by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 12, 2024 | Podcast
About Dave Kahle: Dave Kahle is the President of Kahle Way Sales Systems, a company where they help CEOs and VPs of Sales for Wholesale Distributors increase sales, gain market share, and significantly increase the ROI from their salespeople in 15-30 minutes a week. He is a B2B sales expert and Christian business thought leader. Dave helps his clients increase their sales and improve their sales productivity. He’s written twelve books, presented in 47 states and eleven countries, and has helped enrich tens of thousands of salespeople and transform hundreds of sales organizations. Sign up for his free weekly Ezine. Three international entities recognized his book, How to Sell Anything to Anyone Anytime, as “one of the five best English language business books.” Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Dave.
In this episode, Nancy and Dave discuss the following:
- The importance of sales processes
- Importance of sales processes: big picture vs. day-to-day
- Strategies to make prospects comfortable: first impressions, appropriate dressing, sharing personal details, effective questioning
- Investing in sales managers: their impact on salespeople’s behaviors
- Virtual selling: increased need for thorough preparation
- Use of “snippets” in sales conversations and their value in everyday life
Key Takeaways:
- Sharing something personal and unique about yourself breaks the barriers between you and the customer.
- The depth and detail of your question have a lot to do with how you make people comfortable with you.
- The sales managers are the in-between step between management and salespeople.
- Everybody can sell better if they choose to. They can.
“In that book, we talk about two different levels of sales process. The big-picture sales process is what a sales organization and the salesperson do over time. And then what I call the day-to-day or the nitty-gritty sales process is what a salesperson does with a customer or a prospect. […] Let me talk about the nitty-gritty sales process and how it relates to everyday activity. So, the first step in the prospect is to engage with the right people. And that can trump everything else. If you spend your time with the wrong people, no matter how well you do everything else, it’s a waste of time. So, step one is to engage with the right people. Step two is to make them comfortable with you. Because if they’re uncomfortable with you, they won’t react transparently and honestly. Step three: find out what they want. And again, there’s a whole body of content surrounding each of these. I mean, a couple of days’ training for each of these. The next step is to show them what you have given them and what they want. And again, that applies to anything, anywhere, anytime. That’s why it’s the title of the book. Then, you agree on the next step. And again, each one of these can be at least a couple of training days. At that point, you follow up because the decision is typically made in the business-to-business world. The decision to buy is typically made when you’re not there. So, you follow up and leverage satisfaction with this, which salespeople often neglect to do but to leverage satisfaction into additional internal or external opportunities. And then you know what? You’re back where you started from. So that’s the process. That’s the process that an individual salesperson uses to relate and sell anybody, anything. You have to do all those things regardless.” – DAVE
“There’s a whole lot of things, like number one, that is so often overlooked, and that is to make an excellent first impression—to look like you, to sound like someone that people can talk to and relate to. So that’s step one. And then there are so many things, like, for example, how you dress. I have a rule—you should dress like your customer, only a little better. So, if you’re a man wearing a suit and tie, calling on farmers, I mean, your suit and tie is separating you from connecting with that farmer, from making that customer comfortable with you. So, you dress like the customer, only a little bit better. And that’s the rule for everybody. And then, there’s sharing. I like to share something personal. It forces the customer to see you as a human being, not just a role player. You’re not just a salesperson; you’re a real person.- DAVE
“It’s here to stay, and it’s growing, and it has, and it required. It requires not necessarily something new, but the salespeople who are selling virtually have to be much better. For example, you cannot make an appointment to talk with somebody on a Zoom call and not be thoroughly prepared. You know, like so, the pressure to be thoroughly prepared so you’re not wasting time looking foolish on a Zoom call is far greater than if you stop by. You’re just going to stop by and see them, and sometimes you’re not fully prepared, but you cannot do that on a Zoom call. Now, it’s increased by a multiple. So, number one, they must be far more prepared. You know, with agendas and objectives of every sales call. That’s always been a best practice, but many have ignored it. You can’t ignore that anymore. And so, you know, that’s a big one. And then there are lots of things that kind of fall underneath that, things that you need to do when you’re selling virtually that you don’t necessarily need to pay that much attention to when you’re selling live.” – DAVE
Connect with Dave Kahle:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Dave Kahle, president of Kahle Way Sales Systems, enriching salespeople and transforming sales organizations by creating processes. strategies and systems of substance and delivering them via various media. Dave is a B2B sales guru and a Christian business thought leader. In the 30 years he has been in practice, he’s worked with over 500 individual companies. He’s presented in 11 countries and 47 states and authored 13 books, including the Good Book on Business, and How to Sell Anything to Anyone, Anytime. His books have been translated into eight languages and are available in 20 countries. Wow, Dave, welcome to the show.
Dave Kahle: Thank you, Nancy. It’s a pleasure and an honor to be here. [1:25]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, I’m delighted. I just want to jump right in. So how do you sell anything to anyone anytime?
Dave Kahle:Yeah, it’s about process, it’s about a sales process. And in that book, we talk about two different levels of sales process. The big picture sales process, which is what a sales organization and the salesperson does over time. And then what I call the day to day or the nitty gritty sales process, which is what a salesperson does with a customer or a prospect. [2:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Well, let’s talk about day to day a little bit. What activities should a salesperson do each day to keep their pipeline filled with qualified prospects and keep their clients happy?
Dave Kahle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So let me answer that in a roundabout way. First, let me talk about the nitty -gritty sales process and then how it relates to everyday activity. So, the first step in the prospect is to engage with the right people. And that can trump everything else. If you’re spending your time with the wrong people, then no matter how well you do everything else, it’s a waste of time. So, step one is to engage with the right people. Step two is to make them comfortable with you. Because if they’re not comfortable with you, then they’re not going to react transparently and honestly. Step three, find out what they want. And again, there’s a whole body of content surrounding each of these. I mean, a couple days training for each of these. The next step is to show them how what you have given them what they want. And again, that applies to anything, anywhere, anytime. That’s why it’s the title of the book. Then you agree on the next step. And again, each one of these can be a whole couple day of training, at least. And then at that point, you follow up because the decision is typically made in the business-to-business world. Decision to buy is typically made when you’re not there. So, you follow up and leverage satisfaction with this, which is something salespeople often neglect to do, but to leverage satisfaction into additional opportunities, either internal or external. And then you know what? You’re back where you started from. So that’s the process. That’s the process that an individual salesperson uses to relate and sell anybody, anything. You have to do all those things regardless. So now back to the question of filling up your pipeline. It depends on your sales situation. There are some situations where you’re constantly looking for new customers, but I’ve had a number of clients who everybody knows all the customers already. There’s not an issue of finding new customers because they know them all in the industry that they’re in. So, it really depends. A lot of those very specific things depend on the individual industry and your sales process, your specific sales process. [4:41]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So how do you make your prospects or your clients comfortable with you? What are some of your tricks?
Dave Kahle: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I, you know, I guess I’m a little uncomfortable with the word tricks. I would say, you know, tactics, but, but of course, uh, there’s, you know, this is, this is an area that’s been researched and studied for a long time. And, and there’s a whole, I mean, there’s a whole lot of things like number one, you know, this is so often, uh, overlooked and that is to make a good first impression, you know, to look like you, to look like you’re someone or sound like you’re someone that people can talk to and relate to. So that’s step one. And then there are so many things like, for example, how you dress, you know, the state of your dress, you should, and I have a rule, you should dress like your customer, only a little better. You know, so if you’re wearing, if you’re a man wearing a suit and tie, calling on farmers, I mean, your suit and tie is separating you from connecting with that farmer, from making that customer comfortable with you. So, you dress like the customer only a little bit better. And that’s the rule for everybody. And then, you know, there’s sharing, I like to say share something personal, you know, because when you share something personal and unique about yourself, it breaks the barriers between you and the customer. So, it forces the customer to see you as a human being and not just a role player. You know, you’re not just a salesperson, you’re a real person. [6:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Dave Kahle: And then of course, and this was subject to one of my books, it’s called Question Your Way to Sales Success. One way is the depth and detail of your questions. It has a lot to do with how you make people comfortable with you. And again, there’s all kinds of things. So typically, in this body of content that we’re talking about here, there’s the whole idea of matching personality styles, reading personality styles, and people use the DISC format, you know, DSE. And so matching or something I call the chameleon salesperson, changing your style to fit the style of the person that you’re working with. So, I mean, you know, there’s, again, that’s a very specific, well -researched, powerful strategy that can be applied over time. I mean, you learn to do that over time. So that’s just the beginning of what is just a whole lot of strategies and tactics and habits that can be developed to make the person comfortable with you. [7:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. You know, I, I love that you brought up DISC and matching your prospects or client style. And that’s why I find sales so fascinating because you must become more like them and be less of you. Right. And you must figure it out as soon as possible. Yeah. In a conversation. Huh? Um, you are a big believer in investing in sales managers. Why is that important?
Dave Kahle: Yes. Yeah. Because one of the things I do for a living is I work with sales forces from the top down. So, the chief sales officer or the CEO, whoever is the chief sales decision maker. And typically, we look at the system first and arrange for changes to be made in the structure of the sales system. So, things like compensation plans and does your compensation plan reward the people for doing what you want them to do? Typically, it doesn’t. And typically, the decisions that have been made about structure are decisions that have been made in an earlier generation and people have them, they don’t even know why they have it. So first we work with structure and then we work with the sales managers because the sales managers, their routines, and the things that they do with their salespeople have a tremendous impact on what the salesperson does. So first the structure, then the sales managers, and then finally we work with the sales team itself to instill some of the behaviors that we’re talking about here. So, the sales managers are the in -between step between management and salespeople. [9:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, huh. Talk about your sales management system.
Dave Kahle: Hmm. Yeah. So, so this is a system we’ve created over the years, and you know, we’ve taught it to over 2 ,400 sales managers. We have it. We have two cohorts going on right now. It’s a, it’s a, it’s an eight-part, eight module courses. And people, people take the coursework online and then we get together for a zoom meeting with all, with all the people in the course. And we keep it. We keep it no more than 15 in each group so that people can relate to one another and talk with one another and so on. But it instills a system for sales management because what the sales manager does and what he requires and the kind of relationship that he has with his people is just incredibly important. So, we have created a system. We instill the system, say, do these things. And we have a whole series of what I call best, the best practices of the best sales managers that we teach sales managers in the system. [10:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. You also mentioned you believe that there are principles or practices that will make the greatest impact on a person’s sales performance. What are they?
