not that perception that they’re trying to force the close. They’re trying to close the person hard. So our focus is making sure they’re running in parallel and then figuring out all right so you have this meeting event you’re doing this site survey if you’re a tech firm what do we need to then send via automation that is going to help the conversation continue and is going to provide really good content that will help them make that next step so the conversation can go to that next level. [6:08]
Nancy Calabrese: How often do you recommend being in touch with prospects through automation?
Kevin Snow: So, if you’re in an active sales process where you have either you as the owner or the founder or your salespeople engaged with the prospect, all the marketing automation stuff should end. It should just stop. And all the conversations, that person that’s now the sales, they’re the quarterback for that process. No, and all the automation that you’re using should focus on how you help that person sell better. So, yep, as the owner or salesperson, if once you get into a face-to-face conversation sales process, all the other marketing stuff should stop. And all the automation now that should be there supporting what’s happening in that process. So, you know, for example, a roughing company I worked with, they’d go out and do that initial meeting where they measured the rough and talked about, ooh, here’s colors and types of shingles and all that type of stuff. When they would leave that meeting, they would then send out an automated email, it was like, hey, it was awesome meeting and seeing your beautiful house. Here’s something that we hear from most of our prospects is that they’re nervous about doing down payments for contractors because they feel they’re going to get scammed here’s a checklist of the top 10 things that you need to ask before giving anyone a down payment for construction services. That content is designed to answer some key questions that are going on in that prospect’s head, but now they have things to talk about and to drive that conversation forward the next time they meet with that prospect. So that’s the type of automation you should be sending during the sales process. It needs to sound like it’s coming from the salesperson. It needs to support what that salesperson is doing. The salesperson needs to understand what those messages are so that when they’re talking and they understand when it go out so that when they’re talking to their prospect, they’re not surprised when the prospect says, hey, I got this email. What email? Because they should. [8:34]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Kevin Snow: When we do it for a company, all those automation emails come from whichever salesperson is supporting that prospect. So, it sounds like it’s coming from the person they know, we’re working on that relationship, it’s no longer, we’ve all gotten those emails where it’s like “Hey, we want you to schedule a meeting with our sales team”. “I already have a meeting with your sales guy tomorrow, why are you still sending me this stuff?” And it impacts the relationship, because you’re like, well “Do they even know what’s going on with me? And how important am I if they’re not able to manage this type of communication?” [9:10]
Nancy Calabrese: Share your unique idea that is different and sets you apart from others in your space.
Kevin Snow: So, I don’t chase clients. I hate that whole concept “Oh, let me, I’ll follow up with you next week. Or, hey, give me a call in a month”. Yeah, I don’t have time to chase as a business owner. I am a huge proponent of OneCallCloses. And I do it regularly for my automation stuff. I don’t do proposals.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh wow.
Kevin Snow: I, you know, and yeah, it’s a waste of my time and it’s usually an out for that person because they don’t want to say no. So, I am very upfront with my prospects when we’re going through that sales process of letting them know it’s “Hey, my goal for this meeting is really for us to get to know each other and figure out if there’s a reason for us to be able to work together. If there’s not, tell me because I don’t want to waste your time. And if I don’t think I can help you, I’m going to let you know too. So, you know if it’s not going to be a thing, let me know”. So, at the end, you know, if, if we’re not at the point where they’re ready to say yes, and they know it’s like, well, I need to think about it. I’ll immediately go with something like “You know, so let’s do this. Let’s, let’s consider it a nod for now. And if in the future you’re ready to decide, you want to do something with me, let me know and reach out, but I’m not going to follow up with you every two weeks, hoping you’re going to say something”. So it’s almost a form of the takeaway close. Still, I know for me with all the stuff I have going on with two different companies, uh, a couple of podcasts now, uh, and you know, all the other stuff going on in my life that I can’t have this huge pipeline of, of filled with Hopium, you know, Ooh, I hope they’re going to close this. [11:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Right? I love that word.
Kevin Snow: Well, and that’s what salespeople live on a lot of times. Having been a sales manager, having your team come in and say, all right, let’s go through your pipeline and then they have this one that’s been on there for eight months and was like, well, yeah, I think they’re going to close this month. Really? What have they done that’s given you that signal? You have not had a conversation with them for, uh, for like four months. But do you still think they’re going to close? They don’t answer your calls. Why is this even on here? So, you know, I want people in my pipeline who are actively engaged, who I’m in a conversation with, you know? And I have some like right now that I did do some stuff with, but we’ve already set up, hey, here’s when we’re going to talk. We’re going to meet on this day currently. And so, it’s not me calling back at the beginning of October saying, all right, so you ready to do stuff yet? We have a meeting set up. So, I know we’re going to have a closing opportunity. So that’s one of the things that I do differently than I see with a lot of salespeople. We had one on that was trying to sell me and my business partner the other day. And he left the meeting with, all right, so cool. I’ll, you know, I’ll give you a call in a couple of months. And he got off the call. Yeah. A couple of months. Cause we weren’t ready to do anything right now. He’s like, well, I’ll just follow up with you then. Donnie and I looked at each other after the call. We’re like, what? Did he just literally do that? so we’re like, you know He’s never going to get back in front of us again because he’s just going to do that follow-up thing as opposed to setting the meeting So that’s a key thing that we work with all our prospects and clients on. [12:58]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, you know, it’s interesting you say that because whenever we hear something like that follow-up in a couple of months, we usually address it. Gee, you know, I’m not sure this is your case, but very often when people say things like that, it’s they’re trying to politely bow out because they don’t want to say no, no thank you. And we find that works quite a bit.
Kevin Snow: Yeah. It’s, and it’s, you know, it’s one thing if it’s a prospect saying, hey, well, I’ll give you a call in a couple of months, but it’s a different thing when it’s a salesperson that’s leaving the door open that way. Um, and sometimes depending on the salesperson and how much we like their product and service, and you know, if we hit it off well with them or not, we’ll say things as well. And sometimes, and, and Donnie’s launched into full coaching, uh, sessions with salespeople before and so have I. Uh, but other times like, all right, sweet. [13:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah.
Kevin Snow: you just gave us the easy out. We don’t have to do anything with this one now. So sometimes it’s just easier to let them go.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Huh. Yep. Is there a story the audience would find interesting? I’m sure you’re loaded with stories.
Kevin Snow: Um, you know, a lot of the stories are now on, you know, bad pitches, you know, especially with social media and email and, being a big email proponent, I read all the stuff that comes into my inbox. Usually, uh, it’s, it’s humorous, and other times it’s painful and, and occasionally I’ll find really good, uh, prospecting emails, but some of them are horrible. You know we had one that I got and I still saved all the emails for this just because I wanted to have them because it was just that bad It was for a backyard ice rink ice hockey rink, So I live in Minnesota. I’m in Minnesota. So that is a thing for where I live People have ice hockey rings in their backyard. So, you know, at least I’m kind of fit the geography to sell it to but his, the pitch started good. It’s like, Hey, you know, this is a great way to, uh, spend your off time and be healthy, uh, and then it pivoted to instead of, you know, why I should have one and why it would be a great thing for me to have and how it would make my life better to, you know, how he left Harvard business school to launch this business. And it was all his, you know, accolades and why, you know, it now became all about him and it was no longer about me and why I should have an ice hockey rink Um, I don’t even have kids. So, you know, it would just literally be me skating around in a circle So that would be kind of boring Um, but it was all about hey, you know, I’m so cool You know I dropped out of Harvard to start this company and I did this and I did that and here you know And you should buy it from me because I’m this person and that’s not what you need to do. [15:58]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Kevin Snow: The conversation needs to be about what I call the Afters. How you’re going to leave that prospect after they do business with you after they become a client? What is the quality-of-life change that you’re going to give them? How do you keep them from being awake at [2:30] in the morning thinking about work or thinking about family stuff or whatever the issues are that you can solve, I see that a lot where people think “It’s got to impress them with all my accolades”. And honestly, none of us care. [16:33]
Nancy Calabrese: No, nobody cares. Nobody cares. A fatal mistake in selling is making it all about you, not about them.
