About Roger Martin: Roger Martin is a Co-Founder and Managing Member of the industry-leading health and wellness franchises, RockBox Fitness and beem Light Sauna. Prior to RockBox Fitness and beem Light Sauna, operated as the Chief Operating Officer of a solid oral dosage pharmaceutical development and manufacturing organization. Previously served as President of a large topical semi-solid and liquid CDMO, as a National Sales Director and Sr. Vice President leading sales and marketing teams of up to 500 sales representatives in the specialty and big pharma market. Extensive expertise in pharmaceutical sales management, leadership, sales force deployment, business development, strategic selling, contract negotiation, business-to-business service contracting, licensing, and pharmaceutical and contracted service marketing. Knowledge of myriad dosage forms and therapeutic classes, as well as regulatory environments and payer systems. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Roger.
In this episode, Nancy and Roger discuss the following:
- The definition of high-impact communication
- The difference between persuasion, influence, and manipulation in sales
- The importance of storytelling in sales, positioning the customer as the hero
- The value of continual learning and personal investment versus traditional financial investments
- Keypoints from Roger’s book, An Insider’s Guide to Business
Key Takeaways:
- The best way for a salesperson to make an impact in their industry, in the world, and on others is to start with genuinely understanding what their prospect needs.
- Buying behavior is this: you’re telling a story, and the customer is the hero.
- People will buy from people they like, but more people will buy from people whom they trust to solve their issue.
“High-impact communication, by my definition, is when two individuals have a complete, thorough, and empathetic understanding of each other’s wants and needs. And what do I mean by that? Whether it’s a personal relationship, a family relationship, a business relationship, or even a vendor-customer relationship, it’s about both sides understanding what each other needs to thrive in that relationship. Too often, especially in today’s digital world, communication becomes overly transactional. I love how you started by saying that every business and everything else starts with a human interaction.” – ROGER
“I appreciate the question because it will allow me to delineate the difference between persuasion, influence, and manipulation. And they are too often conflated. The consumer conflates them; even salespeople conflate the two when really persuasion and influence are about empathetically trying to understand what your pain point, your issue, your area of opportunity is—something that, you know, you’re at point A and you’re trying to get to point C, let’s say. And then I help through persuasion, and I’m going to persuade you to understand that this problem needs to be acted upon. If you think about it for a long time, if you just keep wondering about it, if you stress about it, you’re not going to solve your issue. So I’m going to persuade you that you need to take action. And I’m going to do that through very ethical means and just skillful means, but to help build that bridge—just think of, you know, in your mind, literally building a bridge over a small river from A to C, and my product or solution and support and services will help get you from A to C. Now, manipulation is, “Hey, I want to get you to C because I make a big commission off of it, but you really don’t need C, and your A is just fine for you, or another vendor would get you to C a lot easier and cheaper than me. But I’m going to use, you know, tricks and slick lines and all that, you know, to get you there.” […] People will always exchange money for a solution to a problem that is causing them pain or a solution to a problem that will help them grow to be even more successful. And too many times—and you know this—too many times a salesperson will boast about their company, they’ll boast about their track record, about their service record, about their customer satisfaction record. You know what? Those are great. The customer couldn’t care less. The customer wants to know, “Can you solve my problem?” You know, “Can you solve my problem?” – ROGER
“I would challenge them to continue learning, listen to Nancy’s podcast, you know, buy those $997 courses from genuine, great people that you can trust and who will deliver value. Go to that weekend seminar, invest the two grand to do that because you should be investing in yourself as much as you’re investing in your business and investing in the stock market. I mean, the stock market is going to make 8 to 10% over the long run. You put that same two grand into yourself, you can quintuple that money in a year. You know, to me, it’s a no-brainer about continual learning.” – ROGER
Connect with Roger Martin:
- LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/realrogermartin/
- Thrive More Brands: https://thrivemorebrands.com/
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
- Twitter:https://twitter.com/oneofakindsales
- Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/One-Of-A-Kind-Sales-304978633264832/
- Website:https://oneofakindsales.com
- Phone: 908-879-2911
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ncalabrese/
- Email: leads@oneofakindsales.com
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Roger Martin, who has built a 30 year sales, marketing and C level leadership career. He is the co -founder and CEO of two national franchise brands, Rockbox Fitness and Beam Light Sauna, as well as various other businesses. Roger has led teams as large as 500 people and knows the importance of clear, high impact communication. And throughout his career, he’s extensively studied human behavior, persuasion and influence and train thousands to communicate more effectively and inspirationally. Finally, he is the host of the Thrive More podcast and recently launched his book, An Insider’s Guide to Business, Secrets from an Entrepreneur’s Playbook. Boy, you’re a busy guy, Roger. Welcome to the show.
