About Julie Barlow and Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Julie Barlow and Jean-Benoit Nadeau are the award-winning and bestselling authors of The Story of French, The Story of Spanish, and the bestselling Sixty Million Frenchmen Can’t Be Wrong. Julie Barlow is the author of 8 nonfiction books. In 2023, Julie published a comprehensive guide to self-employment with her husband and writing partner, Jean-Benoit Nadeau. GOING SOLO: Everything You Need to Start Your Business and Succeed as Your Own Boss, with Jean-Benoît Nadeau, drawing on the couple’s three decades of experience as freelance writers. Born in Sherbrooke, Quebec, and a political science graduate of McGill University, Jean-Benoît Nadeau once held a job for 29 days and has been self-employed for 35 years. A regular reporter and columnist for L’actualité (Canada’s leading national French magazine), he has also been a past contributor to the Report on Business Magazine. He has signed papers for various American, Canadian, and French publications. His freelancer status has allowed him to live in various venues like Phoenix, Toronto, Paris, and Montreal and undertake radio, film, and book projects, some of which with his spouse and partner Julie Barlow. They currently work as journalists based in Canada. He also published “The Story of French,” “The Story of Spanish,” and “The Bonjour Effect: The Secret Codes of French Conversation Revealed. ” Their books have been translated into French, Dutch, Mandarin, and Japanese. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Julie and Jean-Benoît.
In this episode, Nancy, Julie, and Jean discuss the following:
- Writers’ transition from a creative role to the business aspect
- The key messages in “Going Solo”
- Working more hours vs. thinking differently
- The importance of understanding the client’s expectations and needs
- The value of negotiating on multiple levels simultaneously
- The significance of saying “no” as a critical term in negotiations
- Constructive refusal tips: polite ways to decline offers
Key Takeaways:
- I’m a writer and a creator, but I’m also a business person, and I realized that I was the hierarchical equal of my client.
- You won’t earn more if you work more; you’ll earn more if you think things differently.
- The important thing that you do when you want to go solo is to understand your purpose and to love what you want to do.
- You immediately have intellectual property whenever you write something definite and not a list.
“The book is really for anybody who wants to start a business. But we’re working from experience and maybe addressing more people in the creative field. Mind you, starting a business is creative, period. And I think one of the issues probably applies to all entrepreneurs. You know, you want to do something, be self-employed, and work from your passion. And then you very quickly must understand that it’s a business. And it’s hard for people to switch from being passionate about something to being business-like. And so, the book takes everybody through from the very beginning, writing your business plan through negotiation and operations and management and all the things you need to understand to make your passion make a living for you.” – JULIE
“It depends on whom you sell. Sometimes, the market that you have is very small. In effect, when we’re magazine writers like us, we sell to about five or six publications. A lot of people publish these publications. But the person we must convince, the gatekeeper, is the editor-in-chief. And so, in that case, convincing them is putting together what we call the ingredients of a good idea, what’s in it for them, what’s so special about it. Sometimes, we have clients who are completely unknown to us. Some people want us to write a book on them. And so, in that case, most of the selling is just teaching the person how our business works because they have no clue. And if we do a good job there, we will have a client that will understand better where they will evolve.” – JEAN
“The book is about communication, particularly understanding your client’s expectations and needs. So, for instance, we have people who want writing projects who don’t really understand what involved the time and the work and what is involved in putting together some writing. So, part of our job is finding out how much they understand. And it’s important to do that work sort of upstream from signing a contract with somebody and because it’s all going to figure into how much you charge for it.” – JULIE
“I would say that you will quickly be busy once you have your business going. A very important thing is figuring out your purpose. Julie alluded to that. But you know, if you start a school for social dancing, you’re not going to make all the hundreds of little decisions, whether your purpose is to start a franchise of school dancing or have your clients win the Olympics of social dancing or create a shoe for social dancing. You will not choose your clients in the same way as your venue, and you won’t publicize in the same way. So, the idea of having a purpose, which is what you are doing this for, is very important. It’s the essence of a business plan, which is not a 200-page document but a really, really a document about yourself. And knowing thyself better is the old Socrates motto, really applies to self-employed people.” – JEAN
Connect with Julie Barlow and Jean-Benoît Nadeau:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliebarlow/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jean-benoit-nadeau/
- Website: https://nadeaubarlow.com/
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
- Twitter:https://twitter.com/oneofakindsales
- Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/One-Of-A-Kind-Sales-304978633264832/
- Website:https://oneofakindsales.com
- Phone: 908-879-2911
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ncalabrese/
- Email: leads@oneofakindsales.com
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Julie Barlow and Jean-Benoît Nadeau, bestselling authors and journalists who have been running their own writing business for over three decades. Together and separately, they have published over 10 plus books, including their new book, Going Solo, everything you need to know to start your business and succeed as your own boss. Julie and John Benoit have spoken to audiences across Canada, the US, in Europe, and Japan. Their work has appeared in the New York Times, USA Today, the International Herald Tribune, Frances L Express at the Courier International and more. Welcome to the show. I am so excited to have you both. Let’s get started.
