About Carlos A. Alvarenga: Carlos A. Alvarenga is an independent researcher, writer, and coach. His new book, “The Rules of Persuasion: How the World’s Greatest Communicators Convince, Inspire, Lead—and, Sometimes, Deceive” (Post Hill Press, 2023), not only explains how persuasion works in all forms of human communication but also presents a clear and effective model that can be used in both personal and professional lives. Before his current roles, Carlos was the Executive Director of World 50 Labs, the member-innovation team at World 50, Inc. Before that, he served as a Principal in Ernst & Young’s Advisory Practice and as a Managing Director at Accenture. Additionally, he was an adjunct professor at the Robert H. Smith School of Business at the University of Maryland. Currently, Carlos is pursuing his Ph.D. in language, writing, and rhetoric at the University of Maryland. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Carlos.
In this episode, Nancy and Carlos discuss the following:
- What motivated Carlos to become an expert in persuasion
- Importance of defining persuasion and its application in leadership
- The impact of persuasion on sales effectiveness
- The distinction between coercion, manipulation, and persuasion
- The potential for persuasion to be used for both good and evil
- Exploring the dark side of persuasion with historical examples
Key Takeaways:
- It’s hard to be good at something you can’t define.
- Persuasion is a fundamental human activity.
- Persuasion is getting someone to willingly, rationally, and ultimately control their faculties and accept that what you say is true.
- And the opposite of persuasion is coercion. If I explain to you why doing something is a good thing, that’s persuasion. If I trick you, that’s manipulation.
“I explained in the book that if we take these three modes—character, argument, and emotion—we can divide each into seven elements. So, the seven parts of character include, for example, the language you use, your history, where you come from, and these kinds of things. There are seven elements of argument: evidence, logic, and witnesses. Then, there are seven kinds of emotion: positive, negative, contemplative, etc. When I had these 21 elements, I needed a metaphor to help clarify it for me and the reader. I went back to high school chemistry and said, it’s like a periodic table. Every message I’ve ever looked at, and I’ve looked at thousands, combines these 21 elements. So that’s step one. It’s like learning chemistry, right, Nancy? First, start with elements like carbon, hydrogen, and whatever else you will use. Then, you learn some very simple formulas. Learn the elements that work for you, which ones you feel comfortable working with, and which you like to work with, and then start putting them to work. Within an hour of coaching, I’ve seen people become better at this because they now understand that if they use their origin as one of the elements, people will want to believe them more.” – CARLOS
“Logic is one of the seven elements of argument, so it’s on the periodic table. It certainly can be used, right? And people who are doctors and scientists often use logic to persuade. We have broadly spoken about two types of education. If you want to use logic, you can become a philosopher, right? And become a logician and get a PhD in logic. You can become a lawyer. Lawyers also get trained in the use of logic to persuade. But it’s one of the 21 elements. We are often persuaded, and we are more often persuaded, I think, by other things. Because you must go to specialized schools to use argument well, most people are not experts at it, either in creating or receiving logical persuasion. So, we tend to be persuaded more by character, for example, or emotion. They operate in different ways. And so, logic is certainly helpful. But I always challenge executives. I say I want you to start persuading me using nothing but logic—strict, well-constructed, internally consistent, effective logical sequences. And if you can make it to three minutes, I’ll give you a prize. Unless you’re a professional, you can’t. Most people fall apart after about a sentence and a half.” – CARLOS
“Let’s start with the fact that persuasion is predictable. Yeah, I can tell you how someone will, what form of listening they’ll use most of the time, and whether it’ll be effective. And sometimes it’s like magic. I work, coach, and say, I want you to change these two or three things you just told me. And the effect is dramatically different. I’ve had people break into tears when they finally get the message right. And they think it’s something that’s special. And I say, it’s not. You wouldn’t be amazed if you went to a chemist and the chemist made you aspirin. Don’t be amazed. I’m just following the rules. And if you follow the rules, more often than not, exactly what should happen will happen, just like with real chemistry.” – CARLOS
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Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Carlos Alvarenga, an independent communications researcher, writer and coach. His new book, The Rules of Persuasion, explains exactly how persuasion works in all forms of human communication. Using insights and examples from art to history, to literature, to hip hop, his book updates and expands ideas first presented in Aristotle’s rhetoric, adding original observations regarding the role of the audience in persuasion, persuasion in social media, as well as what happens when the rules of persuasion are used to deceive and corrupt audiences. That’s awful. Welcome to the show, Carlos.