Kevin Snow: Yeah. Exactly. And in email, because everyone is so used to spam, you must up right at the front, get their attention, and say, oh, you’re talking about stuff that’s going on in my world. You understand the pain that I’m going through as a business owner, and you have a potential solution. I’m going to keep reading. And then normally, the other thing I see that always makes me laugh Is the first email I get from someone will be like click here to schedule a call with our sales team Hmm. No How about you know, give me some more content give me more stuff It’s like oh, I you know, these guys are kind of smart. They kind of know what’s going on You know feed me links to click to a blog article or a free piece of content or something So now you can see all right. So, this person’s engaged They’re clicking on stuff. Here’s kind of where they’re going in their sales process or their decision process, and now you can say, all right, so now we’re going to send them a link where they can connect and set a meeting. Uh, but normally they, they go for the kill right away. And I used to, I used to always like, I’d reply to some of them, especially if they’re companies that were kind of in my target area, I’d reply and say, hey, here are thanks for the email. You didn’t do some research because I do email. Here are some things you could do that would probably improve your conversion rate on this email chain I’m going to give them a bunch of stuff for free and a couple, you know occasionally get sounds like oh wow, that’s awesome. Yeah, can we talk? But most people are just literally well, yeah, we don’t care. This is a numbers thing and It’s like alright so you would rather get you know easy people, you’d rather send out thousands and thousands of emails a day and get the people that are like, oh yes, I need this right now, I’ve been looking, as opposed to getting people who are like, oh wow, I need to think about this. And, could be converted and are probably going to be a higher paying client and they’re going to have a longer longevity with you, as opposed to the people like, oh, I’m going to buy this right now and it doesn’t work and then I’m going to leave. [19:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. I can’t believe we’re kind of up with time, but what is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Kevin Snow: Uh, my, my biggest takeaway is, you know, sales are just having a conversation with someone, you know, it is literally just asking questions and getting them to talk about themselves and then being able to dive into what they’re sharing and help them solve stuff. You know, it, the, the best salespeople that have ever I’ve encountered that have been able to get me to buy are ones who are pulling out all the, the issues I’m having. And then saying, well, have you thought about this? You know, what if we did this type of thing, and they’re laying out solutions for me where I can see, oh yeah, that would help. As opposed to what a lot, especially in the tech field, what a lot of people do is lay out features. And I don’t care about features. I care about how it’s going to fix my problem. So, that’s the thing that people need to remember. It’s literally about diving into your prospect’s world and leaving them better, even if they don’t buy from you, if they’re in a better position to fix stuff, I still won, because they’re going to remember me later. [20:19]
Nancy Calabrese: That’s right. Top of mind. And how can my people find you, Kevin?
Kevin Snow: The easiest way to find me is on LinkedIn and this connects with me on LinkedIn. Kevin E Snow is my LinkedIn profile name. I believe, let’s see, I think I have a picture of me on stage right now at the bad-ass business summit is my background, but that’s the quickest way to connect with me and just, just let me know in the connection requests that you heard me on Conversational Selling, then I’ll, then I’ll be for sure to accept the request.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Listen, everyone, first, Kevin, thank you for spending time with us. We think a lot alike as it relates to selling. And so, it’s always fun to speak with another kindred spirit, if you would. I recommend that everybody reach out to Kevin. He’s got tremendous expertise in email technology, and digital technology. And you want to up your game? Kevin is the go-to man. So until we speak again, make it a great sales day. [21:29]
by Nancy Calabrese | Oct 31, 2023 | Podcast
About Bruce Scheer: Bruce Scheer is President of FutureSight and has over 20 years of business management and consulting experience. He brings unique and insightful perspectives to client engagements, reflecting his passion for technology, strategic marketing, and sales enablement. With confidence, optimism, and a sense of urgency, Bruce enjoys helping global IT services, software, hardware, and professional services organizations achieve marketing success and great business results. Before founding FutureSight, Bruce held executive positions in consulting firms and industries across North America and Asia. He also served as Vice President and West Coast Office Director for MSI Consulting, where he worked with industry-leading clients to identify strategic market opportunities and develop go-to-market campaigns for new products and services. A noted author and speaker, Bruce is available to share his expertise on a wide range of business topics, including the business value of IT and selling and marketing based on ROI. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Bruce.
In this episode, Nancy and Bruce discuss the following:
- The concept of a story that sizzles referred to Bruce’s recent book, “Inspire Your Buyers: Go to Market with a Story That Sizzles.”
- Consumer Dilemma: Overwhelming Choices.
- The core elements of a narrative that sizzles.
- Qualifying Decision-Makers correctly.
- Why evoking emotions in potential buyers is the primary objective for sales professionals.
Key Takeaways:
- Sizzles is an amazing framework for how to design your sales story.
- Don’t be overwhelmed and bewildered by all the selection choices that are out there.
- Everything starts really with targeting the ideal buyer.
- People buy on emotion, and then they justify with logic.
- Don’t sell products, sell outcomes.
“ Well, it’s an evergreen problem. But it’s probably even more acute today. There are so many answers that buyers need to need to choose from. And I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of this whole notion that too many options are shutting buyers down. The other thing is with all these options, you get into this whole selection buyers issue that also drives no decision. There’s just so many answers, you know, think about going out and buying a new car or something, you know, there’s so many answers to choose from, it might be overwhelming. So, how can you help your buyer buy? That’s the bottom line. And to do so, I do believe you need to have a story that sizzles, helps you stand apart from the competitive pack, and helps your buyer get over that hump of fear, uncertainty, and doubt to want to buy from you and buy from you. And that strategic narrative, that story carries the day with that objective.” – BRUCE.
“What other signals would they send that they’re an ideal client profile? I’m sure you’ve heard that ICP is the ideal client profile. So, we get very narrowly focused there. Then, from there, who within that account should I be talking to? Who’s the buyer who will carry the day and has the power to sway others within that organization? Yes, we should invest in this. So, who’s that consultant and professor down in California who coined this Steve Martin, but he calls it the bully with the Joe bully with the juice? Who’s that bully with the juice? Who should we target within that account? Now, typically, for a lot of the buying decisions that my clients face. There might be five or six people who might be part of that buying committee. But again, who’s the bully with the juice? And what’s their day job? What’s their role? What are their responsibilities? What are the challenges they have? And then what are the benefits we can bring them? So, it all starts there. That’s the first element, Nancy, target the right buyer.” – BRUCE.
“How do we characterize that problem, both verbally and visually? And that’s one thing, Nancy, that I think most organizations that I see as they go to market are missing the characterization of the problem they solve. They’re typically very solution-centric. “Hey, Nancy, I’ve got this new solution. Let me tell you all about it. Here’s what it looks like. Here’s what it feels like. Here are the benefits, features, and functions of that whole thing”. That’s not where you want to start; you want to start that narrative around the problem. And you want to plant that problem and point a spotlight on it, you know, just again, thinking of an analogy, think of that spotlight when you point it on something, that’s what people see. And then often they can’t unsee it when you do that well. And that’s the fun part; if you can crack that code, you’re typically going to sell way more and help so many buyers out by helping them have that clarity and conviction around the problem that you can help them solve.” – BRUCE.
