About Hamish Knox: Hamish Knox is a member of the global Sandler network. Hamish supports private organizations in Southern Alberta create and maintain a scalable, repeatable, consistent sales engines and an engaged, motivated team by holding them accountable to implementing the structures, systems, and processes shared in our sessions. Before joining the Sandler network, Hamish worked in various industries, including media, communication services, software, and professional sports, which melded his passions for sales and education. Hamish was named the 2020 David H. Sandler Award winner, Sandler’s highest honor, becoming the first Canadian trainer to receive that award. He was the first two-time author in the Sandler network, writing books on topics no one likes to talk about. His first book was on Accountability the Sandler Way, and his second on Change the Sandler Way. Sandler Home Office regularly invites Hamish to speak at Sandler’s train-the-trainer conferences and Sandler’s public Sales and Leadership Summit in Orlando. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Hamish.
In this episode, Nancy and Hamish discuss the following:
- Hamish’s motivation to move to Sandler
- The importance of having systems in place for success by design, rather than success by default, in sales organizations
- Differentiating on how you sell, not what you sell
- The value of David H. Sandler Award
- Accountability and the fear of change in sales
- The importance of making the conversation about the buyer and not about the seller’s needs
Key Takeaways:
- Without systems, it’s very much, you know, flying by the seat of your pants, which is a cliche that gets bandied about.
- Sandler is not just about a bunch of cheesy lines or techniques or saying these seven things; you’ll always get the meeting or the order.
- If we don’t have accountability, if we don’t have the boundaries defined, our salespeople are going to make it up.
- I genuinely love what I do.
“You know, people, what’s the cliche about people fear three things: death, taxes, and change? Because our brains are wired to keep us safe, which usually means stuck. Because no matter where you believe that we all came from, whoever, you know, the listeners out there, wherever you believe that humanity emerged from, ultimately, our brains are still wired that way, right? Our brains are still looking for the lions and the saber-toothed tigers that are going to eat us. And so, ultimately, change used to mean that you died, or you went hungry, and then you died. So, you were dead, but you were just more or less full in your stomach when you died. And so, our brains are still back there. So, no one likes change. And the book Change the Sandler Way is really about the human side of change because, ultimately, Nancy, change is super simple. Like, it’s, we don’t have a CRM today, we do have a CRM tomorrow. That’s change. Human beings don’t change, they transition, and transition is almost like the five stages of grief. And so that book is all about how we support leaders who go through these same emotions well before their team members actually manage a successful change. I recently saw that 89% of all corporate change initiatives fail. Yeah, like it was a number that blew my mind. And you think about how many probable billions of dollars are spent on these initiatives from buying the product or service and having the team meetings and getting things going to have it fail that much. There’s got to be a better way.” – HAMISH
“Sandler is a number of things. So, number one, it’s about differentiating on how you sell, not what you sell. Because what we sell is a commodity in the minds of our buyers. It doesn’t matter what we’re selling. And the only way to differentiate a commodity is typically by price. And so, with Sandler, we seek to create clarity with our buyers. I was talking to a very, very successful entrepreneur yesterday. We’re in a mastermind group, and they were saying, well, what do you suggest I do? Because I’m the primary seller. And I said, well, let’s pretend I’m your client. What would you say to me when I say, well, what’s going to happen today, right? We booked a call. What’s going to happen today? And they’re like, well, you know, here’s our process for building out, you know, the services that we offer. And I said, well, that’s great. But what’s gonna happen to me now in this sales call? And he said, well, I don’t know. And I said, well, that’s a problem because no one wants to talk to a salesperson. And so, If we don’t create clarity upfront with our potential, with our buyers, all they’re thinking is when is Hamish going to ask for my wallet? They’re not actually listening. So, we need to create that clarity upfront using the upfront contract, and which is like a supercharged agenda for listeners who haven’t heard about it before. And then pain, humans are animals, biologically that’s true, biologically we’re animals and animals are wired to move away from pain or towards pleasure. There was a study done in Vegas, which is a great place to study both pain and pleasure, that pain was a five times greater motivator than pleasure. And a lot of people, when they hear that, they don’t wanna think about pain. And what I tell my clients is you’re never going to say pain to your buyer. You’re never gonna say, “Nancy, let’s talk about your pain with getting real qualified opportunities in the top of your funnel,” because you’re going to look at me like, “You went to a sales training class, didn’t you? You’ve got a shiny new toy you want to try out.” – HAMISH