Carlos Alvarenga: Nancy, it’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having been on your show. [1:20]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I’m just curious, how did you get involved, you know, and your, how did you focus on persuasion? What motivated you to become an expert in it?
Carlos Alvarenga: So, a few years ago, I left my consulting and business career and I wanted to write. So, I sit down to write a novel. And at the same time, I decided to volunteer with nonprofits because when you write full -time, it tends to be a little bit of a lonely job. You’re working by yourself. Most of the time, I thought it’d be fun to volunteer. And I went on a website that matches volunteers with nonprofit leaders. And the very first project I was matched with was a gentleman, very senior gentleman in Europe who leads a phenomenal global disaster relief organization. And his challenge was, help me, I need to be a better communicator. I ordered some books on what I thought was persuasion. And when I got them, I realized they really weren’t about persuasion. They were about influence or psychology or selling. And I was looking for a book on that topic. I remembered a book that I wrote in college called The Rhetoric by Aristotle. I dusted it off, turned it into a PowerPoint, took this gentleman through this book. It worked wonderfully. We did a second project together. A year later, I had done a dozen and my wife said, you really should write this down. You’ve done a nice job of explaining Aristotle and updating it for our modern audience. And so I took on that project and three years later, because publishing is a slow business. Last fall the book arrived and it’s called The Rules of Persuasion. [2:55]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, congratulations. So why is it so important to define persuasion?
Carlos Alvarenga: Well, I start with that with people like Coach because I say it’s hard to be good at something you can’t define. Right. If you can’t tell me what baseball is, you’re going to have a really hard time being a very good baseball player, I think. And so, the idea is that one reason we struggle is that we haven’t thought about what persuasion really is. And so, we start with Aristotle’s definition, which is the demonstration that something is true or that appears to be true. And I give people a common language and framework to think about this. And I find that even just having a definition and a common way of thinking about this already can help make you a more persuasive communicator. [3:40]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So why is persuasion important for leaders?
Carlos Alvarenga: Well, almost every time we talk to people, we want them to agree about something, right? And it is a fundamental human need that we have to have others agree with us. And so, persuasion is the means by which we affect that outcome. And so, if you want others to agree, and you’re not doing it by force or manipulation, which is not what persuasion is, then you have to use this set of techniques in order to achieve the goals you have, whether it’s to lead a company, teach a class, lead a nation. Almost every profession that you can think of requires at some point, except maybe being king, to persuade people about many different things. It’s a fundamental human activity. [4:30]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, talk about persuasion as it relates to sales.
Carlos Alvarenga: Right, so this is a key thing. When we are selling, as we know, because we’ve seen people who are good and people who are not so good, I think the best-selling is one that persuades. The not so good selling is one that manipulates or tricks. And so ideally, we want to, I think, a customer to willingly purchase what we’re offering them. And that makes the best transaction. And so that’s where persuasion enters the picture because persuasion is getting someone to willingly, rationally, in full control of their faculties, accept what you say is true as true. And people sometimes ask me, what’s the relationship between my book and books like Cialdini’s book on influence or great books on selling? And I say, my book is about the chemistry of persuasion. And so, and that’s the point I make in the book, persuasion is chemistry with language. So, it is one step before those books, right? Those books, I think with them as medicine, which are applying the rules to specific situations like negotiation and selling. I think of my book as a little bit more fundamental. It is the thing that underlies, right, great books or classes you may have taken on negotiation or selling. [5:54]
Nancy Calabrese: So, is persuasion something that’s innate within people or is it a skill that can be learned and cultivated?
