by Nancy Calabrese | Dec 14, 2023 | Podcast
About Jenn Drummond: A car accident in 2018 left Jenn Drummond awestruck and emboldened. Rescue workers couldn’t imagine any scenario where she came out of it alive, but she did. That’s when she realized you don’t get to choose when you leave this life…but you sure can choose how you live it. Strengthened by this awareness, she set out to live more authentically and adventurously. Inspired to climb a mountain for her birthday, her son raised the stakes by suggesting Mount Everest. Not one to back down from a challenge, she accepted the pursuit. During her training, her coach upped the ante and proposed she go for a Guinness World Record and become the first woman to climb the 7-second summits. The pursuit matched her desire to live a life of significance, not just success. Today, Jenn is a world record holder who elevates others to master their summit in life. She’s a successful business owner and Mom of 7 remarkable kids who, as you have heard, boldly inspire and brazenly challenge her. She’s also an international speaker, author, and Host of the Seek Your Next Summit podcast, focused on inspiring others to go beyond success to a life of significance. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Jenn.
In this episode, Nancy and Jenn discuss the following:
- The concept of the seven-second summits.
- Jenn’s journey of reevaluating life and setting ambitious goals.
- Jenn’s training routine and creative training methods.
- The euphoria of setting a world record.
- Lessons from mountain experiences.
- The “What’s your Everest?” concept.
- Jenn’s Bold, Brave, and Beautiful Philosophy.
- The importance of checking in with oneself.
Key Takeaways:
- That woke me up to the concept that I don’t get to choose when I die, but I sure get to choose how I live.
- It hasn’t been done by a female, harder than the first seven continents, seven mountains, seven children: I think it sounds like a jackpot.
- I took the mountain experiences and extracted lessons that apply to the metaphorical mountains we climb every day.
- So do you because doing you gives others the courage to do themselves, and everybody benefits.
- I want the audience to own who they are and step into that as much as possible.
“ So, when I started everything, I had no social media whatsoever because I just thought it was all racket and that wasn’t necessary, and why would I share all this? This is my private life. And one of my friends convinced me, she’s like: “Listen, we rarely get to see the environments that you’re going to. We’re not going to take on these mountains like you are. The closest that I get to having this experience is through you. So, it would be amazing if you would be willing to share this because it gives me a chance to be involved”. I was like: “Okay, sure.” So, I started the site as Bold. Brave. Beautiful. And those words came together because you have to be bold enough to say YES to what sets your heart on fire. Then, you have to be brave enough to put action behind it and be willing to be a beginner in whatever you’re doing. And by doing those two things, being bold and being brave, whatever unfolds is beautiful because it’s your story.” – JENN.
“ I’m checking in. You know, I think we need to just check in with ourselves and say: “Hey, is this working? Is this what I want my life to look like? Does this feel good? Is this getting me closer to my goals, or what am I doing right now? And is that hurting my progress?”. So, I feel, you know, the book’s called Break-Proof, and I feel we either break or take a break. So, taking a break is the proactive piece of that. Breaking is the reactive piece to it. And so, if we can plug in breaks and take those and just reflect and say: “Yeah, this is where I want to go, or this is what I want it to look like, or all this stuff’s coming together.” Then you’re taking a proactive approach to your life and living with intention.” – JENN.
“No one agrees with me on this. You know, I have a grump dump. So, I think the whole world has a gratitude journal, right? And everybody’s like, listen to, list your gratitude, and do your gratitude journal and all these different things. I am grateful, 100%. But I also have grumpy things that go on, things that don’t go my way, or things that I get frustrated with. And I have a journal, and I call it the grump dump. And I dump all those. I put terrible thoughts or feelings or unheard pieces of me into that journal to get it out of me instead of just pretending I’m happy all the time. And that grump dump journal helps me be authentic and lean into gratitude, but I need to get that yuck out and not pretend it’s not there.” – JENN.
Connect with Jenn Drummond:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with a human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Jenn Drummond, a mom of seven, successful business owner, and a world record holder on each of the seven continents, she now spends her time inspiring others to create a thriving business and lasting legacy of their own. She shares her story and strategies for success through her book, Quit Proof, Seven Strategies to Build Resilience and Achieve Your Life Goals. She has a podcast entitled, Seek Your Summit, and does public speaking. Jen is the founder of Bold Brave Beautiful, a blog and community where she invites people to become more conscious of their life purpose and act toward achieving what seems impossible. Welcome to the show, Jenn. You achieved something that seems impossible to most of us.
Jenn Drummond: Hello, hello, thanks for having me. [1:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, my goodness. I got to understand. Now I know that you were the first female world record holder to climb the second highest summits on each of the contents. So, what are the seven-second summits?
Jenn Drummond: Yes. So that’s the question I had when my coach gave me the idea. Um, so it’s the second highest point of each of the seven continents in North America, that mountain would be called Mount Logan, located in Canada. South America. We have Ojos del Salado. That’s located in Chile and the Atacama Desert and Arctica. We have Mount Tyree Africa. We have Mount Kenya Australia. We have Mount Townsend. In Asia, we have K2. And then in Europe, we have Dictal, which is in Russia. [2:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, why the second and not the first?
Jenn Drummond: Yeah, you know, the first have been done by maybe 500 or so people. The second has only been completed by one male. I’m the first female to take that attempt on and or to complete it. And so, I was interested in it because it hadn’t been done by a woman. It had only been done by one person before they were harder than the first seven. Um, so I thought it’d just be more challenging if I was going to take it on. And I really wanted to do it as a like mother empowerment, female empowerment, we got this ladies. [3:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, so why are they harder than the first?
Jenn Drummond: No, just the topography and the location and the less commercialization. So, for example, in Africa, a lot of people climb Kilimanjaro, which is referred to as the roof of Africa, because it’s the highest point, you can modify a wheelchair to get to the top of Kilimanjaro. Mount Kenya is a 20-pitch rock climb. And so, you have to have a harness on and rock-climbing shoes and You climb up to a point with your climbing partner and then you’ll do like another stretch of rope and we even needed crampons and an ice axe when we climbed it. So just a lot more complex of a climb than a traditional hike. [3:50]
Nancy Calabrese: So, when did you get involved in all of this?
Jenn Drummond: Yeah, so I started in 2020. 2018, I was in a horrific car crash. Sorry.
Nancy Calabrese: No, I heard. I mean, tell us your story.
Jenn Drummond: Yeah, yeah. So, 2018, I was in a horrific car crash that should have taken my life and didn’t. That woke me up to the concept, I don’t get to choose when I die, but I sure get to choose how I live. And I thought, you know what? I need to start living. I was putting my life on hold until my kids went to college. And that was kind of the story that I sold myself. And after that car accident, I’m like, nope, I’m doing life in parallel. We’re going to start doing this thing together. So, 2019 was a big year of reflection and I started to make a master bucket list of all the things I wanted to do, experience, explore, all that fun. And on that list was climbing a mountain. So 2020, I was turning 40. I thought, you know what? I’m going to climb a mountain to launch this next decade of life. And so, I asked some mountain-hearing friends, what would be a good mountain to climb? And they came back with a mountain named Amma de Blom. I’m like, okay. And they’re like, you know, it’s the Paramount Pictures logo. It means the mother’s necklace. It’s located in Nepal and the Himalayas on the way to Everest. I’m like, hey, that sounds perfect. I’ll do Alma De Blom. So here I am training for this mountain and COVID strikes. And so, I’m not going anywhere. And instead, I’m becoming a homeschool teacher to seven beautiful children. What am I? Yes, exactly. Wow. [5:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow.
Jenn Drummond: One of my kids was struggling with his math homework. I’m like, listen, buddy, we do hard things. You’ve got this. You know, I’m giving him the parent pep talk. And he looks at me and he goes, if we do hard things, why you climb in a mountain called I’m a dumb blonde instead of a real mountain like Mount Everest? I’m like, I’m a de Blom, honey, not I’m a dumb blonde. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You know what, you finish your homework, we’ll look at Everest. So, he did and we did and then he went to bed and I thought about it and I was like, you know what? If Everest is the biggest, hardest mountain he can think of in the world, I’m going to climb it. And I’m going to show him that whatever Everest is, we can sum it. And so, I called a coach, the coach sent me a book about becoming an uphill athlete. And then when I started reading this book, there was a lady in the front who got a Guinness World Record for doing something in the Alps. And all I remember is a phone call with my coach and I was saying, you know what? I could have done that. I can suffer. And my kids would think I’m the coolest mom in the whole world because they learned how to read and Guinness World Record books. And right now, homeschooling mom here is not cool. I am not winning any points with my children. And so, my coach is like, I’ll come back with something. I’m like, okay, fine, but I’m not growing pumpkins or speed-eating hot dogs or any of that crazy stuff that goes in that record book. He’s like, don’t worry. And then he came back with the seven-second summit idea and said, hey, let’s think about this. Hasn’t been done by a female, harder than the first seven, seven continents, seven mountains, seven children. I think it sounds like a jackpot. And I said, you know what? It kind of does. So., I said yes, I hadn’t slept in a tent before, but you know, those are details. [7:33]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So, but I have a question. How do you train for something like this?
Jenn Drummond: You know, lucky for me, I live at altitude. So, living at altitude in Park City helps. I’m in Park City, Utah, so we have lots of mountains here that turn into ski resorts in the winter. So, I would do a lot of hiking outdoors. And then, you know, I have seven children. So, a lot of my training looked like my son would have a soccer game and I would show up to the soccer game with a 12-inch step and a backpack full of water bottles. While he was playing his game, I was going up and down that step to get, I’m on my feet and start training. [8:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So, what is it like setting a world record? I mean, what was the feeling you had?
Jenn Drummond: Yeah, you know, it was very euphoric at the moment. I remember at the beginning of the quest, it just felt like it was forever. Like, would this even happen? It’s forever, I can’t believe I signed up for this. And then you’re halfway through, you’re like, oh wow, like this is coming together. And then I had one mountain left, that was this past spring, Mount Logan in Canada, which took me two tries. And so, when I was back this spring, I’m like, oh my goodness, this could be it. For the last two and a half years of my life have been dedicated to this quest and it could be done after this adventure. So, I remember getting to the top and I took in the deepest breath I could take in. When I brought that breath into my lungs, everything disappeared. There was no time, there was no distance, there was no cold, there was no warmth. It was like I was one with the world. [9:18]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Jenn Drummond: And yeah, and then I started exhaling and things started separating again. And I realized there’s not a lot of oxygen up there. So, we need to start coming down. When I came home it felt surreal. And almost there was a tinge of disappointment. Like it was done because it was so much fun to pursue and take on. And then I came home and landed at the airport and one of my sons met me there and he hugged me. And he’s like, congrats. I’m like, thanks so much, honey. He goes, Mom, you have bad breath. I’m like, and there you go, there’s life. Back in your face, just living the dream. [9:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Getting you down to reality, right? You’re home.