Connect with Bruce Scheer:
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Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Bruce Shear, President of Inspire Your Buyers. His company provides a proven tested model to develop a compelling go-to-market narrative that accelerates revenue growth while rapidly bringing product, marketing, and sales teams into alignment. Bruce’s go-to-market narrative model gives companies the edge they’re looking for in achieving business growth goals. Bruce is also the President of FutureSight and the National Speakers Association Northwest. He brings unique and insightful perspectives to client engagements that reflect his passion for technology and strategic marketing and sales enablement. Welcome to the show, Bruce!
Bruce Scheer: Hey, thanks a lot, Nancy. Excited to be here. [1:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, really, you do a lot of things. So, let’s get right into it. So, I understand you recently published your book, Inspire Your Buyers, Go to Market with a Story That Sizzles. What is a story that sizzles?
Bruce Scheer: Good question. A story that sizzles Nancy, if you if you envision, I don’t know if you ever go to a Mexican restaurant. And, you know, so when somebody orders fajitas, you can hear the sizzling sound and everyone turns around and goes “Hey, what’s going on? You know, what’s that sound?”. And a lot of people know but they want to see if anybody is going to burn themselves. There’s a lot of excitement there. And that from an analogy perspective. I want to help the clients that I serve market stories at Sizzle. So, I want them to have a great narrative, a strategic narrative where the buyers that they’re seeking to serve to stand up and go: “Whoa, this sizzle”. This sounds different than anything else. I normally see. I’m interested. You’ve piqued my interest. I want to engage further. I want to understand if is this something worth investing in looking at, etc. So that’s what I mean by a go-to-market story that sizzles. And then funny enough, after we created that catchphrase, the subtitle for our best-selling book, we realized Sizzles is an amazing framework for how to design your sales story. And I think your audience will probably really appreciate that thinking through the dimensions of what makes sure your go-to-market story, your sales story sizzles. [3:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Well, why is it so important that the story sizzled, especially now? Like, what’s the problem being solved?
Bruce Scheer: Oh, geez. Well, it’s an evergreen problem. But it’s probably even more acute today. There are so many answers that buyers need to need to choose from. And I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of this whole notion that too many options are shutting buyers down. You know, a lot of the clients that I serve, you know, they struggle with a no-decision rate, you know, they spend all this time and energy with their client to end a no deal, no decision. That doesn’t mean they went with a competitor or anything else. They you know, they just landed on no decision with that prospect. The other thing is with all these options, you get into this whole selection bias issue where, man, you know, that drives no decision as well. There’s just so many answers, you know, think about going out and buying a new car or something, you know, there’s so many answers to choose from, it might be overwhelming. So how can you help your buyer buy? That’s the bottom line. And to do so, I do believe you need to have a story that sizzles, helps you stand apart from the competitive pack, and helps your buyer get over that hump of fear, uncertainty, and doubt to want to buy from you and buy from you. And that strategic narrative, that story carries the day with that objective. [4:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. You know, the first thing that popped into my head when you said, when you have too much to choose from is Macy’s 34th Street, New York City. You walk into that store and there are tons, tons of options. And I remember being there going like, I have no idea. And I would leave without buying.
Bruce Scheer: Oh. Gosh. If you can remember, uh, you know, the video stores blockbuster back in the day, Nancy, you know, I used to avoid going into those because I would end up spending an hour or two looking at different titles. I do the same thing much to my wife’s frustration. I’ll be going into Netflix and thinking about, you know “Hey, should I watch this one, this one, this one, this one, this one”. And I found a long time ago “Hey, you know, it’s better just to have three options and pick one and go” and get something done. Don’t be overwhelmed and bewildered by all the selection choices that are out there. And in this era, I’ll tell you, the clients that I serve, and typically, Nancy, it’s in the hardware software, you know, the software is a service type of space, technology space, there are so many options. So how do you stand apart and help your buyer buy? And the story that sizzles creates that bridge, that roadmap to make sure that happens. [6:17]
Nancy Calabrese: So, what are the core elements of a narrative that sizzles?
Bruce Scheer: Well, the core narrative or core elements, I say there’s five Nancy, and I’ll break down each one and let me know along the way, as you have questions, concerns about what I’m saying, I know you’re a true pro and, and you’ll have something to offer. So, it starts really with targeting the ideal buyer. And so, you’re thinking about, you know, which types of organizations have that burning need for my solution. I.E., if they don’t have it, they might be going out of business or they’re so much incredible value that they will readily see as I paint that story, that vision that they’re going to want to buy it. So that’s an organizational standpoint. And then I normally help my clients think that through. What are their business characteristics? Their operational characteristics. [7:18]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Bruce Scheer: What other types of signals they would be sending that they’re an ideal client profile? I’m sure you’ve heard ICP, is the ideal client profile. So, we get very narrowly focused there. Then from there, who within that account should I be talking to? Who’s the buyer who is going to carry the day and has the power to sway others within that organization? Yes, we should invest in this. So, who’s that consultant and professor down in California, who coined this Steve Martin, but he calls it the bully with the Joe bully with the juice? Who’s that bully with the juice? Who should we target within that account? Now, typically for a lot of the buying decisions that my clients face. There might be five, or six people who might be part of that buying committee. But again, who’s the bully with the juice? And what’s their day job? What’s their role? What are their responsibilities? What are the challenges they have? And then what are the benefits we can bring them? So, it all starts there. That’s the first element, Nancy, just target the right buyer. [8:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Bruce Scheer: The second element, or any questions, or concerns before I move on to the second element in terms of buyer targeting.
Nancy Calabrese: No, I think that’s a big challenge though for many organizations understanding who the decision maker is because within each company it could vary, right? And as you said, I think it’s important to qualify right up front how many decision-makers are involved in this process to get them engaged very early on in the conversation. So, you’re not being strung along, and you shorten the sales cycle. What do you think?
Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I agree that that’s critical as you start that dialogue. Once you enter the account, you need to figure out you know, who at the end of the day is going to be deciding on this who’s signing the contract is that question I typically like to ask to figure out, you know, who might be that ultimate decision maker. So, but there are patterns, you do your work on identifying the right types of accounts, typically there are patterns, this persona this role, this person typically is that decision maker. And then from there, we start to build our strategic narrative, our story that sizzles. And so, I’ll take you through the next part of that path then. So, the second element of having a story that sizzles is what I call spotlighting the problem. So, what I mean by that is we spend a lot of time thinking through how we characterize the problem state of that buyer. They might see it, oftentimes they don’t even see it in its totality, but how can we help characterize that, both verbally and most importantly, Nancy, visually? How can we paint a picture of that problem domain that’s setting them back, that’s holding them back, that’s incredibly costly and frustrating from an operational perspective, a personal perspective, an employee morale perspective, whatever perspectives we want to pour gas on? How do we characterize that problem, both verbally and visually? And that’s one thing, Nancy, that I think most organizations that I see as they go to market, they’re missing the characterization of the problem they solve. They’re typically very solution-centric. “Hey, Nancy, I’ve got this new solution. Let me tell you all about it. Here’s what it looks like. Here’s what it feels like. Here are the benefits features, and functions of that whole thing”. That’s not where you want to start, you want to start that narrative around the problem. And you want to plant that problem and, and point a spotlight on it, you know, just again, thinking of an analogy, think of that spotlight, you know, when you point it on something, that’s what people see. And then often they can’t unsee it when you do that well. [11:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Bruce Scheer: And everything else is in the black. So, you’re bringing focus and clarity to that problem by spotlighting it. And that’s the fun part, if you can crack that code, you’re typically going to sell way more, and help so many buyers out by helping them have that clarity and conviction around the problem that you can help them solve.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I think by bringing up problems, the goal is to get them emotional, right? Get them thinking about their frustrations and so on.