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Yes.
Julie Barlow: Thanks. [1:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Thank you. So, you know, starting a business is exciting, but also scary, right? Wouldn’t you agree? Um, yeah, like what prompted you to write this book?
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Oh yeah. Well, I was a, it started a long time ago, I was a young journalist and I wanted to share my experience of realizing that yes, I’m a writer and a creator, but I’m also a business. And being a business, I changed my hard disk and realized that I was the hierarchical equal of my client. My client was not my boss, you know? [2:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: That’s an important realization.
Julie Barlow: It’s a tricky thing. I mean, the book is really for anybody who wants to start a business. But we’re working from experience and maybe addressing a little more people who are in the creative field. Mind you, starting a business is creative, period. And I think one of the issues is probably applies to all entrepreneurs. You know, you want to be, you want to do something, be self-employed and work from your passion. And then you very quickly must come to an understanding that it’s a business. And it’s hard for people to switch from the mindset of being passionate about something to being business-like about something. And so, the book really takes everybody through from the very beginning, writing your business plan all the way through negotiation and operations and management and all the things you need to understand to make your passion make a living for you. [2:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Well, so what are the messages in going solo? What do you want to get across to the audience?
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Well, one of the main ideas is even if you go into, people often go in the business on their own account because they’re passionate about something whether it’s writing or it’s dog grooming or graphic design but at one point you’re not going to earn more if you work more you’re going to earn more if you think things differently it’s something we in an image we use in the book but the person who earns $300,000 a year doesn’t work 10 times more than the person who earns 30,000.
Julie Barlow: It doesn’t have too anyway.
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Yeah, you sort of develop what we call multipliers. In our business for example we don’t sell, or it’s true for all artists, we don’t sell a text, we sell the rights to that text and it’s not the same thing because if you sell rights to a text then you can sell the same rights to someone else. So that’s a multiplier. [4:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Huh. You know, we’re all in sales, whether people want to believe it or not in every, in every role in our lives, right? We’re all looking to persuade someone to do something that you’d like to get done. And that includes business owners. And what are some of the psychological hurdles to selling that you’ve found?
Julie Barlow: Well, I think one of the big things that we spend, we spend, we devote two total chapters to negotiation. It’s hard for people to learn to think, people who are selling in our context as entrepreneurs, to think like the boss and go from thinking of clients as the boss to clients, to you being the boss. And so, a lot of the book is directed towards helping people figure out how to think like that in practice. And that means we have these chapters on negotiation. For starters, it means learning to understand how you can win your negotiations, not necessarily always by getting the best price. That’s a big theme through the book. [5:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So, you give me an example.
Julie Barlow: So, for instance, there are a lot of things that you can put on the table that will make a sale ultimately productive for everybody. I mean, the idea is that you want to give your client a solution and that means that it might be, there may be other things such as the conditions you’re working in, how quickly they’re going to pay, the location, whether you must move for it to do the work or not, extra work, ownership, with John just mentioned, you know, whether I keep the rights to my creativity or whether I give some kind of exclusivity. All these things enter into what you’re trying to achieve with your client. And that’s a big part of learning how to negotiate and not come out feeling like you’ve lost your negotiation because you didn’t get the highest price. [6:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. How do you recommend creating a sales message to your audience, to your clients?