Jenn Drummond: Oh, instantly. Mom, you’re still a mom.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So how do you help people climb their own mountains?
Jenn Drummond: Um, you know, I wrote a book, Breakproof, Seven Strategies to Build Resilience and Achieve Your Life Goals. And what I did was I took the mountain experiences, and I extracted lessons that apply to the metaphorical mountains that we climb every day. And so I take you on those expeditions and I give you some tips and tricks that worked for me to summit my mountains to help you summit yours. And I think there’s just a lot of little things that add up to success. [10:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Well, what could be people’s mountains? Give me some examples.
Jenn Drummond: You know, we use the term in our house, what’s your Everest? And when I climbed Everest, I did a goal-setting campaign with my kids’ school and helped all the kids set what their Everest goal was. And just using that language allows me and each other and our family to know, okay, this is the big thing you’re working on, right? So, my son is trying out for the lacrosse team. That’s his Everest right now. So we’re looking at that, what do you need to do? What do you need to train? How do you need to sleep? How do you need to eat? What can we do to get you ready for those tryouts? A friend of mine is launching a new beauty line and that’s her Everest right now. So we’re looking at the end, what she hopes to achieve and we’re backing it into today and we’re helping her build a calendar out of, okay, should we be here by this timeframe? What should this look like at this point? And we’re starting to just put the pieces in motion and get the people on the team to bring all of it to fruition. [11:52]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah. What would you like me to spotlight? I know that you have, I think, another book coming out, don’t you?
Jenn Drummond: Well, the book was originally called Quit Proof and we changed the name to Break Proof because I feel breaking has a more positive connotation than quitting. So yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, got it. Yeah, well, I would agree with you, Dad. And tell us more about Bold, Brave, and Beautiful.
Jenn Drummond: Yes. So, when I started everything, I had no social media whatsoever because I just, thought it was all racket and that wasn’t necessary and why would I share all this? This is my private life. And one of my friends convinced me, she’s like, listen, we rarely get to see the environments that you’re going to. We’re not going to take on these mountains like you are. The closest that I get to having this experience is through you. So, it would be amazing if you would be willing to share this because then it gives me a chance to kind of be involved. I was like, okay, sure. So, I started the site as Bold, Brave, and Beautiful. And those words came together in the standpoint of you have to be bold enough to say yes to what sets your heart on fire. Then you have to be brave enough to put action behind it and be willing to be a beginner in whatever you’re doing. And by doing those two things, being bold and being brave, whatever unfolds is beautiful because it’s your story. [13:23]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. I love it. So, when you’re working with a client, how long is the transformation? How long does it take for people to find their own Everest or feel bold, brave, and beautiful?
Jenn Drummond: Yes. You know, it’s an individual journey. I wish there was this exact timeframe. I do run through a seven-week course with people that covers different topics, but then some people hire me on for a longer period to just get into more of the nitty-gritty detail. Some just want the framework and it just is a very individualized approach to the system that worked for me. [14:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Yeah, going back to the mountains, which one was your favorite?
Jenn Drummond: Da! It’s like asking what your favorite kid on each mountain had such a unique story and a unique experience. And I’m grateful for all of them. I will say that spending time in Antarctica was magical because I don’t think I’d go to Antarctica for any other reason. So having a reason to go there, brought me there. And just, I don’t know, being in the southernmost part of the world being in an area that’s sunny the entire time because we went during like the winter for us as the summer for Antarctica, being in an environment that didn’t have any plants or animals or bugs or color, right? There are no green leaves, there’s no red trees, there’s no purple. It’s just, it was a very interesting experience and I’m very grateful I had the opportunity to go there. [15:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Wow. So, seven kids, I can’t imagine. I have one and that’s enough for me. So, what advice do you give others when you’re balancing your life?
Jenn Drummond: I’m checking in. You know, I think we need to just check in with ourselves and say, hey, is this working? Is this what I want my life to look like? Does this feel good? Is this getting me closer to my goals or what am I doing right now? And is that hurting my progress? So, I really feel, you know, the book’s called break-proof and I feel we either break or we take a break. So, taking a break is the proactive piece of that. Breaking is the reactive piece to it. And so, if we can plug in breaks and take those and just reflect and say, yeah, this is where I want to go, or this is what I want it to look like, or all this stuff’s coming together. Then you’re taking a proactive approach to your life and living with intention. [16:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Wow. Tell me something true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Jenn Drummond: No one agrees with me on this. You know, I have a grump dump. So, I think the whole world has a gratitude journal, right? And everybody’s like, listen to, list your gratitude, and do your gratitude journal and all these different things. I am grateful, 100%. But I also have grumpy things that go on things that don’t go my way or things that I get frustrated with. And I have a journal and I call it the grump dump. And I dump all those. terrible thoughts or feelings or unheard pieces of me into that journal so that I can get it out of me instead of just pretending I’m happy all the time. And that grump dump journal helps me be authentic and lean into gratitude, but I need to get that yuck out and not pretend it’s not there. [16:58]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. I love it. What a great idea. You know, I just left a meeting, and somebody threw out, how many times do people complain each day on average? Do you have any idea? Isn’t that interesting? 26 times. Yep. Yeah. And then somebody chimed in, and he said, yeah, I do that before 10 o’clock every morning.
Jenn Drummond: Really? Oh jeez!
Nancy Calabrese: Well, you don’t think about it, you know, it really kind of makes you sit back and say, what about the positive things, right? It’s harder to be positive than it is to be negative.
Jenn Drummond: It is. It’s, definitely. [17:40]
Nancy Calabrese: Harder. We are almost out of time. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Jenn Drummond: I want the audience to just own who they are and step into that as much as possible. I had put my life on hold because I thought it was the noble thing to do. I got into a horrific car crash that should have taken my life and didn’t. And I look back on the last five years of my life since that accident and think about how much I filled my cup. And by doing that, how much of a ripple effect it had on the people around me in such a positive way that I know each one of us, wherever we are in the world, is making a difference to those around us. So do you, because doing you gives others the courage to do themselves and everybody benefits. [18:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Wow. How can my audience find you?
Jenn Drummond: Yes, so please check out my website, www.jenndrummond.com. You can find my book, you can learn about some challenges, my speaking events, and I have all my social media accounts there, so reach out on whatever your favorite platform is and say hello.
Nancy Calabrese: Say hello, everyone. Thanks so much for being on the show, Jen. You’re inspiring. And I can’t wait to get this out to the audience. And everyone who’s listening, really take a moment, read about Jenn’s story, reach out to her. Certainly, you know what I’m thinking, Jenn? If they’re having a bad day, they need to talk to you for sure. You’re full of inspiration, right? [19:30]
Jenn Drummond: I’m in, I’m in. Please call me. Good days, and bad days in between. I’m here to support you.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. You got it. And you’re allowed to have what’s that journal that you keep? The Grump Dump. Love it. Love it. Everyone, make it a great sales day and we’ll see you next time. [19:47]
by Nancy Calabrese | Dec 12, 2023 | Podcast
About Brian Jackson:Brian Jackson is the Owner of The Sandler Sales Coaching Program and a sales coach of the Sandler Methodology since 2006. His passion is helping seasoned, professional salespeople reach their greatest potential – both personally and professionally – by watching them win. Before owning Sandler Training, Brian invested over 20 years in healthcare equipment & SAAS sales, having served the most recent 12 years in various leadership roles. He enjoys coaching Owners, Executives, and all customer-facing, “selling” people within the Technology/SAAS vertical. Also, Brian has spoken on a wide variety of business and personal development topics and is available to speak at corporate events, trade shows, etc. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Brian.
In this episode, Nancy and Brian discuss the following:
- A nerd at heart: the sales nature of Brian Jackson.
- The art of persuasion is all about selling, and the selling is all about communication.
- Brian’s way of getting into Sandler’s world.
- What differentiates Sandler from other sales methodologies?
- Features and benefits versus consultative selling.
- DISC and Sandler go hand in hand.
- Useful tricks to learn from DISC.
Key Takeaways:
- Not many people grow up saying, “I want to be in sales,” but I’m one of those.
- I always knew that in the back of my mind, being a Sandler trainer was something I could do and enjoy, so here I am.
- Take advantage of the technology out there to prepare for your conversations.
- If you’re a salesperson, you do not need to feel so much pressure to be the one to convince, persuade, and manipulate others magically.
- Sandler takes your career to another level.
“ Be the contrarian salesperson. Get out of your way. Stop trying to sell, persuade, and manipulate people. Stop trying to script out what you’re going to say. Instead, guide people on a path of self-discovery instead of trying to convince them. Go for the no. Guide them to self-discovery. Let them argue with you why they have the problems you solve and why they should be committed to fixing them. My favorite saying in the rule is, “People do not argue with their own data.” To finish answering your question, I believe the art and the science of selling are to guide people on that path of self-discovery because they don’t argue with their own data. And if you can do that, then you don’t have the objections in the first place.” – BRIAN.
“Sandler is important in personal communication because you want other people to feel that they’re heard, understood, and prioritized. Like you said, selling is not about you. It’s about the other person. So, there’s no question that people like me who have bought into the standard franchise model or participants see improvements in our relationships just as much as we see improvements in our selling efforts because it’s a different way that we treat people in our communication because of understanding Sandler. ” – BRIAN.
“When I’m teaching DISC, I explain to people that once you know DISC, you can’t go through your life the same way ever again. I’ll be in the grocery store checkout aisle and overhear a conversation. I’ll know somebody’s DISC style. You know, when I meet somebody, I can subconsciously register their eye color, hair color, ethnicity, background, and distance. And you treat people how they would want to be treated. You’re going to ask why it is so important. You’re going to keep your conversation short and tight, to the point, focus on, you know, you’re going to dab naturally. And that’s just critical to selling.” – BRIAN.
Connect with Brian Jackson:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today, we’re speaking with Brian Jackson, owner of the Sandler sales coaching program. A sales coach of the Sandler Methodology since 2006, his passion is helping seasoned professional salespeople reach their greatest potential, both personally and professionally by watching them win. Brian has accrued over 25 years of sales, sales leadership, and consulting experience. He has personally closed over $100 million of new business throughout his career and he has proudly hired and mentored several leaders of enterprise sales organization. Brian’s sales coaching business has served over a thousand participants achieving results with any revenue-generating professionals. Welcome to the show, Brian. You know I love Sandler.