Bruce Scheer: Oh. Yeah. And, you know, you’ve probably seen the wisdom around, people buy on emotion, and then they kind of justify with logic. And because of that, Nancy, my firm inspires your buyers calmly, we have a business case development offering as well and tools to support that to give that buyer the logic as well. So, when we’re defining the problem space, we do, I do want to do that from a big, ugly, emotional perspective. But then also I want to move into, Nancy, the problem dimension of what’s this costing you and what’s the cost of inaction? What economically and financially, you know, what’s on the table here? What, what, you know, how much money could we save you? How much money could you gain by really addressing this head-on? And so that’s kind of the logic discussion as well. So, it’s kind of, it’s a bit of a one-two punch where it’s emotional and logic is part of that problem dimension. But you so smartly mentioned, Nancy, you want to get that emotional hook. If you don’t have it, you’re probably not going to be selling much. [13:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Agree 100%. Yep.
Bruce Scheer: Cool. Well, Nancy, if you, go ahead.
Nancy Calabrese: No, then you want to move on to, are you ready to go to three or?
Bruce Scheer: Sure. Yeah. I’ll go to the third key element then. So just to recap, we targeted the right buyer in terms of the organization characteristics and the personas that we want to talk to. We planted that problem, and we were able to shine a spotlight on it so everybody can see it now. And again, very often it’s a blind spot. From there, we move on to element number C and that’s funny enough, Nancy, that’s not talking about the solution just yet. And that’s where typically where people go problem solution. No, from there, the third element, which is a bit of a surprise to people, is the outcome dimension. And Nancy, have you heard of this little, teeny company called Cisco? By any chance? I had the honor of meeting with John Chambers a couple of years ago over at CES, the Las Vegas show and he loves to go there every year and look at all the new technology where he can connect the dots as one of his big themes on what’s going to be hot moving forward. So, he gave a talk there and introduced his new book Connecting the dots. But one of his sales leaders was there with me and asked him at the end of the show, we both walked up to John and just got man, we want, we want the wisdom from this, this legend and his seller asked him “Hey, what’s the number one tip you give people for, for improving sales?” And he says, “Don’t sell products, sell outcomes”. And so that’s the third element in this sell the outcome. So, here’s where it gets exciting and aspirational. You talk to your buyer about “Hey after we nail that problem from you, What’s next? What do you gain after you get rid of that pain?” And then we start to paint a picture again, verbally, and visually of what’s that, you know, you know, after that problem goes away and you start to incur these benefits that we have to offer, what’s that outcome state? What does life on the beach look like for you? And so that’s fun where you talk to your buyer about you, your kind of co-creating, and you’re envisioning with them of that desired state, that outcome state. [15:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, I love that.
Bruce Scheer: It’s awesome. When it, when done well, it works. So that’s kind of, you know, element number C, to help that buyer understand the outcome. And then moving on from there, then you can start with talking about, well, how do we get there? How do we resolve that problem? And then how do we achieve this outcome? That’s so compelling. Then you can talk. Now it’s time to talk a little bit about the solution, not too much, especially if this is an introductory conversation where you finally got that meeting with the decision maker, you want to go light, you don’t want to go deep into features, functions, and stuff. Because that executive decision-maker might go “Oh, you must have thought I cared about all that stuff”. I don’t. You should be talking to somebody down in the boiler room, you know, and I got to go, you know, so you don’t want to go too deep, but you want to talk about I call it the big solution, not the little bits and pieces, but the big solution. How are we going to get there for you? Here’s what that might look like from a solution perspective. And Nancy, I’m glad to back this whole model up with an example after I go through these parts, but any questions on the solution domain or anything to contribute there? [16:56]
Nancy Calabrese: No, I like, I mean, the way we operate here is once you qualify the prospect, because that’s basically what you’ve been talking about so far, and you move into the first-time appointment, we typically kind of review what we thought we heard, make sure we didn’t miss anything, and just continue asking questions and get them talking about their pain. We don’t go into features and benefits. You know, we just don’t do it that way. We do consultative selling.
Bruce Scheer: Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, these introductions are on the front end of the sales cycle, the buying journey, if you would, you don’t want to go too deep, you want to keep it at that executive level. However, once you know, once you get deeper into the sales cycle, you know, they’re convinced “Hey, I do have a problem to solve for that is the outcome I want”. From a high level, that does seem like the right type of solution path. Then we move into the final step of my model which is the next steps. And that’s where we lead the witness, we prescribe the next steps. And this is another area that I see most sellers and organizations falling on with their strategic narrative. What are those prescribed next steps? What does that buying journey look like? And many junior sellers would like, oh, hey, this is a good discussion. Uh, what should we do next? And then, and the person goes, well, gosh, we, you know, I’m out of time right now. I’ve got my next appointment. Tell you what, send me information and send me a proposal and I’ll have a meeting on it, and we’ll get back to you. And that is just horrifying, Nancy that, that yeah, yeah. Wrong answer. And that’s a junior mistake. You know, what you want to do is reserve some time to discuss the next steps. [18:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Wrong.
Bruce Scheer: You know, and that might be a five, 10-minute discussion, you know, based on the time that you have with that decision maker, you know, where you confirm with them “Hey, we have an opportunity together to solve that problem, deliver that outcome, and then begin on thinking about the solution at hand. Here’s what I would like to recommend as the next steps. I’d like to talk to a couple of other people on your buying committee and see what they’re thinking about and see if this story resonates with them and what else they would add to this story. And then from there, if that makes sense, I’d like to do a mini-assessment for you guys. If this is a big bet decision”, Nancy. And then from there, I’d like to get together with your buying committee again, this time as a group where we can talk about our findings from that assessment and make some recommendations for you guys on the smartest way to approach this. And then from there, if that makes sense, we will, you know, get that paper process all nailed and we’ll start working together. And if all this goes right, I’m imagining this process will just be a few weeks. And then you might ask that buyer or that decision maker “Hey, what else am I missing? What else do you think we should add to these next steps that we’ll take together?” You know that open-ended question to get their buy-in and stamp on this whole thing. So that’s how you end your narrative, that story that sizzles, really anchoring with that buyer on the next steps of that buying journey. [20:22]
Nancy Calabrese: So, your five steps, are you referring to five different conversations or can some of this be combined?
Bruce Scheer: No, this is all part of your strategic story. Uh, that story that sizzles, you know, so when you show up for those introductory types of conversations with somebody a bit higher up, a decision maker, you follow all five elements are, you know, I shouldn’t call them steps, Nancy, but their core element of that story that sizzles.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Wow. Well, I can’t believe we’re out of time. This is fascinating and I could go on and on with you. So, I do hope that you will come back so we can continue this. How can my people find you?
Bruce Scheer: Well, probably the easiest way is to off our website, www.inspireyourbuyers.com. And secondly, I’d love to connect with people on LinkedIn and it’s just B S C H E E R. My first letter of my first name and then my last name, S C H E E R. And that’s on LinkedIn. So, they’ll be able to find me quite easily there.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, love it. You have a great story and a story that sizzles, Bruce. So, I appreciate it.