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: It depends to whom you sell. Sometimes the market that you have is very small. In effect, when we’re magazine writers, like us, for example, we sell to about five or six publications, really. These publications are published to a lot of people. But the person we must convince, the gatekeeper, is the editor-in-chief. And so, in that case, convincing them is putting together what we call the ingredients of a good idea, what’s in it for them, what’s so special about it. Sometimes we have clients that are completely unknown in the business. There are people who want us to write a book on them. And so, in that case, a lot of the selling is just teaching the person how our business works because they have no clue. And if we do a good job there, we will have a client that will understand better where they will evolve. [7:42]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: And at the same time, we run the risk of losing the business because they might say, oh, this is not for me, but maybe it’s a good thing because who wants a client that it was going to be dissatisfied and reluctant in the end. [7:57]
Julie Barlow: One of the other big things in the book is communication, and in particular, understanding your client’s expectations as well as their needs. So, for instance, do they know, as John mentioned, do they understand the business? We have people who want writing projects, who don’t really understand what involved the time and the work and what is involved in putting together some kind of writing. So, part of our job is finding out how much they understand. And yeah, and so, you know, it’s important to do that work sort of upstream from signing a contract with somebody and because it’s all going to figure into how much you charge for it. [8:40]
Nancy Calabrese: So how do you create the buzz though about what you’re doing? You’re going solo. What do you want to do to create that interest and get the word out there?
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Well, it depends on a lot if your market is a well-established market or a completely new market. Well, for example, nowadays being a website designer is a pretty established market. So, you, you have to present things a lot differently from when you, people, what you wanted to be a web designer 20 – 25 years ago, when the thing was completely new. If you are in an established market, your resume, who you are makes a difference, the quality of your ideas. And if you are involved trying to start something that’s quite new, you must do a lot more teaching to people and that means establishing a presence and writing blogs and all that just to establish even the market. [9:49]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Huh, you know, again, there’s so many different components that go into running a business, right? Should you incorporate? What are the expenses you can deduct? Do you need a website? These are things that I guess we all need help with, especially when first launching a business, is your recommendation when you do go solo to pick an industry that is not highly saturated?
Julie Barlow: I think that the important thing that you do when you want to go solo is to understand your purpose and to really love what you want to do. So, I would never recommend that somebody choose a business, choose an industry in function of how many people are working in it. The fact of the matter is it’s a bit like I sometimes think of places where you go shopping and there’ll be a, in a city there’ll be a street with a whole bunch of stores that sell the same thing. [10:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Julie Barlow: And the fact of the matter is that they all work together, and they attract a certain clientele. And in writing, I mean, there’s a lot of writing out there. I would never tell somebody not to start a writing career. There’s a lot of need for writers. The important thing is doing your market research and understanding who and how you can reach the people that you want to reach. And then I guess in our business, a lot of the way that we, you know, to answer, come back to your previous question, a lot of the way we reach those clients is by crafting pitches carefully that are geared towards whatever it is that they want to do in terms of negotiation or other aspects. [11:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Yeah, you know, again, you start your business, you’re going to be in a position to negotiate contracts. What are some tips that you have for those of us that are just starting out? Well, negotiation is one.
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Yeah, well negotiating you really have to be able to understand that you negotiate on six levels at the same time. You negotiate the job, you negotiate conditions, negotiate the price obviously, ownership, you negotiate expenses and terms. You know, a $50,000 or a $5,000 contract, let’s say if you’re starting, $5,000 contract is a big deal. You know if you’re paid three months later, it’s no good, you know? What you want is to be paid a little bit at signature, a quarter or a third, and then a little bit in the middle of the job and on acceptance, you know? That is a lot better than three months later for the same money. So, those are the kinds of things that you must, to look at, conditions. I mean, do you, do you, a typical problem that, uh, self-employed people have is that they deal with the client. And 12 people have a say in what they’re doing. [13:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: So you don’t want to handle the opinion of 12 persons. So, an important condition to negotiate is that the client delegates one representative that will handle all the comments internally and arbitrate them so that you will get a solid opinion without contradictions. That increases the quality of the work and the time for execution by sometimes a factor of 10 because you, and this has, and you, so in effect, you’re earning, if you do that, you’re earning more per hour per day, even if actually you have not managed to move them on, to budge them on the price, but you’re going to execute it with a lot more ease. So, all these aspects are, all these aspects matter. Ownership, you know, you have a lot of your listeners that deal with intellectual property. You know, whenever you write something that’s definite and is not a list, you immediately have intellectual property. So, the earnings are not going to be the same if you, if you sell it for good without possibility of reusing it, or if the client just gets a right on first use, which is not the same thing. We, Julie and I recycle our contents all the time. And why we can do that is because we manage to retain minimally the right to use our own stuff. [14:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Huh.