Roger Martin: Thank you. Yeah. I’m, after that I’m exhausted. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for having me. [1:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, what a promo. Yeah, I’m so excited to have you. So why don’t we start with this? What is high impact communication?
Roger Martin: Yeah. High impact communication. My definition is going to be when two individuals have a complete, thorough and empathetic understanding of each other’s wants and needs. And what do I mean by that? Whether you’re in a relationship, if it’s a personal relationship, a family relationship, a business relationship, which could even mean a vendor customer relationship, it’s about both sides understanding what each other needs to thrive in that relationship. And too many times, especially in today’s digital world, it’s so transactional. I love how you started off and said that every, you know, business, everything, everything starts with a human interaction. And I could not agree with you more. And we’re, you know, as much as the world is trying to digitize everything at the end of the day, we’re social creatures and we want to be heard, understood and seen. And, you know, this podcast being about sales and effective sales, the best way. The best way for a salesperson to make an impact in their industry, in the world and on others is to start with genuinely understanding what their prospect needs. Even if that means Nancy, I can’t help you. You know what? I actually don’t have a product or service that fits perfectly with what you’re looking to do. And you know, that that’s taking the high ground and being a very ethical salesperson, but that high impact communication is all about truly understanding the needs and the why, you know, we always talk about the why behind the why, but to me, think of it, think of it like an iceberg. You know, if you, if a lot of times the salesperson will find out what they think is the why, which is what the prospect is volunteered, which is the iceberg above the water. But until we get, you know, this 10 stories deep into the ocean down near the bottom, that’s the real reason they’re, they’re seeking to alleviate their pain points, whatever, you know, or see growth in the business. So I would just say, you know, that mutual understanding. [3:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, see, I also, when you’re describing this, it’s the ability to ask important questions of the prospect or the customer. And I think we earn trust by asking those questions and repeating back what we believe we heard. Now, you’re big into persuasion and influence. So how do you use those two things to drive more sales?
Roger Martin: Yeah. And I, and I appreciate the question because it will allow me to also, for your listeners, really delineate the difference between persuasion, influence and manipulation. And they are too often conflated. the consumer conflates them, even salespeople conflate the two when really persuasion influence is I’m empathetically trying to understand what your pain point, your issue, your area of opportunity is something that, you know, you’re at point A and you’re trying to get to point C, let’s say. And then I help through persuasion and I’m going to persuade you to understand that this problem needs to be acted upon. If you think about it for a long time, if you just keep wondering about it, if you stress about it, you’re not going to solve your issue. So I’m going to persuade you that you need to take action. And I’m going to do that through very, ethical means and just skillful means, but to help build that bridge, just think of, you know, in your mind, building a literally a bridge. You know, like over a small river from a to C and my product or solution and support and services will help get you from a to C. Now manipulation is, Hey, I want to get you to see, cause I make a big commission off of it, but you really don’t need C and your A’s just fine for you or another vendor would get you to see a lot easier and cheaper than me. But I’m going to use, you know, tricks and slick lines and all that, you know, to, to get you there. That’s manipulation and too often a salesperson is thinking about, my God, how do I close? How do I get them down this path? If they would slow down and listen, as you said, ask important questions, meaningful questions, and then ask, well, what did you mean by that? Tell me more about, I need to understand like what, so what happens if you don’t eliminate 15 % from your budget this year on manufacturing costs? I’m just making this up, you know, whatever, but If what is the impact? What is the impact to your career? What is the impact to your department? How about your company? What does that mean for job? Like getting much, much deeper there so that you can understand so that you can persuade and then influence somebody and influence is a positive term. So you, you use that to, you know, how do you drive sales? It goes back to you solve somebody’s problem. People will always exchange money for a solution to a problem that is causing them pain or solution to a problem that will help them grow to be even more successful. And too many times, and you know this too many times a salesperson will boast about their company. They’ll boast about their track record, about their service record, about their customer satisfaction record. You know what? Those are great. The customer couldn’t care less. The customer wants, can you solve my problem? You know, can you solve my problem? [7:00]
Nancy Calabrese: That’s right. Right.