Bruce Scheer: Okay, well, thank you, Nancy. Hey, one other thing to remind Nancy, one thing I’d love to say to your audience, if you’re intrigued by this model, and think it’ll help you up your selling conversation, please grab a copy of the book. It’s you know, it’s a best seller number one best seller on Amazon across five categories. The take-up has just been huge, Nancy, I had 1600 downloads in two days blew me away. Um, but it’s, it’s quite popular. It’s very reasonably priced. If you can’t afford it, reach out to me directly. I’ll get you a complimentary copy. And, it just, I hope you enjoy the wisdom within it comes after two decades of helping enterprise sellers get this right. And it’s just simplified and boiled down. I jokingly tell people it’s, it’s light on calories, but very rich on nutrients. So, I hope it’s very helpful. [22:34]
Nancy Calabrese: You are a storyteller, Bruce. I love it. Everyone out there, take advantage of what you learned from Bruce today. Check out his website, connect with him on LinkedIn, and improve your sales. Make it all sizzle. Have a great day, everyone. And again, Bruce, thanks for being on the show.
Bruce Scheer: Absolutely. Thank you, Nancy. [22:59]
by Nancy Calabrese | Oct 24, 2023 | Podcast
About Valeria Grunbaum: Valeria helps entrepreneurs excel in sales with a strategy adaptable to every industry. Her program condenses more than 30 years of international sales expertise into a comprehensive training course. From working in multinational corporations and founding her own marketing and sales consulting firm, where she served Fortune 500 companies such as Procter and Gamble, General Motors, Avon, DHL, Nestlé (among many others), to helping many small and medium-sized businesses such as Chambers of Commerce, Franchises, Attorneys, Real Estate professionals, and many more in different industries, diverse markets all over the world, you won’t find more valuable insight to support your sales education journey. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Valeria.
In this episode, Nancy and Valeria discuss the following:
- The belief that no one is born a salesperson, but every business owner should be one.
- How everyone embodies a salesperson in some way.
- Tailoring communication with customers or prospects based on their personality type throughout the sales process.
- Detailed descriptions of various communication styles.
- Unique traits of each DISC personality style.
Key Takeaways:
- The truth is that without sales, there’s no business.
- For those people with a negative emotion towards the word sales, the truth is that sales are nothing more than a communication process.
- We are all different, but we are predictable and different.
- Sales is the heart of the business.
- Make your sales the primary business focus if you want to grow.
“About 28 years ago, I learned to work with DISC, which is a behavioral assessment, where based on your personality style, you have different ways of how you communicate and how you need to receive the communication. And what happened is that I started using DISC within my sales process. I understood very early in my years that I shouldn’t communicate how I want to communicate with people. Instead, I should communicate with people how they need to receive the communication. So, this is the transformation that happened in my business after that. Before I realized I could use this methodology with my sales process, I was closing out of 10 clients or 10 customers; let’s call it customers; I was closing only two clients. But then when I started implementing these techniques, this methodology within my sales process, I was working with 10 clients or customers and closing eight clients.” – VALERIA.
“So, there are four main personality styles; depending on how you behave or think, you will most likely have the four, but you will have one in the driver’s seat. Imagine that you are a car; the car has four seats. So, you have all four, but you have one in the driver’s seat, one on the co-pilot, and then two on the passenger back in the passenger seat. So, based on the one driving the car, you’re going to filter the information that you hear, feel, or see. And then, based on that, is how you will respond or react. So, the driver’s seat is the one that decides how you see the world. ” – VALERIA.
“We have the “D,” the “I,” the “S,” and the “C.” The “D” is that person who is direct, focused on the results that one thinks should be done fast, doesn’t get hooked on the details, and makes things happen. They know that they don’t know how they will make it happen, but they know that they can make it happen, and they do. They are very fast-paced. And then the “I” is people that are focused on people. I mean, the “D” s are focused on the task. The “I’s” are focused on the people. They are great cheerleaders. They are very optimistic. They talk with their arms open. Sometimes, they talk even louder. They want to be noticed. When someone who is a high “I” enters the room, everybody will know that person came. The high “S” are very loyal people; they’re introverted. They are people-oriented but different from the “I” ‘s because the “I” s is more out, and the “S” is more in. What I mean by these is that they love people and want to serve. They want to nurture people. They want to help people. And they are very loyal. They are great employees. 69% of the population are high “S”. The high “C’s” they are detail-oriented. These people want to know the step-by-step; they want to get all the information before they decide, so they take time to make decisions. They are task-oriented like the high “D’s,” but the difference is that the high “D’s” don’t need a step-by-step process; they just make it happen. But “C’s” won’t skip a step, and they need proof before they decide.” – VALERIA.
Connect with Valeria Grunbaum:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Valeria Grunbaum, CEO and lead facilitator at the International Business Academy. She provides corporate training, coaching, and consulting services tailored to her clients’ leadership, communication, and sales needs. Valeria is a 30-year sales marketing and leadership veteran recognized for her exceptional ability to speak with clarity, conviction, and insight on a full spectrum of topics about achieving success in the global marketplace. She’s been an internationally renowned trainer, coach, and public speaker for over 20 years. She’s trained and coached specializing in leadership and international sales and marketing strategies to more than 4,000 professionals from more than 40 nationalities. Welcome to the show, Valeria. Let’s get started.
Valeria Grunbaum: Thank you, Nancy. It’s a pleasure to be here with you. [1:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Yes, well, you know, one thing that jumped out to me when I was doing research for this program is what you post on your website. No one is born a salesperson, but every business owner should be one. So, listen, why would you say that?
Valeria Grunbaum: Yes. Well, because we have the false perception or a lot of people have the false perception that a business is about the product, is about the service they do, is about operations, is about admin. But the truth is that without sales, there’s no business.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. That is so true. And we spoke before the podcast, everybody’s a salesperson. They may not want to admit it, but we’re all in the business of getting what we want. Isn’t that true?
Valeria Grunbaum: Since we are kids. I mean, if we think about a kid in the supermarket with his mom saying, hey, I want this candy or I want this cereal, there is a process of negotiation happening there, right? Between the mom and the kid. So, we are in cells since the moment that we are born and we learn that if we cry, we get something in return. So now cells are just a grow-up process of stating what we want and what we offer and getting something in exchange. Actually, I want to say that for those that have, I mean, those people that have kind of a negative emotion towards the word sales, the truth is that sales are nothing more than a communication process. That’s it. [3:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Totally agree with you and that’s a great segue. Another point that you believe in is, how do you communicate with customers or prospects through the sales process based on their personality style. Talk to us about that.
Valeria Grunbaum: Okay, so about 28 years ago, I learned to work with, I don’t know if you know about DISC, which is a behavioral assessment, where based on your personality style, you have different ways on how you communicate and how you need to receive the communication. And what happened is that I started using DISC within my sales process. I understood very early in my years that I shouldn’t communicate with people the way that I want to communicate. Instead, I should be communicating with people the way that they need to receive the communication. So, this is the transformation that happened in my business after that. Before I realized that I could use this, methodology with my sales process, I was closing out of 10 clients or 10 customers, let’s call it customers, I was closing only two clients. But then when I started implementing these techniques, and methodology within my sales process, I was working with 10 clients or customers, and I was closing eight clients. [5:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Yeah, you know what? Describe this to the audience though, the different communication styles.