Brian Jackson: Thank you, Nancy. It’s good. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. [1:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, so in doing some homework on you, you call yourself a nerd at heart. Why is that?
Brian Jackson: Well, I mean, you know, when you’re short fat kid with braces and glasses and you have to learn how to talk away out of fighting that content that qualifies you as being a nerd but I’m a sales nerd. My dad was in sales, in sales leadership. I am kind of a weird case study in that I’ve kind of known that I was going to go into sales from a pretty young age just because I saw my dad’s lifestyle working from home and doing well financially so there are not a lot of people who grew up saying “I want to be in sales” but I’m one of those “So here I am now sales coach and I do love coaching salespeople”. [2:08]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Well, it’s funny, I think everybody is in sales whether they admit it or not. The art of persuasion is all about selling and the selling is all about communication, right?
Brian Jackson: Right. Yep, I agree with you 100%.
Nancy Calabrese: So, what made you get involved in Sandler?
Brian Jackson: Well so I was dragged kicking in screaming in the Sandler back into 2006 because I was uh… another twenty-year-old hot shot that never failed in any sales job but I was told that hey you have to go through Sandler if you’re going to be in our sales leadership bench and ultimately once I got into Sandler, I realized how different it is compared to other methodologies and different sorts of training programs. And because of its sort of purity and consultative nature, it’s the opposite of traditional selling, I took on to it and became very passionate about it. And eventually, you know, when I wanted to be my businessman, I always knew that in the back of my mind being a Sandler trainer was something that I could do and that I would enjoy, so here I am. [3:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So why is Sandler’s different than other sales methodologies?
Brian Jackson: Boy, there’s so much to that question, right? But it goes back to the beginning I mean it’s kind of an interesting story if you read about you know what David Sandler went through before starting center key, he went to countless sales coaching training workshops and found that they were just teaching salespeople to go out and say the same scripty things, so he stumbled across this book begins people play which is what gave birth to transactional analysis sort of a paradigm of psychology that it gives us more or less a predictable model of human behavior and he said you know what I can apply this to selling and so what it comes to is this is that in Sandler we have a rule: “If other salespeople are doing it stop!”. [4:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Brian Jackson: Be the contrarian salesperson. Get out of your way. Stop trying to sell, persuade, and manipulate people. Stop trying to script out what you’re going to say. Instead, guide people on a path of self-discovery instead of trying to convince them. Go for the no. Guide them to self-discovery. Let them argue with you as to why they have the problems that you solve and why they should be committed to fixing them. And my favorite saying in the rule is that: “People do not argue with their own data”, to finish answering your question. I believe the art and the science of selling are to guide people on that path of self-discovery because they don’t argue with their own data. And if you can do that, then you don’t have the objections in the first place. [5:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Features and benefits versus consultative selling. What are your thoughts on that?
Brian Jackson: Well, one of the things I liked about your website and your LinkedIn page when I was sort of researching and doing some background on your NANCY is you talked about how you broker Conversational Selling, right? And you know, feature benefit selling is a monologue, right? It’s a, hey, you know, feature benefit selling is a monologue, right? Here’s my pitch and that’s a lot of that’s not a conversation is you’re giving information in their gathering information so I knew this is going to come up in our conversation Nancy there’s a Sandler Rule which is that you prove your value as a salesperson not by the information that you disperse but by the information that you gather that’s how you prove your values as a person so that only happens when you can have a conversation and when you can keep your prospect talking the majority of the time guiding them on that path of self-discovery that’s your question. [6:17]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, to me, selling is all about them, not about us. The way you learn and understand your prospect’s needs is through the quality of the questions that you ask, right? Wouldn’t you agree?
Brian Jackson: Yep. 100%. Yes, absolutely.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. And why is Sandler important in personal communication?
Brian Jackson: Oh man, personal communication. I mean, it’s important because you want other people to feel that they’re heard, that they’re understood, and that they’re prioritized. Like you said, selling is not about you. It’s about the other person. So, there’s no, no question that people like me who have bought into the standard franchise model or participants we see improvements in our personal relationships just as much as we see improvements in our selling efforts because it’s a different way that we treat people in our communication because of understanding Sandler. [7:30]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, it kind of also ties into DISC, which I love. And I know you’re a big proponent of why DISC is so important in communication.
Brian Jackson: I don’t know. Yeah, you’re right. I mean, DISC and Sandler go hand in hand. You know, when I’m teaching DISC, I explain to people that once you know DISC, you can’t go through your life the same way ever again. I’ll be in the grocery store checkout aisle and I’ll, and I’ll overhear a conversation. I’ll know somebody’s DISC style. You know, like, so when I meet somebody, I can register subconsciously their eye color, their hair color, their ethnicity, their background, and their distance, you know? And you just treat people the way that you, that they would want to be treated. You’re going to, why is it so important. You’re going to keep your conversation short and tight, to the point, focus on, you know, you’re going to dab naturally. And that’s just, obviously, that’s critical to selling. [8:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. I love DISC. You know, it’s interesting when you mentioned, especially from a personal point of view, that I know my daughter’s DISC style. And I know because I understand her way of communication, I get more out of her. She doesn’t know I know that. But it’s just amazing to me.
Brian Jackson: Yes. Nancy, have you noticed that you know how they say opposites attract? I think some people think that the wrong way. Like they think that like people with opposite political views or things like that. I think what they’re talking about is DISC because I’ve noticed that couples often have opposite DISC styles. In my case, I’m a high DC or CD, and my wife is the opposite. She’s like an IS, and that makes sense, right? It makes sense because we kind of fill each other’s gaps. We make a good team in that way. But then there’s also a lot of, there can be a lot of friction when, I can be very direct about things and she sometimes does not express herself and I see that in a lot of relationships, opposite disc style. So going back to what you said, obviously Sandler, DISC, is very, very relevant to not just selling but your own life. [10:10]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, you remind me, I was dating a fellow. I’m a high D and he’s a C. And that’s about the time when I was introduced to DISC. Anyway, that relationship didn’t go very far. He drove me crazy.
Brian Jackson: Maybe a little too much overlap, too much head-banging.
Nancy Calabrese: Uh, way too much. Yeah, way too much. So, is there anything in particular you would like me to spotlight? Anything going on with your organization that you want to share?
Brian Jackson: Well, I’ll tell you one thing I’m just really proud of being a part of Sandler’s we’re really on top of our game in terms of all the technology innovations and technology disruptions to modern selling. We’re having a virtual summit, which is a half-day event on October 11th. And it’s birthed from about two months ago, we did a webinar on how to use chat GPT to drive more sales revenue. That webinar registered over 5,000 participants, which is crazy. Yeah, and so they said: “Hey, to their credit, let’s expand on this”. So, they’re doing this virtual summit on October 11th, and I’ve already invited all my past clients and current clients. And I can’t even keep up with how many have registered. I think I’ve already registered over probably 50 myself. But I encourage anybody who’s listening to this, if it’s not too late, to register or to go. I know that they’re going to record the sessions. And so, if you’re listening to this podcast beyond October 11th, go on to the podcast a Sandler website, go on to mine and find that and you can watch the recordings of that summit. [11:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Well, I signed up for it. I’m going to be there. And you know, you kind of beat me to it. I also sat through that webinar with chat GPT. How is that? How does that play into sales? Your point of view.
Brian Jackson: Oh God, well, you know, so much of selling is, or at least so much of communication nowadays is over email. And, you know, as a sales coach, I’m constantly having to pull my clients to say, hey, stop trying to sell over email. You got to get ear to ear, you got to get face to face, but we can’t avoid it. You’re going to have to use email a lot. And so, what ChatGPT can help with, and this is kind of coming full circle. Nancy, but it can help you adapt your emails to different DISC styles. You can take an email and say, hey, help me write this email to somebody who has a high D DISC personality. That’s what AI can do for us. And it’s not just ChatGPT. There are other platforms out there. I believe one is Humantic, I think that the name Crystal Nose is another one. Others can help you with steering your messaging to specific personality styles or just sharpening your messaging altogether. I mean, that’s what ChatGPT can help you with. [13:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, it’s funny, I’ve used Crystal Nose and I think it’s Humantic. And it’s a really valuable add-on to LinkedIn. So, before I meet first-time appointments, I go to their LinkedIn profile and then I have a synopsis of who I’m communicating with. Are they a D? And you know, in many cases, Brian, many of the people that I speak with, they’re business owners. They are Ds or Cs, I find.
Brian Jackson: Yeah. And if you think about how hard it in your prospecting efforts is to get somebody on the phone or somebody face to face, boy, you better put some effort into preparing for that conversation because nowadays with all this technology that we have, that technology makes people accessible. It also makes it easier for people to hide. So, you know, take advantage of the technology that’s out there to prepare for your conversations. And you know, you only get so many chances to email people as well before they ghost you, block you, unsubscribe, or whatever. So, I mean, that’s why it’s critical to use these platforms. Make sure your messaging is sharp. [14:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Recently in our Sandler class, we were encouraged to reach out to people that we hadn’t spoken with in a couple of months. I have HubSpot. I think you guys promote HubSpot too, right? Yeah. So, I did a reconnect email, very simple. And I emailed it to, I don’t know, a thousand contacts that I hadn’t spoken with for 90 days. And within two days, I got responses, and I booked in my first week, 30 appointments, 30. I always felt like it was too much. When I look at my calendar now, my calendar is blowing up, but I was shocked at the number of responses I got, number one, and a couple of them are leading to second and third appointments. Other ones are, you know: “Hi, how are you?”. But the value to that is, you know, you’re top of mind again. And I’ve been getting some referrals from these people. So, I encourage anybody out there to do something like that. It works. [15:59]
Brian Jackson: Well, send me a template, send me that template you used. I want to see what the template bullet looks like.
Nancy Calabrese: I will do that, I promise. What’s a fun fact about you?
Brian Jackson: Oh gosh. Well, a fun fact. Well, I see I have four kids, you know, 16, 14, 11, and five little five-year-old girls and three boys. So, I don’t know if that’s a fun fact, but that seems to be kind of the center of my life. My life is centered around my kids. That’s my passion. [16:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, I would say your life isn’t boring, that’s for sure.