Dave Kahle: Yes. Well, you know, so I’m asking, I’m often asked, Dave, is there, is there one, if there’s only one thing you could do with a business-to-business Salesforce to improve their sales, what would it be? And I answer typically there’s, there’s two things, but the number one thing, you know, if there’s only one place, I can make some changes in a sales team’s behavior and their routines. The number one thing I would do now, again, we’re talking about business-to-business salespeople. The number one thing I would do would be to teach them how to rank and prioritize their accounts based on their potential. And it sounds so simple. Doesn’t everybody do that? No, no, they don’t. They go where it’s comfortable. They go where people are calling them. Instead of doing a real formal, and again, we have a system that we teach people to do, but it begins with looking for two issues. And one is what I call partner ability. So, we rate every prospect and every customer on their partner ability, which is subjective. It’s who the customer is, not how big they are. And then number two, we look for something we call QPC, which is Quantified purchasing capacity and that one says if they bought everything, they could from me in the next 12 months How much would that be? So, we create we create some boundaries around that number so we can compare one to the other Because we know we’re talking about again everything if they bought everything, they could for me in the next 12 months How much would it be? So, it’s an annual purchase and We take both those we turn those into numbers, so there’s a number for QPC and a number for partner ability, we put them together and the highest ranking are the highest potential. I mean, it’s straightforward, although there’s quite a bit of detail to it, but it’s straightforward. And the issue is, and again, the biggest issue is getting people to understand we’re ranking prospects and customers based on their potential, not on their history. And a lot of salespeople just really have a hard time getting their heads around that. [13:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Dave Kahle: Because if I ask, if I ask, show me your best accounts, everyone will go give me a computer printout, show me how much they bought last year. And I would say, well, that’s fine, that’s fine, but nobody cares. That’s not the question. The question is not how much they bought last year. The question is how much could they buy this year? That’s a whole different question. And it gets people thinking about the future, not the past. So, there’s a whole lot of stuff around that. But I will say this, when we instill that system of ranking and prioritizing your accounts, and people do it. Typically we see dramatic impacts on performance within six months and the most common, I know this is going to sound crazy, the most common testimonial that I get from people who’ve done this, you know, used our system for a couple years, the most common thing I hear, and you’re not going to believe this, but the most common thing I hear is triple, triple. Dave, we haven’t increased our business by 15 % or 20, we’ve tripled it. This is the single most impactful, most powerful practice to instill in a business-to-business sales force that will get the biggest bang for the buck. [14:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. But how do you figure out what a company is going to purchase in the 12 months? How do you do that?
Dave Kahle: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, well, the first group, first, the simplest, sometimes the simplest ideas are the best, you know, you ask, you ask now, now, and, you know, some people won’t tell you because they don’t know or they don’t think, you know, but when you ask, you’ll probably knock off about 50 % of them. Okay. So, what do you, so what do you do with the other 50 %? Well, you, you, you get some measurable number in that organization that you can use to compare with them with something else. So, it could, and it’s almost anything, you know, so it could be numbers of employees. So, here’s a manufacturer of X with 200 employees. And here’s a manufacturer of X, same thing with a hundred employees. You know, the hundreds number, the 200, you can, you just do a little formula, you know, and you put some number on it. You know, for here’s an example. So, I have worked with a number of HVAC distributors. So, they’re selling. There’s selling to the people who fix your air conditioning furnace. So, if you say how much are you going to buy this year, how much will you buy in total of this category? And they say, well, I don’t know. You say, OK, how many trucks do you have on the road? Because there is a number for trucks. So, if they say, well, we have 15 trucks. And you know that every truck equals $50 ,000, just 15 times 50. And you got it. There it is. So, there’s almost always some collectible, accessible measurement that you can use and put a formula on it. And again, the formula’s gotta take a little work, but you create the formula, put it on some measurement, and there you go. [16:00]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, you know, let’s talk about virtual selling because that’s the way the world has become. I think it’s here to stay. What are your thoughts on that?
Dave Kahle: Yeah Absolutely, it’s here to stay and it’s growing and it has and it required it requires Not necessarily something new but the salespeople who are selling virtue have to be better much better for for example You cannot make an appointment just to talk with somebody on a zoom call and not be thoroughly prepared You know like so the pressure? to be thoroughly prepared so you’re not wasting time looking foolish on a Zoom call is far greater than if you stop by, you’re just going to stop by and see them and sometimes you’re not fully prepared, but you cannot do that on a Zoom call. So, you must be, the pressure to be prepared, well, it was always there. Now it’s increased by a multiple. So, number one, they must be far more prepared. You know, with agendas, objectives of every sales call. Like that’s always been a best practice, but a lot of people have ignored it. You can’t ignore that anymore. And so, you know, so that’s a big one. And then there’s lots of things that kind of fall underneath that things that you need to do when you’re selling virtually that you don’t necessarily need to pay that much attention to when you’re selling live. [17:31]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, I never thought of it that way. Are you a big fan of scripts in sales?
Dave Kahle: Yeah. You know, I’m a fan of what I call snippets. So, snippets are pieces of conversation that you use repeatedly. And you take the time to prepare them and do them as well as you can. And then you memorize them. So, things like, I mean, you know, the best example is probably what we’ve all talked about an elevator speech. Okay, so this is who you are, what your company is, why the customer should care. And so, you’re going to say that, you know, you’re going to use that piece of conversation hundreds of times. So why not prepare it? Why not sit down, put it together as best you can and then memorize it. And then when somebody says, hi, so what do you do? It comes out in a, in a powerful confident way because you prepare to be forehand so snippets of Conversation that you find yourself using over and over again those things ought to be prepared Memorized and used over and over and so I so I believe in snippets not necessarily scripts. [18:57]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, I’m in your corner and I think the key is once you really, if you’re saying the same thing repeatedly, it becomes a part of you. You’re not reading anything and it also grounds you, right? So, you’re not winging the conversation. Dave, I can’t believe we’re up in time already. You are fascinating. What is the one takeaway you want to leave the audience with?
Dave Kahle: Everybody can sell better if you choose to. You can. There are principles and practices that have been proven to help people sell better and everybody can. [19:44]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, I agree with you again, 100%. So how can my audience find you?
Dave Kahle: Go to my website, https://www.davekahle.com/. And we’ve got bunches and bunches of resources, free resources, and we do webinars and just all kinds of stuff there. But the starting point is just the front page of DaveKale .com. And click on stuff that you’re interested in. For example, I do a weekly, what I call an E -zine called Sell Better. It goes to thousands of business-to-business salespeople and their bosses every week. So, you can sign up for that. I do podcast shows a little different. I do a 10-minute sort of lesson every week. And so, you know, there’s all kinds of stuff like that. Just go to the website page and connect with something and take it from there. [20:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Hey folks, you heard it right from the expert here. Reach out to Dave, take advantage of his resources. Let’s all learn how to sell better, you know, each and every day. Dave, thanks so much for spending time with us. Again, you’re entertaining. And to all of you out there, I wish you an amazing sales day. Until next time, go get going. Reach out to Dave. Take care. [21:15]
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 9, 2024 | Podcast
About Craig Lowder: Craig Lowder is the Founder and President of the Main Spring Sales Group, a specialized client acquisition consultancy focused on creating significant, predictable and sustainable sales growth for successful Financial Advisors, Consultants and Business Leaders making a 6-7 Figure Income seeking a strategic senior-level sales executive on a part-time, contract basis to develop and execute sales strategy, including sales process development, performance management systems, and ensure sales execution. With a 30-year track record of helping business owners and sales teams achieve their goals, as author of two highly-rated books, Smooth Selling Forever and Trusted Advisor Confidential℠, and as Founder and President of the Main Spring Sales Group, Craig has learned that success in sales comes down to three things: process, teamwork and access to experience that shortens the learning curve. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Craig.
In this episode, Nancy and Craig discuss the following:
- Craig’s journey into sales
- The importance of understanding buyer journeys and aligning sales strategies accordingly
- The specifics of Craig’s target industries
- The value of choosing the right fit for sales roles within organizations
- Assessments in hiring salespeople: value or harm?
- Exploration of Craig’s new book “Trusted Advisor Confidential”
- Recommendations on maintaining a healthy sales funnel
- Increasing importance and the shift in buyer behavior towards virtual selling
Key Takeaways:
- The basis of selling is understanding the person that you’re talking to from a professional as well as a personal level so that you can communicate with them effectively.
- A professionally statistically valid assessment helps you to determine whether what you’re looking at is real.
- We were going towards virtual selling prior to COVID and COVID was just like the spark plug that initiated the change.
- If you think effective virtual selling is a 20-to-30-minute conversation at max, maybe 40, but the shorter the better.
“I have not found a company yet that has a defined, documented sales recruiting process. Step by step: what are the steps, who’s involved, what are the desired outcomes? So, number one: having a documented sales hiring process. Number two: developing filtering questions based on the characteristics that you’re seeking, so that you can also build an interview scorecard, which will tell you whether they’re a good fit for your organization.” – CRAIG
“I’ve been on a four-decade journey of being a trusted advisor, a salesperson, a business development person, a new client acquisition person. And I saw a huge gap out there for individuals who are in business. The only way that they can earn a living is by eating what they sell. Unfortunately, whether they’re financial advisors, commercial bankers, insurance brokers, consultants, coaches, or even marketing firms, they’re very, very good at delivery, but they’re not very competent or competent in developing new clients, having a process to do that. And with those, in many cases, particularly those who have letters after their name (PhD, JD, even MBA, I can say that because I have one of those), they go, “No, no, no, selling is too far below me.” So, in the book, we don’t use the word selling, but that’s really what it is. If you were to ask every one of them, “Would you like to have more of the right fit clients?” Unanimously, they’re going to say, “Yes.” Well, as you and I know, that’s technically business development and social selling. But it’s like taking the curse off the call by talking about client acquisition. So, trusted advisor confidentiality is about communicating to them what are the six stars (and we’re using that in celestial terms) that they need to follow to successively build a book of business filled with right-fit clients and significantly increase their personal income. And those stars include: targeting, messaging, sales process mapping, establishing sales success standards, effective generation, and having a healthy funnel.” – CRAIG
“Well, the six stars are developed in a hierarchical fashion. You have to have a good target audience and you have to have a message that resonates with them, and you have to have a lead conversion process that mirrors how they buy. So, it really all starts with targeting the right prospects, the right audience so that you can get the most out of your marketing activities as well as your limited sales time.” – CRAIG
Connect with Craig Lowder:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking again with Craig Lowder, author of Smooth Selling Forever, a sales effectiveness expert with a 30 plus year track record of helping owners of small and mid -sized businesses achieve their sales goals. He is also the founder and president of MainSpring Sales Group, which assists companies needing a strategic sales leader on a part -time contract or project basis to develop and execute a sales strategy, develop sales process and performance management systems, and ensure sales execution. Craig has worked with over 60 companies and increased first year annual sales from 21 to 142%. Great job, Craig. Welcome back to the show.