Roger Martin: And so, persuasion and influence, and I’ve just, I’ve studied this extensively and buying behavior is it’s you’re telling a story, and the customer is the hero. You are simply the guide to get that customer down the path and safely over that bridge at a fair cost that allows you to make a fair profit as you should. It allows them to achieve their goal, but it is truly storytelling using them as the hero. And too many times, you know, I And I learned in the, you know, back in the nineties, you know, feature advantage benefit and, and, you know, that’s the cost. The consumer is so much more educated now, like the, the internet has democratized information. And so, the, the old way of selling may still work at times, but it’s not going to be nearly as effective. And it’s, you’re not going to be able to help as many people using those old tactics of, you know, feature advantage benefit and my company and our reputation. That’s you’re very limited that way. [8:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Do you think that there are still a lot of old school salespeople out there?
Roger Martin: I think there are some still very successful salespeople, men and women who sell on relationship, and you know, they believe that people will buy from people they like. And I can’t disagree with that statement, but I would challenge the statement that yes, people will buy from people they like, but more people will buy from people whom they trust to solve their issue. And you know, you, you want to be liked by your customers. Everybody wants to be liked. But I would rather be trusted and be the person that they lean into. Whether we have, you know, whether we both enjoy baseball or, or, or cooking or whatever, you know, you always try to find these commonalities. And I get that. And there’s a lot of, there is neuroscience behind talking about nostalgic events that tie you together and, and take that person back to a happier place in life. And like, you know, I’ve studied NLP and there’s definitely, there’s definitely science and it works, but Boy, it’s a lot of work too. When you can just focus on the customer and then try to, instead of trying to stay five steps ahead of the customer, just stay right with them and understand them so that you can move them to a better place. Yeah. [9:17]
Nancy Calabrese: So, I’m just curious, you’ve got great business building experience, and you helped grow two national franchises. How has your background in building businesses helped you do that?
Roger Martin: Yep. So, Nancy, the, the real abridged version of this is I spent 25 years in corporate America. I’m very grateful for the time I spent in the pharmaceutical industry, which is where I spent all 25 years. I worked for fortune 50 companies down to, you know, I worked for private equity. Then I worked for like a family office that owned a company and you know, corporate America gets a bad rap and they should in a lot of ways, but in the same token, I was very fortunate that they invested a lot in me in my, in my, you know, leadership and, and, and mentoring skills and, again, finance and operations, all those skills that you need to run a business. I was able to learn that on someone else’s dime, but also give them, you know, a 10 X return on their investment in me. And so I’ve made a lot of people, a lot of money because they’ve invested in me. But in 2016, end of 16, I just had this epiphanal moment, you know, the whole story behind it, but it’s an epiphanal moment where I said to myself, I’m not happy doing this anymore. I was a chief operating officer at that time. And, you know, I’d started in the business as a sales rep and I just, I wasn’t enjoying what I was doing anymore. And it didn’t matter how much money I made. It didn’t matter the title. It just, it wasn’t, it wasn’t scratching the itch. And then, so in two, that early 2017, I, I transitioned out. I had a succession plan and all that made sure I finished impeccably to your listeners, always finished impeccably, whether it a job with a customer relationship, always finished impeccably. But, you know, I worked to do that. And then I, I left a multi multi six figure job and stock options and healthcare and all that stuff on a Friday and woke up on a Monday morning for the first time in my life, unemployed, you know, no salary, no health insurance, all that. And yes, it was scary as could be. It was scary as hell but on, on Tuesday, you know, and I had a plan. I was, it was to start this company called rock box fitness, which is a group fitness concept boxing, kickboxing and functional strength training. Nobody gets punched in the face. It’s, it’s, it’s bags and it’s all, all for a fitness set to music and color changing lighting. It feels almost like you’re in a nightclub or rock concert. And, you know, we, I wanted to grow this as a national franchise with a business partner I had recently met. And I, I honestly, it, it wasn’t, I wouldn’t say it was incredibly challenging to transfer my skills that I had learned building divisions building sales teams, building marketing groups, building, you know, manufacturing companies, because that all directly applied into my entrepreneurial journey. What I