Valeria Grunbaum: Okay, so we understand, I want to talk about the person that created this back in the 1920s, that he realized that there were, after the studies, the research that they did, they understood that there were four main personality styles. So, we are all different, but we are predictable and different. So, at that moment, they were doing all these studies about personality styles, but it was not used in business until the 40s and 50s. And then they started using it for human resources to recruit personnel for the companies. But nowadays we use it for communication, for sales, for many other things, for leadership and so on. So, what it is that there are four main personality styles, and depending on how you behave or how you think, you will most likely have four of them, but you will have one that is in the driver’s seat. Let’s put it that way. Imagine that you are a car, the car has four seats. So, you have all four, but you have one in the driver’s seat, one on the co-pilot, and then two on the passenger back in the passenger seat. So based on the one that is driving the car, you’re going to filter the information that you hear, or you feel, or you see. And then based on that is how you are going to respond or react. So, the driver’s seat is the one that decides how you see the world. [7:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Valeria Grunbaum: The one that is on the co-pilot has a lot of influence on how you see the world. So, when we start thinking, yes, we are a combination of those four, and you and I, we may have the same driver on the driver’s seat, but we may have the other three in different orders, different scales. And based on that, the report, the assessment will give you a report that tells you how you…communicate how you need to receive the communication, even how you sell, because we have one of the assessments specifically for sales. And so how you sell and how you need to communicate with each type of customer, type of customer based on their personality style, when you combine your personality style with your customer personality style. It’s very fascinating, Nancy. To me, almost in every conversation that I have, in my first two or three minutes, I have a goal to understand the personality style of the person. So, asking the right questions, and understanding how the other person thinks and how the other person behaves, help you to predict how the person is going to react when you present the information. [8:40]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. All right. But what are the four communication styles? Let the audience hear from you.
Valeria Grunbaum: Okay, so we have the D, the I, the S, and the C. So I’m not gonna say the names that we put into it because there are three million, if you go to Google, you will find three million different names for each of them. So, I don’t want even to people think about the names. I’m gonna talk about each of these, okay? So the “D” is that person who is direct, who is focused on the results that one thinks to be done fast, who doesn’t get hooked on the details, and who makes things happen. They know that they don’t know how they’re going to make it happen, but they know that they can make it happen and they do. They are very fast-paced. And then the “I” is people that are focused on people. I mean the “D”s are focused on the task. The “I” s are focused on the people and are more about them showing up. They are great cheerleaders. They are very optimistic. They talk with their arms open. Sometimes they talk even louder. They want to be noticed. When you have someone that is a high eye entering the room, everybody will know that person came. And they’re very, very social and they are very influential. And then you have the “S”, the high “S”, which is people that are very loyal, they’re introverted. They are people-oriented, but different from the “I”’s because the I’s is more out, and the “S” is more in. What I mean by these is they love people, and they want to serve. They want to nurture people. They want to help people. And they are very loyal. They are great employees. And they are 69% of the population are high “S”. Now, they are very slow-paced because their biggest fear is certainty. So, if, I should say uncertainty, right? I mean, the change of what they know. [11:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh really? Okay.
Valeria Grunbaum: So, they are very stable, they are very steady. Now the high “C”s, are detail-oriented. These people, want to know the step-by-step, they want to get all the information before they decide, so they take time to make decisions. They are task-oriented like they hide these, but the difference is that they hide these, they don’t need a step-by-step process, they just make it happen. The hide “C”s, need the step-by-step. They won’t skip a step, and they need proof before they decide. So, if we take this in cells, like if I’m working with a high-d client, my meeting is going to last 10, 15 minutes is going to be straightforward. Hey, let’s talk about business. If I’m talking with a high “I”, it’s going to be more kind of like “How is your family doing? How are you doing?”. So, I know that a meeting with a high “I” is going to last probably an hour because the high “I”s, we have to touch on a personal level. The high “D”s don’t touch the personal level. It’s kind of like, okay, yeah. But for the high “I”s, you need to touch on the personal level, and you need to let them talk. Right. If I keep interrupting a high “I” and I don’t let them share their story with me, I will break the rapport with them and I will lose them. So, the high “I”s, they are more, they are more about telling the story. And if they to decide, they will, they will call their friends. They will call the family. Sometimes I have high “I”s that they call me and say, hey, you know, because my friend worked with you, I want to work with you. So, they are very, they guide their decisions based on also what other people say. [13:16]
Nancy Calabrese: I’ve read somewhere that most salespeople are an “I”. Is that your experience?
Valeria Grunbaum: No, not really. I mean, high “I”s, are great salespeople because they tell great stories, they are very influential. High “D”s are great people also on sales because they are very straightforward. I mean, high “D”s can be on the phone prospecting with cold calls for hours and they don’t care about rejection. The high “I”s, do care about rejection. The biggest fear of a high “I” is rejection. So, you put a high “I” on the phone and it’s just gonna have a challenge. If high “I”s are great to work with, I will say warm customers, high Ds are great for cold calling or cold customers. Now, if we think about the “S” and the “C”, they are also great salespeople, but each of them is on their level. For example, the high “S”, because they are service-oriented, they are people-oriented, they are great for customer service. They are great to work with hot customers who already know our product, already know our company, because they are great. So, if you’re selling service, having someone who is a high “S” taking care of the customers after they were pre-qualified, is a great decision because that person will take care of that customer until the end. And then the high “C”s, they are great salespeople when you require a lot of information. For example, if you sell technology, if you sell something that has to be with a service or a product that requires something like computers, something that requires a lot of data, the high “C”s are great for doing that. Now, if we see it from the perspective of the customer, the high “C” is the customer that will ask you for information over and over and over and over and repeatedly. Right. And then if you put a high “D” salesperson working with a “C” customer, imagine the challenge that they’re going to have because the “D” wants things fast. The “C” needs information. It may take six months or eight months to make the decision, but the “D” doesn’t have the patient. So, what happens is that the “D” says, oh, this guy is wasting my time and they stop working with the customer. But the thing is the “S” and the “C” customers, take longer to make the decision, but they are very loyal customers. [16:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so funny. You know what? I am a “D” in an “I”. And I know when I’m speaking with a “C, I really must remind myself just to be patient and make sure that I pull out all the numbers and the stats. So, like you, I find this completely fascinating. Moving on, what is the biggest gap you’re seeing in businesses today?
Valeria Grunbaum: The lack of understanding that sales is the heart of their business. Period. That’s it. Business is struggling because they are so distracted by 10 million other things, and they are not putting effort into sales. Look, when we started, I remember the first few months of COVID, I remember speaking with some of my clients or clients or contacts, right? Business owners were calling me and saying: “Hey, you know, I just fired part of the company. I just fired these”. I was impressed how in most cases, the first team that they fired was people from their sales team. And I was like: “You’re doing it wrong” [18:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Why would they do that?
Valeria Grunbaum: Right, because if you don’t see sales as the heart of the business, then most likely you won’t have a business.
Nancy Calabrese: You won’t have a business. I totally agree with you. I can’t believe we are out of time, Valeria. You are fascinating. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Valeria Grunbaum: I would say pay attention yes to your process, to your products, to your operations, to your admin but make your sales the main focus of your business if you want to grow and if you want to have everything else operations products all of that will happen when you have sales.
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. How can my people find you?
Valeria Grunbaum: Well, they can find me on LinkedIn by Valeria Grunbaum or even go to my website valeriagrunbaum.com. But the easiest way, is LinkedIn, I’m there. So, it’s the easiest way to reach out to me. [19:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Yes, spell your last name.
Valeria Grunbaum: Grunbaum is G as in George, R as in Robert, U, N as in Nancy, B as in boy, A as in apple, U, M as in Mari. So, Valeria Grunbaum.