Craig Lowder: Well, thank you, Nancy. It’s an honor and a privilege to be here talking to a fellow sales professional. [1:24]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, we both love selling and I know I asked you this in our last podcast, but let’s, you know, review it again. Why do we love it so much?
Craig Lowder: from my perspective, I’m basically a teacher. It’s all about helping others and creating life abundance for my client. And everything starts with what we can call selling business development, new client acquisition, but helping identify the undiscovered, unknown needs that a business has in growing is the beginning of the selling process and matching the needs of that organization, that individual with some options so that they can take actual steps is what selling is all about. And selling, I think a lot of people that are not professional salespeople, and even there are some that are professional salespeople, think that sales can be a little bit manipulative. It should not be. It should be going down the road in the same direction at the same speed with your prospect and trying to define a solution that fully addresses their specific needs. [2:56]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. How did you get involved in sales?
Craig Lowder: Oh, gee. You know, it’s really a long story. You know, I was a wannabe professional athlete that just didn’t have the talent. But that’s all about selling the coaches or whatever on your ability to get the job done. But when I went to college, and I wanted to become a psychologist and I found there was too much gray area for me after two years. And I sat back, and I started reading some books on marketing and selling. And if you remember the old, old, old Ford commercials where the light bulb went on, the light bulb went on. And I said, this is what I want to do because I really wanted to be a teacher, Nancy. And at that time, there was no opportunity to get into teaching back in the mid-seventies. [3:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, okay. And then, so you opted for sales.
Craig Lowder: I opted for sales, and I did sales and marketing. And as we say to many of our clients, we went to the dark side. We moved away from marketing and moved out in front of the customer with the whole idea of help identifying needs and providing solutions to those needs. And I found it extremely rewarding. [4:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, and you probably used the two years that you studied psychology also in your sales skills. Wouldn’t you agree?
Craig Lowder: Oh, absolutely. The basis of selling is understanding the person that you’re talking to from a professional as well as a personal level so that you can communicate with them effectively. And when I say effectively, there’s one definition that somebody shared with me years ago, and it’s always stuck with me. Communication equals the response that you receive. And if you don’t receive the response that you’re seeking, the communication may have not been there. [5:11]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. Now when you describe the sales process, you use the steps assess, design, deploy, and execute. Tell us more about that.
Craig Lowder: Sure, thank you for asking, Nancy. That is really a closed loop system and everything that we do and everything that any of us do in making an informed decision, we must first assess our situation, design a solution, deploy that solution, and make sure that it’s executed effectively. And then we because the process is an iterative process, we should be always on the look -up, constantly looking for seeking ways to improve or enhance the process. [6:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. How do you execute it properly? Like what are the things that need to be put in place to ensure that execution is correct?
Craig Lowder: Oh, that’s really a great question, Nancy. And too many sellers are looking at, well, this is what we sell, and this is how we want it sold, as opposed to starting with your buying audience and identifying the steps that they’re going to go through in terms of making an informed decision for them. And that’s what I refer to as a buyer journey. And that’s where we start in developing a sales process. So, what is the buyer journey of your target audience? What steps are they going to go through? Once we define that, now we can build a process that mirrors how they buy. [7:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, interesting. Now you play in the small and mid -sized businesses. Do you target certain industries or are your industry agnostic?
Craig Lowder: Nancy, it’s really all industries apply, the principles apply, they’re executed differently. But my focus is B2B. I do a lot of manufacturing, a lot of distribution companies, and believe it or not, although they spent 20 years in professional services, application software, I do some work in that area, but most of those companies are too early stage to really take advantage of what I do. My typical audience is anywhere from five to, quite frankly, 125 million with a sweet spot somewhere between 10 and 50. [7:52]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, wow. And like, what are their frustrations? So, I’m speaking with a prospect, and I hear them complaining about ABC. What am I going to hear from them that would make me think of you or have them come to you?
Craig Lowder: Typically, what they will say is, our sales are not growing as we anticipated or expected. And so, we’re not generating predictable and sustainable results. That’s one area. They don’t have a system and strategy. And secondly, they say, gosh. The world has changed and my salespeople, my sales leader is not functioning in the way that they used to, which means their biggest challenge is recruiting and retaining right fit members of their sales team. [8:53]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. You know, which brings up a very good point, having the right people in an organization will make or break its success. So how do people recognize that salesperson A is a fit, but salesperson B is not? What do you suggest companies do?
Craig Lowder: Well, that’s a great question because I have not found a company yet that has a defined, documented sales recruiting process. Step by step, what are the steps, who’s involved, what are the desired outcomes? So, number one, having a documented sales hiring process. Number two, developing filtering questions based on the characteristics that you’re speaking are seeking so that you can also build an interview scorecard which will tell you whether they’re a good fit for your organization. A case in point. I had a client a number of years ago that sold banners and flags and their salespeople were expected to close 20 plus transactions a week in the range of 500 to $1 ,000. The owner of the company brought somebody in that sold MRI systems. And I think you know where I’m going with this, Nancy. The owner said, I love this individual. He dresses great. He’s so articulate. Wow. And I said, go through your scorecard. And he went through an agreement and goes, he’s not a fit. And I said, that’s right. He’s not a fit. MRI systems, if he sells one or two in a year in the sales process is 12 months, 24 months long. He’s not going to create enough activity for you to generate the type of sales that you’re accustomed to generating. So, it’s not that he’s a bad person. He’s just not a right fit for your role. [10:59] The other thing, Nancy, I go ahead. []
Nancy Calabrese: You know that I had. No, no, no, go, go finish.
Craig Lowder: I was going to say the other things that I find that most companies don’t do, they do not know how to effectively conduct reference checks. Or they will just give up and say, well, they’re useful. Any sales candidate can come up with two or three shills that they know that’ll say nice things about them. And I say, nay, nay, nay, during the interviewing process, as you go through your discovery, you’re either seeking to validate what you’ve learned that’s positive, and you’re also speaking to fill in the gaps where things are missing. So, when you’re doing reference checks based on your interviewing, I may say to you, Nancy, I’d like to talk to your superior at Ajax. I’d like to talk to a customer at that company. I’d like to talk to a peer or a subordinate. And very quickly, you will be able to ascertain whether they can come through or not. Too many times do I hear Oh, I had a great relationship with my boss. I left because I was looking to have the opportunity to be promoted. When I’ve asked him to talk to that superior, oh, and this is a real-life case. Oh, I don’t know where to find her. She’s retired. Well, I thought you said you had a good relationship with this person. Are they on Linkbook or face, LinkedIn, or Facebook? Well, I really don’t know. So, suddenly, you’re starting to see some bad signals there. [12:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep. Red flags.
Craig Lowder: Red flags, bad vibes, yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. And do you believe in assessments before you hire a salesperson?
Craig Lowder: Absolutely, Nancy, and I know you and I both believe that’s the case. There are so many variables. A professionally statistically valid assessment helps you to determine what you’re looking at is real. In fact, right before we got on the call here, I have a client that’s looking to hire a salesperson. They took the sales assessment that I use, and I gave them feedback. This is a great transactional competitive salesperson, but they’re not best suited for a multiple buying influence long -term sale. [13:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh, interesting.
Craig Lowder: So, as you know, it’s just one other point that you need to check to make sure that you’re making a right hire. And the old philosophy is married slowly, is really, important here. And fortunately, too many people say, I really like this person. They worked for a competitor in our industry. They probably really know their stuff and you find out they’re looking for a reason, and in most cases, it’s related to non -performance. [14:06]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. Well, let’s talk about your new book, Trusted Advisor Confidential. What’s it about and what motivated you to write it?
Craig Lowder: Well, thank you for asking. You know, I’ve been on a four-decade journey of being a trusted advisor, a salesperson, a business development person, a new client acquisition person. And I saw a huge gap out there for individuals who are in business. And the only way that they can earn a living is by eating what they sell. And unfortunately, whether they’re financial advisors,
commercial bankers, insurance brokers, consultants, coaches, and even marketing firms, they’re very, very good at delivery, but they’re not very competent or competent in developing new clients, having a process to do that. And with those, in many cases, particularly those who have letters after their name, PhD, JD, even MBA, I can say that because I have one of those. They go, no, no, no, selling is too far below me. So, in the book, we don’t use the word selling, but that’s really what it is. If you were to ask every one of them, would you like to have more of the right fit clients? Unanimously, they’re going to say, yes. Well, as you and I know, that’s technically business development and social selling. But it’s like taking the curse off the call by talking client acquisition. So, trusted advisor confidential is about communicating to them what are the six stars, and we’re using that in celestial terms that they need to follow to successively build a book of business filled with right fit clients and significantly increase their personal income. And those stars include one, targeting, two, messaging, three, sales process mapping, four, establishing sales success standards. Five, effectively generation. And six, is having a healthy funnel. [16:26]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. So how do you, how do you, well, what do you recommend people do to have a healthy funnel?
Craig Lowder: Well, the six stars are developed in a hierarchical fashion. You have to have a good target audience and you have to have a message that resonates with them, and you have to have a lead conversion process that mirrors with how they buy. So, it really all starts with targeting the right prospects, the right audience, so that you can get the most out of your marketing activities as well as your limited sales time. [17:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, wow, really cool. And you know, I want to wrap this up, but let’s just mention virtual selling, the world in which we live. I think it’s going to be around for a long time. What do you have to say about it?
Craig Lowder: Nancy, it’s going to be around for as far as we can see in our lives. And we were going towards virtual selling prior to COVID. And COVID was just like the spark plug that initiated the change. I was very blessed to be published in Forbes right after COVID started. And the writer came back to me and says, oh look at the article that McKinsey came out with. They’re saying the same thing that you are. And I said, I stand corrected. I’m saying the same things that they are saying. It’s not the other way around. They know what they’re talking about. But what we’re seeing is, and this is, here’s the insidious thing, Nancy. It’s being driven by the buyers. The buyers are saying, salespeople suck up too much of my time. [18:19]
Nancy Calabrese: Hehehe. Right.
Craig Lowder: The cordialities are too much. I cannot get all the buying influences in the room. It’s logistically impossible. It takes too much time. Bottom line, we cannot make the best-informed decisions for our business. So virtual selling facilitates our ability to make the best decisions in a shorter timeframe involving the right people who need to be involved in the process and if you think about this, when I teach virtual selling, I used to ask the question, is virtual selling new? And everyone would say yes. And I’d say, well, let’s think back. Have you thinking of a Sears catalog, newspaper ads, Ron Pappil and Vegematic? Those are all virtual selling. [19:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh my god. Vegematic. Oh, God.