Brian Jackson: No, it’s not. It’s not at all. They keep me very busy, yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Hahaha. Yeah, so tell me something true in sales that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Brian Jackson: That’s such a wow, God. Something true in sales that almost nobody agrees with me on. You know, one of the things that I get a lot of pushbacks from for people that are brand new to Sandler is the component of the upfront contract where I coach people that upfront, one of the fastest ways to gain trust and instant credibility is to tell someone something that’s not in your own best interest. Before we start this conversation, let’s just take a very, very generic example going to give them sticker shock that it is a high price every single time people say wow well tell them upfront before we get into this I just want you to know people often have sticker shock when they find out how much this is here’s a range of how much it is and I still this from john ross so one of our most uh… sort of famous center coaches but he would say, should we stop the conversation now? And I love that. I love that we and Sandler do all that upfront. Get it all out front, the agenda, the expectations, what the outcomes are going to be, what we call our fears. So, should we stop the conversation? And you know what? Most of the time they’re going to say, no, why? Because they’re curious. Why would anybody want that, right? And we know that ultimately people are there to do that because they want information they’re going to stay in the conversation until they get that information which means that we keep that leverage that information take to our chest until they’re properly qualified and then by the time we get to the budget we tell us because hey there’s not that sticker shock anymore because we told them up front it takes courage to do that though and a lot of salespeople question Does it work because they’re afraid of losing the business and that’s where we have to teach them, hey, you got nothing to lose. You can’t lose something you don’t have. Do it. And so that’s the thing that I think a lot of people, they don’t believe it first, but then once they do it, they say, wow, that does work a lot better. [19:18]
Nancy Calabrese: I agree. Yep, I am totally in agreement with you. And I can’t believe we’re out of time. What is the one takeaway you’d like to leave the audience with?
Brian Jackson: You know, one takeaway is that you know, as a sale, if you’re a salesperson, you do not need to feel so much pressure to be the one to magically convince, persuade, manipulate others. The Sandler way teaches you to let go and just simply sort through prospects as to whether they have the problems you solve and whether they’re committed to fixing them. It takes the pressure off you; it takes the pressure off of them. So, if you want to be more successful in a career of selling, come and check out Sandler and see what we do. It’ll take your career to another level. [20:05]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Love it. How can my audience reach you?
Brian Jackson: Let’s see, LinkedIn is probably the best. That’s Brian Jackson. I’m located in San Diego. You can also go to, my Sandler URL is salesrevenue.sandler.com, I believe.
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. Everyone, if you haven’t taken advantage of what Sandler has to offer you, get in touch with Brian. It’s a life changer. I personally can’t get enough of it. And it’s impacted me both professionally and personally. And Brian, a huge thank you for being on the show, and maybe you’ll come back sometime.
Brian Jackson: I’ve enjoyed getting to know you today, Nancy, and anytime.
Nancy Calabrese: Love it. Make it a sales day that you’ll never forget everyone. Have a great one. [21:04]
by Nancy Calabrese | Dec 5, 2023 | Podcast
About Brenden Kumarasamy: Brenden Kumarasamy is the founder of MasterTalk; he coaches ambitious executives & entrepreneurs to become the top 1% of communicators in their industry. He also has a popular YouTube channel, MasterTalk, to provide free access to communication tools for everyone worldwide. From the ages of 5 to 16, not only was he scared of communication, like most of us, but he had to give presentations in a language He DIDN’T EVEN KNOW! How CRAZY is that? Only in university did he start refining his communication skills through case competitions. This experience helped Brenden start his YouTube & coaching business, MasterTalk. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Brenden.
In this episode, Nancy and Brenden discuss the following:
- Importance of communication in sales.
- Brenden’s unique way of practicing communication entertainingly.
- Overcoming challenges in public speaking.
- Entertaining communication practices: random word exercises, question drill exercises, and video message strategy.
- Dealing with imposter syndrome when posting his first video on YouTube.
- Essential elements of effective communication: smiling, pausing, vocal tone variety, pacing, and putting it all together.
- Body language mistakes.
Key Takeaways:
- Communication is like juggling 18 balls at the same time.
- If you can make sense out of nonsense, you can make sense out of anything.
- Smile when you’re listening; don’t have a poker face.
- The point is to practice one medium of communication at a time.
“Yeah, for sure, Nancy. And the reason is that when you switch communication mediums, you don’t default back to zero but start pretty low. I’ll give you an example. Giving presentations is a completely different skill set than presenting on social media. When you’re presenting in front of an audience, there are 50 people in front of you. You can engage with them, you can hug them, you can give them a high five. When I first opened the camera and started presenting, there was nobody in front of me. So, I’m talking to a piece of metal. So, it was hard for me to bring the same energy and enthusiasm. And it was awkward the first time I started presenting on camera. That’s why I was nervous about it and got better over time. Like podcast casting, the first time I was on the show, I wondered why somebody would want to interview me. I was like a 22, 23-year-old kid who barely had a business. So yeah, I had a lot of imposter syndrome..” – BRENDEN.
“Most people are bad at smiling when speaking, especially when listening. I’ll give you an example. Let’s say you’re on a sales call, and we see this all the time with terrible sales reps; when they’re listening to the prospect’s answers to their questions, they’re nodding their head but have a poker face on. So they go, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So, what you’re telling indirectly is you’re telling the prospect, hey, I don’t care about your answer; I want to sell you on my product. Whereas if you do the same thing but you’re smiling, and you’re saying, mm, a lot less, the prospect feels seen, heard, and understood. So that’s one. ” – BRENDEN.
“So, pacing just means a lot of speech coaches will always say speak slower. That’s not always the right answer. And the reason is that if I’m slow, you get bored too. So, the key is to have the best speaker’s pace. So, if I’m talking and then I take a moment for you to pause and say, hey, what I’m about to say is key, notice that because I’m constantly changing my pace as I’m speaking, it’s just very subliminal. Most people aren’t noticing this because I’m not pointing it out until right now. Then you’re noticing that I’m paying attention to what Brenden says.” – BRENDEN.
Connect with Brenden Kumarasamy:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Brenden Kumarasamy, the founder of MasterTalk, a YouTube series dedicated to the art of public speaking. Brenden believes anyone can become a confident public speaker and storyteller. Brenden speaks about many topics relating to communication, such as presentation skills, storytelling, and speech breakdowns, explaining what separates the best speakers in the world from everyone else. His workshops focus on interactive activities between participants to practice communication tangibly and entertainingly and his private coaching program is personalized to each individual that he coaches. It is a pleasure to have you on the show, Brenden. Welcome.
Brenden Kumarasamy: Nancy the pleasure is mine. Thanks for having me on the show. [1:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, so, you know, selling is all about communication, and having the right skills, you know, are important. And why is mastering these skills so important, especially in sales?
Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. You know, for me, in the context of sales, the reason why communication is so vital is that at the end of the day, every sales transaction, whether it’s on the B2B side, business to business, or B2C side, directly to the consumer, it’s always involving people. And if you don’t know how to talk to people, you don’t know how to have conversations with them, you don’t know how to build rapport with them by asking the right questions, at the end of the day, you will not get the sales results that you want. That’s one side. The other side of the equation is the communication. Even if you’re seeing the right things, Nancy, if somebody’s asking you questions about your core product and you’re going, uh, you know, I’m not really, and your eyes are all over the place and you’re not looking at the person directly, doesn’t matter how smart you are, you’ll lose credibility on the spot. [2:23]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, wow. But how do you practice communication entertainingly?
Brenden Kumarasamy: Ah, I love the last word that you used, Nancy, right? Which is entertainingly. That’s what I found one of the big challenges with MySpace when I entered it a few years ago. This is a lot of communication training being frankly super boring, right? It’s always focused on, you know, the fear and how we’re all going to die if we don’t master speaking and all that stuff, which is not the energy I like to share. So, to make things fun, the way I think about it is to communicate, and simple, communication is like juggling 18 balls at the same time. So, one of those balls is body language, one of them is storytelling, one of them is facial expressions, et cetera. So, for me, the question has always been, what are the three easiest balls to juggle? Because if we can do that, we can master the art of communication. Let me give you the first one, I’ll throw it back to you. The random word exercises. Pick any word, like phone, like Jaguar, like a headset, like a light bulb, and create 60-second presentations out of thin air. And if you do that, you’ll get a lot more comfortable with uncertainty. [3:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, cool. Are you asking me to pick a word?
Brenden Kumarasamy: I mean, I’m happy to do it, but that’s the first exercise.
Nancy Calabrese: No, I’ll skip. You go the second exercise.
Brenden Kumarasamy: Sounds good, Nancy. So just the benefits of the random word access for people in sales is this serves two main purposes and we can go to exercise two. The first purpose is if you can make sense out of nonsense, you can make sense out of anything. So, if you can talk about hemp seeds and avocado toast and light bulbs, it has absolutely nothing to do with your industry. When you go back to your subject matter expertise often the best sales reps are selling the same product day in, day out. You just get so good at it that it’s easy for you to talk about it. The second purpose is you get good at small talk. What is small talk at the end of the day? It’s two people having a random conversation with questions that each person did not prepare for. So, if you can talk about random topics when you go back to small talk, you can make sense of the nonsense that’s happening. So that’s the question, that’s exercise one. Exercise two, I’m sure was talked about on this podcast in the previous, I just frame it a little differently. It’s called the question drill. So, we get asked questions all the time in our life, Nancy. At school, at work, on sales calls, but most of us suck at answering these questions. A few years ago, I remember when I first started guesting on podcasts, some guy asked me: “Hey, Brendan, where does the fear of communication come from?” I was like: “I don’t know, man. Brazil? Los Angeles? You tell me”. So how did I fix this, Nancy? Every single day for five minutes, I answered one question that I thought somebody would ask about my products, my services, or my expertise. So, day one was, what tips do you have for introverts? Day two is, what tips can we work on every day? Day three is, what’s your vision for a master talk? But if you do that once a day for five minutes for a year, Nancy, you’ll have answered 300 and 65 questions about your expertise, and you’ll be bulletproof. [5:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Do you still do it?
Brenden Kumarasamy: I’m doing it right now actually. Right? So, this is what the question drill is. It’s just, it’s a lot easier for me to practice because you’re asking me questions that I didn’t look at and I’m answering them. So, I’m practicing the question drill. But for somebody who can’t get on podcasts, the advice is more listen to your top five customers, list out all the questions that they ask you about the product, and use them as resources to help you sell future versions of themselves. [6:07]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. Good. Right. Now we have the third or is that the third?
Brenden Kumarasamy: Yep. Yeah, you got it, Nancy. So, let’s go to number three. So, number three is so simple, nobody does it. And I’m sure this was mentioned on previous podcasts, but I’ll give a little different spin to it, which is the video message, right? So, send video messages to either prospect, but more importantly, which I think is a big mistake. Most sales reps make is send video messages to your existing customers. You know, it’s a lot easier to get word of mouth than to sell a customer cold on who you are, your reputation, your brand, and the product that you’re selling. I use something unique that I think only one other person besides me does, so I’m happy to share it, which is called the birthday video message. So, what I do is my Google calendar tells me whose birthday it is today, whether it’s a business partner, a client, a close relationship of mine, or a JV partner, and on their birthday, I’ll put a stupid $15 head that I bought on Amazon that it’s like a birthday head. And then I just open my camera and I go; guess whose birthday it is today? It’s yours. I hope you have a wonderful day. And I say one thing I appreciate about them, but I do this like 200 times a year, 150 times a year. And that’s brought me more business than anything that I’ve done in my life. [7:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Ha ha ha. Wow. How do you collect everybody’s birthdays? Do you just ask them?
Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, you got it. I just asked them. But I want to make sure I’m clear with the strategy. I don’t do this with prospects. I do this with people who have already bought into me. So, I’ll give you an example. Let’s say we’re a part of JVMM, right? We’re a part of a mastermind group together. So, like I probably had 30, 40 coffees with people in that group. I was in it for like a year, a year and change and then I picked the top five people, the top three people that I was like, oh my God, like this person’s amazing. We talk all the time. We build a close relationship. So those people, I’ll ask them what their birthdays are, and then I’ll do that with existing clients. I’ll do that with different people. So that way I’m only sending video messages to people I already have a relationship with. So, it’s easy to collect the birthday. [8:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Got it. Yeah, I think that’s a great idea. So, you wrote on your website that despite all the presentations you’ve given over your life, you were scared to post your first YouTube video. How could that be?
Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, for sure, Nancy. And the reason is that when you switch mediums of communication, you don’t default back to zero, but you start pretty low. I’ll give you an example. Giving presentations is a completely different skill set than presenting on social media. And I’ll tell you why. Because when you’re presenting in an audience, there are 50 people in front of you. You can engage with them, you can hug them, you can give them a high five.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Yeah.
Brenden Kumarasamy: Whereas when I first opened the camera and I started presenting, there was nobody in front of me. So, I’m talking to a piece of metal. So, it was hard for me to bring the same level of energy and enthusiasm. And it was awkward the first time I started presenting on camera. That’s why I was nervous about it and I got better over time. Like podcast casting, the first time I was on the show, I was like, why would somebody want to interview me? I was like a 20 at the time anyways I was like a 22, 23-year-old kid who barely had a business. So yeah, I had a lot of imposter syndrome. [9:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, I mean, that happens to all of us. Don’t go back and listen to my first or second podcast. You don’t want to hear it. But now that I’m over 100, I mean, it just comes more naturally. So, the lesson learned is practice, right?
Brenden Kumarasamy: Absolutely. And the only add-on to that point is to practice one medium of communication at a time. So, for example, the reason why you’re a lot better at interviewing than you were in the past, Nancy, is because you practice the same medium a hundred times, which in your case was hosting a hundred podcast episodes. So, for somebody listening, it doesn’t even have to be a podcast. It could be today I’m going to commit to doing a hundred random word exercises five times a day for the next three weeks, or it’s a hundred question drills or it’s one video message every single day or every few days. So, if you just commit to one specific tip at high volume, that’s where you start to see the results. [10:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Cool. You have a video, Five Public Speaking Tips. Tell us what those five are.
Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. So, I’ve changed them over the years. So, I’ll give you what is now called the five levels of speech. So, the five levels of speech, which go back to your point about the five tips are what I refer to as balls four to nine. So, going back to that 18-ball analogy, right? So, the first three balls are, excuse me, the random word exercise, and the questions on the video message. But most people I’d say I still haven’t met anybody yet. Let’s see who has done those three exercises consistently, even for 30 days. So, my ask is unless they’re clients that I’m chirping at them like a personal trainer would. But if you don’t have that, I’ve found most people don’t do it, there are always exceptions. So, what I’ll encourage people to do, the reason I tell you that is my big ask for everyone listening to this podcast is to book 15 minutes in your calendar every single day just to do these exercises. If you just do this and you don’t listen to anything else I say today, you’ll get 80% of the value from this show. But in terms of your follow-up question around the next five things, assuming you do the first three consistently enough, the five balls are smiling, pausing, vocal tone variety, pacing, and putting it all together. So, let’s go through this. One is smiling. Most people are bad at smiling when they’re speaking especially when listening. I’ll give you an example. Let’s say you’re on a sales call and we see this all the time with really bad sales reps, is when they’re listening to the prospect’s answers to their questions, they’re nodding their head, but they have a poker face on. So they go, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So, what you’re telling indirectly is you’re telling the prospect, hey, I don’t care about your answer, I just want to sell you on my product. Whereas if you do the same thing but you’re smiling and you’re saying, mm, a lot less, the prospect feels seen, heard, and understood. So that’s one. [12:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, that’s interesting. I just want to jump in because I have a tendency when I listen, I get very serious, and I must make a deliberate effort to smile because my natural listening mode is serious. So, it’s very interesting. You brought that up.
Brenden Kumarasamy: Please. Oh, absolutely, Nancy. And the reason, and I’m glad that resonated with you because most people struggle with that. Because let’s say we’re a sales rep, we have 10 sales calls in a row. So, we’re super, super serious on the call when we’re forgetting that we’re selling to a human being. So, it’s important for us to kind of shift out of that mode and focus on building a personal relationship rather than closing a deal. Because if you build a relationship, it doesn’t matter if you close the deal, because you’ll get introduced to someone who will close. So that’s the first piece. The second one’s pausing, right? So, pausing just means knowing how to take a beat. If you keep rambling, rambling about your products and services on sales calls, eventually people tune out. But if I’m on a call and I say, hey, there are three important things you have to keep in mind with this service, the first one is, that you’re paying attention to what I’m saying because I’m pausing effectively. Number three is your tones. So, the trick here, especially when selling is you always want to speak at a, not, but most of the time you always want to speak at a tone that’s slightly lower than the prospects. So, if the person’s loud, you could also match that just to show that you’re in the same realm as them. But if someone’s really, quiet when they’re speaking, especially a lot of the people I get on calls with, because I’m a communication guy, so most of my clients are introverts. If I’m talking like this on a sales call, they’re going to run away from that call. [14:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, right. Well, it’s a matching and mirroring, right? It’s about matching the tone of the other prospect.
Brenden Kumarasamy: Absolutely, Nancy. And then in the context of presentations, it’s a little different. It’s more about the best speakers in the world who know how to vary their tones. So, notice how when I’m speaking, I’m always changing the volume of when I share ideas on a podcast. So, it keeps my voice engaging and enticing enough to listen to. So that’s the third piece. Absolutely. I’m glad you’re enjoying it. The fourth one is pacing.
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, very interesting. What else?
Brenden Kumarasamy: So, pacing just means a lot of speech coaches will always say speak slower. That’s not always the right answer. And the reason is because if I’m slow all the time, you get bored too. So, the key is, is the best speaker’s very pace. So, if I’m talking and then I take a moment for you to pause and say, hey, what I’m about to say is key notice that because I’m changing my pace all the time as I’m speaking, it’s just very subliminal. Most people aren’t noticing this because I’m not pointing it out until right now. Then you’re noticing that, oh wow, I’m paying attention to what Brenden says. And then finally, number five is just putting it all together. That just means, can you do all of these different little techniques simultaneously? And the only way to do this at the same time is to practice your weaknesses. [15:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, I want to go back to something that you said, and you recommend that you speak in a lower tone than the prospect, or you lower your tonality. Did I get that right?
Brenden Kumarasamy: That’s correct, but I always want to point out advice like this is always contextual to the prospect, but I would say in general, especially when you’re speaking to somebody who’s quieter and relatively introverted, you want to speak at a ton lower than theirs, just by a slight margin. [16:18]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, cool. Body language mistakes. What are some of them?
Brenden Kumarasamy: for sure, Nancy. So, what I always like to say with body language is to your point, people should focus more on what not to do versus what to do because most people don’t make that big of a mistake when it comes to body language. I would say the ones, there’s a couple, but I would say the most common ones is one we already talked about, which is when we’re listening to someone we don’t smile. That’s the biggest body language mistake in my book. The second one is probably not moving your arms around a little bit so you can go to either extreme which is wrong, which is either the hand freeze where you stick your hands to your body the entire time or you put them in your pockets which I don’t like at all, or you do the other side which is the hand ninja where you’re always moving your hands. So, the key is just to find a balance, do it every few moments, and sprinkle it like one would a seasoning on a steak, it’s the same thing here, it’s just a little bit that you want to add. Those are probably the main two. If I had to give a third one, which most people don’t make as a mistake, honestly, it would probably be pointing. So, with your palms, Alan Peace talks a lot about this. So, what you do is a lot of people point with their fingers and it’s hard to do on audio, but you get what I mean. Like I’m pointing at you directly versus it’s very aggressive if you’re pointing at people. So instead, you want to either use your open palms or move your finger half-point so that you’re pointing only half of your finger towards them. [17:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Interesting. Another tip that resonated with me because when I’m in meetings, I usually keep my hands on my lap. Now that I’m aware, you guys can’t see us, but I’m using my hands right now in speaking with you. Great points.
Brenden Kumarasamy: Ha!
Nancy Calabrese: Let’s wrap it up. Three daily public speaking exercises. What would they be?
Brenden Kumarasamy: Absolutely, Nancy. So the three are, just to recap, number one, the random word exercise. Invest five minutes a day to do the exercise five times a day. Pick five words, avocado, toast, chaya seeds, headphones, and just create presentations out of thin air. The easiest way to do this, if you can’t afford a coach, is to do this with your children, do this in the shower, do this when you’re walking your dog in the evening. Those are the easiest ways I found to hold people accountable. Exercise number two, the question drill. Very simple. All you have to do is on all of your sales calls this week, record them and either write down all the questions you got asked or get a VA to listen through the calls or use an OctaOtter.ai thing and just transcribe it. Get all the questions and every single day for five minutes just answer one of those questions. And if you just do that, I guarantee your sales results will improve dramatically. Because you’ll just be so good at answering questions that people will perceive you as a subject matter expert, not a sales rep. So that’s number two. And number three is the video message. Just pick five to ten people that you love in your life. Add their birthdays on your calendar and when it’s their birthday, send them a video message. But I would encourage you not to wait either like pick two, or three people now and just send them video messages just to show them how much you care about them, and when it’s their birthday, send them something else. [19:54]
Nancy Calabrese: Love it. I love it. How can my people find you?
Brenden Kumarasamy: Absolutely, Nancy. Such a pleasure to be on the show. Thanks for having me. So, two ways to keep in touch. The first one is the YouTube channel. Just type master talk in one word and you’ll have access to hundreds of free videos on how to speak and communicate ideas for free. And the second way to keep in touch is to attend my free training on communication. I do a free live Zoom call every two weeks for the community. Everyone’s invited. You could be an eight-year-old kid. You could be an executive of a billion-dollar company. Everyone’s invited. So, if you want to come to that go to rockstarcommunicator.com.