Carlos Alvarenga: I certainly think that it’s both, right? In fact, in Aristotle’s book, he says persuasion is a word called technē. We would spell it T -E -C -H -N -E, technē. We get the word technē from. Technē is a Greek word that has no counterpart in English. So, you’ll sometimes you’ll hear it translated as the art of it, but it isn’t really an art. It’s actually a technical art or art with purpose. And so that means that it does that it can that it depends on rules, and it has technique. But someone with natural talent can make it even better. Right. So there are great communicators who’ve never studied persuasion. But anyone can get better, I think, if they do understand the technique. It’s all like music in a sense. Right. [6:51]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Well, I think anybody can get better in anything, right? If they make their mind, set their mind to do it. So, what are some of the traps to avoid and can attempts to persuade backfire?
Carlos Alvarenga: Well, I’ll tell you what I find when I coach people, right? So again, in my book, I explain, I re -explained what Aristotle said that there are three modes of persuasion. The character of the person speaking or the entity speaking, maybe it’s a school or a government. There are the arguments presented, things like facts and figures and evidence. And then there is the emotion the, what is felt by the audience as you communicate and when you’re done communicating. And so, what I find with people I coach is that especially executives in business, they, they over ly on the second that they, they, they, yeah, they, they overuse argument. In fact, I say persuasion, you can think of it as a ship with three, with three masses, but only one sale is up most of the time. So, what I tell people is let’s lower the argument sale because it’s hard to get right and people have a hard time following it. Let’s open the character sale. Let’s open the emotion sale. And people, for whatever reason, have come to the conclusion oftentimes that they shouldn’t be part of the story. And on the emotion, they either try to work with emotion, they couldn’t do it, or they don’t think it doesn’t belong in a context like business, but it does. And so you’re really leaving the two most and imagine the sales aren’t even equal size. The character is the biggest sale. Emotion is the next biggest and argument is the smallest. And that’s the one people have. So I say, let’s open the two, watch the ship go farther and faster. And with a lot less stress on the argument. Right. [8:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So how long does it take for someone to really become more persuasive?
Carlos Alvarenga: I think it happens very quick. And I don’t think I know because I’ve watched the people I’ve coached. There are things you can do that would have you that would make you a more effective communicator within 30 minutes, within five. Right. And if you want to master it at a very high level, at an academic level, or as a, or as a, I’d say someone that you’re going to coach or teach or write about it. Sure. That takes a while, but as a communicator, there are simple things that I help people with that are just almost like mindset changes. If you get the problem from a different perspective, you suddenly get a much better message and a much better reaction from the audience. And I’ll give you an example. I asked people, I get called in to do like startup pitches and pitch decks and these kinds of things. And, and I, I’ll ask the question, okay, I’ve heard the pitch explain to me what emotion he, what made it feel now when you finished talking. And I tell you that people can’t. And I say, well, I’m going to feel something. Right. And so, if, if it’s, if you’re not in control, then it’s, then you’re leaving it up to chance. Why not pause for a moment and think about that? And if and if I can show you how to generate that emotion, you’re you’re already a much better communicator. [9:58]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So, if someone wanted to become more persuasive, how would they go about getting started?
Carlos Alvarenga: I think the, again, it’s where I wrote the book. I explained the book that if we take these three modes, right, character, argument, and emotion, we can divide each one into seven elements. So, the seven parts of character, like for example, the language you use, your history, where you come from, these kinds of things. Seven elements of argument, things like evidence, logic, witnesses. And then there are seven kinds of emotion, positive, negative, contemplative, et cetera. So when I had these 21 things, that’s what they added to like 21 things, I needed a metaphor to help clarify it for me and for the reader. And I went back to high school chemistry and I said, it’s kind of like a periodic table, right? And every message I’ve ever looked at, and I’ve looked at thousands, is some combination of these 21 things. So that’s step one. Understand the, it’s like learning chemistry, right Nancy? You first start with, there’s carbon, there’s hydrogen, it’s whatever else you’re gonna use, right? We’re gonna be working with today. And then you learn some very simple formulas. Learn the elements that work for you. Which ones do you feel comfortable working with? Which ones do you like to work with? And then start putting them to work. And like I said, within an hour, I’ve seen people, an hour of coaching and suddenly they’re better at this because they now understand, okay, if I use my origin as one of the elements, well, then you will want to believe me more. [11:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Wow. You know, I opened with some people use persuasion to deceive and corrupt audiences, which is horrible. Why do they do that? What is it, the dark side of it?