Craig Lowder: So, it’s always been there, but in a B2B environment, more and more buyers are insisting that they have the opportunity to buy virtually. And if you think about more millennials getting into the market where they’re making informed buying decisions, most of them are focused on doing their research online and meeting or conversing virtually, not in -person meetings. [19:48]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. Hey, I think, you know, virtual selling is fabulous. It saves you so much time travel to and from. And you can do it out of the comfort of your home or out of your office. And you still accomplish the same thing.
Craig Lowder: And we have. Absolutely, it must be structured differently. If you think effective virtual selling is a 20-to-30-minute conversation at max, maybe 40, but the shorter the better. So, you have more meetings, shorter meetings. What that does, it puts the onus on the seller to be well prepared in setting out the agenda in conjunction with the buying audience and making sure that they deliver on the agreed upon outcomes for that conversation. And for me as a… Go ahead. [20:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, Craig, our time is up. I hate to stop this, but how can my people find you? You’re fascinating.
Craig Lowder: Well, my wife would beg differently. She says I should be on the stage and there’s one leaving in 20 minutes. But the best way to reach me is you can call me at 630 -649 -4943 or you can email me at Craig, C -R -A -I -G, at Smooth S -M -O -O -T -H, Selling S -E -L -L -I -N -G forever, f -o -r -e -v -e -r dot com. [21:20]
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise once again. You’re a great guest and audience. Take advantage of this man’s knowledge and wealth of knowledge. You know, if you are struggling with finding the right salespeople, if you’re not hitting quota, he is the go -to guy. So, thanks again, Craig, for being on the show. And for everyone out there, make it an awesome sales day. [21:51]
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 5, 2024 | Podcast
About Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Natalie Doyle Oldfield is the President of Success Through Trust, which works with some of the world’s most successful companies to increase sales, become more profitable, and increase customer trust and loyalty. She is also a keynote speaker, trainer, and thought leader. Natalie is the author of The Power of Trust: How Top Companies Build, Manage and Protect It. Success Through Trust has developed a methodology and award-winning programs based on this research. The book was named one of the Top 5 business books of 2017 by the Chronicle Herald. Natalie was named a Top Thought Leader in Trust by Trust Across America Trust Around the World in 2018 and 2017. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Natalie.
In this episode, Nancy and Natalie discuss the following:
- The fundamental importance of trust in business relationships
- Natalie’s experience as a chief marketing officer during the 2008 financial crisis
- The role of trust in business-to-business transactions
- The outcome of Natalie’s research: Trust is a fundament of every buying decision in business-to-business environments
- Why customers are willing to pay more for products and services from trusted companies
Key Takeaways:
- I created a proprietary framework and a model to help people build these relationships of trust with their customers and colleagues.
- Trust is what the most successful companies have in common.
- People and companies that are focused on building relationships of trust are the ones that are going to be most successful.
- Everybody can learn how to build a relationship or strengthen a relationship of trust and we can all cultivate and develop these skills.
“There is nothing more important than trust. And if we think about it, every single decision we make comes down to trust. First, we decide: do we trust? Then, we decide: are we going to listen? Afterward, we decide if we’re going to have a conversation. Following that, we decide if we’re going to look at someone’s capabilities. We make these decisions subconsciously. In fact, in every business and personal relationship, trust plays a crucial role. Because I know most of your listeners are either working in a business, own a business, or are leaders in a business, trust is involved in every single relationship we have. It’s the most important question everyone has.” – NATALIE
“I became deeply intrigued by how customers decide to buy in a business-to-business environment that I went back to school. I did graduate research, which led me to the science of trust. My master’s thesis revolved around how people decide to buy in such environments. I found out quite quickly that it all starts with trust. First, we decide to trust, then we decide to buy. And you know, lonely wolf, there’s a wonderful, very, very strong, much stronger than when I started 10 years ago, business case for learning and cultivating and developing relationships of trust. And, you know, worldwide, as we know, people buy from people they trust. Well, the fact is that 80% of us buy from a company or an organization we trust. And we pay more. We pay more when we trust. If I’m going to go out for a coffee, I’m going to pay more for a Starbucks coffee because I trust that coffee. I trust the company. I know they know how to create and make an amazing coffee and it’s consistent. It tastes the same just like we know in business-to-business environments companies that will provide us with services we trust, or advice we trust, or products that are safe and secure to use, or are going to do what they say they’re going to do. So that’s how I got into it.” – NATALIE
“We all decide to trust. We make, as I mentioned, a subconscious decision. And we make that decision based on another person’s communication, how they behave, and how they service us. So, it really comes down to these three components, Nancy. So, when you and I are buying a product or service, we’re evaluating another person. And when we say we trust a company, well, companies, as we know, are made up of people. So as an example, when we are buying, say, professional services, like an engineering service, design services to ref- let’s say we’re going to renovate a factory, we would and we’re the business owner and we own this plant, this factory. Well, we would most likely talk to a few different engineering firms to get a design. And we would have conversations and as you know, because you know, this is what you share with your audience, it all comes down to conversations and connecting with people.” – NATALIE
Connect with Natalie Doyle Oldfield:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Natalie Doyle Oldfield, the president of Success Through Trust, Inc. and creator of the Client Trust Index. This index measures true customer sentiment and gives you customer insight in a quantifiable score. She has 25 years of experience in IT and has trained hundreds of technical team members to become trusted advisors to their clients. Natalie is also the author of The Power of Trust, How Top Companies Build, Manage, and Protect It. She was recently recognized as one of Canada’s most inspiring women entrepreneurs and has been named as one of the world’s top thought leaders in trust. Welcome to the show, Natalie. I trust this is going to be a great one, no pun intended.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Great to be here, Nancy. I’m so happy to be here. I know we tried to do this before, so this is so exciting to be here today with you and your listeners. [1:37]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, thanks for being patient, by the way. And I want to go back on being named one of the world’s top thought leaders in trust. Congratulations. How did that come about? And what did you do to earn it?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Well, thank you very much. I was named by an association called Trust Across America, Trust Around the World. And I was named actually for five consecutive years in a row. And each year I had a colleague, or a client nominate me. And focus 100% of my business on helping business owners grow by earning their customers and their employee’s unshakable trust. And I created a proprietary framework and a model, Nancy, to help people build these relationships of trust with their customers and colleagues. And I believe it’s this model that’s, you know, based on science and evidence and all this academic research and working with lots of folks and business owners around the world that makes me one of you know the people that they have awarded this to and it’s a great honor to be named one of the top world thought leaders in trust and yeah. [3:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. Well, that’s a huge bravo to you and a huge accomplishment. I know you’ve said if there’s no trust, there’s no sale. So why is trust so important, especially as it relates to business?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Nancy, there is nothing more important than trust. And if we think about it, you know, your every single decision we make comes down to trust. First, we decide, do we trust? Then we decide, are we going to listen? Then we decide if we’re going to have a conversation. Then we’re going to decide if we’re going to look at someone’s capabilities. We decide this subconsciously. In fact, in every business relationship and personal relationship but in every business relationship because I know most of your listeners are working at either in a business or own a business or a leader in a business it’s in its involved in every single relationship, we have it’s the most important question everyone has. [4:24]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, I’m just thinking, I certainly don’t want to be around or be associated with people I don’t trust. So, you know, I guess my question is, what drew you to the science of trust? And why did you decide to focus on it?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: What a great question. Well, the short and long answer is I spent about 25 years working in various roles in companies that were either in product management or marketing or communications and in sales in a variety of different industries, but all in the IT industry to support people in financial services or education or hospitality. And what I saw was that the most successful companies all had something in common, Nancy, and I didn’t really know what it was. And several years ago in 2008, I was asked to take over while chief marketing officer for a company, a sales role. And I really was quite nervous about doing that, hesitant, let’s say. And didn’t really want to do it. Um, even though I love talking to customers and I love helping customers solve their problems. I’ve always loved that. And I’m curious and always want to help people grow their companies. So, um, eventually I did decide to take over and, um, then the market crashed in September 2008, and I was a month into this new role, and I really wanted to be successful in this new role and looked around and asked the folks that I knew who were very successful in successful companies, how is it that you sell? Like here I am in charge of sales, and I never did have any sales training. And all of them said, basically just keep focusing on the customer relationships, just keep providing value and do whatever you can do to help them out. So, we did, the entire team did, and then within 30-60 days, our sales started going back up. Well, and this was quite significant, Nancy, because our software we were selling to, the hospitality industry, and that industry, just like what happened during the pandemic, was really hard hit with the financial crisis. In the B2B world, people weren’t going to conventions and conferences, they stop traveling. That’s what they do when they cut expenses often. So fast forward, I thought, okay, well, we did all this, and it worked. We actually, not only did we retain customers, but we won some new customers by just focusing everyone on the team. I got so interested in how is it that customers decide to buy in a business-to-business environment that I actually went back to school. [7:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: And I did graduate research. And this is how I got into the science of trust. And I did a master’s in, and a thesis was all around, how is it in a business-to-business environment do people decide to buy? And I found out quite quickly, it all starts with trust. First, we decide to trust, then we decide to buy. And you know, lonely wolf, there’s a wonderful, very, very strong, much stronger than when I started 10 years ago, business case for learning and cultivating and developing relationships of trust. And, you know, worldwide, as we know, people buy from people they trust. Well, the fact is 80% of us buy from a company or an organization we trust. And we pay more. We pay more when we trust. If I’m going to go out for a coffee, I’m going to pay more for a Starbucks coffee because I trust that coffee. I trust the company. I know they know how to create and make an amazing coffee and it’s consistent. It tastes the same just like we know in business-to-business environment companies that will provide us with services we trust, or advice we trust, or products that are safe and secure to use, or are going to do what they say they’re going to do. So that’s how I got into it. [9:15]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, but what exactly is the science behind trust? I’m confused by that.