“The one takeaway I want the audience to go with is it’s never about us, it’s always about the buyer. So, if the buyer calls up and goes, if we ring ring hello and the buyer goes, what, that’s not about us. And if the buyer says, well, why should I work with you? And you say, well, here’s some reasons why other people have worked with us. Are any of those relevant to you? So always making it about the buyer and never about us and getting our emotional needs met is very, very powerful.” – HAMISH
Connect with Hamish Knox:
- LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamishknox/
- Sandler: https://www.hamish.sandler.com/howtosandler
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
- Twitter:https://twitter.com/oneofakindsales
- Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/One-Of-A-Kind-Sales-304978633264832/
- Website:https://oneofakindsales.com
- Phone: 908-879-2911
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ncalabrese/
- Email: leads@oneofakindsales.com
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Hamish Knox, president of Sandler in Calgary. Hamish is a member of the Global Sandler Network and supports private organizations in Southern Alberta to create and maintain scalable, repeatable, consistent sales engines, and an engaged, motivated team by holding them accountable to implementing the structures, systems, and processes shared in our sessions, or in the sessions. Hamish plays an important role in Sandler’s worldwide organization and is recognized nationally and internationally as a business development expert specializing in executive sales consulting and sales productivity training. Well, as you all know, everyone, I’m a huge Sandler fan, so this is gonna be a great conversation. Welcome to the show, Hamish.
Hamish Knox: Thanks for having me, Nancy. [1:26]
Nancy Calabrese: You’re a lot of fun. So, this is going to be a fun discussion. So, I know you worked in other industries before Sandler. What motivated you to move to Sandler?
Hamish Knox: So, I actually had a sales training company off the side of my desk that was inspired by a couple of my clients at the time who were two partners in a public relations firm, and we were meeting for a quarterly review and they said, you know, we really wish we could do what you do. And I said, well, first define what is what you think I do as a salesperson. And they said, well, like, if you want us to call up the business editor of a national newspaper and pitch them on our client, we could do that all day long. But if you want us to call up the CEO of a local company and go, want some PR? That’s not something that we’re going to do. So I went, there might be something here. But what got me into Sandler was my last sales manager, his name is Gord. He’s thanked in my first book on accountability. We randomly decided to have dinner at the same Portuguese restaurant in Montreal. We were there for meetings. And I was catching up with him and he said, have you ever heard of Sandler? And I said, no. And he says, it’s really how you think and talk and act. And I said, thanks, I think. And that night I couldn’t sleep, I had jet lag, so I did some Googling and I found an article by Bill Bartlett, who was a colleague of mine in Sandler until he gracefully retired earlier this year. And it was like I walked into a church and God spoke to me. And I was like, how do I get more of this stuff? So that’s the short version of what prompted me to join Sandler. [3:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. You know, Sandler is all about having systems and why is it important to have systems in place?
Hamish Knox: Because without systems, it’s very much, you know, flying by the seat of your pants is a cliche that gets bandied about. Ultimately, it’s success by default instead of success by design is how I characterize it. There are plenty of great organizations, plenty of great individuals out there who are successful by default. And all that means is if we go to that individual and say, wow, you are super successful, how did you become the number one, whatever, or how did you get your company to be this big? They would be like, I stuff and things, I sold. And they would have no processes to fall back on. And for entrepreneurs who eventually wanna exit, they get a higher multiple if their sales engine is really built like Lego. And where we can pop the current owner out, we can pop Nancy in and the whole thing continues to grow in scale. [4:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, person joins the program. Typically, how long does it take a client to get it like the light bulb goes off?