wasn’t ready for was the nothing ever goes the way you expect it. And it’s your checkbook. It’s your checking account that is coming out of right when, you know, when you work for big companies, something goes wrong. You’re like, okay, we screwed up. We need to fix this. Let’s, but you still get paid when you’re an entrepreneur, something goes sideways you don’t get, you don’t make any money. So, that, that will mature somebody at a, at a, at an exponential rate. And, you know, I, so I had to of course go through all of that learning and entrepreneur does, and I still do, seven, eight years into this, but I’m fortunate that I was able to learn a lot of those skills and I, and then I continued my learning. So if there’s any, you know, any, any message I can give to your listeners, Nancy, it’s, you know, when you’re done with school and I have my, I went back and got my MBA when I was, 30. That’s great. But my learning has, has really ramped up almost like a hockey stick when it comes to not just on the job, you know, learning as an entrepreneur, but listening to podcasts like yours, reading every book I can, you know, I read 60, 70 books a year and that’s not, that’s not a sound bite for you. I literally read 60 to 70 books a year. I just devour them because I, and I’ll go back and read some of them twice. So some of those 60, 70s, me going back to read a book that I read like three years ago, but want to revisit it. Cause now I, you know, the, the, the teacher appears when the student is ready. Right. And so, some of these books hit me a different way three years later after I’ve read them. And I still go back probably every four years and read how to win friends and influence people because it’s, you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s timeless. And, and, and so, you know, to your listeners, I would, I would challenge that it challenged them to continue learning, listen to Nancy’s podcast, you know, buy those 997 courses from, you know, genuine great people that, that, you know, that you can trust and will deliver value go to that weekend seminar, invest the two grand to do that because you should be investing in yourself as much as you’re investing in your business and investing in the stock market. I mean, stock market, you’re going to make eight to 10 % over the long run. You put that same two grand into yourself. You can quintuple that money in a year. You know, it’s it to me, it’s a no brainer about continual learning and, and Invest in the somebody, it’s not my line, but I love this, you know, invest, invest in the S and me 500, not the S and P 500. [14:27]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. I love it. You know, and I’m a big believer in investing in yourself. Keep yourself in the mix of ongoing training, learn new techniques, be around new people. I mean, I would be bored if I didn’t approach life that way myself. Okay, so let’s talk about your book, An Insider’s Guide to Business, Secrets from an Entrepreneur’s Playbook. What’s it about and what motivated you to write it?
Roger Martin: Thank you for the question. And I just want to start off with saying that all proceeds from this book from the first day it was published until, you know, it ever goes out of print are going 100 % of it. I don’t make a red sun off this book. They’re all being donated to charity called To Write Love on Her Arms, which is a charity that helps support people with mental health struggles, including suicide prevention. Rockbox Fitness is it’s our national charity partner and we really believe that. You know, strong body is wonderful, but you need a strong body and a strong mind. And in today’s world, you know, a lot of people are struggling with their mental health. So it’s, you know, available on Amazon, Kindle or the paperback. And again, whomever buys it, just know they’re supporting a charity and it goes a long way. So this book I wrote because again, I’ve read some, I’ve read, we’ve all read good to great, you know, we’ve all read some of these, you know, CEO excellence and execution and these, you know, these, these standard books. And I’ve read every Jack Welsh book. But what didn’t seem to be on the market was a book from somebody that was running a small to midsize business, you know, from, from 10 to $50 million and has scaled the business and has done it several times. you know, I could certainly buy books and I have, and I love them reading these founders books of, you know, Hey, I started this company and built it to, you know, a billion dollars. Well, that’s great, but most of us are not going to get there, you know, and I, I hope I do, but I don’t know if, you know, I haven’t. And so I can’t write that book who I can write a book for are the people that were me seven or eight years ago and were, you know, in a job that wasn’t fulfilling and now they’re ready to go out on their own or they have a company, but they’re stuck. You know, they’ve got it to a certain level of revenue and they can’t get it above that. And that’s what this book is for. It’s, it’s, it’s written, in, you know, this modular format and very simple. I, I wrote the book pretty quickly, but then I took four months of doing edits and literally did