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Well, we all decide to trust. We make, as I mentioned, a subconscious decision. And we make that decision based on another person’s communication, how they behave, and how they service us. So, it really comes down to these three components, Nancy. So, when you and I are buying a product or service, we’re evaluating another person. And when we say we trust a company, well, companies, as we know, are made up of people. So as an example, when we are buying, say, professional services, like an engineering service, design services to ref- let’s say we’re going to renovate a factory, we would and we’re the business owner and we own this plant, this factory. Well, we would most likely talk to a few different engineering firms to get a design. And we would have conversations and as you know, because you know, this is what you share with your audience, it all comes down to conversations and connecting with people. [10:49]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: And in order to connect, we have to trust. So, I’ll give you a quick example. I worked with, I worked with, I would say, medium-sized engineering firm in the US. And they focused, they do focus on doing design for factories and for, you know, they put in they have a lot of industrial engineers and mechanical engineers, and they focus on renovating plants and factories. And the owner, the senior managing partner of this firm, came to me and he said, you know, I’ve been getting a lot of complaints from my CFO, the head of finance, that our sales are down. I said, okay, your sales are down. And we’re not getting repeat business. See, typically what happens when we trust someone, we get repeat business, and we get referrals. So, he said, you know, someone suggested, another one of my clients, actually, Nancy, suggested we talk. I said, okay, well, tell me a little bit more. He said, well, here’s the problem. He said, our sales are down from our long-term customers. And I said, well, why do you think that is? He said, well, I don’t know. So, I said, well, let’s talk about your team because it all comes down to- I’ll share an example with you. I have a client, his name’s Richard, and he’s a managing partner of an engineering firm that focuses on renovating and refurbishing and bringing factories up to date to make them more efficient. And he shared with me that his sales were down and that he didn’t understand why they weren’t getting and keeping repeat customers. You see, in their world of professional services, a very large part of their revenue comes from retaining their customers, just doing more projects with the same customers. So, I said to him, it is. So, I said to him, well, tell me about your team. And the reason I said that, as you can imagine, is because trust is built in interactions with people. Companies are made up of people. So, he said, well, I have a great team. I have a lot of incredibly talented mechanical engineers, talented electrical engineers, talented project managers, junior design people, junior engineers, and they do an amazing job. I said, great. So, what else about them? Do they build confidence in the customers, in the conversations, and in the meetings? He said, well, no. He said that’s a real challenge for me. He said, you know, they’re so skilled, but they don’t know how to build relationships and they don’t know how to manage client expectations. And they’re not great communicators. He said, so, you know, not only are the sales down, he said, but he said, you know, I see new leads, expensive leads slipping away. So that was an issue. So, I said, okay, well, this is where we’re going to start. [14:12]
Nancy Calabrese: Right? Hmm.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: We’re going to talk about how to reskill and teach your team how to build unshakable trust with your customers, because when you have unshakable trust, Nancy, you get repeat customers and referrals all day, every day. So, Richard, the managing partner and the business partner, primary business owner, he joined this trusted leadership program that I have, an accelerator program with other business leaders and business owners. And we walk through how is it that customers, the clients decide to buy and how is it that they decide to trust. And we, he gained new tools and methodologies and then taught his team. See, when you teach your team how to build unshakable trust, they start building confidence in the customers. And it was fantastic because within weeks, I was going to say days, but really weeks. They, they started getting calls and Richard specifically said, got calls from some clients that, you know, sales were just flat and there weren’t new projects coming down the pipe. And clients were saying, you know, what’s going on with this person? What’s going on with that person? In fact, there was one guy, Matt, that was a very, you know, new junior engineer who really became a rock star because he really learned how to connect with customers. And so when you learn how to earn your customers trust, You get these referrals and the repeat business and they start talking about new projects and new referrals. And what I find so exciting is that it is a skill that can be learned, Nancy, and everybody can learn how to build a relationship or strengthen a relationship of trust. We can all cultivate and develop these skills. [16:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, how long does it take a person to really learn those skills?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Well, that’s a great question. And it depends. So, it depends. So, the, you know, some people, it’s quick, Nancy, because they realize it really starts with looking at and assessing your own trustworthiness. And it really starts with, you know, becoming self-aware how we are perceived by others, how we communicate. And so, you know, we have in all our programs, everything in all of the company programs, we have individual assessments that give people tools and ways to see what their communication style is, how, you know, what their strengths are, where the gaps are. And some people, it can take a couple of weeks. Some people, it can take hours. You know, I’m very practical, so we always have a lot of hands-on tools and assessments and exercises. And you know, it’s like any new skill. When you practice it and you focus on it and you’re deliberate, Nancy, big thing, right? It’s about being deliberately applying what you learn and practicing. We see turnarounds and complete transformations. Sometimes we, you know, I’m on a Zoom call in a program and you see the light bulb go off and the person’s changed forever. [18:31]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, wow. It’s just amazing to me. I guess it’s your mindset. You must go into this being open-minded and it’s like developing a new habit, right?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Yeah. Yes, and it’s a hundred percent mindset. It starts with that. Nancy, I’m really glad you mentioned that. And part of that mindset is, as you said, being open. And the other part is beginning with the intention that you’re going to see the best and everyone’s trying their best and that everyone can be trustworthy. You know, I would never recommend that someone go in blindly and think, oh, you know, everybody’s trustworthy. And unfortunately, I do think that people are more skeptical now, Nancy, than ever before. I really see that. And because people are more skeptical, it means our customers are more skeptical. And it means that customers are demanding more transparency, right? They have much more access to information than they ever did before. And because they’re demanding this and they want the transparency and they want to know that people are acting in their best interests, the people and the companies that are focused on building relationships of trust are the ones that are going to be most successful. [20:14]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it makes so much sense. I cannot believe we’re up in time, Natalie. This is a topic that we could go on and on about, but my biggest takeaway is trust is just critical in life. And the sooner we all master the art of building trust, the happier and more successful our lives will be, right? I mean, that’s my takeaway.
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Yeah.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah. So how can my people find you?
Natalie Doyle Oldfield: Well, my name, as I mentioned, is Natalie Doyle Oldfield. You can find me on LinkedIn at Natalie Doyle Oldfield. You can also find me on my website, which is www.successthroughtrust.com And if you go to www.successthroughtrust.com I actually have an assessment that you can download, complimentary to assess the trustworthiness of your team: https://api.leadconnectorhq.com/widget/form/e8onMX2YSfIm7b402bCi. So, there’s a number of questions there for you to go through and if you’re interested in learning more you can also sign up. I have a weekly newsletter that I send out with some information and some tips always and usually a tool or two around how to build trust and would love to hear from you. The last way you can find me is if you if you’re interested in really finding out about the science of trust and the power of trust, you can go to Amazon and find my book there, which is called, as you mentioned, The Power of Trust, How Top Companies Build, Manage and Protect It. So, lots of ways, Nancy would love to hear from you and or your listeners and continue this conversation. [22:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, listen, everyone out there, take advantage of Natalie’s generosity. I know that I’m going to get that newsletter. And it’s just in listening to you, I have a smile on my face because you get it. It’s all about trust everywhere. And as you said, it’s a more difficult time in the world these days. So, if you focus on trust, you’re focusing on something good that will make your days better. So, I want to thank everybody for taking a listen, reach out to Natalie. And again, Natalie, thanks so much for sharing your expertise. See you next time. [22:57]
by Nancy Calabrese | Apr 2, 2024 | Podcast
About Tom Ruwitch: Tom Ruwitch is the Founder of Story Power Marketing, where he helps clients discover the building blocks for prospect-focused stories. In 2001, Tom founded the email marketing software and services company MarketVolt — before most business people had even heard of email marketing. He helps execute marketing campaigns to engage with prospects, convert sales, and maximize customer relationships. He sold MarketVolt in 2019 and founded Story Power Marketing. Today, coaches, authors, and other experts hire Tom to power up their stories because most dish out the same old boring content that turns off prospects, and then they feel frustrated and stuck. So Tom helps them transform content from prospect-repelling to client-attracting, turn marketing from frustrating to fun, and convert results from subpar to superb. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Tom.
In this episode, Nancy and Tom discuss the following:
- The best thing that can happen in your content is for somebody to read it see it or hear it and think.
- Storytelling can be a really important element of the content that you put out.
- The lesson is delegate and she can tell endless anecdotes or build endless stories to deliver that.
- You have to write in your own voice, produce videos in your own voice, and tell stories that are drawn from what you discover about your prospects and your clients, not with AI.
Key Takeaways:
- I do not engage with any company for under three months, ideally six months.
- In the majority of startups and small businesses, all the sales are typically made by the founder or, in small business cases, the president or CEO of the company.
- I had always wanted to do something on my own.
- It’s interesting how you can be fueled by the sales piece and the environment in which you sell.
“And what people need to understand that they need to do with their content is they need to inform and entertain and that’s where storytelling comes in. When you deliver valuable information in a more captivating way, that’s more story powered, more entertaining, you draw people in, you make the content more relatable and you’re more likely to be the one to stand out in your niche.” – TOM
“I would say that listening and empathy are probably the most important qualities because what it’s about is not just tell, tell. This is what I know and I’m going to tell you everything I know. That’s not what it’s about. What it’s about is hearing and watching and empathizing and understanding what is it that my prospects and clients are feeling and how is it that I can transform them from a feeling of, you know, one feeling to another, from a feeling of frustration to relief, from a feeling of fright to courage, from a feeling of stuck to free. It’s almost always about emotional transformation. Even in business-to-consumer products, it’s that way. But certainly, in business to business that it’s almost always an emotional transformation and understanding and paying attention to the feelings of your prospects and clients and using that as the basis to assemble stories is what it’s all about.” – TOM
“There are businesspeople who think that somehow storytelling is not professional, or it’s beneath them, and that: “No, I’m going to write a 1500-word white paper”, or “I must be serious”. And my response is that storytelling in and of itself is not a frivolous activity. There are a lot of frivolous, meaningless silly stories that are being dished out. You know, storytelling is a big buzzword right now in marketing and online. And so, there are a lot of people who just think, oh, I’m going to tell a funny story for stories sake, and that’s going to be great. Well, no, it’s not great unless the prospect or the client can see themselves and unless there is a lesson and meaning in that story. But those who believe that I don’t like stories, or I will be considered something less than professional if I tell stories, I think are missing the point of what a good story can do. As human beings, we are naturally drawn to stories and storytellers. There are all sorts of data to show that when information is delivered via story, we’re much more likely to retain it. We’re much more likely to trust the person who delivered the information. And we’re much more likely to act on the call to action. So, you know, anyone who feels like, oh, it’s beneath me or I don’t like stories, or my audience won’t like stories, when done properly, stories sell.” – TOM
Connect with Tom Ruwitch:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today. And it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Tom Ruwitch, a consultant, content marketing expert and founder of Story Power Marketing. Tom is a digital marketing pioneer who founded the email marketing software and services company Market Vault in 2001 before most businesspeople had even heard of email marketing. Today, coaches, consultants, and other experts hire Tom to power up their stories because most dish out the same old boring content that turns off prospects and then they feel frustrated and stuck. So, Tom helps them transform content from boring to brilliant, turn marketing from frustrating to fun and convert results from pitiful to profitable. Welcome to the show, Tom, let’s get started.