Carlos Alvarenga: Yeah, you know, the terrible side is this, right? Chemistry, again, the metaphor that runs throughout the whole book, is amoral, right? I can save your life with chemistry. I can take it with chemistry. And so, the same thing is true of the language version of chemistry, which is that in the right hands, language can build or save a nation, right? In the wrong hands, you can destroy one. And so unfortunately, history is full of examples of people who were very good at the chemistry of persuasion, who had terrible goals, terrible ideas, and created untold devastation because the power of persuasion fell into the wrong hands. [12:35]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, makes me think of Hitler.
Carlos Alvarenga: Well, this is actually the chapter nine in the book is an examination of the language of the Third Reich and the way in which the chemistry of language worked within the Nazi regime. And I describe nine specific formulations. And I say in the book, the reason I pick these nine is that all nine are present in American social and political discourse, indication that someone’s trying to poison us. [13:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, still frozen? Wow, and it’s still present.
Carlos Alvarenga: Absolutely and increasing.
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Why is it increasing?
Carlos Alvarenga: Because society is becoming increasingly fragmented and polarized. So instead of seeing our opponents as wrong, we see them as evil in many cases. And then the next logical step is to say, well, if it’s evil, it must be destroyed. And I must convince you that the person who disagrees with us, right, us, is not just wrong, but bad. And that leads to corrupt applications. [13:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So, what’s the difference between coercion and persuasion?
Carlos Alvarenga: Yeah, so coercion is getting someone to do something by force. Right. And so, to me, there’s coercion, manipulation, and persuasion as a kind of spectrum. And the opposite of persuasion is coercion. If I put a gun to your head and say, you must do this, then I’ve coerced you. If I explain to you why doing something is a good thing, you do it of your own free will, that’s persuasion. If I trick you, that’s manipulation. [14:10]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. And is persuasion fundamentally a logical process? And if so, can a logical people be truly persuaded?
Carlos Alvarenga: Logic is one of the seven elements of argument. So, it’s on the periodic table. It certainly can be used, right? And people who are doctors and scientists often use logic to persuade. In fact, we have broadly spoken two types of education. If you want to use logic, you can become a philosopher, right? And become a logician, get a PhD in logic. You can become a lawyer. Lawyers also get trained in the use of logic to persuade. But it’s one of the 21 elements we are often persuaded, and we are more often persuaded I think by other things. Because you must go to specialized schools to use argument well, most people are not experts at it. And so, either in creating or receiving logical persuasion. So, we tend to be persuaded more by character, for example, or emotion. They operate in different ways. And so, logic is certainly helpful. But I always challenge executives. I say, I want you to start persuading me using nothing but logic, strict, well -constructed, internally consistent, effective, logical sequences. And if you can make it to three minutes, I’ll give you a prize. Unless you’re a professional, you can’t. Most people fall apart after about a sentence and a half. [15:45]
Nancy Calabrese: So, can you argue with crazy?
Carlos Alvarenga: You can argue, but it won’t do you any good. You can argue with anything, I suppose, right? The question is, is it a good use of your time? Right. I had a psychiatrist friend said to me one time, because you never engage crazy. And so, or worse that effect. But I would say you can talk to the irrational, right? But you’re not arguing with them. Yeah. Right. [16:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Does that kind of go anywhere? No, you’re not going to get anywhere. Yeah.