Hamish Knox: Your mileage may vary. I had one client who had run a million-dollar commercial HVAC business for 10 years, doing a million dollars a year, the entire seller by themselves. Within the first six weeks of working with us, they had increased their revenue by $300 ,000, which, you know, that’s kind of material. There are some people who, it will take upwards of 12 months or even longer. And that’s ultimately because as you know, Nancy, Sandler is not just about a bunch of cheesy lines or techniques or say these seven things and you’ll always get the meeting or the order. It starts with our mindset. And as humans, we’re kind of committed to our worldviews. And so sometimes it takes a while for someone to go, I get it. In fact, I was just actually got an email from, a former client who I worked with for four years in my sales development program, and I was sharing with a new team member, I probably fought with them every week for the first six months they were working with us. And now they are one of our biggest fans and advocates. [5:43]
Nancy Calabrese: Why? Wow. Well, you know, I think, you know, for everyone out there in the audience, it’s you’re being trained to sound and speak differently, right? Up front contract, pattern interrupt, pain. Why don’t you talk about some of those areas of Sandler?
Hamish Knox: So, Sandler is a number of things. So, number one, it’s about differentiating on how you sell, not what you sell. Because what we sell is a commodity in the minds of our buyers. It doesn’t matter what we’re selling. And the only way to differentiate a commodity is typically price. And so, with Sandler, we seek to create clarity with our buyers. I was talking to a very, very successful entrepreneur yesterday. We’re in a mastermind group together and they were saying, well, what what do you suggest I do? Because I’m the primary seller. And I said, well, let’s pretend I’m your client. What would you say to me when I say, well, what’s going to happen today, right? We book a call, what’s going to happen today? And they’re like, well, you know, here’s our process for building out, you know, the services that we offer. And I said, well, that’s great. But what’s gonna happen to me now in this sales call? And he said, well, I don’t know. And I said, well, that’s a problem because no one wants to talk to a salesperson. And so, If we don’t create clarity upfront with our potential, with our buyers, all they’re thinking is when is Hamish going to ask for my wallet? They’re not actually listening. So, we need to create that clarity upfront using the upfront contract, and which is like a supercharged agenda for listeners who haven’t heard about it before. And then pain, humans are animals, biologically that’s true, biologically we’re animals and animals are wired to move away from pain or towards pleasure. There was a study done in Vegas, which is a great place to study both pain and pleasure, that pain was a five times greater motivator than pleasure. And a lot of people, when they hear that, they don’t wanna think about pain. And what I tell my clients is, you’re never going to say pain to your buyer. You’re never gonna say, Nancy, let’s talk about your pain with getting real qualified opportunities in the top of your funnel, because you’re going to look at me like, You went to a sales training class, didn’t you? You’ve got a shiny new toy you want to try out. [8:05]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, really. Well, listen, you were named in 2020, you were awarded the David H. Sandler Award. So, what did you do to win it?
Hamish Knox: So, what it says in the nomination requirements is, you know, grew a very successful business, which I am grateful for the trust of our clients, that they trust us to support them in sustainably scaling their sales. So, I’ve grown a very great business. I’ve grown a very incredible team here at Sandler Calgary. And as you read my bio, Nancy, I am remiss in not giving you an updated one, because I’m no longer the president of Sandler Calgary. We promoted my long -term associate, Nisha Berman, to president at the Sandler Summit in March in Orlando where we got to meet in person for the first time. So, I have a great team. And then supporting the network. And I tell all my colleagues in Sandler, I have an open phone policy. It doesn’t matter to me what role you are because Sandler has that concept of equal business stature, which I firmly believe in. So, anybody in the Sandler network, I am happy to support at any time. And the thing that was super special for me about the David H Sandler Award, I mean, first, it was the last event before everything shut down. Like it was, we were the last airplane to land at the Calgary airport before you had to quarantine for two weeks back in March of 2020. And the special thing for me was not only was this a nomination of my peers, so every year the Sandler Network nominates the people for David H. Sandler Award. It was also a vote of my peers. So, my peers globally actually not only nominated me, but they also named me. They selected me as the David H. Sandler Award recipient that year. I’m the only Canadian to have ever received that award, which is also very special. So, what I ultimately did, Nancy, is I lived the values that David Sandler set out about consistent, sustainably scalable sales growth and supporting as many people as I can. [10:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Wonderful, congratulations. And I know that you were the first two -time author in the Sandler Network writing books. And you say on topics no one likes to talk about. Accountability the Sandler way and the second one is changing the Sandler way. Why don’t people like to talk about these topics?