Tom Ruwitch: Thank you, Nancy. [1:22]
Nancy Calabrese: Okay, just a question that comes to top of my mind. You state that most people produce boring content. Why is that? And can you give us an example of what that is?
Tom Ruwitch: Sure, sure. So, I think that this is especially true for people who sell their expertise, for people who share their expertise to serve clients, coaches, consultants, professional service providers, those sorts of folks, because the value of what they know is really, really important. So, their tendency and content are to write a blog post or put something on social or here’s what you need to know, the financial service provider. Here’s the difference between a Roth IRA and a traditional IRA, or executive coach who, here are five tips to help you delegate more effectively. It’s valuable information, but information alone is not enough. And what people need to understand that they need to do with their content is they need to inform and entertain and that’s where storytelling comes in. When you deliver valuable information in a way that is more captivating, that’s more story powered, more entertaining, you draw people in, you make the content more relatable and you’re more likely to be the one to stand out in your niche. [2:59]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Okay, well, you know, many businesspeople that I know say they don’t have an interesting story to tell. How do you respond to that?
Tom Ruwitch: Yeah. Yeah, well, the first thing is to challenge them and say, well, get back to that. You do have interesting stories to tell. We’ll work on that. The second thing that I say is let’s not focus on the story of you. Let’s focus first on the story of your prospects and your clients. What makes them tick? Because if you focus first on your prospects and clients, what’s keeping them up at night, what problems are they dealing with, what’s frustrating them, where do they want to be, what do they want to achieve, then the stories that you tell become more relatable. If you can tell stories that reflect on them, then you’ll be able to draw them in. And the best thing that can happen in your content is for somebody to read it or see it or hear it and think, wow, you really get me. [4:03]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Okay, so what I’m hearing you say is that in any kind of communication, you want to incorporate some type of story that relates to their world, is that correct?
Tom Ruwitch: Yeah, I think so. And it’s, you know, I’m not going to suggest that you always, in every piece of content you put out there must tell stories. But storytelling can be a really important element of the content that you put out.
Nancy Calabrese: Okay. Now I’ve also heard you say that storytelling does not have to be so complex. What do you mean by that?
Tom Ruwitch: Well, I think that people approach this, and they think that it’s very, very difficult. They sit in front of a blank screen, and they think once upon a time, now what? They wait for the creative juices to flow and the muse to strike. And it really isn’t an act of creative magic. It’s not as daunting as some people make it seem. It’s a process. I have a framework that I use for finding the stories that I teach. So, it’s called the plan framework. And the first letter is P. What’s the promise that you’re making to your clients, to your prospects? What’s the transformation that you’re hoping to achieve? Then there’s a lesson of some sort. There’s an idea, a tip, and those information only boring blog posts that I talked about before, it’s all lesson without necessarily the promise or the third part of the plan, the anecdote. The anecdote. If you wrap it in a story, there’s going to be a greater level of entertainment, a greater level of captivating of your prospect. And then the fourth N is next step. There always must be a next step or a call to action. And Nancy, if you’d like me to, I could share an example of how that plan framework transformed a boring piece of content for one of my clients into a story powered piece of content. [6:17]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeap, awesome!
Tom Ruwitch: Okay, I mentioned an executive coach earlier, and before she hired me, she had written a blog post all about delegation. I used that example a moment ago. And the blog post went something like this, delegation is one of the most important skills that a business manager or business leader can master to delegate properly. Here are five tips. Tip one, tip two, tip three. Boring. What we did is we talked about the prospect. We focused on the prospect. And out of that conversation came a story of a business owner who had never taken a vacation longer than a long weekend in 20 years of owning his business. And the reason he never took that vacation was because he feared that all heck would break loose if he left. He feared that people would call him while he’s away. And then when he returned, he’d have to mop up messes. He just didn’t trust his team. And she taught him how to delegate. And once she taught him how to delegate, he was able to leave the business with comfort and confidence and spend two weeks on vacation and love every minute of it. And when he returned, his employees were more fired up, more bought in, more empowered than they had been before. And so, the blog post, and it was an email and a blog post, had the subject line, how a stressed-out owner let go and got away. And it had a picture of a business owner, or a person lying on a hammock beach, sunset, she tells the story. I know this business owner who never went on vacation. Then eventually he went on vacation. What changed? He learned how to delegate. And then she goes into the same tips that were in that boring blog post, delegation tips. But now people are reading and paying attention because she shared with them a promise. I’m going to help you let go and get away. She delivered a lesson to let go and get away. You need to learn to delegate, here’s how. She wrapped it in an entertaining and relatable anecdote. And then she included a next step. Call me to have a free consultation. I can show you how to let go and get away. So much better with that plan framework promise lesson anecdote next step than trying to just write a boring old blog post here are five tips to delegate more effectively. [9:02]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, how long does it take people to kind of get that?
Tom Ruwitch: Well, again, it’s a process and a system. So, when clients work with me in my coaching programs and my masterminds or one-on-one consulting, we learn a methodical process to first discover, well, what are the promises that you’re really making? People are prone to talk about the details. I teach you how to delegate versus the promise, I’m going to help you let go, get away, less stress, more relief, those things. So, we go through a process of discovering the promise and figuring out where to go and how to really get down to that in effective ways that go beyond just pulling it from your head. And then we go through the process of defining, well, what are the lessons and the key things that you’re bringing to your audience? In other words, we step through the plan framework. And once you’ve done that, this gets back to the question you asked earlier about this doesn’t have to be so hard. Once you’ve gone through this process of what we call story discovery, you are armed with a collection of ideas that you can go back to over and over and over again. So, this executive coach, for example, she has her plan framework. She knows that the promise is let go, don’t feel stuck in the business, don’t feel like the way the worlds on your shoulders. That’s the promise, the transformation from stuck in your business to able to get away. The lesson is delegate. She can tell endless anecdotes or build endless stories to deliver that. Story number one was about that business owner who went on vacation finally. Story number two that she told was a story of herself being an employee of a boss who didn’t delegate and who was miserable and unhappy and everybody, nobody in the company had morale, high morale and nothing got done because he didn’t learn how to delegate. And when he finally learned how to delegate, so much more got done and he was such a happier business owner. That was a personal experience that she had that she was able to turn into a story. We helped another business coach who teaches the same thing, how to delegate. We actually pulled an anecdote, promise is the same, lesson is the same. We pulled an anecdote from one of her favorite movies, The Devil Wears Prada. [11:52]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Tom Ruwitch: And in that movie, the boss, the magazine owner, is a horrible delegator, and all sorts of bad things happen as a result. I’m sorry?
Nancy Calabrese: Right. It was just horrible, period. I said she was just horrible, period.
Tom Ruwitch: She was horrible, period, right? But once you know the promise and the lesson that you want to deliver, finding anecdotes becomes pretty easy. You can draw them from your slice of life. You can draw them from a client experience. You can draw them from movies or books or literature or the news. We teach our clients and walk them through how to use AI to help find anecdotes that deliver, that can serve as a fable for a given promise and lesson. So that’s the whole thing. You asked how long does it take? Ultimately, it takes some advance work, some planning, some story discovery, and once you’ve gone through the process of story discovery, you have all the building blocks that you need to create and assemble stories. There’s a great quote that I love to use from a guy named Eugene Schwartz. Eugene Schwartz was one of the most prolific and successful copywriters of the mid to late 20th century. And Eugene Schwartz never suffered from writer’s block. And one of the things Eugene Schwartz said is that copy is not written, copy is assembled. And what he meant by that is, you know, I don’t just sit in front of a blank notepad. He was writing copy before he was sitting at a computer. I don’t sit in front of a blank notepad and then just let the juices flow. I gather building blocks and assemble it. And assembling content, assembling stories is what this is all about. It’s so much easier to do than to just sit in front of a blank screen and hope. And it’s so much more effective than pressing the easy button on AI and thinking that you’re going to generate copy that resonates with your prospects. You must do the discovery part yourself, sometimes with the help of AI, but you have to write in your own voice, produce videos in your own voice, and tell stories that are drawn from what you discover about your prospects and your clients. [14:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Huh. I mean, how do you come up with content ideas?
Tom Ruwitch: Well, again, the example that I shared with this business coach, it started by me talking to her, okay, here’s this lesson that you share. Tell me why you teach people to delegate. This could be applied to anybody who’s in the coaching or the consulting business. Why is it so important that somebody understand the difference between a Roth IRA and a traditional IRA. And if you dig into it and approach it with empathy and think, all right, well, what is it that my prospects and clients are feeling? Well, they’re losing sleep at night over this. The business owner is feeling frustrated. It is sick of feeling like he’s stuck in his business. Okay, now we’re getting at the promise, okay? [15:27]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Tom Ruwitch: Once you have the promise and the lesson, the conversation I had with the business coach was, well, give me an example of a person you know who successfully used the lesson that you teach, delegation, to experience that sense of relief and escaping and getting away. Oh, I have a great story, Tom. The story she tells me. Here’s a story of a business owner I worked with. So we can draw
success stories from our clients. We can draw from experiences that we’ve had before. We can draw from things that we’ve read or seen in books or literature or television or movies or whatever the case may be. And sometimes if we frame it properly, we can ask AI to help us come up with some of those ideas for the anecdotes. Sometimes the anecdotes just slap us in the face. We run into something interesting that happened and we say to ourselves, oh you know what? That would make a great story about lesson X and promise Y. [16:39]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow, huh. So, what would you say is the most important skill or quality someone needs to be an effective business storyteller?
Tom Ruwitch: I would say that listening and empathy are probably the most important qualities because what it’s about not just tell, tell. This is what I know and I’m going to tell you everything I know. That’s not what it’s about. What it’s about is hearing and watching and empathizing and understanding what is it that my prospects and clients are feeling and how is it that I can transform them from a feeling of, you know, one feeling to another, from a feeling of frustration to relief, from a feeling of fright to courage, from a feeling of stuck to free. It’s almost always about emotional transformation. Even in business to consumer products, it’s that way. But certainly, in business to business that it’s almost always an emotional transformation and understanding and paying attention to the feelings of your prospects and clients and using that as the basis to assemble stories is what it’s all about. [18:06]
Nancy Calabrese: You know, do you ever come across people, businesspeople, that just don’t want to hear stories? And if so, how do you respond?