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. Beautiful name, beautiful name. Hey folks, reach out to her, please. She’s a wealth of knowledge. And you know, remember, no one is born a salesperson, but every business owner should be one. I hope you come back sometime Valeria and make it a great sales day everyone.
Valeria Grunbaum: Thank you. [19:49]
by Nancy Calabrese | Oct 17, 2023 | Podcast
About Eric Recker: Eric is the Owner and CEO of WintheNOW, LLC, where they help High-Achieving Leaders to #WINtheNOW and design a life where they are working to become the best version of themselves for themselves and those around them. He has also been a dentist since 2002 and has led a team of 18 dentists since 2002. Eric has been a pilot since 2018, traveling to 12 countries and 46 states. He has been mentoring and coaching most of his life. As a Certified Elite Success Coach, he works with high-achiever personalities who want to #WINtheNOW and enjoy life while realizing their goals. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Eric.
In this episode, Nancy and Eric discuss the following:
- What’s common in dentists and coaches?
- The story of Eric’s burnout journey.
- Lessons from climbing the mountain of life.
- Tips for leading a team of 18 and staying like a family.
- A pivot from dentistry to coaching and speaking.
- 30 minutes of quiet: the technique to hear yourself.
- How has COVID-19 changed Eric’s burnout phase?
Key Takeaways:
- One of the biggest things that I’ve been gifted with is to be able to teach from my journey.
- I had been so distracted by achievement, and I wasn’t getting any satisfaction out of any of this.
- As business owners, entrepreneurs, people in the business world, and even people in life, we must understand why we are working so hard, or we’ll end up with many hollow achievements.
- We won’t make it if we don’t have time for our brains to idle when we’re not consumed with screens.
“I believe that one of the most important things we have in our life is our relationships. So, in our office, we are a family. We go through highs and lows together. We go through the journey of life together. So, one of the significant things in our office is knowing our patients’ stories and our other team members’ stories. So, people from this other company had noticed: “Boy, when we come in for our appointments, we’re not just a number; we’re asked how we’re doing. We have a little bit of conversation before we sit down. And then, through every step of the process, we know what’s going on. We know the next step, and we’re noticed”. So that’s one thing I stress with my team is that we have to notice people because many people go through life and they’re never noticed. They may be because they’re isolated working from home, maybe because it can be a laundry list of reasons, but when they come into our office, if their name calls them and they are asked how they’re doing, then that’s two touch points right there where someone feels like they’re seen, heard, and they’re valued. And that’s huge in our current society.” – ERIC.
“Through those 30 minutes of quiet, and believe me, I failed big time when I started this. The first day I looked at my watch, 45 seconds into it, I thought: “Boy, I got to be getting close.” So I tried to give my mind just some space to run. Faith is a big part of my life, so having some quiet space for God to be able to speak to me or to be able to hear what’s impressed upon my heart. During that time, I had to bring myself back to the moment for the first couple of times, probably every minute or two as my mind would wander and use a re-centering phrase like: “I am here”. I would say to myself: “I am here, right here, right now”. And then, I would get back to focusing on my breathing. And things like that helped me stay in that moment, in that quiet moment. And I think without that the burnout would have spiraled more and more.” – ERIC.
“Yeah, I think what we’re going to find in our lives is the biggest regrets that we’re going to have been going to be at the end of our life when we realize things that we didn’t try, things that we more of the regrets of omission. The things that we didn’t put ourselves out there for. So, it’s important for people to know what success looks like at this stage of life. And then also to know that that’s dynamic. So, a year from now, success might look different. So, to keep re-examining that and realize: “Okay, what are the opportunities I have in front of me that I’m not taking advantage of? And the decisions I must make if I don’t do these things… Are these the things that I will regret five years down the road, ten years down the road?” – ERIC.
Connect with Eric Recker:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Eric Recter, owner and CEO of Win the Now. Eric helps high-achieving leaders design a life where they are working to become the best version of themselves for themselves and those around them. He is also a dentist, keynote speaker, elite success coach, author, pilot, mountain climber, and a recovering triathlete. Eric, I’m gonna just jump right in. Welcome to the show.
Eric Recker: Thanks for having me, Nancy. I’m excited to be here. [00:58]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I mean, I don’t honestly, I don’t know where to begin. You have such a fascinating background. I, and I’ve never had a dentist on the show before.
Eric Recker: Well, I don’t know if that’s good or bad. Maybe there are no expectations. So, it’ll be, it’ll just flow.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, I think there’s always a first time for everything. So, first question, I mean, how do you go from dentist to coaching and speaking?
Eric Recker: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, I think one of the biggest things that I’ve been gifted with is to be able to teach from my journey. So, the reason that I can speak, and coach is because I have a story of overcompensating. I have a story of chasing a lot of things that really didn’t matter. And the reason that you read so many things about me is because I have pushed my life to the limit. And for most of my life, I didn’t really know why I was pushing my life to the limit. So now that I’ve discovered that a little bit more, I love to help other people in their lives. [2:07]
Nancy Calabrese: I know you mentioned you have your burnout journey. What is that about?
Eric Recker: Yeah. So, I think I became, uh, burned out because I was bullied when I was growing up. And so, when I was younger in elementary school, I was not allowed to play recess kickball, so that doesn’t seem like much of a big thing when I’m 46 years old. But recess kickball was life. Among other things, as I was bullied, I was told that I wasn’t good enough. And so, I believe that story that I wasn’t good enough. And I remember as a third grader standing on the recess kickball field, off to the side, making a pact with myself that I was going to be so darn good at everything in my life that no one would ever not pick me again. And so, when you make such a declaration to yourself, then you live that way, and you chase everything to try to make people believe that you’re good enough. And burnout for me, largely came from pushing too hard and not taking care of myself. [3:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Whose decision was it that you weren’t allowed to play?
Eric Recker: The other kids on the playground. So right now, I’m 6’5″, pretty athletic, pretty lean. At that point, you could call me Husky. So, I was uncomfortable in my body. I was young for my class. I was rough around the edges. And quite honestly, I probably wasn’t very good, but my only hope was to be good enough, to be able to be on the field to prove to others that I was good enough to play.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Yeah, well, you know what? Shame on the teachers. They should have jumped right in, but sorry you had to go through that. Lessons from climbing the mountain of life. Talk about that.
Eric Recker: Yeah. So, this is part of the realization that I came to. It was always what was going to be good enough. So, I started with a 5k and that wasn’t good enough. And that got to a 10k half marathon, then into a triathlon through the Ironman distance. And none of that was ever good enough. And then I found myself at the top of a mountain in Colorado a couple of days before I was going to do a hundred-mile mountain bike race. And the realization I had at the top of that mountain is if you don’t know why you’re climbing the mountain, you’re not going to find the answer at the top. And so, I had been so distracted by achievement and I wasn’t getting any satisfaction out of any of this. So, it was just climbing the next mountain, doing the next thing, signing up for everything. Keep proving that you’re good enough. And I realized that I need to know why I’m climbing the mountain. And I think as business owners, entrepreneurs, people in the business world, and even people in life, we must understand what our why is. We must understand why we are working so hard or else we’re just going to end up with a bunch of hollow achievements. [5:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, Simon Sinek and his talk about why. And so, you have a team of 18 people, correct?
Eric Recker: Absolutely. I do, yes, in my dental practice.
Nancy Calabrese: In your dental practice and you shared with me that you were approached, or the front desk team was approached by another company asking to teach them communication skills. What was that about?