Carlos Alvarenga: But sometimes people feel good, right? People vent all the time on social media, not because they expect to change anyone’s mind, just because I guess they must get some kind of enjoyment out of stating their positions.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh. Now I’ve heard that about ethos, pathos, and logos being important to persuasion, but what do they really mean?
Carlos Alvarenga: Well, that’s just it, right? The ethos, pathos, and logos are character, argument, and emotion. They’re the Greek words for these three things. And so, when I wrote the book, I didn’t want to use those words, because I’m writing in English. I’m not writing in Greek. So, I prefer terms, character, argument, and emotion. But they represent those terms. And you hear them mentioned a lot. What you don’t hear a lot is them explained in detail, because Aristotle doesn’t explain it in great detail. And that was really the point of my book was to allow someone to understand when we hear the term ethos translated often as character, what does it really mean? And what is the makeup of that? And that’s what the attempt of the book tries to do is to explain ethos, pathos, logos in a way that our modern audience would understand those concepts. Yeah. [17:29]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. Tell me something that’s true that almost nobody agrees with you on.
Carlos Alvarenga: Well, not yet hopefully. Let’s start with that persuasion is predictable. Yeah, I can tell you how someone will, what form of listening they’ll use most of the time, whether it’ll be effective or not. And sometimes it’s like magic. I work, coach, and I say, I want you to change these two or three things in which you just told me. And the effect is dramatically different. I’ve had people break into tears when they finally get the message right. And they think it’s something that’s special. And I say, it’s not. You wouldn’t be amazed if you went to a chemist and the chemist made you aspirin. Don’t be amazed. I’m just following the rules. And if you follow the rules, more often than not, exactly what should happen will happen, just like with real chemistry. [18:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, last question. So, a person is needing your guidance. What are some of their struggles? What are their pain points that would make them pick up the phone and give you a call?
Carlos Alvarenga: A typical thing is that they are over dependent on argument and haven’t thought about the other modes ever. Another thing might be that the message is not bad, but they have skipped a step. They forgot to ask themselves what must be true for this message to be effective. Another one would be that they, and this is probably the most common answer is that I’ll get a call saying, I’m nervous. I don’t like public speaking. I get agitated and I help, and I go, that’s not the problem. The problem is that the message isn’t right. And so, you’re nervous, not because you’re speaking in public, but because you’re delivering a message that you don’t fully comprehend or hasn’t been well developed. Watch, I say. If you still think after we’re done that you need mechanics, right, then you don’t have to pay me. But if I helped you, with the message and suddenly you feel comfortable, then you’ll realize that I was right. And I’ve never had the case where someone who I work with, to whom I said, it’s the message, not mechanics, that once the message was fixed, the mechanics went away by themselves. [19:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow. You know, I can’t believe we’re up in time. This is fascinating subject. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with and how can my people find you?
Carlos Alvarenga: The takeaway is it erased the idea that persuasion is a soft skill or that it’s some amorphous gift that some people have but don’t. It is chemistry, it is technique, and you can learn how to be much better at it by understanding how it works. And you can find me and reach me on my website, which is CarlosAlvarenga .com. There you can find out about current projects, future projects, and there’s also a way to reach out to me directly if you feel like you’d like. [20:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Great. Yeah, so alvaranga is spelled A -L -V -A -R -E -N -G -A. People, get in touch with this expert. You know, life is all about persuasion, you know? You want to…
Carlos Alvarenga: I think so, and it’s a fascinating topic, which is why I wrote the book.
Nancy Calabrese: It is. Whether you’re in business or you’re trying to get your kid to do something, I think it really would pay for you to have a one -on -one with Carlos. So, thanks so much for being on the show, Carlos. It was a lot of fun. And everyone out there, sharpen your persuasion skills, get in front of this guy, and it’s going to make you a better person no matter what role you have. So, until we speak. Make it a great sales day everyone out there and Carlos thanks again.
Carlos Alvarenga: Thank you, Nancy. Thank you, Mia. And thank you to your audience for listening. [21:33]