Julie Barlow: In a different form. So, we take a book and make a magazine or take a magazine and make a book or a radio show. And we’ve recently been working on TV series.
Nancy Calabrese: Why is it important for business owners to say no and no one to say no?
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Oh, it’s because it’s the most important term in any negotiation. And no is not a refusal necessarily. It just means that what’s being said to you is not quite acceptable. You know, there’s that old motto that the client is always right. Well, no. At the time of negotiation, the client is often wrong. [15:45]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. I agree.
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: There are polite ways of saying no. You can say it’s too long, it’s too short.
Julie Barlow: I don’t understand the order.
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Yeah, it’s not clear.
Julie Barlow: The order is not realistic. Deadline, yeah, deadline, job doesn’t, you can say the job doesn’t pay enough.
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Yeah, you’re not interested in the form it is. As you know someone else who would be doing, you don’t have the time, the deadline is too short. Those are all ways of saying no that are constructive because they are explanatory and if the client really wants you to do it, is often capable of modifying their criteria naturally. [16:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Do you have any best practices for promoting what we do on the web?
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: Oh, I would say that the most important thing is not overdoing it. Nowadays, we can do a lot with…
Julie Barlow: Social media, Julie. Yes, but I guess one of the more supports, I mean, it’s very hard now, one of the lessons of the book is it’s very hard for people to decide where to start, where to stop, how to limit what they’re doing. I mean, it just sounds, it’s enormous. You can get into social media and start working on many platforms at the same time. Our advice with experience over the years. [17:14]
Nancy Calabrese: What’s the formula though? What do you recommend? How many posts are, you know, a good number to post each week?
Julie Barlow: You know, I think it depends on a little bit on what you’re promoting. Right now, for instance, for this book I promote on LinkedIn, and I post probably four times a week, sometimes five days a week, sometimes just one. I mean, you must have something interesting to say online. You can’t be sort of online on a forum you know, singing your own praises every time you go online. So, it’s good to join a conversation. It’s good to share information with your readers related to the book, sometimes not related to the book, just to help people because again, what people are looking for are solutions to the problems in their everyday life. Obviously, I want them to come back and buy the book, but you know, I want to be helpful. I want them to know that I’m a source that can help them with what they’re doing. [18:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, well, I can’t believe we’re up in time. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Jean-Benoît Nadeau: I would say that once you have your business going, you’re going to be busy soon, quickly. A very important thing is figuring out your purpose. Julie alluded to that. But you know, if you start a school for social dancing, you’re not going to take all the hundreds of little decisions whether if your purpose is to start a franchise of school dancing or have your clients win the Olympics of social dancing or create a shoe for social dancing. You will not choose your clients in the same way, your venue, you’re not going to publicize in the same way. So, the idea of having a purpose, what are you doing this for, is very, very important. It’s the essence of a business plan, which is not a 200-page document, but is a really, really a document about yourself, really. And knowing thyself better is the old Socrates motto, really applies to self-employed people. [19:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, so how can my people find you?
Julie Barlow: The book is available on Amazon. We have two versions. We’re based in Montreal, so we have a Canadian edition with a little Canadian flag in the corner and the US edition with them. All bookstores have it. Our website, Nadeau Barlow, people can reach us there, N-A-D-E-A-U-B-A-R-L-O-W.com. And people can find us there. Or of course, we’re on LinkedIn. Easy to find. [20:12]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, everyone out there, this couple is fascinating. And for all of you thinking about starting your business or maybe just having started the business, I think the book is a great read with great recommendations. And even if you have an established business, you know, there might be some points in there that you’re not considering. So, until we speak again, first, I want to thank you both for being on the show and sharing your expertise and people take advantage of their wisdom. They’re a fascinating couple. And I know they’d be happy to help you buy that book too. And until we speak again, make it an awesome sales day. [20:59]