Eric Recker: Yeah, so I believe that one of the most important things that we have in our life is our relationships. So, in our office, we are a family. We go through highs and lows together. We go through the journey of life together. So, one of the things that’s extremely important in our office is knowing our patients’ stories and knowing our other team members’ stories. So, one of the things that our front desk is amazing at, and our entire team really is amazing at, is knowing people’s stories, walking along the journey with those people. So, people from this other company had noticed: “Boy, when we come in for our appointments, we’re not just a number, we’re asked how we’re doing”. We have a little bit of conversation before we sit down. And then through every step of the process, we know what’s going on. We know what the next step is going to be, and we’re noticed. So that’s one thing I really stress with my team is that we have to notice people because a lot of people go through life, and they’re never noticed. They may be because they’re isolated working from home, maybe because it can be a laundry list of reasons, but when they come into our office, if they are called by their name and they are asked how they’re doing, then that’s two touch points right there where someone feels like they’re seen, like they’re heard, and like they’re valued. And that’s huge in our current society. [7:33]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, I agree. I mean, communication is everything, you know, in sales, in business, in life in general. How did you pivot from dentistry to coaching and speaking?
Eric Recker: Yeah, great question. So, from the different seasons of burnout that I went through and especially ramping up towards COVID, COVID was, was crazy for everybody, but my family had a vacation plan to the south of Spain. So, we were going to stay in the Mediterranean Sea. We were going to do a whole bunch of fun stuff. We were going to travel to Morocco, to Tangier to see some of the places where the James Bond films were shot. And it was an important vacation for my family because my oldest son was graduating high school and it felt like the walls were closing in. He was going to head off to college. So then suddenly all our plans changed, and my plans changed, your plans changed, everybody’s plans changed. So, I had to figure out what to do with some discretionary time as my dental office was closed for eight weeks. And we were super fortunate in Iowa that we were only closed for eight weeks. I’m super thankful for that. But during that time, I committed to 30 minutes of quiet every day. And that was a foreign concept for me. I was always pushed through everything. [09:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Eric Recker: But through that 30 minutes of quiet and believe me, I failed big time when I started this out. I think the first day I looked at my watch, 45 seconds into it, and thought, boy, I got to be getting close. And I think a lot of people can resonate with that because we have, I don’t know about you, Nancy, but my head spins a lot of the time with a whole bunch of stuff, and quiet has been huge for me to try to slow that down. And during that time, that’s when I discovered the win the now message, which is all about helping people live present in their own lives, present to the current moment. So, we’re not stuck in the past or worried about the future because what we have is what’s right in front of us. [10:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, so 30 minutes of quiet, what are you thinking?
Eric Recker: Yeah, so what I tried to do is give my mind just some space to run. Faith is a big part of my life, so having some quiet space for God to be able to speak to me or to be able to hear what’s impressed upon my heart. During that time, I really had to bring myself back to the moment, you know, for the first couple of times, probably every minute or two as my mind would really wander and just use kind of a re-centering phrase like I am here. I would just say to myself, I am here, right here, right now. And then I would get back to focusing on my breathing. And things like that helped me stay in that moment, in that quiet moment. And I think without that the burnout just would have spiraled more and more and more. [10:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So, it sounds like you really changed the burnout phase during COVID, is that correct?
Eric Recker: Yeah, that was the attempt. Uh, but what was crazy about our profession is that we were kind of dentistry was kind of seen as, maybe not public enemy number one, but we were pretty high because the procedures that we did generate aerosols and there was the potential for high contact of COVID with our patients. So that’s why we were shut down. Well, when we went, came back, there were all kinds of new air purifiers and vacuum machines that we would put close to people’s mouths while we were doing procedures and extra PPE and all of that. So ironically, the burnout got worse because I was trying to manage my team who was overwhelmed by how hot we were when we worked with all this extra gear on, how hard it was to breathe behind an N95 mask, and all of that. So, the burnout increased after COVID, which is not what I was hoping would happen. Yeah, and ultimately, I got very close to selling my dental practice and walking away because of the level of burnout. [12:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Well, things have changed now, haven’t they?
Eric Recker: Things have absolutely changed. And at this point, I did end up selling half of my dental practice to a partner. It’s a fantastic relationship. And so now I’m able to through win the now and the different things that I, that I have learned over my life. I’ve started doing some keynote speaking, some coaching, and some writing. And now I have, so Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I see patients in my office. Thursday and Friday, I work on what I call the content side of my business. So that’s the speaking and coaching and content creation. [13:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, you’re still juggling a lot though, would you say?
Eric Recker: For sure, for sure. And so, I must be careful with how I structure my days because it can lead to burnout again. So, things like making sure I stick with the quiet, and making sure I do things like time blocking to make sure that I’m not just letting my mind run are important. [13:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Eric Recker: Hmm, something that’s true that no one agrees with me on. I think we’ve bought the lie that, and I know maybe not everybody doesn’t agree with this, but we’ve bought the lie that, um, it’s okay to be isolated and it’s okay to spend all the time that we do on our devices and on our streaming services and all of that, but I really think that we are in a time that if we don’t have good quality relationships, and if we don’t have times for our brains to idle when we’re not consumed with screens, then we’re not going to make it. We might survive, but we’re not going to thrive. [14:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh! And what is the one takeaway you’d like to leave the audience with?
Eric Recker: Yeah, I think what’s what we’re going to find in our lives is the biggest regrets that we’re going to have been going to be at the end of our life when we realize things that we didn’t try things that we more of the regrets of omission. The things that we, that we didn’t put ourselves out there for. So, to me, I think it’s important for people to know what success looks like at this stage of life. And then also to know that that’s dynamic. So, a year from now, success might look different. So, to keep re-examining that and realize: “Okay, what are the opportunities that I have in front of me that I’m not taking advantage of? And the decisions that I must make if I don’t do these things… Are these the things that I’m going to regret five years down the road, 10 years down the road?” [15:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Do you have any other aspirations, any feat that you want to achieve?
Eric Recker: Yeah, so I, it’s been a little while since I’ve had, a physical challenge. So, I kind of kicked triathlon to the curb several years ago. I’ve climbed a couple of mountains. There’s a, there’s a challenge that I want to do next year that involves, involves mountain climbing, but basically, there’s a place that will rent out a ski resort for the weekend and you hike up and take the sky tram back down or ski lift back down until you get to a total of 29,000 vertical feet. So, it’s a Mount Everest climbing simulation without the snow and the risk of dying and all that kind of stuff. It’s a 36-hour challenge so that’s what I’m hoping to get on my calendar for next year. We’ll see where the locations are. They haven’t been released yet, but I need a physical challenge. [16:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, my goodness. And did you ever make it to Spain?
Eric Recker: We have not made it to Spain yet. It remains on the bucket list and, uh, but we’ve had a lot of life transitions with my oldest son getting married, my youngest son, we moved him to college just this last weekend. So, we’re kind of in the take a deep breath phase right now.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, okay. Eric, how can my people find you?
Eric Recker: Yeah, the easiest place to find me is my website. It’s just www.ericrecker.com. From there, there are links to all my social media. There are links to my keynote speaking and coaching and the book that I wrote. And the blog that I do weekly. So that’s kind of home base for me and a great place to start. [17:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Wonderful. I can’t thank you enough for sharing your amazing story. I mean, now I’m motivated. I’ve got to figure out something I must do, but I don’t think it’s going to be athletic. Not the way you are athletically anyway. So, everyone, reach out to Eric. He’s so fascinating. And he is, as you can hear, very welcoming to listen to. Share your stories with him. Make it a great sales day. And Eric, again, thanks for being on the show.
Eric Recker: Thanks so much for having me, Nancy. [17:57]