Nancy Calabrese: Rock star, everybody hears that. A huge thank you for being on the show. I mean, I gained a couple of good nuggets and I’m sure everyone out there has done the same. I encourage you to take advantage of Brendan’s offer and watch him on YouTube. By the way, you have a great voice too, Brenden. I’m into voices. So, you know how to use it. And for all of you folks out there, make it a great sales day. [21:00]
by Nancy Calabrese | Dec 5, 2023 | Podcast
About Mark Garrett Hayes: SalesCoachr’s Founder, Mark Garrett Hayes, is the author of the value-packed and highly-praised book ‘Sales Coaching Essentials.’ Endorsed by best-selling authors like Mike Weinberg, Matt Dixon, Jeb Blount, and top sales leaders worldwide, this book will help you crack the code and show you how to enable your frontline sales managers to perform at their best as coaches. You’ll discover why all sales leaders must become better coaches and learn practical ways to make this happen – so you can get the best from your most important strategic asset – your people. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Mark.
In this episode, Nancy and Mark discuss the following:
- The importance of coaching in the modern world.
- The difference between coaching and bossing people around.
- Why trust is the fundamental skill required to coach people.
- Mark’s story of transition from business development representative to a coach.
- How long does it take a person to make that transition?
- Different coaching styles.
- How often should people get coached?
- Proactive and reactive coaching.
Key Takeaways:
- Coaching will help you think more about how to involve your team in thinking for themselves and coming up with solutions.
- Coaching is like connecting with someone’s operating system.
- We look at coaching through the prism of the kinds of meetings or reviews that sales leaders would run.
- Also, we apply coaching as a style in how you recruit, identify, recruit on board, and keep great salespeople.
- If you are running a business, you must ask yourself, where will something like coaching pay dividends?
“Well, my area is sales coaching, but coaching is a universal skill because it leverages people’s innate abilities. When we direct people, we boss people, we over-manage people, and we tend to impose our solutions upon them. In doing so, we overlook their contribution, responsibility, and accountability and shortcut their creativity. So, when I’m directing, bossing, and telling people what to do, I’m not involving them. Secondly, I’m creating huge amounts of work for myself. So, if I coach people, I get to enlist them and get them to co-create solutions, which often they will understand better than I will because they’re the ones experiencing them through their eyes.” – MARK.
“So, coaching also involves curiosity. To coach people, you must be curious about what they think and are experiencing, so you have to ask questions. And in doing so, that curiosity is helping people to create perhaps an understanding of something they didn’t see before that. When you think of the great, I think the great movie parents, if you will, they’re less autocratic and more democratic, which is not to say that we just throw all the strictures out the window and say, yeah, let’s go crazy here and have no form of leadership, but rather it’s a way to give people a feeling that, okay, you’re my leader, but you trust me to think. And as a child, what is it like to be given that feeling that my parents trust me? Okay, they say, this is how we’d like you to behave. We don’t want you to do these things, but we trust you to think, and we will involve you in decision-making what you think your boundaries are. And that’s a whole different conversation.” – MARK.
“I’ve coached in different parts of the world, understanding what coaching is and how coaching fits into sales leadership. The challenges that people face when using coaching styles and what that is. We used elements of psychology to understand what coaching means in terms of how you change gears in your mind and various psychology models, not too much psychology, but enough to be useful. And to help people tactfully and tactically apply coaching in everyday sales leadership positions. And what people said to me afterward was, this is practical. And I said that’s the nicest thing you can say because I don’t want people to say, oh, we love the handouts. Oh, we love the PowerPoint presentations. But people felt this connected with me. And I can now turn conversations and relationships with my salespeople around. I’m a better leader, and they’re being led better.” – MARK.
Connect with Mark Garrett Hayes:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with a human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Mark Garrett Hayes, founder of SalesCoacher, a boutique consultancy for highly effective sales coaches. Working both in-house and remotely with sales teams internationally, Mark has developed powerful tools to help sales leaders get the best from their teams. He is the author of the value-packed and highly praised book, Sales Coaching Essentials, the Essential Guide for Sales Managers which helps to discover how to turn everyday conversations and situations into coaching opportunities and transform teams’ performances. Mark is also the host of the Sales Coach Podcast and interviews sales leaders and thought leaders at SaaS and tech companies worldwide. Welcome to the show, Mark.
Mark Garrett Hayes: Thanks, Nancy. Thank you for having me. [1:30]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, very much. So why is coaching so important?
Mark Garrett Hayes: Well, coaching, my area is sales coaching, but coaching is a universal skill because it leverages people’s innate abilities. When we direct people, we boss people, we over-manage people, and we tend to impose our solutions upon them. And in doing so we overlook their contribution, responsibility, and accountability, we also shortcut their creativity. So, when I’m going around directing and bossing and telling people what to do, one, I’m not involving them. And secondly, I’m creating huge amounts of work for me to do. So, if I coach people, I get to enlist them and get them to co-create solutions, which often they will understand better than I will because they’re the ones experiencing them through their eyes. [2:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, but like, let’s just dive deeper. What’s the difference between coaching somebody and as you said, bossing them around? Give us an example.
Mark Garrett Hayes: Well, several perspectives. First, from the, let’s say the recipient’s perspective, if I’m on the receiving end of direction or micromanagement, then I simply disengage. I feel that it’s your responsibility to tell me what to do. And I become dependent upon you to guide me, inform me, train me, and keep me accountable. But when I’m coached, I more likely feel a sense of control. I feel a sense of responsibility and accountability, and I’m more likely to take ownership of what my challenge is and how I’m going to solve that for my reasons. [3:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. I read on your website, that if you’re like many sales leaders, chances are your front-line sales managers are probably functioning at an acceptable level. And so how can these leaders or managers go beyond acceptable?
Mark Garrett Hayes: They must become coaches. It is that simple. There are, there are many challenges, particularly when people are told, hey, guess what, you’re, you’re now a manager. We have taken you from, um, let’s say a position and we’ve elevated you. And now we expect more from you, but we haven’t enabled you to help yourself be a leader. So what coaching is going to do is going to help you to think more about how to involve your team in thinking for themselves and coming up with solutions. If I’m the boss all the time, I tend to negate your contribution. And I was that person, by the way. I was one of those people who thought, hey, I’ve got the badge, now I’m the sheriff. And so, my view was, well, if it’s my responsibility, then it’s going to be my decision. And that kind of theory X approach works well in some kinds of institutions, but not these days, not in, in meritocratic, highly agile, fast-moving organizations where we want a fluidity and responsibility in our people to be able to say: “Hey, you know what, that that’s different”. That wasn’t that way yesterday. What did I do, what did I do here? What’s my skill set, rather than saying: “Hey, Bob, you’re my manager. What do I do now?” [5:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Mark Garrett Hayes: And so, we almost create in someone’s mind that they have the power, the skill set, and the mindset to adapt and to understand challenges for their reasons. I’ll give you an example. Let’s say, for example, I’m working with salespeople. Now I’ll go into some places, and you can tell that the manager is the law and the way they run things is how things are done. If you take out that person, if they’re away or they’re ill then that person has created dependent dependency, and that team is at sea, they’re flummoxed, unable to perhaps function, and perhaps the routines that they’re used to, uh, also don’t work because they all involve and revolve around one person or one leadership style. But when we create coaching or use coaching as a means of creating self-leadership, people are more likely to say, you know what, I’ve got the broad strokes here. I know what I’m supposed to be doing, what results look like, what good looks like. And I’m entrusted to come up with my solutions myself. I will check in with my manager to make sure I’m on the right path. I will ask for feedback because as a coachee, I’m comfortable being given feedback and I’m asking for feedback. And that’s what coaches do. They create that sense of, um, cooperation, collaboration, and co-creation. And that’s a whole different thing when you compare that to many top-down, do it the way I do it, the way I say it leadership. [6:33]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I mean, even hearing you say that kind of gives me a tight feeling in my stomach. Nobody likes to be bossed around. And you don’t get the best out of anyone if you boss them around even your kids, right? Yeah.
Mark Garrett Hayes: Hmm, that’s true. That’s it. That’s a very good point because coaching is more than I think I said at the outset, it’s more than a skill set, which is applied to work. It’s something that, in many respects, can revolutionize your approach to relationships. And I know what life was like before I did that, because, again, perhaps it’s something one has inherited from a parent, this feeling of, well, you know, I’m the parent, and I now get to throw my weight around as opposed to saying, hang on a sec I’m dealing with people who surely can see things differently to me. What are those things? So, coaching also involves curiosity. To coach people, you must be curious about what they think and what they’re experiencing, and so therefore you have to ask questions. And in doing so, that curiosity is helping people to create perhaps an understanding of something they didn’t see before that. When you think of the great, I think the great movie parents if you will, they’re less autocratic and more democratic, which is not to say that we just throw all the strictures out the window and say, yeah, let’s go crazy here and have no form of leadership, but rather it’s a way to give people a feeling that, okay, you’re my leader, but you trust me to think. And as a child, what is that like to be given that feeling that my parents trust me, okay, they say, this is how we’d like you to behave. These are the things we don’t want you to do, but we trust you to think, and we’re going to involve you in decision-making what you think your boundaries are. And that’s a whole different conversation. And I kind of wish I had more of that parenting, but thankfully my parents aren’t listening. [8:30]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Maybe they will be careful what you say. So, you know, I love your story about how you got initially involved in sales. You mentioned to me that you struggled as a first-time BDR. Tell the audience about your story.
Mark Garrett Hayes: Yeah. So a BDR for people listening means business development representative. And, and that is, uh, I worked for Disney, by the way, years ago as a student. And I worked as a busboy. And in some respects that was a similar role because you are serving someone else and helping them to do their job. So, I was working and, as a BDR, which means an assistant to a more senior salesperson. And so, I had to prospect, lift the phone. I felt rejected, rejected sometimes people wouldn’t answer the phone or respond to my emails, et cetera. And when I found someone to talk to who was qualified and I tried to qualify them by asking them qualification questions, then I could say this is a lead and I’ll pass this to my salesperson. And that person then would progress that, that lead. So, I was good at that. I like the routine and I would have no problem making 125 calls a day more or less which these days is not very intelligent I have to say because we’ve since then now had all kinds of software which we can use to almost Pre-qualify or to more rigorously qualify people before we end up speaking to them But back then it was spreadsheet phone go but what I realized was that when it came to being entrusted with a sales team, I was, I was more like a boss than a coach because I had no clue what coaching looked like and why would I use coaching when everyone else who’s managed me tells me what to do and so it’s my turn to pass this on, but thankfully I got help from a guy called Matt who coached me and eventually I realized the power of coaching. So, I wouldn’t say I was a very good sales manager, but I can say that coaching saved me and thankfully through that experience, I’ve helped other people not to make mistakes that I made. And that’s what’s helped me in my journey. Fast forward a couple of years, and I’ve written a book on the subject and work with organizations helping sales managers, particularly new managers to become coaches rather than bosses to their teams. [11:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Right. How long does it take a person to make that transition?