Hamish Knox: Well, let’s do the second one first. So change, right? You know, people, what’s the cliche about people fear three things, death, taxes, and change? Because our brains are wired to keep us safe, and that usually means stuck. Because no matter where you believe that we all came from, whoever, you know, the listeners out there, wherever you believe that humanity emerged from, ultimately our brains are still wired that way, right? Our brains are still looking for the lions and the saber -toothed tigers that are going to eat us. And so ultimately, change used to mean that you died, or you went hungry and then you died. So, you were dead, but you were just more or less full in your stomach when you died. And so, our brains are still back there. So, no one likes change. And the book, Change the Sandler Way, is really about the human side of change, because ultimately, Nancy, change is super simple. Like, it’s, we don’t have a CRM today, we do have a CRM tomorrow. That’s change. Human beings don’t change, they transition, and transition is almost like the five stages of grief. And so that book is all about how we support leaders who go through these same emotions well before their team members do actually manage a successful change. I saw a stat recently that like 89 % of all corporate change initiatives fail. Yeah, like it was a number that blew my mind. And you think about how many probable billions of dollars are spent on these initiatives from buying the product or service and having the team meetings and getting things going to have it fail that much. There’s got to be a better way. [12:40]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Why do you think it fails so much?
Hamish Knox: Well, because ultimately, and this is part of the first part of that book is as a leader, so let’s just say, Nancy, that you were going to change the compensation plan in your organization. It’s just easy example. Well, you go through all the change emotions when you go through that change, except you don’t just have a thought on Monday and say, we’re going to change the comp plan. And Monday afternoon, you’re in front of your team saying, team, here’s the new comp plan it’s going to take three, six, nine, 18 months to change. So, by the time that you roll it out to your team, you’ve forgotten, cause you’re human, that you went through those emotions. So, when you roll it out to the team and you don’t have a hundred percent of your team going, boss, great idea. Can’t imagine why we didn’t do this before. Your kind of like, well, hey guys, what the heck’s going on? You know, this is the way things are, but it’s because we as leaders, we went through those emotions so long ago that we are not prepared to support our team members when they’re going through the emotions when we make the announcement. [13:54]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, talk about accountability.
Hamish Knox: It’s not punishment lapse. It’s not micromanaging. It’s not handcuffs. It’s, it’s freedom for me because accountability defines the playing field. And that’s something that I find lacks consistently in sales organizations, whether, you know, it’s got to be more than one because if there’s only one person selling in the organization, well, they define their own playing field. Once we start to build out a sales team and a sales organization, we typically do not as leaders define the playing field. And without those guardrails, those boundaries, those whatever’s that we want to label them, our team is running off in all sorts of different directions because they have no idea which way to go. It’s almost like I used to coach my eldest daughter when she turned four in soccer, and it wasn’t really coaching soccer. It was like rolling the ball out and letting them burn calories for an hour while their parents sat on the sidelines. And my eldest daughter, when she got the ball, it didn’t matter which direction the goal was. She was going to go in the direction the ball was going. So, if the ball was going perpendicular to the goal, she was gone. And it was great because she had fun. She loved it. However, not very productive for putting the ball in the net. And I appreciate at four years old, that’s not necessarily the goal. And it’s a good illustration of if we don’t have accountability, if we don’t have the boundaries defined, our salespeople are going to make it up. [15:34]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. That’s cute. So, you know, and I know you mentioned you and I met this year at the summit, and I don’t know how many times you’ve presented. You were fabulous. What do you gain from presenting at the summit?