Tom Ruwitch: Well, I think that there are businesspeople who think that somehow storytelling is not professional, or it’s beneath them, and that, no, I’m going to write a 1500-word white paper, or I must be serious. And my response is that storytelling in and of itself is not a frivolous activity. There are a lot of frivolous, meaningless silly stories that are being dished out. You know, storytelling is a big buzzword right now in marketing and online. And so, there are a lot of people who just think, oh, I’m going to tell a funny story for stories sake, and that’s going to be great. Well, no, it’s not great unless the prospect or the client can see themselves and unless there is lesson and meaning in that story. But those who believe that I don’t like stories, or I will be considered something less than professional if I tell stories, I think are missing the point of what a good story can do. As human beings, we are naturally drawn to stories and to storytellers. There are all sorts of data to show that when information is delivered via story, we’re much more likely to retain it. We’re much more likely to trust the person who delivered the information. And we’re much more likely to act on the call to action. So, you know, anyone who feels like, oh, it’s beneath me or I don’t like stories, or my audience won’t like stories, when done properly, stories sell. [20:09]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Huh. Hey, who doesn’t like the movies? They’re all stories, right? I can’t believe our time is up. This is really fascinating. Tom, last question. What is the one takeaway you want my audience to have?
Tom Ruwitch: That’s right. Yeah. I think the one takeaway would be to understand that you don’t have to be some kind of creative genius, a unicorn, to produce valuable stories. If you can learn the framework and apply a methodical system to this work, anyone can great captivating profit generating stories.
Nancy Calabrese: I love it. So how can my people find you?
Tom Ruwitch: They can find me on stor On the site you can sign up for email where I practice what I preach and you’ll see what good storytelling is all about. You can connect with me on LinkedIn. I assume you’ll put that in the show notes, Nancy. So you can look for me on LinkedIn. You can get free resources on the website. But yeah, just going to stor or emailing me directly. I’m one of those people, I don’t dole out emails to some virtual assistant who will give you a stock reply. If you email me and tell me that you heard me on Nancy’s podcast, I will absolutely reply. I’ll answer your questions. I’ll be happy to engage with you. And that email, I told you to email me. I didn’t give the address. Tom.
Nancy Calabrese: Awesome. What’s your email? Yeah. Well, I’m going to go ahead and turn it over to you.
Tom Ruwitch: Tom, T-O-M at stor
Nancy Calabrese: All right, guys, you heard it. You heard it from the expert. So let’s up our game, everyone, and do a better job in storytelling. I think what you do, Tom, is fascinating, and I really appreciate you spending time with us today. So until we speak again, good people out there, make sure you start working on that story and reach out to Tom to get his assistance. We’ll see you next time.
by Nancy Calabrese | Mar 28, 2024 | Podcast
About Umar Hameed: Umar Hameed aka Mr. Breakthrough is the CEO of No Limits Selling, a professional training and coaching company that specializes in improving the sales performance of realtors and other sales professionals. They use the latest insights from neuroscience and NLP to help realtors break through their limitations and perform at a higher level. Umar is a keynote speaker, an author, and a Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) performance coach. Umar distinguishes himself from other consultants and trainers with his extensive track record and diverse skill set. With over 25 years of experience as a successful business and sales consultant, coupled with more than 13 years of expertise in utilizing Neuroscience, NLP, and Hypnosis to effect behavioral changes, Umar brings a unique perspective to his work. Renowned as a keynote speaker at conferences held in 14 countries, he shares his insights and knowledge with audiences worldwide. Additionally, Umar is an accomplished author, having penned three books, including the acclaimed “Unleash Your Crazy Sexy Brain!”. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Umar.
In this episode, Nancy and Umar discuss the following:
- Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) and its role in sales training
- The concept of mindset and its significance in sales success
- The reasons why some salespeople fail to reach their potential
- The importance of discovering one’s authentic self in sales
- The role of fear and childhood experiences in shaping behavior
- The use of hypnosis to overcome mental barriers in sales
- Strategies for building a resilient sales mindset
Key Takeaways:
- What NLP is about and how to use your mindset differently.
- The reason most salespeople don’t reach their potential is they don’t ascertain or discover their true selves.
- Our conscious mind says: “No, we don’t want to do that, that’s scary”. And the unconscious mind is like: “I can do anything”!
- Look at people, especially the one that drives you crazy, and learn and utilize that to become better and thank them for it.
“ Mindset is very much how we see the world because there is no such thing as reality. So how do we get that perception? It’s from our life experiences, and how we see the world. So, let’s say, Nancy, for example, you thought that everybody that interacts with you wants to work with you. Let’s say that was your belief. Let’s say it was a lie, but if you really believed it, you’re going to show up in a way that would be expectant of people to want to interact with you. And you know what? People would start doing that because you show up in that way. And if I went into the same meeting and my belief was nobody wants to do business with me, or we’re too small a company, then of course, people wouldn’t ask and I’d answer questions in a stumbling, bumbling way, not on purpose, but at an unconscious level. So yeah, mindset is how we perceive the world and the meanings we make out of it. And so, the sales mindset is the same, right? It’s how we perceive the world. And one of the elements you’ll be shocked to hear, Nancy, is our beliefs around money have a huge impact on how well we do in sales.” – UMAR
“Number one, you know who you are, and you know what you want so you get clarity on what you want to achieve in your sales career. Number two is you get confidence, like a massive amount of confidence that allows you, because your clients are going to borrow your confidence in your product and in yourself to go, I should make this decision. Then you need grit, so you do not give up. That allows you to keep on going, so when the person says no, three times in a row, you still handle the objection. You’re not trying to be pushy and force them, but you also don’t want them to miss out. And the last component is passion, which is more contagious than COVID. And if you can know your authentic self, you’ve got those four elements, clarity, confidence, grit, and passion. That’s how you reach your potential. And that’s what we teach, how to change your mindset. So, you figure that stuff out and it doubles your sales, not because we teach you any new techniques, is because you use the techniques you already know in a bolder, purposeful way. And I’m going to preach here just for a second, Nancy, that whatever you believe, let’s label it God. You will put here on earth to shine. And oftentimes when we’re babies, we shine so brightly. And then when life’s experiences, we get a sense of I’m not good enough, people don’t like me. And then we pull our punches, and we start living a smaller life. And that’s not why you were put here. The reason you need to shine, Nancy, is because there are people in your life, your colleagues, your family, your community, that once they see you shine, it permits them to do so as well. So, when we live smaller lives, we’re injuring people that we love around us.” – UMAR
“Fear is the biological imperative that when we’re about to do something new, something scary, fear comes up. And the reason fear comes up is not to stop you. When you’re in the mode of fear, your reaction time is the fastest. You are stronger. You don’t feel pain when you get injured. It’s all the things that you need to be successful. But in our lives, we’ve been trained when fear comes up, and go in the opposite direction. Don’t do that scary thing. Biology is giving us the tools we need to go do it.” – UMAR
Connect with Umar Hameed:
Try Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/
Connect with Nancy Calabrese:
Voiceover: You’re listening to The Conversational Selling Podcast with Nancy Calabrese.
Nancy Calabrese: Hi, it’s Nancy Calabrese, and it’s time again for Conversational selling – the podcast where sales leaders and business experts share what’s going on in sales and marketing today and it always starts with the human conversation. Today we’re speaking with Umar Hameed, CEO of No Limits Selling, a professional training and coaching company that specializes in improving the sales performance of realtors and other sales professionals. They use the latest neuroscience and neuro-linguistic programming insights to help sales reps break through their limitations and perform at a higher level. He is a keynote speaker at conferences in 14 countries and the author of three books, including Unleash Your Crazy Sexy Brain where he proves that when you take charge of your mindset, you can attack the world with unstoppable confidence. This is going to be a great conversation, Umar. Welcome to the show!
Umar Hameed: Hey Nancy, thanks for the invite. Yeah, I think it’s going to be an interesting conversation because ultimately at the end of the day, nothing happens till somebody sells something. And you can take that down all the way to a three-year-old that wants a cookie, trying to figure out which parent to go to and what’s the pitch I need to do to win this to closing a multi-billion-dollar deal. [1:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, yeah, that’s really cool. You know, I want to start with neuro-linguistic programming. I know it as NLP. Can you describe to the audience what that’s about?
Umar Hameed: So, NLP was developed in the 70s and is really an understanding what happens inside human beings at an unconscious level. So, we could look at someone that is amazing at closing sales. And when you ask them, how do you close a sale, they say, oh, that’s easy. You take this five-step process, and you will be able to close any sale you want. And we teach it to 100 salespeople. And only two of them are going to get similar results. Everybody else is going to get OK results. So, the question is, if the master is teaching us the step-by-step and not everybody’s getting it, there must be something happening at an unconscious level of the recipients of the training, and the master, what they’re doing, and what NLP does is it figures out, oh, this is what the master is doing. He’s making a picture of the outcome he wants in his head. He’s saying this to himself. So, we look at what’s happening underneath the hood of your brain. And then once we figure that out, we can teach you that process. And then suddenly, Nancy, you start closing at a much higher level because it’s about how to use your mindset in a different way. NLP decodes that and lets you replicate it. [3:01]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. So, speaking of mindset, what is the sales mindset?
Umar Hameed: So, define mindset first. Mindset is very much how we see the world because there is no such thing as reality because if, take this example, you’ve got 40 FBI agents in a room at a lecture, and somebody comes in and accosts the trainer and leaves. Then they ask these trained FBI agents who came in and even FBI agents will have a different view of reality. He was this doll, no. It was shorter, it was this, it was that. So, once we realize that there is no reality, it’s just our perception of it. So how do we get that perception? It’s from our life’s experiences, how we see the world. So, let’s say, Nancy, for example, you thought that everybody that interacts with you wants to work with you. Let’s say that was your belief. Let’s say it was a lie, but you really believed it, you’re going to show up in a way that would be expectant of people to want to interact with you. And you know what? People would start doing that because you show up in that way. And if I went into the same meeting and my belief was nobody wants to do business with me, or we’re too small a company, then of course, people wouldn’t ask and I’d answer questions in a stumbling, bumbling way, not on purpose, but at an unconscious level. So yeah, mindset is how we perceive the world. [4:36]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Umar Hameed: and the meanings we make out of it. And so, the sales mindset is the same, right? It’s how we perceive the world. And one of the elements you’ll be shocked to hear, Nancy, is our beliefs around money have a huge impact on how well we do in sales. Because if we think there’s not enough money and things are too expensive, and I try and sell you some coaching services, Nancy, and you go, I’m not sure I can pay that. I’d be more predisposed to give you a discount immediately because I think, oh, well, I’m charging too much. And so, if somebody had a belief that money is plentiful and I deliver awesome value and you said to work with me is $10,000 a month, you would say it with congruity. And I’d kind of go, holy cow, that Nancy knows what she’s doing. I better sign up with her. [5:28]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Right. Cool. And so why do so few salespeople reach their potential? What’s the issue there?