Mark Garrett Hayes: That is a great question. I’ll tell you why I like that question. It’s because sometimes it’s quite emotional. That’s a thing. It’s not procedural. It’s not technical. Its emotional coaching gets right to the heart of people. Why, why do I think this way? Why do I say these things? Why do I do this thing? These times of the day and so on. It’s like connecting with the operating system of someone. And I’ve seen people literally in an afternoon, um, almost go from, oh my God, that’s the effect I’m having here. That’s the thing I’m sending out into the world. This is why I am where I am. This is why I have the relationships I have. And so, the answer is it can be pretty, pretty damn quick. When you see people in a room, as I had this July past, a large project recently, and, um, I saw people almost have light bulb moments. And they began to open up without prompting to their peers and talk about the kinds of challenges they were having as a leader to people. Didn’t have to mention names. People knew who they talked about and who they were referring to. And I could see that transition in people’s minds visibly, and emotionally. And I saw other people connect with that person and go, that’s me too. That’s what I’m getting. I hate to say it but in a room of peers, people were able to almost unload themselves and say, thank goodness there is a solution here. I am fed up with being the boss, the sun, and the solar system around which everything revolves. I want my team to do more of the heavy lifting think for themselves and be accountable and resourceful. And this is what I need. [12:59]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. You know, I think being a boss or a bossy boss puts so much pressure on that individual by enabling your team to coach and make mistakes and learn from them. I think it’s a much smoother way to operate in business. And in my personal life, yeah, I agree with you.
Mark Garrett Hayes: It is, it is, yeah. Yes, exactly.
Nancy Calabrese: Let me ask you this. I want to know, is there something you would like to spotlight and share with the audience?
Mark Garrett Hayes: Yeah, there is one program we’ve wrapped up recently. People might know The Economist as a magazine or newspaper. I have a copy right beside me here. So, we’ve just completed a program with all their sales managers in APAC, Asia Pacific, the EU, and UK, and North America. And we helped them on this program over three months to transition, if you will, into sales coaches. And we brought them through a program. I’ve coached in different parts of the world, understanding what coaching is, and how coaching fits into sales leadership. The challenges that people face when using coaching styles and what that is. We used elements of psychology to understand, what coaching means in terms of how you change gears in your mind and various psychology models, not too much psychology, but enough to be useful. And to help people tactfully and tactically apply coaching in everyday sales leadership positions. And what people said to me afterward was, this is practical. And I said that’s the nicest thing you can say because I don’t want people to say, oh, we love the handouts. Oh, we love the PowerPoint presentations. But people felt this connected with me. And I am now able to turn conversations and relationships with my salespeople around, I’m a better leader and they’re being led in a better way. [15:07]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, what are some of the different coaching styles?
Mark Garrett Hayes: Well, you’ve different schools of coaching. You have co-active coaching. If you go into it, you could say pure coaching. You have coaching, which is often used in conjunction with executive coaching or life coaching. My area is sales coaching. So, we try and look at, we don’t just try, we do. We look at coaching through the prism of the kinds of meetings or reviews that sales leaders would run, whether it’s in the case of a QBR or quarterly business review performance reviews, one-to-ones, or deal reviews, and we think of how coaching is applied in all those everyday business as usual conversations that we have with salespeople. Also, we apply coaching as a style in terms of how you recruit, identify, recruit on board, and keep great salespeople. So, there are lots of people I think of David Clutterbuck who will write extensively on how coaching is used academically or in a purer coaching sense. What I’m doing and what my team does is about bringing coaching as a leadership style into the world of sales leadership. [16:25]
Nancy Calabrese: And how often should people get coached?
Mark Garrett Hayes: That’s a hard question to answer because it depends on the situation. I think I think everyone needs coaching to some level. It’s not therapy. Coaching is not therapy. It’s not mentoring. It’s not training. It’s a different thing. Coaching in some respects is something that every coach should have officially. Because when you qualify as a coach, let’s say you’re with the EMCC or the ICF or the AC, the large coaching bodies internationally, you are expected to have a supervisor coach. So, I would have one of those and I check in with her monthly. Ordinarily, I had a coach during the summer who called me every day for four minutes. I tried that for a while. So, it’s hard to say what works for you. A lot of people find two weeks is a good cadence. However, as a coach, I think as a sales leader who is a coach to her/his people, you ought to be coaching every single day. In all kinds of situations. We have proactive coaching where you’ll go in and use coaching in an everyday one-to-one or some kind of performance review, but then you’ll have reactive coaching where you might help someone with a deal that’s stuck or stagnating in their sales pipeline. So, it’s really hard to say, you know, off the cuff here, it is situational. [17:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah. I’m a big believer in coaching. I have a business coach. Everyone in my organization has access to her. And she’s made such a big difference in the culture and keeping my people happy. You know, they have a voice that they can speak to somebody confidentially if they have something on their mind. So, I’m a big proponent of that. You know, I can’t believe we’re out of time. This went by so quickly. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Mark Garrett Hayes: It did. I think if you’re listening to this and running a business, then you must ask yourself, where is something like coaching going to pay dividends? And I would also say that many salespeople are overlooked. Sales is a stressful job. People go through tremendous amounts of rejection, phones being put down, being told not to call back, people’s proposals, going up and smoking, et cetera, et cetera. And so, the one place where you can bring coaching to bear that will make an effect on the bottom line of the organization, that that’s the frontline where your salespeople are. And I’m amazed at how often organizations don’t invest in their salespeople. We expect so much of them. Um, we, you know, there is no, I don’t know of any formal degree in coaching or in, in sales from a university. There is marketing, all kinds of, uh, professional qualifications, but not too many that I’m aware of in sales. And so no, hopefully, yes. And so if you’re going to invest in salespeople, great salespeople, and make them into great salespeople and keep those salespeople coaching is something you’ve got to think about seriously. [19:46]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, not too many, but they are getting into universities now. Yeah. How can my people find you?
Mark Garrett Hayes: You can check out the podcast, which is the Sales Coach podcast. I interview sales enablement people from around the world, and top organizations every week. You can find my book online, which is Sales Coaching Essentials. And then you can check me out on the team at Sales Coacher. That’s a coach without an E. So, it’s www.salescoacher.com.
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome, awesome. Thank you so much, Mark. You’re going to have to come back. We’ll have to continue the discussion. I think coaching goes such a long way. Again, we’ve said this in business and personal life. Everyone, please take advantage of Mark’s expertise. Reach out to him. And make sure, to look at yourself. Are you coaching people? Are you being coached properly? And if you have any doubts or questions, I’m sure Mark would be happy to have a conversation with you. So, until we see you again, have a great, great sales day. Thanks for listening. [20:54]
by Nancy Calabrese | Nov 21, 2023 | Podcast
About Emanuel Rose: Emanuel Rose is a Founder and CEO of Strategic eMarketing, a digital marketing agency located in Ashland, OR, where he serves clients with one to 25 million dollars in sales. Emanuel manages prospecting, sales, client service, and a team of six creatives and support staff. He is also responsible for developing strategies and tracking the progress of marketing campaigns. With over 14 years of experience in the agency, he has established himself as a reputable expert in lead generation, branding, advertising, and digital agency operations. Before launching Strategic eMarketing, Emanuel served as a Sales and Marketing Manager for a consumer electronics company. He successfully generated sales with Fortune 1000 companies and oversaw the successful release of LED lighting and wifi radio lines. Emanuel Rose is an accomplished author and marketing expert. He is the author of several books including the Authenticity series. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Emanuel.
In this episode, Nancy and Emanuel discuss the following:
- Emanuel’s understanding of why Gen Z is different and should be treated differently.
- Developing an individual marketing plan for Gen Z.
- The marketing mistakes to avoid with Gen Z.
- What motivated Emanuel to write “Authentic Marketing in the Age of AI”?
- The next big thing that will happen after the AI era.
- Will AI replace sales representatives?
- Emanuel’s preference and recommendations for AI tools.
Key Takeaways:
- Gen Z is truly the first digital natives.
- Gen Z has seen every trick, pop-up, and hack marketing technique since they could understand those things.
- We can sell on emotion in a deeper way than corporations do.
- Video and building a content calendar are more holistic than just product and product announcements.
- We still need human connection, and we need to be able to think together, that’s where the AIs are not able to do that yet.
“I’ve seen a lot of bad marketing over my entire career. But Gen Z won’t stand it. The first thing is you’ve got two and a half seconds, less than a goldfish, which has almost a six-second attention span. So, you’ve got to bring either something very humorous or identifiable to the target persona you’re going after. It has to feel that it’s real and transparent and that it’s something to engage with emotionally as well as intellectually. We have to treat them more so than other cohorts, treat them as individuals, and speak directly to their concerns.” – EMANUEL.
“I’m amazed right now at the synthetic humans being produced by voice and video. And so, I think there will be in the next two years, the number of synthetic influencers will overtake the actual human influencers. So, I think that’s when it is. You know, there are tools. If you’re familiar with air.ai, it’s an AI-generated outbound phone call system that has AI-created voice, and they’re able to respond in such a clean and smooth way that it’s, for the first time, I’m a little scared. ” – EMANUEL.
“I want everybody to take two minutes every Monday at 8 a.m. to investigate their cell phone and record a video about something important in your life or your company’s life. Send that video to your marketing department and get it turned into a month’s worth of content.” – EMANUEL.
Connect with Emanuel Rose:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi everyone, it’s Nancy Calabrese and it’s time again for Conversational Selling, the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today, and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Emanuel Rose, CEO of Strategic E-Marketing. Emmanuel is a widely acclaimed specialist in lead generation, branding, advertising, and overseeing the day-to-day operations of a digital marketing agency. With 25-plus years of experience in the industry, Emanuel has been at the forefront of pioneering cutting-edge leading, lead generation, and marketing strategies for diverse clients from a variety of market niches. He is also the author of several books, including Authenticity Marketing to Generation Z, the Social Media Edge, Authentic Marketing in the Age of AI, and several more. Welcome to the show, Emanuel. Let’s get started.