seven full cover to cover edits, meaning I had, I had four or five different people that were helping me. And it’s a real book by the way, no AI, no ghostwriter. This is me pecking out 46 ,000 words on my, on my laptop. But, but I definitely wanted to simplify this down to, you know, could, could a kid in high school read this book and know how to build a business. And then could a 45 or 50 year old executive read this book? and get just as much out of it and know how to start scale staff and build their business. And, and I believe I’ve gotten there because I’ve made it, I, you know, instead of long flowery, you know, flowery language and long, you know, compound sentences, I tried to make it just really straightforward, you know, 10, 12 page chapters that you could really digest and go back and use as a reference. But in addition, I included story format. So I, you know, I don’t just say, Hey, you should do this because I say you should do this because let me tell you about a story. I didn’t do it that way and got my nose punched in, you know, by business and you know, and, or let me tell you a story how, you know, something was wrong and here’s what I did to correct it. And here’s what I’ve learned from experts that have already been there and done that. And so there’s always usually a good story to start the chapter or to finish the chapter that makes it concrete and more of a fun read. You know, if something’s dry and boring, even, you know, I don’t enjoy it. So I wanted to write it in a way that was compelling and people enjoyed what they were reading, but also could glean a lot of information from. [18:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, people love stories. They just do, you know, and I think even in sales, third party stories really get the attention of your prospects. So it sounds like a great book. And, you know, we’re wrapping up a little bit, but I just want to talk about your Thrive More podcast. What kind of topics do you discuss?
Roger Martin: Yeah. So we focus on like yours is, is, is focused on selling. And I love that. I can talk about that all day. I’ve really, opened my podcast up to business health and wealth. And so we’ll have discussions around persuasion influence, but a lot of times around business building business, I’ll have a lot of people that have built a business. but I’ve also had, you know, I’ve had like Chris Voss, who’s a, a master FBI negotiator. And we talked about persuasion influence, which is really selling. I’ve had a hypnotist that’s, that has a show on the sunset on the, on the Las Vegas strip. but, but that was really around mental health because he, he, he had some real struggles with that and he talks very openly about it and great episode for the listeners to hear. So it’s business health and wealth. I’ll have a nutritionist on one day and the next day I’ll have somebody talking about how to, you know, leverage your financing. so I want to be able to help people where they, Want to have help and they may go through the list of topics, you know, i’ve got i don’t know 70 80 shows now They may you know see hey that one really doesn’t apply to me, but this one does and i want you know, we’ll listen to that so It’s a show. I love to do again It’s i do it because I love it just like you I love having these conversations and if I can give back to somebody that is again Five ten fifteen twenty years behind where i’m at just in this journey of life as we call it you know, that’s hopefully that’s that’s my my gift back. [20:21]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. I think that’s great. So how can my people find you?
Roger Martin: Yeah, thank you. So, a couple ways. One, they can follow me on socials on any of the socials, LinkedIn, Instagram and YouTube at Real Roger Martin. That’s just real and R O G E R Martin. so, at real Roger Martin, or they can go to thrive more brands .com. So, rock box fitness, beam light sauna, which is another brand we have, they’re under really this, this platform that we call thrive more brands. And if they go to thrive more brands .com, you know, they’ll, if they, you know, there’s no obligation where they can learn about franchising. They can learn about, if they have a business, they’re thinking about franchising. They can learn more there. the book link is on there. I think the podcast link is on there. Sometimes I do speak like this past week, and I was doing a speaking event. they can, you know, see where I’m going to be there. So, thrive more brands .com or just follow me at real Roger Martin. [21:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Wonderful. Listen, folks, he’s the go -to guy and I’m gonna grab myself a copy of your book. I think, especially since you said you made it very simple and easy to read and not too flowery. That’s right up my alley. Yeah, yeah. So, thanks so much for being on the show. People go and get his book, reach out to Roger and until we see you again.
Roger Martin: Wonderful. There you go. Give me the facts, yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Make it an awesome sales day. And you know what, as Roger said, invest in yourself. So we’ll talk to you sooner than you think. Have a good one. [21:59]