Umar Hameed: So, I think what’s going on is this, Nancy, I’ve been doing this since 2003. So, I’ve got a good install base of live experiences with people is that we have three faces, Nancy. There’s a face we show the outside world, and it could be a salesperson saying, I’m an amazing salesperson. And that is an illusion. Then we have something I call the delusion where the salesperson, this is who they think they are. And it could be, I showed the world I’m an amazing person, but inside it’s like, you’ve heard of the imposter syndrome. It’s almost a cliche, right? You could have a salesperson that really feels it. I’m not really that good. And there is a third space, which is the authentic self. And I think the reason most salespeople don’t reach their potential is they don’t ascertain or discover their true selves. Because when you discover your true self, something amazing happens. [6:38]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Umar Hameed: Number one, you know who you are, and you know what you want so you get clarity on what you want to achieve in your sales career. Number two is you get confidence, like a massive amount of confidence that allows you, because your clients are going to borrow your confidence in your product and in yourself to go, I should make this decision. Then you need grit, so you do not give up. That allows you to keep on going, so when the person says no, three times in a row, you still handle the objection. You’re not trying to be pushy and force them, but you also don’t want them to miss out. And the last component is passion, which is more contagious than COVID. And if you can know your authentic self, you’ve got those four elements, clarity, confidence, grit, and passion. That’s how you reach your potential. And that’s what we teach, how to change your mindset. So, you figure that stuff out and it doubles your sales, not because we teach you any new techniques, is that you use the techniques you already know in a bolder, purposeful way. And I’m going to preach here just for a second, Nancy, that, uh, whatever you believe, uh, let’s label it God. You will put here on earth to shine. And oftentimes when we’re babies, we shine so brightly. And then when life’s experiences, we get a sense of I’m not good enough, people don’t like me. And then we pull our punches, and we start living a smaller life. And that’s not why you were put here. The reason you need to shine, Nancy, is because there’s people in your life, your colleagues, your family, your community, that once they see you shine, it gives them permission to do so as well. So, when we live smaller lives, we’re injuring people that we love around us. [8:32]
Nancy Calabrese: Wow. How long does it take typically for somebody to, you know, change their mindset? Does it vary from person to person?
Umar Hameed: It varies. So, if you want to like deal with like say one issue, like within a month you can change that with the right guide. So, I’ll give you an example. Having a CEO, many CEOs have this, the need to be liked, because you know we’re human beings. And because of that need to be liked, they know what decision to make, but they hold off because they want to make sure no one gets their feelings hurt, or they think they’re a jerk, or they close a division. And changing something like that, you can do in 30 days consistently. Change that belief, it changes the behavior, and it allows the CEO to be a much better leader. And for those four things that I mentioned, clarity of purpose, confidence, grit, passion, 60 days, we’ve got a program in 60 days that you are going to get all those four things in space. It’s going to change your sales career, and it’s going to allow you to go out there and do phenomenal things. [9:43]
Nancy Calabrese: Well, amazing. But why do people keep making the same mistakes repeatedly?
Umar Hameed: So, I think there’s a couple of reasons for that. One reason is that they never learned a lesson from the event. So, humans are meaning making machines, and an event happens. So, let’s say the event happens is that we are working on this deal, we’re counting on it, our VP’s counting on it, more importantly, our spouse is counting on it, and at the last minute, the customer says, no, I’m not doing it. Now that can bum a salesperson out for an afternoon, a week, or the rest of the year. And so, what we do is the reason we don’t learn from those things is that when we hit failure, we want to move away from it. So, fear is like an interesting thing, right? Fear is the biological imperative that when we’re about to do something new, something scary, fear comes up. And the reason fear comes up is not to stop you. Nancy, when you’re in the mode of fear, your reaction time is the fastest. You are stronger. You don’t feel pain when you get injured. It’s all the things that you need to be successful. But in our lives, we’ve been trained when fear comes up, go in the opposite direction. Don’t do that scary thing. When…Biology is giving us the tools we need to go do it. So, it’s, you know, our childhoods. Basically, we can have the best parents in the world, but still, we could make meanings out of our childhood that allow us to live smaller lives. And you could have people that had the worst childhoods with trauma, and they come out of it like, I’ll show you. And so, it’s the meanings that we make that end up making the difference. And when you have more grit, more confidence, more passion, when things that go awry, the meanings we make are, I can overcome that easily. And when we don’t have that, then it’s like, oh, people figured out that, you know, I’m no good, or our offer isn’t that good. And can I give you a real-life example of one of these? [12:05]
Nancy Calabrese: Oh sure, yeah.
Umar Hameed: So, I was working with a company in Silicon Valley and the VP of Worldwide Sales, it said Umar, are my salespeople sell on price and not on value? And we talk about selling on value all the time, I’m not sure what’s going on. So, I go and interview the salespeople and it turns out what’s going on is this, is that they’re competing, they’re like a $40 million company and they’re competing with Intel and Motorola, which are billion-dollar companies. And they don’t trust the other people in their company. So, the engineering folks have promised to release products on a certain day, this is going to be out by February 1. And now it’s June 1 and it’s still not out. So like, I can trust those guys. And sometimes they build the wrong product that customers don’t want. And so, what we ascertain was it’s a trust issue. It’s not a sales issue. We went in, we got all the departments together and changed the beliefs around each other and what they’re trying to achieve. [13:04]
Nancy Calabrese: Right.
Umar Hameed: And two months later, I get a call from the VP saying: “Umar, we’re not only selling one license, but we’re selling multiple licenses and not at a discounted price, full tilt”. When I talk to the salespeople, what’s going on? It’s like, in the past, we’d come back, and we’d tell the folks, the customer needs to change this. And the first thing we’d hear back from people in other departments is that we don’t do that, and I can’t do that. The biggest change has been this. We come back with those requests and the person goes, hmm, how can we make that happen? It’s just changed the entire culture of the company. So, I think that’s what we need to do is we need human beings to be stronger, to get those critical elements, clarity, confidence, grit, passion. And then when we do it for the company, this is where you get a company that has speed and speed is a strategic advantage. It allows them to move faster. And when they make a mistake, nobody gets blamed. They just go, what do we need to change to get different results? And they do it. And that is my wish for companies, for sales teams, for you and for me. [14:13]
Nancy Calabrese: Right, cool. I mean, I know that you’re a certified hypnotist. So how does this help your clients?
Umar Hameed: So, what happens is this, is that sometimes our conscious mind gets in the way of us understanding what’s going on. So, I’ll give you a client story, it’s probably the best one to explain it. I was working with the CEO and on this coaching day, he basically says, Umar, I think what I want to do is I want to quit and go somewhere else, cause the board just isn’t getting what I’m trying to achieve and they’re not supporting me at all. And I go, hmm. So, I could ask him questions around it and he’s already got his mind made up. So, this brave CEO was willing to be going to an altered state. So, I take him into an altered state. And I go, let’s just call him Jack. Jack, four of the board members are not getting what you’re trying to communicate. And it could be that you’re not clear enough or they’re not understanding. Whoever one of those board members are, have them sit right in front of you and figure out what’s going on. And when you know what the situation is, what needs to be fixed? Lift your finger so I know it’s done. God lifts up his finger. Then we go to the second, third, fourth board member. And I had no idea how many board members didn’t understand. And then I bring him up out of the trance and I go, what was that like? He goes, oh my God, I know the mistake I was making. They’re not understanding this, this, and this. And the very next day they had a board meeting, which he went to. Then he calls me up after the board meeting and says, Umar, the board is 100% committed on this new direction that we’re doing. And two years later, they sold the company, and he got a massive buyout. And the point I’m trying to make here is I didn’t tell him what the situation was. I just got his conscious mind to get out of the way so his unconscious mind could look at the situation with no bias and find the solutions. Because oftentimes we have the answers, it’s just our conscious mind gets in the way and says, no, we don’t want to do that, that’s scary. And the unconscious mind is like, I can do anything. [16:16]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Wow. How do you build a resilient sales mindset?
Umar Hameed: So, I think it’s that grit component is like so essential to doing that. And I’ve got a video that I just shot before this podcast that takes you through a five-step process on how to get more grit and it’s going to be published soon. So, if anybody wants to find out, just send me a direct message or an email. I’ll send it out to you on the house and it’ll show you how to be grittier. [16:52]
Nancy Calabrese: Right. Okay. Oh, that’s awesome. Hey, take advantage of that, everyone. And you know, we’re almost up with time. I want to let me ask you this. What do you believe in greatly that other people don’t necessarily agree with you on?
Umar Hameed: So, what I believe in wholeheartedly is this, is the people that are out there that vex us, the situations that are tragic or horrible, we turn away from those situations where the very messages we need to improve our lives are sitting there. So, for example, let’s say Nancy, you are someone that really, really irritates me. It’s like, oh, that fricking Nancy, I can’t stand her. Then when you ask yourself, what is the attribute that Nancy has that drives you crazy? And I would go that she is pushy. And then I asked myself, do I have a pushy gene in me? And the answer always is yes. The reason I don’t like it in Nancy because I have it in myself, and that’s a gift that I wouldn’t have gotten unless I looked at it that way. The reason there’s 8 billion people on this planet is that it’s hard to see other people, it’s hard, it’s easy to see other people and their flaws. It’s hard to see our own. So, there’s eight billion people that are there, is the people that irritate us, to figure out what’s their attribute and then go, oh my God, I have it too. Once you know you have it, you can minimize it. And the reverse is true. So, let’s say, Nancy, what I love about Nancy is that she is such a caring person. And the only reason I would admire it is that I’ve got some element of that myself. And I go, oh yeah, I do have caring but not as much as Nancy, then how do I amp up my caring? And so, people are a gift. So, look at people, especially the one that drives you crazy or situations that drive you crazy, and learn and utilize that to become better and thank them for it. [18:56]
Nancy Calabrese: That’s awesome. So how, how can my people find you?
Umar Hameed: The easiest way to find me is to go to my website at No Limits, that’s within an S, selling.com, or look up incredibly handsome dude on LinkedIn. Okay, you won’t find me there. Put in Umar Hameed, then you’ll find me.
Nancy Calabrese: Yeah, you know, you are pretty good looking folks. You can’t see him, so check him out on LinkedIn. A huge thank you for sharing your expertise with all of us today. Umar, you’re a lot of fun. Everyone out there, take advantage of this gentleman’s, I want to say wisdom and humor. Humor is a big part of your life, isn’t it, Umar?
Umar Hameed: It is such a gift, isn’t it, in terms of just, we’re going to laugh at whatever tragedy happened, eventually want to laugh now, learn the lesson, laugh now and move on. [19:50]
Nancy Calabrese: Yep, I totally agree with you. So great conversation, folks. Reach out to Umar and make it an awesome sales day. [19:59]