Emanuel Rose: That sounds great, Nancy. I’m excited to have this conversation with you. [1:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, okay. The first thing that jumps out is, why Gen Z? Why is that of interest to you?
Emanuel Rose: Well, because there’s such a giant cohort of humans, there’s 68 millions of them. And so, they’re a big market and they’re a diverse market. And they’re a unique kind of interesting group of people. So, we need to treat them differently than we’ve treated the X and the Millennials and the boom.
Nancy Calabrese: Why differently? What’s the difference?
Emanuel Rose: Well, they are truly the first digital natives. So, they don’t know a day in their life without the internet or smartphones. And they’ve seen every trick and every pop-up and every hack marketing technique since they could understand those things. [2:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow. And gee, I was from a generation where there were no computers or fax machines. Right?
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, right. Now we’ve seen a lot of changes in our lives, and we’ve had to adapt in a lot of ways. Well, the Z’s, you know, this is the water they grew up in. They’re swimming in it and so we must adapt.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, you know, getting back to developing a marketing plan just for them, what would be different versus other generations?
Emanuel Rose: Well, I like to look at people like Kylie Jenner and Richard Branson and Gary Vaynerchuk and emulate important parts of what they’ve done. Very successful marketing and businesspeople. The biggest thing is the amount of transparency and time that you have with those people on social. And it’s a challenge for every small business owner, every midsize business owner to typically say, yeah, I want to be on video two minutes a week or 10 minutes a week, but that’s the mandate is to take some time to tell a story about your favorite client or employee of the week, you know, or even a great product innovation that is solving something. But you start with this very intimate feeling video and start telling stories. [3:54]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So, you also mentioned marketing mistakes for Gen Z. What are they and how do you avoid them?
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, well there are mistakes yeah, well that would need an extra 18 minutes for that one but the high level is to not treat them as Individual human beings right and it’s fundamental marketing and we see a lot of bad marketing I’ve seen a lot of bad marketing over my entire career But they won’t they won’t stand the first thing is you’ve got two and a half seconds, right, less than a goldfish, which has almost a six-second attention span. So, you’ve got to bring either something very humorous or something very identifiable to the target persona that you’re going after. It has to feel that it’s real and transparent and that it’s something to engage with emotionally as well as intellectually. [5:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Maybe I misheard you, but did you say that you don’t want to market to them individually?
Emanuel Rose: No, no, I might have misspoken. You want to, the mistake is to not mark it to them as individuals, right? Yeah, we have to treat them more so than other cohorts, treat them as individuals, and speak directly to their concerns.
Nancy Calabrese: Oh, you know, AI has been the hot topic of the year, right? Everybody is using it. Talk to me about your book, and what motivated you to write it. And boy, was that perfect timing, right?
Emanuel Rose: Yeah. Yeah, so the authentic marketing in the age of AI, I was triggered just from getting so much, what I would consider an avalanche of marketing that was unfocused, you know, like first name not being there, but the comma being there and all this very general fire hose content you could tell was being mass produced and just splattered out there by computers and then inadequate bots, right, that are coming up and not solving anything. So, my series on authenticity, triggered me and I want to help people leverage the tool as marketing professionals to get the value from it and to make rational assessments on where there’s leverage in these AI tools. [6:54]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, how do you leverage it? Can be an example.
Emanuel Rose: Sure, so there are tools out there now, obviously, where you’re able to customize to your list, to your CRM. So, as good as you’re able to keep track of data about individual people, you’re able then to have outreach tools that can plug that in as well as geographic information and talk about current events, for instance. So that’s one way. My recommendation to people is to, and I did this workshop yesterday where I’m saying, go to these big compendiums of the tools and after you’ve identified where you have a breakdown, if it’s email marketing or if it’s outbound calling or whatever these things are, some tools exist to support that now. Spend the time to customize them as specifically and rationally as you can to the needs of your target market and start small but start testing now because they’re not going away. [8:10]
Nancy Calabrese: No. What do you think the next big thing is going to be?
Emanuel Rose: Well, I’m amazed right now at the synthetic humans that are being produced both by voice and by video. And so, I think there will be in the next two years, the number of synthetic influencers will overtake the actual human influencers. So, I think that’s when it is.
Nancy Calabrese: That’s scary.
Emanuel Rose: You know, there are tools, if you’re familiar with the air.ai, it’s an AI-generated outbound phone call system that has AI-created voice and they’re able to respond in such a clean and smooth way that it’s, for the first time, I’m a little scared. [9:09]
Nancy Calabrese: No. Okay. Yeah, I’m not liking what I hear. See, I believe that you can’t replace human conversations at the end of the day. I know that another hot topic is, will AI replace sales? And I just don’t believe it because human interaction is, I think, what everyone needs. So, we’re going to boot these synthetic people out of the way to make sure. We have our place for sure. Marketing tactics necessary for 2023. What are some of them?
Emanuel Rose: Well, the first thing is video and building a content calendar that’s more holistic than just product and product announcements. So, I want to see my clients, I want to see community service engagement. I want to see employee profiles family profiles and company culture profiles, right? whatever those are the softball games or the barbecues or happy hour so that we round out all that stuff in video and then you know it used to be the blog was the hub of all content well now videos are the hub and everything else is the spokes off of the video. [10:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. Now why, but it’s interesting that you say to make it more of the culture of the employees of the family. Why is that important?
Emanuel Rose: Well, part of it is that that’s what differentiates small and mid-sized businesses from giant corporations, right? And so, we can sell on emotion in a deeper way than corporations do. And so that’s a value differentiator and it helps to create an emotional connection with this new group of consumers who are 11 to 27. [11:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh? You know, I’ve gotten feedback from several of my colleagues that they feel that LinkedIn is becoming the next Facebook. A lot of posts about personal relationships. What are your thoughts on that?
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, I say I have my feelings about LinkedIn too. I think that it’s gotten ruined since it was acquired by the 800-pound gorilla. They haven’t done a good job of managing profiles. So, you know, the avalanche of DMs from, you know, from spammers is, I think, reprehensible. But I think there’s a fine line, you know, to answer your question, there’s a fine line between oversharing the cat pictures and showing some part of humanity. And everybody’s got that. You’ve got to decide what’s their comfort level. [12:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. I was on the phone earlier with a colleague who hates LinkedIn for that reason. Hates it. And then also hates that she gets so many invites. I mean, I get a lot of invites too, and I don’t like them. I don’t even read them. Why? Inviting me for what reason? But I will say that we do use LinkedIn for marketing. And it’s our approach is just, you know, we’ve been connected for a while. You haven’t spoken. What about a 20-minute introduction? That’s it. And it takes away that salesy element. And I was shocked when we started doing it as to how many people were receptive to it.
Emanuel Rose: Sure. Yeah, if your profile looks like you have some value and you’ve been around for a while, and I’m not the seventh connection you’ve created, then it’s a genuine business conversation. And yeah, like you said earlier, we still need the human connection, and we need to be able to think together. And I think that’s where the AIs are not able to do that yet. [13:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, right. I know that they have AI, Google has an AI version. I forget what other one outside of chat GPT. Do you have any preference or a recommendation?
Emanuel Rose: Well, it depends on what part of the marketing process you’re looking for help in. For copywriting, there are some great tools. Claude is one of them. And then, chat. Everybody’s usually tried that. There’s Word AI. That’s a great one. That’s kind of a dashboard of opportunities. I send people to future AI labs and some of these kinds of wikis of tools because it is changing every hour. There are like 4,500 SaaS AI tools right now that are listed on some of these. So GPTE is all the latest AI news, prompts, and tools. So those are good ones that will help, you know, help you find what you’re looking for, whether it’s PPC or video editing, right? [14:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Wow, huh? You know, you commented earlier to me that the website is a critical sales marketing and staff recruitment tool. What do we need to know about that?
Emanuel Rose: Well, I’m amazed to have to say this still, but you’ve still got to make it mobile-friendly. It must load quickly on mobile. And for whatever reason, that’s still a gap that a lot of companies have. So, it’s that. And then you’ve got to make it, again, so that it’s got a fuller cultural feel for your company, as well as your solution and product offerings. [15:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, of course. Okay. What about staff recruitment?
Emanuel Rose: 100% and that’s where social media employee advocacy is such a critical tool where you have a marketing campaign consistently that has your staff sharing stories of the company because their networks are going to be the best places to get your new staff from.
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, you’re right. One of the things I’m thinking about doing is having my staff do a video of why they enjoy working at One of a Kind Sales. We can post it on our site as well. Okay, you’re a storyteller. You’ve got to be a storyteller. Is there a story the audience would find interesting?
Emanuel Rose: On which topic?
Nancy Calabrese: Whatever one you want to throw out there.
Emanuel Rose: Oh, well, let’s see. The most recent story that has the most impact was I have an annual fishing trip with some guys, you know, it lasted 18 years. And we’re the kind of guys that we say we will not be denied, right? We control everything we can control. And then that’s what we do. And we love to fly fish. We’re out here on the West Coast, so we get to go steelhead fishing. Well, we ended up in the catbird seat on the river bar. We wanted to camp for the week. The water temperature was good. There were fish in the river and, then we blew the motor on the boat. And so, we ended up in town in a motel room for a couple of days till we could hire somebody to go and help us get our stuff and get off the river bar. [17:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Ha ha! Thanks for watching! Oh boy, sorry about that. You’re going to do it again. You’re going to do it again next year. Yeah.
Emanuel Rose: Well. And so, you know, the kind of the net is that you got to carry your weather with you on the inside and make the best of things even when it’s not what you want.
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, that is for sure. We are wrapping up our conversation. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Emanuel Rose: I want everybody to take two minutes every Monday at 8 a.m. to investigate their cell phone and record a video about something important in your life or your company’s life. Send that video to your marketing department and get it turned into a month’s worth of content. [18:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Love it! What a great idea! Only two minutes?
Emanuel Rose: Two minutes is plenty, you bet.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you don’t want to make them too long, right? Well, you are a lot of fun to talk to, Emanuel. How can my audience find you?
Emanuel Rose: You can track me down at EmanuelRose.com or on LinkedIn at Emanuel Rose, B2B lead generation.
Nancy Calabrese: All right, well, folks, very interesting man. If you’re a Gen Z, he’s the guy for you to go to for sure. If you’re not a Gen Z, I think you could still do good work for them, right? Yeah, so reach out to Emanuel and I hope you’ll come back in the future to continue talking about those six marketing mistakes that you said you could go on for 18 minutes. Absolutely. Yeah.
Emanuel Rose: Hehe
Nancy Calabrese: I’m all about it. And everyone out there, make it an awesome sales day. See you next time. [19:09]