Hamish Knox: So, my North Star, it’s on my vision board, which is just to the left of my computer that we’re recording on, is to create generational wealth for my daughters and I to enjoy now by supporting as many sales leaders and sellers as possible. And some people might react a little bit to that first part. And the fact of the matter is, that first part was added on like after the fifth or sixth iteration because I often don’t put myself first. I’m very much in that how can I support you model. And so, someone pointed out like, hey, that’s great Hamish, except if you can’t pay your bills, like how are you going to support people? Like, yeah, fair point. So that’s where I added that first part in. And my daily question is who did I support today? And what I get out of presenting at Summit is, I’m a bit of an entertainer. I think Nancy, you know that about me. So, I like being on stage. I did standup comedy in front of 700 people when I was 11 years old. So, I like being on stage. I like making people laugh. I like entertaining. And my goal is to support someone. So, what I get out of speaking at the summit is I get to live my North Star. I get to live my purpose every day. And I said this to a buyer this morning, I don’t work. I really don’t. Like yes, I’m a business. I do want to get paid. I do have visions and goals that require money to make them work, operate. And I love doing this stuff, Nancy. I love it. I genuinely love what I do. [17:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, that’s pretty darn obvious. And last question. I know Sandler recently revised their curriculum. Why was that?
Hamish Knox: Mm -hmm. So ultimately, because things had changed and we did do a rebrand, so Sandler globally did go through a rebrand a couple of Junes ago, so we wanted to align more with what our corporate branding looked like. And we have AI now. We have new ways of interacting with buyers. We have more buyers in the process now because most organizations, especially at the enterprise level, have become massively risk averse, especially post COVID. So, the beauty of Sandler is it’s always been about having more effective human to human interactions professionally and personally. And so, as I said to a client recently who’s like, well, Sandler is not industry specific. And I said, well, are you still selling to human beings? And he said, yup. And I said, awesome. So, if you are selling to human beings, we can provide some sort of support and guidance. And as David Sandler said, I’m giving you sheet music and helping you make it say in your world. So, if you need to give me some buzzwords or competitor names to make the examples, I’m giving relevant to your industry, rock and roll. However, Sandler’s about human to human. And as the human to human has changed in sales and in sales leadership, we added some new content, we updated and revised a few things to make it more resonant with the modern learner. [19:10]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, and also you and I spoke about this, and I don’t know if you’re doing it, but they created cohorts in the fall. And actually, I’m enjoying it because I have the opportunity to get to know some other trainers and get their point of view on topics, not just the same trainer. So, hey, we are up in time. I told you this was going to go by fast. How can my people find you? And before you do that, what is the one takeaway you want the audience to go with?
Hamish Knox: The one takeaway I want the audience to go with is it’s never about us, it’s always about the buyer. So, if the buyer calls up and go, if we ring ring hello and the buyer goes, what, that’s not about us. And if the buyer says, well, why should I work with you? And you say, well, here’s some reasons why other people have worked with us, are any of those relevant to you? So always making it about the buyer and never about us and getting our emotional needs met is very, very powerful. [20:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. How can everyone find you Hamish?
Hamish Knox: So, there are not very many Hamish Knox’s in the world. In fact, I am the number one Google result for Hamish Knox globally. So, if you punch Hamish Knox into Google, I’m going to show up at the top. So that’s an easy way. You can find me on LinkedIn. If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, please mention that you heard me on Nancy’s show, because you’re probably surprised I got a lot of inbound connection requests and I want to support everybody and I want to make sure that I know where people are connecting me from. You can also check out my podcast, Full Funnel Freedom, which Nancy was a killer guest on back in April of 2024. And those would be the best ways to get ahold of it. [21:09]
Nancy Calabrese: I had so much fun. Yeah, you know, I forgot to mention the podcast. You are awesome. So, folks, this is the guy to go to. He’s an excellent trainer, but an entertainer too. So, there is never a dull moment. Take advantage of his expertise. Reach out to Hamish and Hamish, thanks so much for being on my show. You make me smile every time I talk to you and I love smiling. So maybe in the future we’ll do it again. And until we speak again, everyone makes it an awesome sales day until next time. [21:47]
